Microsoft's 13 Worst Missteps Of All Time

I'm absolutely amazed that no one remembers the debacle that was 'Doublespace'. Files disappearing caused immense headaches for those of us who had to fix the problem.
 
While the Zune was good (I bought one for my parents) MS did everything in their power to copy the bad aspects of iTunes. The Zune Store was horrible. It wasn't very compatible with certain versions of Windows itself (probably intentionally).

The Zune would have been a hit if MS wasn't trying to smother the platform by keeping it so closed.

While we are at it, there's one thing that they don't mention. MS in relation to Nokia and Windows Mobile 7 / 8. They do mention Windows Mobile but they don't tell you how MS got down to 3.9% market share. It was WM 7 and now 8 which has done that.
 
Windows ME should have been on that list, that OS was nothing but a POS. Don't surprised that Windows 8 made it on the list.
 
heatlesssun said:
So you're saying there will no more Windows 8 tablets in the wild at the end of 2013 than there were at the 2012 and that the growth rate won't be higher than laptops and desktops?
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
I could see tablets as a whole doing this, but not Microsoft tablets and not at the rate they have been selling.
 
Red Falcon said:
omg, you wish. :rolleyes:
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Well, I have been using computers long enough and I remember lugging my 30 pound Compaq portable computer ( http://oldcomputers.net/compaqi.html ) to Japan and thinking ... "you know these heavy under powered mobile computers will never catch on because a desktop is just way better" ... and guess what, they got smaller and more powerful and they did catch on ... tablets will likely do the same thing :cool:
 
heatlesssun said:
So you're saying there will no more Windows 8 tablets in the wild at the end of 2013 than there were at the 2012 and that the growth rate won't be higher than laptops and desktops?
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Tablets will be higher than desktops at some point. It's a little bit iffy if the same will be said with regards to laptops. But Windows 8 Tablets being higher than desktops or laptops? Not on your life. The one thing that Microsft hasn't realized is that regular Joe Schmo people in general HATE Microsoft and generally Windows too. Yet they keep plastering that logo on every device they wish to sell.

Consumers have been given a choice over the last year and so far Apple and Android is what they prefer. When it comes to phones? It's better but barely. MS still has single-digit marketshare like around 2%.
 
kbrickley said:
Well, I have been using computers long enough and I remember lugging my 30 pound Compaq portable computer ( http://oldcomputers.net/compaqi.html ) to Japan and thinking ... "you know these heavy under powered mobile computers will never catch on because a desktop is just way better" ... and guess what, they got smaller and more powerful and they did catch on ... tablets will likely do the same thing :cool:
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I still have a Compaq Portable II, good times.

As for tablets catching on, I fully agree, they already have.
As for Microsoft tablets overtaking the desktop and laptop markets, that one is laughable.
 
Red Falcon said:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
I could see tablets as a whole doing this, but not Microsoft tablets and not at the rate they have been selling.
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So according to you there will be fewer Windows 8 tablets at the end of this year than at the end of last year. I think most people would consider that unfounded pessimism.
 
Red Falcon said:
As for Microsoft tablets overtaking the desktop and laptop markets, that one is laughable.
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I never said anything about Windows 8 tablets overtaking laptops and desktops, only that there will be more and more of them and that they will grow at higher rates than laptops and desktops.
 
heatlesssun said:
So according to you there will be fewer Windows 8 tablets at the end of this year than at the end of last year.
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Face it, people don't like Windows 8.
No matter what PR twist you put on it, it's still a work in progress, at absolute best.

Individuals want iPads and Droid tablets that are faster, imo do more, and can actually change or alter the GUIs.
Microsoft (Windows 8) tablets are expensive, have limited applications without a keyboard and mouse, and are virus and malware prone.

Almost every single person I talk to prefers iPads and Droid tablets over Windows 8 tablets, because they just 'work' without going through a huge headache.
While I agree with them, I did find it shocking that not one of them desired a Windows 8 tablet at all.

