Microsoft Exec: iPad Pro Is a "Clear Example" of Apple Following Microsoft

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    I thought this was already common knowledge, but Microsoft has officially called Apple copycats, stating that the iPad Pro was designed merely to compete with Surface devices. Tim Cook originally equated the idea to putting a toaster and refrigerator together, yet years later, Satya Nadella was able to poke fun at the comment as he discussed the success of the 2-in-1 formfactor. Apple fans are now arguing that the Surface is a rip-off of the original iPad.

    "Think about it, if we had been looking at [Apple] we wouldn't have made a product like Surface Pro or Surface Book," Gavin said. "We have been learning and perfecting our products in the 2-in-1 category for years now, [but] when Surface initially launched everyone was skeptical, including them. And then they followed, and the iPad Pro is a clear example of that." Of course Microsoft pays attention to the competition, but when it comes to actually building the Surface hardware, "we don't really look at Apple," Gavin said.
     
  2. nightanole

    nightanole [H]ard|Gawd

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    Didnt they have ipads/surfaces in 2001: a space odyssey in the 1960's?

     
  3. TechLarry

    TechLarry Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Yep. Taking a 10 year old product and giving it a bigger screen as an option is being a copycat.

    What a fucking loser.
     
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  4. azuza001

    azuza001 Gawd

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    To be fair, I love my surface pro 2. But everything is a copy of something else. If they say they didn't copy the iPad then what did they copy? Because it sure wasn't original. If he tried to make the argument that they just looked at what their customers were asking for and made that then I bet the request from the customers was "an iPad that has a keyboard and can run real windows"
     
  5. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    The Surface line certainly isn't original but the Surface is much more an evolution of the Windows Tablet PC concept from the Windows XP Tablet PC Edition days from 15 years ago than an implementation of the iPad. While of course the hardware that modern Surfaces run on is far superior to that of XP Tablet PCs from 15 years ago, the software platform is just like it was then, Windows. The big difference now being that Windows is far better suited for tablets and touch devices.
     
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  6. Paladin21

    Paladin21 Limp Gawd

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    The "copycat" is that they included a pen digitizer and advertise it as a laptop alternative with a keyboard. This exact combination of functionality is what Apple said was dumb when the Surface 1 released.

    And the University I work at did have some of those Windows XP tablets heatlessun mentioned. They were actually pretty decent from a functionality standpoint, but had horrible battery life and mediocre performance (for a price tag above and beyond a top-end laptop). The pen system on them took some getting used to, but we had quite a few professors use it for grading.
     
  7. Nukester

    Nukester Gawd

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    I have a Surface Pro 4 and family has 4 iPads. the Surface Pro gets picked up once in a while for remote to work and doing office applications/work stuff. Everything else the iPad's do a much better job of just being a tablet.

    Work, Surface Pro.
    Entertainment, iPad.
     
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  8. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

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  9. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah the new Ipad Pro 12.9 or whatever the larger screen size is going to be my first Apple product ever. I've owned other Apple products but never bought anything new from them directly, ever.

    120hz screen, new 40% faster GPU? Pencil latency down to 2ms? Artists dream come true.

    $799 is a killer price from all of that. I can't wait.
     
  10. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    Considering Apple made tablets what they are today with the iPad starting it all lol

    If Apple were copying Microsoft it would have ads and reboot itself without permission every day to install updates
     
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  11. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I've got an iPad, and it's not uncommon for me to come back to it and have to enter my password (as opposed to using my finger), because it restarted itself. I've seen that happen with the iPhone too (though not as often in the last year or so).

    And if your PC is rebooting every day to install updates, you're doing something wrong. No more than once a month and if I cared, I'd just delay it till I was ready to install the updates. It's not like I don't know when it's patch Tuesday.
     
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  12. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    That is a security setting not accidental.. passcode is required if you dont use your finger within 24hrs or restart the device...
     
  13. yyv_146

    yyv_146 [H]Lite

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    While I think we can all agree that the forced rebooting is annoying, it is unfortunately also necessary for the system to be secure and healthy. Apple does it, and frankly Android should be doing it at least as a default option.
     
  14. azuza001

    azuza001 Gawd

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    Yep I remember those tablets. I always wanted one but never got one. But I also remember that Microsoft was trying to get tablets like that into people's hands years before the iPad and was not successful until Apple hit it out of the park with the iPad. Even then they were not able to get much traction until android tablets hit the scene and started to really tear into Apple sales.

    Again, don't own a single I product, love my surface 2 pro (use it a few times a week), and I can't remember the last time I turned my android tablet on. It is what it is. I wish the Surface had a lightning adaptor to plug external devices like video cards or monitors into. If I had a tablet pc that I could just plug into a TV dock to game on that would be awesome. And no I am not looking at the switch.
     
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  15. snowcrash

    snowcrash Gawd

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    People laughed when the first iPad came out. All kinds of name calling were made. So did proclamations of how it will fail.

    Look at how the market is now. I laughed so hard at Microsoft calling the iPad Pro a copy cat. Talk about pot calling kettle black.

