Microsoft Surface RT Pricing Starts At $499

I disagree about the Surface Pro. I think $1200 or less is an acceptable target. It's basically a full laptop in a tablet form factor.
I strongly urge you to do some research on Intel's Clovertrail platform and Cloverview. It offers better-than-Atom performance, not full-laptop performance.

If the top-end Surface Pro is more than $900, people are going to look at the $499 price point of the Surface RT and consider it a relative steal. Even $900 is really pushing the limit of what consumers are going to consider acceptable.
 
Had it been $399 without the cover keyboard thing, I'd be ordering one. 500 benji's is too rich for a niche device.

Yea, I have to agree with this. It is over priced by about a hundred bucks.

I'm going to wait for some reviews, some hands on time, and maybe a price break/sale before I grab one. My enthusiasm went down a couple notches. Not bad, but just more of a cost conscience consumer decision.
 
I strongly urge you to do some research on Intel's Clovertrail platform and Cloverview. It offers better-than-Atom performance, not full-laptop performance.

If the top-end Surface Pro is more than $900, people are going to look at the $499 price point of the Surface RT and consider it a relative steal. Even $900 is really pushing the limit of what consumers are going to consider acceptable.

They'll consider it a "relative steal"...as they're in the checkout line with their new iPad they're about to pay for.
 
Looks like MS with have two MAJOR flops in coming months: Windows 8 on desktop/laptop platform, and Tablet that's priced like an iPad but is NOT and iPad.... Shares will tumble, heads will roll... Guaran-fuckin-teed!!!
 
I am hoping to pick one up as a pilot for our sites. Some users just need the internet and email with the occasional SS or text doc and this could fit the bill.
 
I strongly urge you to do some research on Intel's Clovertrail platform and Cloverview. It offers better-than-Atom performance, not full-laptop performance.

If the top-end Surface Pro is more than $900, people are going to look at the $499 price point of the Surface RT and consider it a relative steal. Even $900 is really pushing the limit of what consumers are going to consider acceptable.

The Pro version of Surface comes with a Sandy/Ivy i5, although likely downclocked significantly in order to fit a tablet form factor. It also almost certainly has intake/exhaust fans as well. If you're looking for a true laptop-worthy chip, although more Ultrabook worthy insofar that it offers half the performance of a 35W equivalent laptop chip, you're should be looking at the Haswell-based tablets coming next year. Unlike Ivy and Sandy, which were designed for that 35W and 45W TDP threshold, Haswell was designed with Ultrabooks in mind first, thus should downclock to sub-10W levels pretty well while still retaining at least some of the computing power.

But yes, the current atoms aren't anything special and certainly won't allow for laptop-level performance or anywhere close. You might get netbook performance from a couple of years ago at best.
 
I hope somebody from Microsoft reads this, cause they need to know their idiots.....

What are your qualifications again? I want to know what your logic is behind this statement.

Better hardware, better platform, and it is a premium device.

If you want a cheaper WinRT tablet get an Acer or some other garbage.

You get what you pay for.
 
The Pro version of Surface comes with a Sandy/Ivy i5, although likely downclocked significantly in order to fit a tablet form factor.
My mistake. I'm not sure where I read that the Pro was a Clovertrail part.
 
The Pro version of Surface comes with a Sandy/Ivy i5, although likely downclocked significantly in order to fit a tablet form factor.

They will have the same 1.8GHz Ivy i3/i5 ULV CPU as current Ultrabooks.
 
It could be a marketing tactic. They may have posted that accidentally to create a fuss, then post it $100.00 less for each version to create the illusion of a "deal". Just being optimistic.
 
What are your qualifications again? I want to know what your logic is behind this statement.

Better hardware, better platform, and it is a premium device.

If you want a cheaper WinRT tablet get an Acer or some other garbage.

You get what you pay for.

Qualifications? Nobody should need much more than a grade 5 education to realize MS needs to stop chasing just tech and corporate people for money and go after the average consumer. MS should be asking the Xbox team for advice, not a qualified IT guy.
 