I think most people would consider that unfounded pessimism.
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I think most people would call that 'reality', something you have apparently yet to experience. :rolleyes:
 
heatlesssun said:
I never said anything about Windows 8 tablets overtaking laptops and desktops, only that there will be more and more of them and that they will grow at higher rates than laptops and desktops.
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Oh excuse me, the "growth rate".
Once again, who fucking cares?!

Don't get angry when people make fun of you for working at Microsoft.
I've listened to marketing and PR execs who don't talk as much as you do about their precious products. :eek:
 
Red Falcon said:
Oh excuse me, the "growth rate".
Once again, who fucking cares?!

Don't get angry when people make fun of you for working at Microsoft.
I've listened to marketing and PR execs who don't talk as much as you do about their precious products. :eek:
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There will be more people using Windows 8 tablets at the end of 2013 than at the end of 2012. How is that a PR statement? And it has nothing to do with anger but what issues it could cause me or anyone else. No company cares much for people that represent themselves as employees or spokespersons and it can cause a lot of trouble. If you don't understand this then I don't know what else to say other than I have no desire to get harassed by Microsoft or anyone else due to other people's incorrect and bogus statements.

I'm not selling anything, promoting anything and only offering my opinions and experience like anyone else. You constantly bash Windows and Microsoft and I never accuse you of working for Google or Apple or whomever. Because you're not selling anything and your employment has nothing to do with these discussions.

If people don't like Windows 8 then they don't like Windows 8, there are alternatives.
 
heatlesssun said:
There will be more people using Windows 8 tablets at the end of 2013 than at the end of 2012. How is that a PR statement? And it has nothing to do with anger but what issues it could cause me or anyone else. No company cares much for people that represent themselves as employees or spokespersons and it can cause a lot of trouble. If you don't understand this then I don't know what else to say other than I have no desire to get harassed by Microsoft or anyone else due to other people's incorrect and bogus statements.

I'm not selling anything, promoting anything and only offering my opinions and experience like anyone else. You constantly bash Windows and Microsoft and I never accuse you of working for Google or Apple or whomever. Because you're not selling anything and your employment has nothing to do with these discussions.

If people don't like Windows 8 then they don't like Windows 8, there are alternatives.
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You still don't get it.
You constantly try to sell people on Microsoft products and Windows 8.

I've never seen anyone else on this forum act like you do, with the exception of the occasional Apple fanatic.
For Microsoft though... what???


I'm not selling anything, promoting anything and only offering my opinions and experience like anyone else.
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You don't "offer", you shove it down our throats again and again.
Even when people agree with you, but vary slightly on their opinion compared to yours, you treat them like garbage or ignore them outright.

There is no point in even trying to be nice or decent to you at this point, as you have treated everyone who has done with complete disrespect and a bad attitude.
Hell yes we are contending your "opinions and experience" because they never jive with anyone else's experiences of these exact same products, and 90% are made-up bullshit; que the Atom processor argument in the Razor Tablet thread.

Because so, you go on to declare that they "must not be using the product correctly" or couldn't figure out some obscure function to make it work the way it does for you.
You don't work for Microsoft, so why do you defend their products so damn much???

It makes no sense, even fanboys and the most extreme Apple-fanatics have limits to what they can admit to before it is obviously falsified information.
Even when there is actually a legitimate problem with one Microsoft's products, you will go out of your way to ensure that everyone doesn't believe it and that the "reviewer must have been doing something wrong".

Man, you've got some serious mental issues.
 
I honestly feel that some particular users should be banned from this forum permanently. If I am one of those then be it. This fanboyism is getting out of hand and essentially is hurting Hard Forums. No wonder a lot of old timers are no longer around, its devolved into an XBOX environment.
 
