Microsoft Frustrated As Ever With H-1B Policy

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Why would Microsoft be concerned at all with the H-1B policy when they are smack dab in the middle of thousands of layoffs?

The company’s argument for access to more high-skilled foreign workers seems unaffected by its recent layoffs, even if the number of H-1B workers it seeks next year is potentially smaller than in some previous years. In 2013, Microsoft, for instance, received approval for 1,048 H-1B visas.
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I love it, "cost savings".
Microsoft is spending how many billions on purchasing Minecraft?

This is beyond stupid.
Fuck these companies.
 
shabazkilla said:
This. H1B visa usage in tech is just a cost saving measure.
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That's not necessarily true. I've seen the going pay for some of the H1Bs where I work and it's hard to see where there's any cost savings. Plus the H1B process isn't cheap, there's fees and administration that has to be handled. If a tech company is looking to cut labor costs they use staff in lower wage countries. India is well known for this in IT, but there's other. Mexico is becoming something of a cheaper labor IT provider.

I think the issue is a little more complex than is commonly thought. A lot of these people can go anywhere they want with their skill sets. While obviously it can hurt some people when getting employment is tough (though in the IT field that's not generally the case), it's better overall for the country that we bring in skilled workers that want to come here but could go elsewhere.
 
heatlesssun said:
That's not necessarily true. I've seen the going pay for some of the H1Bs where I work and it's hard to see where there's any cost savings. Plus the H1B process isn't cheap, there's fees and administration that has to be handled. If a tech company is looking to cut labor costs they use staff in lower wage countries. India is well known for this in IT, but there's other. Mexico is becoming something of a cheaper labor IT provider.

I think the issue is a little more complex than is commonly thought. A lot of these people can go anywhere they want with their skill sets. While obviously it can hurt some people when getting employment is tough (though in the IT field that's not generally the case), it's better overall for the country that we bring in skilled workers that want to come here but could go elsewhere.
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Just saturating the field with prospective employees drives wages down. If you can get notable unemployment to develop, even better. You don't have to underpay the H1-B's to benefit.
 
jpm100 said:
Just saturating the field with prospective employees drives wages down. If you can get notable unemployment to develop, even better. You don't have to underpay the H1-B's to benefit.
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Again, I think people are underestimating what H1Bs get paid. Not saying all, but I know for a fact that many in my group at the bank are getting paid to market. Labor cost savings are much easier to achieve with staff in lower wage nations. Offshore labor is a much more powerful downward force on wages than onshore H1Bs.
 
heatlesssun said:
Again, I think people are underestimating what H1Bs get paid. Not saying all, but I know for a fact that many in my group at the bank are getting paid to market. Labor cost savings are much easier to achieve with staff in lower wage nations. Offshore labor is a much more powerful downward force on wages than onshore H1Bs.
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My point is that they don't need to be underpaid to drive down wages accross the board.

You're assuming there is capability abroad, there is confidence in that capability, and work can be done remotely without much compromise. If all three aren't met, the focus will be on domestic employment.
 
heatlesssun said:
Again, I think people are underestimating what H1Bs get paid. Not saying all, but I know for a fact that many in my group at the bank are getting paid to market. Labor cost savings are much easier to achieve with staff in lower wage nations. Offshore labor is a much more powerful downward force on wages than onshore H1Bs.
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Same where I work. They have to do H1Bs because the market is super hot for developers right now. So finding good ones, in the area (or willing to commute), that haven't lied on their resume, and aren't asking for 2-3x normal salary, is VERY difficult. We have been looking for months, and have gone through a large number of shitty developers (who were all paid a ton as well...). So we have a couple H1B's, who get paid the same rate PLUS all the extra shit you mentioned that's required. It's extremely expensive for the company, and there is a ton of paperwork. Plus the employees can up and leave at any time, as long as they have another job, and the company is out that money.
 
heatlesssun said:
Again, I think people are underestimating what H1Bs get paid. Not saying all, but I know for a fact that many in my group at the bank are getting paid to market. Labor cost savings are much easier to achieve with staff in lower wage nations. Offshore labor is a much more powerful downward force on wages than onshore H1Bs.
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Yes but if you bring H1Bs over for jobs, that makes the ratio of jobs to employees lower, with less opportunities for work they (or someone else) can very easily charge less because while you might not get everyone who bites there are going to be desperate people who will work for lower wages.

Remember this isn't an even unionized thing, companies can be evil by retarding wages by increasing the available workforce.
 
For a second I thought this was about herpes.....

I was like "what the hell does microsoft have to do with infecting people with herpes....:eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
It's not even about cost savings so much. Most of these folks that are directly employed by MS and like firms get paid pretty well.