The Pro version of Surface comes with a Sandy/Ivy i5, although likely downclocked significantly in order to fit a tablet form factor. It also almost certainly has intake/exhaust fans as well. If you're looking for a true laptop-worthy chip, although more Ultrabook worthy insofar that it offers half the performance of a 35W equivalent laptop chip, you're should be looking at the Haswell-based tablets coming next year. Unlike Ivy and Sandy, which were designed for that 35W and 45W TDP threshold, Haswell was designed with Ultrabooks in mind first, thus should downclock to sub-10W levels pretty well while still retaining at least some of the computing power.

But yes, the current atoms aren't anything special and certainly won't allow for laptop-level performance or anywhere close. You might get netbook performance from a couple of years ago at best.

My Sandy Bridge Core i5 HP Folio 13 ultrabook is passively cooled. Ventilated maybe but I don't see them putting fans in a highly mobile tablet. It's asking for trouble.
 
Qualifications? Nobody should need much more than a grade 5 education to realize MS needs to stop chasing just tech and corporate people for money and go after the average consumer. MS should be asking the Xbox team for advice, not a qualified IT guy.

I think their fancy colors are their attempt at catching the average consumer's eye. I feel like Apple and MS swapped places from about 10 years ago. Apple now sells gray scale devices and MS decided to go with everything that is really colorful like the god awful iMacs.
 
They will have the same 1.8GHz Ivy i3/i5 ULV CPU as current Ultrabooks.

Somehow I doubt it...

Have you used an Ultrabook and noticed the fan whine? The Sandy/Ivy line of chips were designed with 35W-to-45W TDPs in mind. They scale up relatively well to desktop, but scaling down they're difficult to cool and throttle significantly under the 17W TDP threshold along with the inherent difficulties of cooling such a chip in a very thin form factor.

If they do decide to use a 17W Ivy/Sandy i5 then I'd skip the first generation without hesitation. It's going to need a fan -- and by this I must reiterate NEED. There's no way in hell they'll passively cool a 17W ULV chip in a tablet -- along with a hefty battery due to the still relatively high power consumption compared to ARM. This adds both weight and cost.

Haswell looks to be the chip that solves at least some of these inherent difficulties of downscaling/binning of the former 2 generations. Intel has suggested at a 8W Haswell chip and made no secrete that they designed Haswell from the ground up with Ultrabooks and that 17W TDP in mind. Unfortunately, that isn't coming until late 1H 2013.
 
My Sandy Bridge Core i5 HP Folio 13 ultrabook is passively cooled. Ventilated maybe but I don't see them putting fans in a highly mobile tablet. It's asking for trouble.

No it isn't. Look again. There isn't a single Ultrabook on the market that's passively cooled, and that's because even at 17W it's impossible to passively cool them.

63019.jpg


They just put it at the back with the intake underneath. It has a fan, just like every other Ultrabook and almost certainly the Surface Pro will have one too.
 
No way they're going to be able to compete with the iPad and Android at that price point, unless by confused customers, that are unaware of the limitations of the ARM tablets, thinking that they'll be able to run their legacy games/applications on it... which I'm sure could blow up in their faces as well.
I think your giving people too much credit...those same people will be looking for a CD drive to install those same apps on a Surface... Not to mention you lose the ability for legacy stuff if you go Android or to an iPad.

I have an iPad2, and its alright for light weight web browsing (which can be frustrating anyways on it) and other stuff, but I feel like its too limited for me...I'm wondering how Surface compares to it with Windows 8 and if it will give more of a desktop experience I'm looking for.

I'm still looking forward to the Pro models, if they can retail for under 1K, I'll get one.
 
It could be a marketing tactic. They may have posted that accidentally to create a fuss, then post it $100.00 less for each version to create the illusion of a "deal". Just being optimistic.

Good point, MS might go that way.

