Nenu
[H]ardened
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- Apr 28, 2007
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- 19,347
lol, thats why I suggested using AI to extract relevant data.
There be a lot of mud in them there waters!
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Microsoft Wants to Know How It Can Improve Windows 10 PC Gaming
- Thread starter Megalith
- Start date
There be a lot of mud in them there waters!
Two things, 1) we don't need another SKU, there's already like 2000 editions of Windows 10. 2) This gaming edition already exists, it's called Enterprise and doesn't have a lot of the unnecessary items, it's just locked behind a volume license requirement.
D4rkn3ss
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2010
- Messages
- 2,594
shove it up the ass, let it marinate in there, for a year or two.
A Little Teapot
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2016
- Messages
- 146
1. Stop pushing the Microsoft Store. It's not going to happen.
2. Fund some devs who want to make actual games, instead of barely concealed gambling simulators that require eight hours of fucking playtime before anything even remotely enjoyable happens.
3. BAN ALL MICROTRANSACTIONS. You should only ever have to pay for a product once.
2. Fund some devs who want to make actual games, instead of barely concealed gambling simulators that require eight hours of fucking playtime before anything even remotely enjoyable happens.
3. BAN ALL MICROTRANSACTIONS. You should only ever have to pay for a product once.
What privacy, it's already gone. At least I see it for what it is.
HAL_404
Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2018
- Messages
- 961
perfect
Regarding the two major Win 10 updates recently, I've seen a change in Mass Effect 2 where GPU core speed is now 700 MHz (even when I use EVGA Precision turbo) and fps is 45 or less and I'm using a GTX 1070 Ti
Also does the same for a few other games but Rise of the Tomb Raider runs at a GPU core of 1866 MHz and pinned at 60 fps
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Zarathustra[H]
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2000
- Messages
- 30,705
Get rid of the Xbox app and disable the overlay by default.
I have the same issue. Opening up NVCP and changing Power Management mode to Prefer Maximum Performance fixed this. The issue comes and goes with the default optimal power setting. This may be a different issue than yours though.perfect
Regarding the two major Win 10 updates recently, I've seen a change in Mass Effect 2 where GPU core speed is now 700 MHz (even when I use EVGA Precision turbo) and fps is 45 or less and I'm using a GTX 1070 Ti
Also does the same for a few other games but Rise of the Tomb Raider runs at a GPU core of 1866 MHz and pinned at 60 fps
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
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- Jul 26, 2013
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- 1,289
ericsmith881
n00b
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2019
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- 11
Perhaps because it's not nearly as widespread or onerous as you suggest? Just a thought.
I game and I have three kids who game in the house, mostly PC with a little console here and there. Nobody ever sees this "crippled latency" and "hogs resources" that you speak of. Again, while it might show up on a benchmark I doubt most mortals can spot the difference in regular gaming.
Nafensoriel
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2015
- Messages
- 229
Yes, you do. Its just been present for nearly a generation of people. The fact that you don't know that it is causing grief does not mean you are not seeing its effects.
When your game stutters? It is DWM is there triggering it long before hardware limits happen.
If you alt-tab and have issues? It's most certainly DWM.
When you complain about the games camera or target reticle being sluggish? That's enhanced by DWM(up to 5ms latency on input/delay).
When your game randomly crashes in a multimonitor setup? Almost certainly DWM.
This doesn't even go into the performance gut windows applies to any application in the background. Why don't YOU the USER notice it? Because the performance is already accounted for by the DEVELOPERS. It doesn't change the fact that its a performance hit that doesn't need to exist.
DWM is a legacy of windows trying to become android.
Avast Free AV has a "Do Not Disturb" mode that works well with games and win10.
This is old.
They enormously improved it's performance in a more recent patch. It's considerably faster now.
https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/...mizations-send-directx-12-performance-soaring
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
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- Jul 26, 2013
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- 1,289
looking at the results it seems DX11 is still better but the codebase got a multi-threaded support and then DX12+MT wins. Had this been a decent test then DX11+MT would have been shown (if it exists)
It doesn't, that's literally a major selling point of DX12.
This is DX12 being done exactly how it should, doing exactly what it's supposed to.
ericsmith881
n00b
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- Jan 16, 2019
- Messages
- 11
Perhaps everyone in my home is living a charmed life but game stutters aren't a thing. Neither are alt-tab issues. Sluggish cameras/reticules? Also not a thing. Random crashes? My kids have played Overwatch, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, Minecraft, etc. for hours straight and never complain about crashing. I monitor their systems remotely and I know what their stability is like.