It's about control. An H1-B can not change jobs without the very high likelihood of getting kicked out of the country. Think about that - would you be late to work even once if you knew you could get not only written up or fired, but physically removed from the country and sent back somewhere with a much lower gdp?
 
Red Falcon said:
I love it, "cost savings".
Microsoft is spending how many billions on purchasing Minecraft?

This is beyond stupid.
Fuck these companies.
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They have the money to spend on shit like Minecraft because of tactics like these. Common folk are just wage slaves.
 
h89C5B715


The slashdot thread is hilarious. It's funny to see fat, overpaid people complaining about competition.
 
flashoverride said:
It's not even about cost savings so much. Most of these folks that are directly employed by MS and like firms get paid pretty well.

It's about control. An H1-B can not change jobs without the very high likelihood of getting kicked out of the country. Think about that - would you be late to work even once if you knew you could get not only written up or fired, but physically removed from the country and sent back somewhere with a much lower gdp?
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I don't think too many H1B's I know are worried about it like that. Yes, I've seen quite a few kicked out because their visas didn't renewed, and yes a few terminated (but with pretty good cause). But most of these people are pretty solid folks and most don't intend to stay and plan to go back home. The experience here can be a huge boon to them back in their home labor markets and good English speakers are valuable.
 
flashoverride said:
It's not even about cost savings so much. Most of these folks that are directly employed by MS and like firms get paid pretty well.

It's about control. An H1-B can not change jobs without the very high likelihood of getting kicked out of the country. Think about that - would you be late to work even once if you knew you could get not only written up or fired, but physically removed from the country and sent back somewhere with a much lower gdp?
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Thats not true. Once an H1B is sponsered, the person can leave their company, voluntarily or not, and have up to 6 months to find new employment before they must go back. In a field like Software Development, there is NO CHANCE of being unemployed that long if you have the skills.

H1B's are paid at perfect parity where I work. The reason we use H1B's is because we need talent, and there arent enough talented American Developers (theirs lots of them, but there mostly hired already).

Honestly, the hate H1B's get is unfounded imo. Ive never seen an H1B candidate get preference over a nationalized citizen. Ive seen them get preference because they are better.
 
Cali3350 said:
Thats not true. Once an H1B is sponsered, the person can leave their company, voluntarily or not, and have up to 6 months to find new employment before they must go back. In a field like Software Development, there is NO CHANCE of being unemployed that long if you have the skills.

H1B's are paid at perfect parity where I work. The reason we use H1B's is because we need talent, and there arent enough talented American Developers (theirs lots of them, but there mostly hired already).

Honestly, the hate H1B's get is unfounded imo. Ive never seen an H1B candidate get preference over a nationalized citizen. Ive seen them get preference because they are better.
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Im wrong above btw, they do indeed leave immediately when laid off. Still not a situation ive ever seen though. Ive seen lots of people leave, but only because they got better offers from other companies.
 
H1B peoples are smarts and Americans are dumb. It's not about money.

Actually it's always about money. :)
 
the only reason to have h1b is to lower costs. If there was a shortage of employees you would see wages raise. But no wages are going up. IE there is no shortage.

Plus all of you are missing the fact that MS just laid off thousands of employees.
 
Prevailing wages fall when the market is flooded with new job seekers. That should be easy to understand for anyone (minus one) in this thread.
 
pxc said:
Prevailing wages fall when the market is flooded with new job seekers. That should be easy to understand for anyone (minus one) in this thread.
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So don't let them in and they'll go someplace else. Then when a need for a particular skillset becomes expensive or difficult to fill, what do you think will happen?
 
opfreak said:
the only reason to have h1b is to lower costs. If there was a shortage of employees you would see wages raise. But no wages are going up. IE there is no shortage.

Plus all of you are missing the fact that MS just laid off thousands of employees.
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Wages are going up. Google / Microsoft / Banks etc are all increasing both their yearly salaries and bonuses for new hires and senior hires alike.
 
Biznatch said:
Same where I work. They have to do H1Bs because the market is super hot for developers right now......
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In Seattle wages are great I hear. There's a shortage of good people for these jobs and the Microsoft layoffs aren't denting it.
 
weebling1 said:
In Seattle wages are great I hear. There's a shortage of good people for these jobs and the Microsoft layoffs aren't denting it.
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Seattle's cost of living is pretty high too when compared to other areas so while you earn more, you also have to spend more to have the same quality of life as you could in less expensive places. I know because I totally was living there until the middle of last year and food, rent, even electricity and junk are a ton cheaper in the dumb hicksville place where I live now. Of course, the conversations you can have with people in Seattle are a lot better. It was fun to meet people at Starbucks who could speak English. In Pennsylvania, outside of it's two major cities, you're lucky to find someone that can even read road signs.
 
opfreak said:
the only reason to have h1b is to lower costs. If there was a shortage of employees you would see wages raise. But no wages are going up. IE there is no shortage.