Price made me think of this. :)
404131_10151282831353885_936970649_.jpg
 
No it isn't. Look again. There isn't a single Ultrabook on the market that's passively cooled, and that's because even at 17W it's impossible to passively cool them.

63019.jpg


They just put it at the back with the intake underneath. It has a fan, just like every other Ultrabook and almost certainly the Surface Pro will have one too.

I take it back. I checked the maintenance and service guide and sure enough there's a fan. I couldn't fathom a fan fitting inside it and I can never feel or hear it running.

http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c03177433.pdf
 
If they do decide to use a 17W Ivy/Sandy i5 then I'd skip the first generation without hesitation. It's going to need a fan -- and by this I must reiterate NEED. There's no way in hell they'll passively cool a 17W ULV chip in a tablet -- along with a hefty battery due to the still relatively high power consumption compared to ARM. This adds both weight and cost.

Look, unless they push they push Surface Pro to Q2-Q3/2013, then there is nothing else they can use. They already stated they will use Core i5 in Surface Pro. They stated that Surface Pro will be out at the end of January. Unless Intel surprises us with Haswell and releases 2-3 months early, MS won't be able to use it.

So, if it is not Haswell and it is Core i5, what else than ULV Ivy Bridge Core i5 can it be ?

Surface Pro is going to have vent all around - "You may be wondering how the heat generated in the device is going out. The Microsoft surface uses Perimeter ventilation which makes sure you will never block the vents."
 
No it isn't. Look again. There isn't a single Ultrabook on the market that's passively cooled, and that's because even at 17W it's impossible to passively cool them.
Not impossible, necessarily, but certainly cost-prohibitive. My 65W TDP Core i7 is passively-cooled, and it really doesn't take all that much in the way of dissipative surface to achieve it.

Given careful, thoughtful and clever design, and given the right materials, it's certainly achievable.
 
I still want the Pro model...but I'd rather have an iPad than this RT trash. At least I know the iPad is Apple's primary focus.
 
Look, unless they push they push Surface Pro to Q2-Q3/2013, then there is nothing else they can use. They already stated they will use Core i5 in Surface Pro. They stated that Surface Pro will be out at the end of January. Unless Intel surprises us with Haswell and releases 2-3 months early, MS won't be able to use it.

So, if it is not Haswell and it is Core i5, what else than ULV Ivy Bridge Core i5 can it be ?

Surface Pro is going to have vent all around - "You may be wondering how the heat generated in the device is going out. The Microsoft surface uses Perimeter ventilation which makes sure you will never block the vents."

I'm well aware they've already chosen Sandy/Ivy. My point is that if you're looking for something powerful, cool and meant for that form factor you're going to have to wait for Haswell.


Not impossible, necessarily, but certainly cost-prohibitive. My 65W TDP Core i7 is passively-cooled, and it really doesn't take all that much in the way of dissipative surface to achieve it.

Given careful, thoughtful and clever design, and given the right materials, it's certainly achievable.


That's impossible given the size restrictions in a tablet or a laptop. I've got a 35W Sandy laptop ThinkPad I'm typing on right now. I've manually configured the fan speeds such that it's passively cooled until it reaches 70C, which is when the fan kicks in incrementally until it reaches the 95C cutoff point. Given that the X220 has very good cooling and isn't as thin as a tablet or Ultrabook (along with a whole lot of intake on the bottom and intake/exhaust on the side). The thinner the form factor the whinier the fan noise (read the Ultrabook reviews). If you do decide to passively cool it, you're going to need to use much more copper and that adds size and cost. Given the thin and small tablet restrictions, that's essentially impossible.

I know people were claiming the ports around the Surface were just speakers, but as soon as MS claimed they were using an i5 I knew right away what it had to be. The only question I have is whether these chips are 17W ULV i5's or downclocked even further to a lower TDP threshold.
 