Wrench00 said:
I honestly feel that some particular users should be banned from this forum permanently. If I am one of those then be it. This fanboyism is getting out of hand and essentially is hurting Hard Forums. No wonder a lot of old timers are no longer around, its devolved into an XBOX environment.
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I'm amazed these threads go as long as they do without being locked.
When I first joined, this crap wouldn't have gone beyond page 2.

But then again, when I joined, heatlesssun was actually a cool guy who helped others and didn't act like a Microsoft PR drone.
Yes, I do remember the days of heatlesssun pre-Windows 8 and pre-Surface, he actually had a lot of good things to say.

The hell happened to him?
 
Red Falcon said:
The hell happened to him?
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Wrench00 said:
I honestly feel that some particular users should be banned from this forum permanently. If I am one of those then be it. This fanboyism is getting out of hand and essentially is hurting Hard Forums. No wonder a lot of old timers are no longer around, its devolved into an XBOX environment.
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I totally agree with you Wrench. A few users from both side of the fence need a "time out' period i think.
This topic started out nice, I learned about some stuff I never knew about, then it turned into a shit feast argument involving people from both side as it does in every thread about MS or Windows 8.
 
heatlesssun said:
There will be more people using Windows 8 tablets at the end of 2013 than at the end of 2012. How is that a PR statement? And it has nothing to do with anger but what issues it could cause me or anyone else. No company cares much for people that represent themselves as employees or spokespersons and it can cause a lot of trouble. If you don't understand this then I don't know what else to say other than I have no desire to get harassed by Microsoft or anyone else due to other people's incorrect and bogus statements.
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They need to light a fire under Windows 8 pro. I'm convinced it's the only way to get going. I can't see any reason to get Windows RT over an Android tablet with a keyboard (like an Asus transformer) or *shudder* an iPad. Even for a business.

I mean, come on. No Outlook? No joining a domain? It's like they didn't even try.

Windows 8 pro stands a chance. But they need to get it down to a price level comparable to an expensive iPad for it to stand a chance. Not $900+.
 
GreenMonkey said:
They need to light a fire under Windows 8 pro. I'm convinced it's the only way to get going. I can't see any reason to get Windows RT over an Android tablet with a keyboard (like an Asus transformer) or *shudder* an iPad. Even for a business.

I mean, come on. No Outlook? No joining a domain? It's like they didn't even try.

Windows 8 pro stands a chance. But they need to get it down to a price level comparable to an expensive iPad for it to stand a chance. Not $900+.
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I agree, I think Windows 8 tablets have a better chance then RT for now, at least until RT devices get better and cheaper. And yes Windows 8 devices need to get cheaper but that's not going to be the case with Core based devices, those CPUs are simply to expensive.

The sweet spot for Windows 8 tablets will be Atom based. Clover Trail devices are still on the expensive side though and they are underpowered for a number of tasks. I do think Haswell and Bay Trail devices could finally get price, battery life and performance issues resolved for x86 tablets. If not, both Microsoft and Intel are in for some rough times.

Intel has almost much as much riding on Windows 8 tablets as Microsoft. Windows 8 will never make into the tablet world with some engineering magic from Intel.
 
heatlesssun said:
Clover Trail devices are still on the expensive side though and they are underpowered for a number of tasks. I do think Haswell and Bay Trail devices could finally get price, battery life and performance issues resolved for x86 tablets. If not, both Microsoft and Intel are in for some rough times.
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Well hopefully Atom processors do get a bump in performance.
Honestly, I've been waiting for years for a good Atom processor to come along so I can do just that.

While battery life and heat output have definitely improved, the performance has been nearly stagnant since it's initial release nearly 5 years ago.
You're right, Intel needs to improve this processor, otherwise Microsoft will definitely feel the hurt on the tablet front.
 
heatlesssun said:
I agree, I think Windows 8 tablets have a better chance then RT for now, at least until RT devices get better and cheaper. And yes Windows 8 devices need to get cheaper but that's not going to be the case with Core based devices, those CPUs are simply to expensive.