Plus all of you are missing the fact that MS just laid off thousands of employees.
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^^^^^
This!
 
There needs to be some kind of law that basically states.
If you dont hire US citizens for your american made company.
Then you should get none of the benefits from our gov.

Why should companies get FAT on our money and extras
from our gov if they rather hire out of country!
 
NastyNative said:
There needs to be some kind of law that basically states.
If you dont hire US citizens for your american made company.
Then you should get none of the benefits from our gov.

Why should companies get FAT on our money and extras
from our gov if they rather hire out of country!
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Next you'll be saying they shouldn't declare all profits come from their Dutch or Irish branch so they don't have to pay taxes on them.
 
NastyNative said:
There needs to be some kind of law that basically states.
If you dont hire US citizens for your american made company.
Then you should get none of the benefits from our gov.

Why should companies get FAT on our money and extras
from our gov if they rather hire out of country!
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Full disclaimer: I work at a Fortune 500 software company. I've also done recruiting for said company. The unfortunate reality that people don't seem to want to admit is that most Americans just aren't qualified for these jobs. If one in ten computer science graduates I talk to is worth hiring, it's an amazing day (and I haven't had such a day yet, in many recruiting trips to well-known, well-respected schools). It's not like we're looking for an HR list of buzzwords either - I've done mostly college recruiting (where we don't care so much what languages you know, it's more about how capable you are of learning and doing), and most of them just don't have the critical thinking, logical analysis, and analysis skills to solve their way out of a wet paper bag.

I'm not saying Microsoft's 100% in the right here - we'll probably never know the full story of the layoffs, they're never fun no matter what, and they really seem to have made some strange decisions, especially with regard to R&D groups - but I completely believe them when they say they have trouble finding qualified people.
 
Arainach said:
I'm not saying Microsoft's 100% in the right here - we'll probably never know the full story of the layoffs, they're never fun no matter what, and they really seem to have made some strange decisions, especially with regard to R&D groups - but I completely believe them when they say they have trouble finding qualified people.
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Everyday in this forum there are numerous posts about how stupid and lazy people are, particularly Americans. Every single day without end. So when companies are complaining about finding qualified workers all of a sudden it's simply about finding low cost labor? But if so many American's are stupid, if 47% simply want a government handout, is it beyond reason that companies looking for H1Bs are simply agreeing with that position and actually seeing the results in the labor market?
 
pxc said:
Prevailing wages fall when the market is flooded with new job seekers. That should be easy to understand for anyone (minus one) in this thread.
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Prime example out here in California is with construction jobs.
People used (about 20 years ago) to be able to make a decent living in construction jobs like hanging drywall. There was even a drywallers Union. However, we had so many people coming from south of the boarder, and willing to work for close to minimum wage, that the Union eventually went under due to lack of working members.

Wages have never recovered, and it's basically impossible to make a decent living in a lower skilled construction job. However, the profits of the owners and managers in a lot of the construction business are up.
 
H1b is also about spreading microsoft further into other countries. Think about it, They work and microsoft and take that skill from that job on. It worked for intel.
 
opfreak said:
the only reason to have h1b is to lower costs. If there was a shortage of employees you would see wages raise. But no wages are going up. IE there is no shortage.

Plus all of you are missing the fact that MS just laid off thousands of employees.
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Quoting your comment, but this could apply to any number of ill-informed people in this thread. When we're doing interviews beyond the initial screening, pretty much only the person doing the initial screening and the final hiring manager knows if the person being interviewed would need a visa. Even when I've interviewed current employees remotely (I have them share their screen on Lync and open whatever IDE they are comfortable with, ask what language they would like for their interview question, and do the coding questions that way before deciding if its worth going into architectural questions), I don't know whether they are intending to come here or stay at their current foreign sites.

Last month I did a large number of college phone screenings. These aren't even real interviews, they're just an attempt to see if it's worth bothering flying you out here. The sad reality is that worldwide, only half of the people I interviewed were worth flying out, and I was being lenient on some people as I was interviewing both SDE and PM, and don't have much experience with the latter.