Several things people seem to be missing here:

1. It's supposed to be expensive on purpose. This is Microsoft's version of their Windows RT tablet. This is because MS doesn't want to compete with their hardware partners. That's not what they're trying to do here. MS does not want to piss off the hardware partners that have been selling Windows and making MS successful all these years because that would just be stupid. MS intentionally made theirs cost more so that their hardware partners (Asus, Dell, HP, etc) can sell their OEM version of the RT tablets with more features and a lower price point. If ya'll would just chill, wait for the other vendors to start selling their versions and you'll likely be a lot more interested in those.

2. Microsoft is NOT selling these in stores right now. They're only available directly from MS from the online Microsoft Store and via their brick retail Microsoft Stores (good luck finding one). This further reduces the likelihood that MS will piss off their OEM partners. You may be able to find Microsoft's Surface in regular stores later next year after MS has let their OEMs have a go FIRST. MS may even decide not to put them in regular stores.

3. The Microsoft Surface is simply Microsoft's attempt at showing what's possible with RT and "how it's done right". It's a "Signature" product and does not come pre-loaded with bloatware and all the other crap. So MS is also right here in selling it at a premium price.

4. MS is only trying to directly compete with the iPad here, and they are in line with that price point and you still get more storage, more features, etc.

5. As others have noted, it comes with Office 2013 which has a cost of its own. For those that say you'd never use Office 2013 on your tablet, I call bullshit. This is a laptop replacement here and a tablet in one. Attach that keyboard and you've got a sweet lightweight laptop, like the MacBook Air although it is much cheaper, plus you get the tablet experience. You want a DVD drive in this thing? Seriously? No. Why optical media hasn't gone the way of the floppy disk yet I don't know. That's what networking/wi-fi, SD cards and USB storage are for tyvm.

6. For those of you whining about not being able to use desktop apps, NO DUH. That's what the Pro version is for. I don't think consumers would get confused here either. I don't believe they'll expect this NEW product to do anything like a desktop does. It's not a desktop. It's a tablet, and Apple has already set the precedence that you can't do shit with them outside of the Apple store, etc. Windows RT is a MANAGED device/OS just like the iPad, etc.
 
unab0mb, you're right but neglecting a few things...

My AT post

Well, they do, but not in direct competition with everyone else. If Microsoft really wanted to compete, they'd have priced their tablets at a loss and could have gotten away with it. The fact that they haven't, instead opting to price them close to Apple (stupid decision), means they wanted to give the OEMs some flexibility with respect to BoM and profit margins.

The $85 price tag for win8 RT + office bundle is stupid, though. That's what's ultimately going to really hamper sales for the OEMs. When operating at such low margins and competing with the likes of the Nexus and Fire, and now the iPad mini, that $85 is likely to price them all out of contention; Microsoft included.

I don't think anyone wants to be doing any MS Office related work on what is essentially a shitty cloth keyboard. Doing any sort of lengthy typing is going to lead to suicide.

They did price it high to avoid butting heads with OEMs and allowing some profit margin on their part, the issue is that they also priced the OS + Office far too high at $85 for the bundle, which means the OEMs have to account for that when competing with both Apple and Android. The Nexus 7 is likely to be followed up by a 10" version which, too, will be sold at a loss, much like Amazon's tablets.

Secondly, the keyboard pales in comparison to what's already available for Android: a proper keyboard plus a battery that more than doubles the battery life of your device and actually lets you tilt the thing instead of using a stupid fragile stand that allows only a single position. A laptop replacement the SurfaceRT is not.
 
That's impossible given the size restrictions in a tablet or a laptop.
I'm not saying that 65W is (practically) possible. I'm saying that 17W is. My point was for illustrative purposes only.
 
I'm not saying that 65W is (practically) possible. I'm saying that 17W is. My point was for illustrative purposes only.

It is in a larger form factor. For a tablet or Ultrabook, it isn't. There's a lot that goes into a laptop or tablet that takes up a lot of space, the battery being the largest part. Opting to go with a massive, and I do mean massive, heatsink means having a larger device or decreasing battery life significantly.