The sweet spot for Windows 8 tablets will be Atom based. Clover Trail devices are still on the expensive side though and they are underpowered for a number of tasks. I do think Haswell and Bay Trail devices could finally get price, battery life and performance issues resolved for x86 tablets. If not, both Microsoft and Intel are in for some rough times.

Intel has almost much as much riding on Windows 8 tablets as Microsoft. Windows 8 will never make into the tablet world with some engineering magic from Intel.
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You neither know Intel nor Microsoft.

The Bay Trail devices aren't coming until 2014, so that's a full year of shitty performance that's going to stick around on the Atom side.

But what about Haswell? Well, that's actually more expensive than Ivy Bridge. And what about that 8W TDP? It's actually an SDP and not a TDP, which is essentially a 13W TDP part that's being throttled back to 8W meaning even more restrictive binning and higher prices for less performance. Yes, Intel had to create a new metric so that their "tablet processors" can fit into tablets, and that's without the chipset which adds another 3-5W.

I'm so eager I can barely contain myself!

If you really think Intel is going to lower prices to counter the ARM threat then you're in for a rude awakening. Here's a hint: the day Intel competes with ARM on price is the day Intel files for bankruptcy.

This is what 2012 looked like for them, and that was with the "boost" of a Win8 release. Faced with decreasing sales, Intel instead opted to let fabs idle rather than decrease prices. With no new products on the low end and a high priced Haswell, 2013 isn't looking good for Wintel. I think AMD might be the one you should be looking at for reasonably priced x86 tablets with good processing power, but don't expect ARM prices. This isn't helping them either
 
pelo said:
The Bay Trail devices aren't coming until 2014, so that's a full year of shitty performance that's going to stick around on the Atom side.
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Intel said at CES that there would be Bay Trail devices on sale in time for the holidays this year. Of course that's a ways out and maybe they won't make that date but I would imagine that don't want to miss prime buying season.

pelo said:
But what about Haswell? Well, that's actually more expensive than Ivy Bridge. And what about that 8W TDP? It's actually an SDP and not a TDP, which is essentially a 13W TDP part that's being throttled back to 8W meaning even more restrictive binning and higher prices for less performance. Yes, Intel had to create a new metric so that their "tablet processors" can fit into tablets, and that's without the chipset which adds another 3-5W.
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If Haswell is the replacement for Ivy the prices will probably match that of Ivy as is usually the practice of Intel. Maybe you're right that Intel will charge more for Haswell but I've not seen anything about that.

pelo said:
I'm so eager I can barely contain myself!

If you really think Intel is going to lower prices to counter the ARM threat then you're in for a rude awakening. Here's a hint: the day Intel competes with ARM on price is the day Intel files for bankruptcy.
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Didn't Intel match the price of Clover Trail to that of ARM CPUs? Clover Trail chips I think are among the cheapest things that Intel has ever made. This price of Clover Trail isn't disclosed by Intel publicly I believe but Intel has made the point the hardware BOM of a Windows 8 Clover Trail tablet should be right in line with a Tegra or Snapdraggon tablet.
 
heatlesssun said:
Intel said at CES that there would be Bay Trail devices on sale in time for the holidays this year. Of course that's a ways out and maybe they won't make that date but I would imagine that don't want to miss prime buying season.
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They're probably going to do their damndest to make it into the end of the year, but production for these chips should then start in Q2 with products being designed and tested by Q3. "We'll have chips" is a lot different than "we'll have products." Limited quantity and selection by Q4 just like we saw this year is more likely.

heatlesssun said:
If Haswell is the replacement for Ivy the prices will probably match that of Ivy as is usually the practice of Intel. Maybe you're right that Intel will charge more for Haswell but I've not seen anything about that.
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Matching the price won't do here. The Surface Pro is already relegated to the niche extreme end of the market by price, by keeping that price steady they wouldn't be doing themselves any favors. Unfortunately for MS, that's how Intel operates. And, no, it isn't even the usual practice of Intel. Ivy, despite being on 22nm and Intel pushing Sandy Bridge towards EOL, is still and was more expensive than Sandy Bridge.