Granted, this is all anecdotal from a small sample size, but if I've got four PC's (seven if you count the three laptops) in the house and NONE of them are exhibiting any of the above, I have to question your conclusion that DWM is somehow a nefarious pox on gamers. The desktops run the gamut from Core i5-2500K's with AMD 6970's to Core i7-4790K's with AMD RX580's. The laptops are Dell Inspiron's and one Latitude 5570 all with a mix of integrated graphics, nVidia, and one AMD GPU. It's a fairly diverse mix when you consider it although admittedly AMD's CPU's are missing. Chalk that up to Intel CPU dominance over the last few years. Prior to that I was a serious Athlon XP and Opteron fan. I'm seriously considering a Ryzen for my next build.
I suggest this may be a case of "confirmation bias" on your part. You want to blame Windows 10, therefore you see things wrong with it that aren't actually there or may have other causes. Or maybe I'm more strict with the configuration of said PC's than you. None of my kids have admin rights, they don't install any of their own software, all have Symantec Endpoint Protection, and I keep them free of miscellaneous clutter. I'm an IT Director and I manage my home PC's exactly like my corporate ones, with an iron hand.
Nafensoriel
Limp Gawd
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- Nov 23, 2015
- Messages
- 229
Since you are IT i will give a small example of what the problem is to better help you understand.
Picture a piece of network hardware that automatically took a large percentage of your possible performance off the top. It might still say "1gig switch" but in reality, the hardware could handle 1250 instead of 1000. It also limits 80% of that bandwidth to one port at a time even if that port is only using 10% of the total capacity.
This is what the management software effectively does.
In windows 7/vista it wasn't as bad because you could simply disable or bypass it. It's also known by "aero". In windows 10, everything is REQUIRED to go through its buffers. If you want to see a simple effect of it load two relatively performance light games then alt-tab to one. The other window will instantly get throttled even if the CPU could handle both with ease. If you happen to have two or three monitors with different refresh rates the throttling and total performance loss is disproportionally higher. This occurs with ANY secondary application opened even if its just a chrome tab.
In practical application, most of the time this throttling will appear to the user as a performance benefit and it is in fact sold as such by Microsoft. Windows 10 will force priorities anything in focus when all windows are not in full-screen mode. The issue is this isn't free. In this thread, the topic is what Microsoft could do to improve gaming performance in windows. DWM is the single greatest boat anchor to windows 10 for performance. Its utter removal would have the single greatest impact on performance due to the way the buffer works in the background.
The stuttering issue isn't notice because most people simply deal with it or don't even know they are dealing with it. It's like living with a 10ms monitor with crappy colour accuracy and contrast and never once using anything else. It's been a problem for so long people don't know it is a problem anymore. I'll even admit 5ms.. hell even 25ms input stuttering isn't going to be noticed by most people who play with the kind of furious button smashing your average gamer is going to be. It doesn't change the fact that it DOES exist and it IS quite absurd considering one thing is causing it. You can't even accurately test its full performance impact anymore because it's quite fully integrated since WDDM2.0 and impossible to bypass.
I like to use the quote from the movie "Anon" - an OK movie, but this one quote stood out to me. "It’s not that I have something to hide. I have nothing I want you to see". Take heed of Dekoth-E-'s thoughts - this is indeed a very dangerous position to take.
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
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Except this isn't unique to DX12. DX11+MT is a thing. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...erviews-direct3d-11-render-multi-thread-intro
If DX11 is beating DX12 in ST it isn't that hard to extrapolate that DX11-MT would therefore beat DX12-MT. They chose not todo DX11-MT so I fail to see how the statement "butbutbutDX12 is bettah" when DX11 appears to offer better performance, if performance is the primary need
Vermillion
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,201
To make Windows gaming "better":
1. Off Switch for Telemetry.
2. Give user FULL CONTROL of data that will be going out with Telemetry. I'm not against needing things like computer hardware listings and driver versions. Stuff like that is actually important to OS improvements and stability. The key however is explaining it well and giving the user the choice to participate or not.