Yeah, thousands were just laid off, including my friend and teammate, who was here on an H1B and laid off last week. He was the same level as me, but wasn't cheaper than me (higher salary and the legal stuff surrounding H1B employees). If he and the others I know who worked here on H1Bs were driving down my wages, I certainly haven't seen nor felt it, and would strongly doubt the claim of anyone who says they have. Yes, on a broad scale, it means I likely won't be paid as much as I could be. On the flip side, maybe if we remain inexpensive enough relative to our produced value it will take longer before we're made obsolete by our own creations.

Even after the layoffs, we have tons of unfilled openings. That may seem contradictory, but we really were overweight in some areas. Management may have been about as clear as mashed potatoes regarding how certain decisions were made, but the end goal is, ostensibly, to reduce the number of middle managers (eventually?), move to a devops-driven structure, and - in my personal opinion - reduce the reliance on a shadow workforce of non-FTE who work here year-after-year.

Regardless of where they come from, I think the US stands to benefit by importing people at all levels of the economy. Reactionary protectionism only gives other countries a chance to become the hotspot for the next big thing, which isn't something driven by cost - nor is it something driven solely by intelligence & opportunity - it requires both.
 
heatlesssun said:
But if so many American's are stupid, if 47% simply want a government handout, is it beyond reason that companies looking for H1Bs are simply agreeing with that position and actually seeing the results in the labor market?
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FFS, the 47% is not people freeloading, it's people who don't earn enough to be paying federal taxes IN ADDITION TO PAYROLL TAX. The majority of these are not people looking for a government handout, they're people who are working a regular job and just not earning enough to qualify for additional taxation. Here's a breakdown:

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/09/dependency-and-romneys-47-percenters/
 
The law states that H1-B's must be paid relative to what "normal" people in that field are paid. They can not be low-balled per se.

Well, I tried looking up the tax benefits from the corporate perspective to see if there is a financial gain on the backend for the company.

However I did see that H1-B's are only able to stay in the country for 3-6 years. That in an of itself is a nice thing to a company because it means they can not build any benefits from the company. You do not have to worry about people being there for a long time building pensions, or pay raises or vacation time. You get to refresh your people every several years which means you do not have to invest in them.

So ya they may be paid on par with others in the field, but not the same as a 20 year employee who has gotten hat 4-5% every year.
 
First off I'm shocked at the number of folks here professing to both be-in-the-know while stomping for more H1 talent.

Those pushing for H1's all suffer from the same perspective. Their point of view basically constructed and suffering from these two, primary tenets:
1) Labor is a commodity
2) An employer should be able to purchase this commodity at the best price, no matter the source

... Please lay off the corporate cool-aide

If a big company like Microsoft needs more talent they should look towards the local education system and infrastructure. Needing more people necessitates investment - there's no quick fix or workaround. And, it's this investment that'll improve our country.

P.S. To those here sporting the trite message, "I've been looking for talent and those so far interviewed just don't make the grade". Better you should have put in some effort brushing up on ethics prior to wearing such a self-centered philosophy. But, like you, that's were Microsoft is right now and that's what'll haunt them during each-in-every effort to gain an intellectual edge on the competition. Microsoft 'shops'... they don't build - they don't participate.
 
There isnt a shortage of skilled tech workers, there is a shortage of tech workers that will work at a lower percentile of a starting salary. Companies love college grads because they are naive and energetic, prime candidates to be exploited by a company for three or so years without pay increases. Well, you did really well in your performance review, have an entire 3% pay increase, while upper management shows each other powerpoints all week and get 10% raises with higher starting salaries.
 
Lord of Shadows said:
There isnt a shortage of skilled tech workers, there is a shortage of tech workers that will work at a lower percentile of a starting salary. Companies love college grads because they are naive and energetic, prime candidates to be exploited by a company for three or so years without pay increases. Well, you did really well in your performance review, have an entire 3% pay increase, while upper management shows each other powerpoints all week and get 10% raises with higher starting salaries.
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This isnt the case at a Google / Microsoft / Bank etc. They all get a minimum of ~10% for their first 3 years. And they start well, not low. What companies are you referencing here?
 
westrock2000 said:
However I did see that H1-B's are only able to stay in the country for 3-6 years. That in an of itself is a nice thing to a company because it means they can not build any benefits from the company. You do not have to worry about people being there for a long time building pensions, or pay raises or vacation time. You get to refresh your people every several years which means you do not have to invest in them.
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The other negative of hiring someone for 3-5 years would be that they would take all of the knowledge back with them and helps what might end up as a future rival. The odd thing is the top firms tend to only care about the top few students is the class normally. Basically they want to hire the best of the best no mater where they come from...to me the issue is complex as if the visa students stay on for 5 years lets say they then area net brain drain... where as you could have hired a local student and imho had a better long term investment, but one would then argue the limited useful life of the skill set.
 
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