heatlesssun said:
Didn't Intel match the price of Clover Trail to that of ARM CPUs? Clover Trail chips I think are among the cheapest things that Intel has ever made. This price of Clover Trail isn't disclosed by Intel publicly I believe but Intel has made the point the hardware BOM of a Windows 8 Clover Trail tablet should be right in line with a Tegra or Snapdraggon tablet.
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Does a Clover Trail SoC cost $15? I *highly* doubt it. Intel said they'd be "competitive," not price match ARM SoCs. Given that they're not decreasing prices on their other SKUs despite the poor sales figures, you can say I'm skeptical until shown proof.
 
pelo said:
Matching the price won't do here. The Surface Pro is already relegated to the niche extreme end of the market by price, by keeping that price steady they wouldn't be doing themselves any favors. Unfortunately for MS, that's how Intel operates. And, no, it isn't even the usual practice of Intel. Ivy, despite being on 22nm and Intel pushing Sandy Bridge towards EOL, is still and was more expensive than Sandy Bridge.
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I've never seen anyone say that Core tablets would ever be anything than niche, they aren't exactly new, thus the point of Atom SoCs.

pelo said:
Does a Clover Trail SoC cost $15? I *highly* doubt it. Intel said they'd be "competitive," not price match ARM SoCs. Given that they're not decreasing prices on their other SKUs despite the poor sales figures, you can say I'm skeptical until shown proof.
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Since the price of Clover Trail isn't public I have no idea what they cost.
 
heatlesssun said:
I've never seen anyone say that Core tablets would ever be anything than niche, they aren't exactly new, thus the point of Atom SoCs.
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You suffer from short term memory loss.

heatlesssun said:
If Haswell is the replacement for Ivy the prices will probably match that of Ivy as is usually the practice of Intel.
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No, proven by the above.

heatlesssun said:
Maybe you're right that Intel will charge more for Haswell but I've not seen anything about that.
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No, but that's because you don't know the usual practice of Intel is. They don't charge less or equal for new products, they charge more. Prices stagnate for months and years, with only small decreases until the next chip is out.

So, no, you're wrong. You don't know what the usual practice of Intel is nor do you even understand the current pricing.
 
heatlesssun said:
Please show where I've said that a $900+ tablet would be anything but niche.



Even desktop CPUs?
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Yes, even desktop CPUs.

http://ark.intel.com/products/52210/Intel-Core-i5-2500K-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_70-GHz
http://ark.intel.com/products/65520/Intel-Core-i5-3570K-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz

And I was referring to the short term memory loss about Intel's "usual" practice with respect to pricing and me proving you wrong. You ignored it and went straight to the part about being relegated to a niche product instead of offering a rebuttal. Selective memory or memory loss, you take your pick. Intel's "usual" pricing means a ~$20 deduction in about a year's time. Not exactly making a $900 tablet more affordable, is it?
 
pelo said:
Yes, even desktop CPUs.

http://ark.intel.com/products/52210/Intel-Core-i5-2500K-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_70-GHz
http://ark.intel.com/products/65520/Intel-Core-i5-3570K-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz
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Fair enough. I would think that OEMs are paying these prices, I don't know what this part cost are launch, they are cheaper in retail now than the Intel spec sheet price.

pelo said:
And I was referring to the short term memory loss about Intel's "usual" practice with respect to pricing and me proving you wrong. You ignored it and went straight to the part about being relegated to a niche product instead of offering a rebuttal. Selective memory or memory loss, you take your pick. Intel's "usual" pricing means a ~$20 deduction in about a year's time. Not exactly making a $900 tablet more affordable, is it?
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Huh? Look at your response in post #110 again. Maybe you didn't quote it the way you thought.
 
heatlesssun said:
I meant OEMs AREN'T paying these prices.
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They don't receive massive discounts. Often times the MSRP is quite close to the OEM tray price, maybe a 20% discount. That's how Intel keeps its gross margins at ~60%.