It's "possible" but certainly not practically possible nor feasible. An experiment, yea, but definitely not a product somebody would buy. Expensive passively-cooled Ultrabook with 1/3 the battery life and a massive price tag? :p
 
Wayyyy to high for the RT version I was expecting 249-299 price range for a 8/16 gig version. At this price point I might as well buy another iPad or a Nexus 7 for cheaper :/ way to blow it Microsoft
 
MS just priced itself out of the market.

However, I agree that they are pricing this way high in order not to compete with the OEM tablets. Maybe they don't care that they will only sell a few thousand of these each month.

They used to say- price shit higher to give people the illusion that your shit is premium.
OK. understandable.

But in this case, MS is late to the tablet game, and it doesn't have the prestige that Apple does. So 95% of people will just roll their eyes and line up at the Apple store to buy the Ipad Mini coming out on October 23.

That's the funniest part. On October 26, you won't see a line of people waiting to buy the Surface at the MS Store.
On October 26, you might see people line up for the Ipad Mini though, assuming it is available then.
 
Secondly, the keyboard pales in comparison to what's already available for Android: a proper keyboard plus a battery that more than doubles the battery life of your device and actually lets you tilt the thing instead of using a stupid fragile stand that allows only a single position. A laptop replacement the SurfaceRT is not.

Yes, but it has both bluetooth and a USB port so you can attach whatever the hell keyboard and mouse that you want. You DO have the option of buying the Surface without the MS Touch/Type keyboards.

About it not being a laptop replacement. In some respects you're right. But, in my organization having this managed device be able to do the basics like Office, e-mail, internet browsing means that it fits the bill for 90% of our users. A VP or above is definitely going to want one of these. Not developers, etc. of course. And hell, if Citrix (a huge MS partner) comes out with a Citrix plugin for WinRT (and you know they will) you now have access to all of your corporate applications. This isn't a gaming laptop, etc. and I wouldn't compare it to that. If you need more functionality/raw power than for the above listed basics, you still have the Surface Pro and other Windows 8 Pro hybrid devices to look forward to which are beefier and give you access to the "legacy" desktop applications.
 
Now let's see what the OEM's price at.

This whole thing could turn out to be a disaster for Windows 8.

The only way win8 will have any more relevance than blackberry tablet OS is if oem's price it low enough to compete with android and iOS
 
But, in my organization having this managed device be able to do the basics like Office, e-mail, internet browsing means that it fits the bill for 90% of our users.

And for all these basic tasks you don't need to blow $500-900 on a Surface RT device.

There really is no real reason for a consumer doing basic consumer tasks to blow MSRP on the Surface or the Surface RT.
 
Yes, but it has both bluetooth and a USB port so you can attach whatever the hell keyboard and mouse that you want. You DO have the option of buying the Surface without the MS Touch/Type keyboards.

About it not being a laptop replacement. In some respects you're right. But, in my organization having this managed device be able to do the basics like Office, e-mail, internet browsing means that it fits the bill for 90% of our users. A VP or above is definitely going to want one of these. Not developers, etc. of course. And hell, if Citrix (a huge MS partner) comes out with a Citrix plugin for WinRT (and you know they will) you now have access to all of your corporate applications. This isn't a gaming laptop, etc. and I wouldn't compare it to that. If you need more functionality/raw power than for the above listed basics, you still have the Surface Pro and other Windows 8 Pro hybrid devices to look forward to which are beefier and give you access to the "legacy" desktop applications.

Keep in mind that MS is also planning on releasing an Android/iOS version of Office early next year. So the "Office" merits that this too-high-of-a-price-to-make-sense device had are going to be null and void. Considering both Android and iOS offer a much healthier selection of applications, and the prior is cheaper, which do you think they'll prefer?

It's just crazy to me that they'd go about it this way. People don't care about the Microsoft brand like they do about Apple. The sheep have long flocked to a new shepherd, yet Microsoft has dug its head in the sand and is ignoring the current climate. If you're going to sell a device today, particularly a tablet, you'd better offer something special AND compete on price. They haven't done either.
 
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