3. Give up on Direct X. Move to a platform-agnostic model like Vulkan.
4. Stop turning the UI into a god awful touch friendly platform.
5. Don't force updates on people.
6. Move to two SKUs. Windows and Windows Enterprise. Stop fragmenting it all and leaving the majority of users (Home Users) without useful functionality. For example the new Application Sandbox technology is only Pro and Enterprise.
7. Fix the god awful update process. Sadly this one is probably not remotely possible because Windows underneath is such a shitshow.
8. Stop tying all functionality into the OS. Make it modular. If I don't want that stupid bitch Cortana then she shouldn't be on my system at all.
9. Fuck it...we all know MS isn't going to do any of the above to actually improve shit.
10. I'll stick with Linux.
1. Off Switch for Telemetry.
2. Give user FULL CONTROL of data that will be going out with Telemetry. I'm not against needing things like computer hardware listings and driver versions. Stuff like that is actually important to OS improvements and stability. The key however is explaining it well and giving the user the choice to participate or not.
3. Give up on Direct X. Move to a platform-agnostic model like Vulkan.
4. Stop turning the UI into a god awful touch friendly platform.
5. Don't force updates on people.
6. Move to two SKUs. Windows and Windows Enterprise. Stop fragmenting it all and leaving the majority of users (Home Users) without useful functionality. For example the new Application Sandbox technology is only Pro and Enterprise.
7. Fix the god awful update process. Sadly this one is probably not remotely possible because Windows underneath is such a shitshow.
8. Stop tying all functionality into the OS. Make it modular. If I don't want that stupid bitch Cortana then she shouldn't be on my system at all.
9. Fuck it...we all know MS isn't going to do any of the above to actually improve shit.
10. I'll stick with Linux.
Delicieuxz
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- May 11, 2016
- Messages
- 1,159
Privacy is a fundamental right because it is a fundamental human need for health and well-being. Rights are not just what are written in a legal document - what gets written in documents is meant to protect what is firstly acknowledged as existing before it is written in any document.
Also, the legal right to protection from unreasonable search and seizure is the right to privacy: https://www.priv.gc.ca/en/privacy-topics/your-privacy-rights/
M76
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 11,187
Stop trying to turn the PC into a tablet.
Let users decide when and what updates are installed.
Stop with bi-annual new versions that meddle with things that should not be meddled with.
Simple all-encompassing turn off switch for the windows store / cortana / telemetry
No ads.
And most important: do beta testing in-house, don't treat the users as guinea pigs.
Let users decide when and what updates are installed.
Stop with bi-annual new versions that meddle with things that should not be meddled with.
Simple all-encompassing turn off switch for the windows store / cortana / telemetry
No ads.
And most important: do beta testing in-house, don't treat the users as guinea pigs.
Nafensoriel
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2015
- Messages
- 229
DX12 is unilaterally better than DX11 in a capacity and capability point. What DX12 is terrible at is being easy to use. Its all or nothing with it and few are dumb enough to restrict themselves exclusively to Windows 10. If you invested the same budget in both DX12 vs DX11 its a rare moment when DX12 wins. DX12 with a higher budget and more time will surpass DX11 however.
Which is why Vulkan is superior. It's easier to code for, does everything DX12 does and more, and isn't restricted to one platform.
I should say it exists but borders on uselessness - sort of, since there's a few parts to it. Both vendors happily support concurrent creates. In some cases, you just throw data at function to create a given resource like a texture, and the driver magically farms it off to one of its worker threads. Note that this absolutely doesn't happen under DX12 / Vulkan. The driver will not do anything like that for you at all and has no qualms about you sabotaging performance.
Concurrent command lists is the problem. I don't think AMD supports it, and Nvidia says its driver supports it (my GTX 1080 reports support from the DX caps viewer), but it still kinda barely works. The DX runtime will emulate it where driver support doesn't exist and generally it just serializes and you get zero benefit with some added overhead.
Go look at the 3DMark API Overhead test. It's wholly synthetic and should be as big as win as humanly possible. Still scales like shit on both ends. It's a dead end feature.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11223/quick-look-vulkan-3dmark-api-overhead
Go look at a major codebase like UE4 and you will very much so find that they do not use DX11's command lists. Search CreateDeferredContext() / ExecuteCommandList() and you'll come up empty.
In DX12 / Vulkan, there is no immediate mode. Everything is command lists akin to DX11's deferred contexts except things actually work - provided that you, the developer, do a good job.
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