The problem for MS is that the Intel chips aren't priced competitively. In order for them to be more attractive, the i5 tablets should be in the ~$600 range, but given that ~$200 goes to the CPU alone - and that's before you add in the chipset and everything else - it becomes clear that that price isn't going to be attained unless there's a truly drastic drop in prices across the board. That's just not going to happen. The Atom-powered tablets are going to sit at the $500-$600 range (still too expensive) while the Haswell/Ivy-based stuff will only be making Intel money.

The fact that they're having to bin for 13W TDP and 17W TDP parts means that it only adds to the cost (fewer chips per wafer). But that's what you get when you've got a comparatively bigger die that requires more power and consequently a higher price tag. Intel doesn't mind that it can only get an X amount of viable ULV chips per wafer since a high demand + lower supply (they even let fabs idle. I'm not bringing that up for no reason) means higher prices and more money in their own pockets.
 
I'm not ragging on Intel here, as this just makes business sense for them. They're still relying on a relatively stale PC market and they don't have compelling products that can compete at lower prices until 2014 so they've got to offset the cost of a declining PC market somehow. Given that they spend more on R&D than anyone else and need to in order to retain any sort of lead they've built, that means they've got to charge higher prices for their stuff.

That's at complete odds with what MS needs. MS needs, above all else, market penetration. Intel could care less for market penetration of Win8 unless they can make money doing it. So in some sense Intel is treating MS like MS has been treating their own OEMs :p
 
More of heatless not knowing what he's talking about:

“We started production of our next-generation micro-architecture product code-named Haswell, which we expect to qualify for sale this quarter. This production prior to qualification for sale resulted in an increase in [older-generation] inventory write-offs,” said Stacy Smith, chief financial officer of Intel, during quarterly conference call with financial analysts.
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http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di..._Next_Generation_Haswell_Microprocessors.html

So, not only did Intel refuse to drop prices significantly to spur sales, but they actually deemed that it probably wasn't even worth it and had to write off a number of chips. This is much like what happened to AMD with Llano over the summer when their stock price tanked. Poor demand and backed up inventory means you've got to clear it somehow. Mind you, that's with them letting fabs idle and an already decreased capacity.

Intel looks out for Intel, not Microsoft and not the OEMs. Microsoft also does the same. To expect anything but higher prices is being unrealistic.
 
pelo said:
More of heatless not knowing what he's talking about:
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Huh? You do know what a write off is and why that might be more advantageous to a company rather than selling something at a reduced price? You mixing accounting into this discussion now which is a totally new topic.
 
lol, I'm really enjoying someone else taking the heat-less sun on for a change. :D
 
heatlesssun said:
Huh? You do know what a write off is and why that might be more advantageous to a company rather than selling something at a reduced price? You mixing accounting into this discussion now which is a totally new topic.
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They've been backed up on inventory for more than a quarter and the ASP hasn't budged enough to make a dent in that with increase in sales. In fact, prices stayed the same while Win8 did nothing to spur on sales compared to the previous two quarters. So what happened? Write-offs, fabs ran idle, 14nm engineers went home and prices stayed roughly the same with gross margins only dipping a bit under their target 60%.

Apparently, at least according to heatless, accounting has nothing to do with chip prices. But what the fuck do I know, right?

Notice how you're completely out of your element as soon as the discussion is about something other than Win8. We've been through this before, though. As much as you know about Win8 - and you do know quite a bit - you know very little about anything else. So let's help you out a bit here: Chip prices will not drop and Intel will not charge less. Intel hasn't considerably reduced prices in over a decade and the last time they were pressed with competition they instead resorted to fishy tactics.

Intel worries about itself and its shareholders, not Microsoft.
 
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