    If it weren't for Apple blazing the trail with continued improvements year after year and Apple fanboys gobbling the iPads up and made the tablet market what it is today while proving that tablets can work in the business world especially in hospitals all over the world, Microsoft wouldn't have a profitable Surface market.

    I love Surface Pro. It is a lightweight yet powerful tablet and in many aspects better. But it is an iteration of the iPad. MS just simply have gone overboard in attempting to call it an unique product.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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  16. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    Actually no they dont... you can turn off updates completely, do it manually or refuse updates. If you start an update install voluntarily then yes it may involve a system reboot.

    Windows 10 on the other hand, reboots without asking, installs without asking and chews up your internet data regardless if what you are connected to.
     
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  17. Paladin21

    Paladin21 Limp Gawd

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    Though it doesn't fit your narrative snowcrash, Microsoft has been playing in the Tablet/2-in-1 space for over a decade prior to the first iPad. Their issue was the fact that the hardware wasn't up to the task and the application support (from third parties) wasn't that great. The iPad faced neither of those issues because it used a mobile OS, with the same hardware as their phone. It literally had to do nothing for extra support other than scale to the bigger screen. The Surface is a continuation of their previous work in the area stretching back to the early 2000's. To ignore their history in the field (that predates the iPad by almost a decade) and declare them a copycat is to buy full-on into the Apple RDF.

    There is very little in the technology world that is a true innovation. It's all based on taking pre-existing concepts and running with them, often in better ways than before due to advances in technology. Microsoft's work in the tablet space was inspired by lots of previous projects, just like Apple is inspired by previous projects. In this *particular* case, calling a feature set a stupid idea and a bad combination, and then introducing the exact same feature set in the face of competition is far more clear-cut than most situations. You can claim that Apple would have taken this step without the Surface, but you can't deny that they blatantly said it was a shit idea, and then did it anyway when they started losing market share.
     
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  18. Reimu

    Reimu [H]ard|Gawd

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    10? Try 20.
    You clearly forgot about the Tablet PC in 2001! You also forgot about Newton tablet of 1993!
     
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  19. MrGuvernment

    MrGuvernment Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Microsoft had a "tablet" out long before apple ever thought of one, what mid 80's was it? So if we want to get real technical...MS wins.
     
  20. yyv_146

    yyv_146 [H]Lite

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    Actually, Windows 10 won't update over metered connections.

    Delaying security updates is a terrible idea. Chances are your machine will be infected with something. Apple is no exception to this.
     
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  21. snowcrash

    snowcrash Gawd

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    Ok. I'll give you that. But there is no ignoring that Apple made the tablets popular and usable in the business world. So MS were able to take advantage of it and finally made a very good competing product lineup that is useful with its own thriving market share.
     
  22. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    Yes... it will, I had it pull a 3GB update over my teathered WIFI hotspot. Windows does not care or know what the WIFI connection is based on, iOS does because its a teathered device, if its all Apple. If its Android, well at least it will still ask before raping your data.
     
  23. yyv_146

    yyv_146 [H]Lite

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    To be fair I think Apple Newton takes the cake, at least in this hemisphere (not sure what Sony & co. cooked up in the early days of personal computing).

    But that's neither here nor there...elements of the iPad pro are clearly "inspired" by the original Surface, including the keyboard cover and pen. But then again, does it really matter who inspired who? If you like either ecosystem, power to you.
     
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  24. yyv_146

    yyv_146 [H]Lite

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    Did you remember to set it as a metered connection?

    I use my phone as hotspot every day and monitor usage carefully since I'm on a limited plan. Windows update has use zero data from my phone.
     
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  25. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    Yes I have once I actually knew about it, like Im aparently supposed to automatically know about everything in Windows 10 after being forced to it.

    Anyway it has caused issues with other apps not working etc. I dont want my connection being limited completely with no control. I just want to chose when to download install my fuking updates like an adult. Its not hard seriously...
     
  26. Paladin21

    Paladin21 Limp Gawd

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    You and the 250,000+ people affected by WannaCry a few weeks ago. Microsoft takes shit from people on all sides of this argument. If they don't force updates, people rage about them having shit security (though a patch was out for months prior to it being an issue). If they do force updates, people rage about them taking control away from the users and heavy-handed policies. Is forcing updates the right choice? Hell, I don't know. It's certainly up for debate either way. I can say, that if I were a corporate entity and I knew I was going to catch shit from a segment of the user-base either way, being able to claim immunity in the current product is probably more valuable (in terms of stock prices and such) than being virtuous about policy but getting killed on security reports again.
     
  27. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    Actually I wasnt affected because Im not a retard opening files of unknown origin and its a work PC so I couldnt give 2 shits either way. All was well at home with my iPads and macs though *shockhorror*
     
  28. Paladin21

    Paladin21 Limp Gawd

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    The point, obviously, is that users are largely ignorant of the most basic security procedures. When Microsoft doesn't force upgrades, as was the policy in Windows 7, then bad shit happens. I wouldn't expect the type of person who visits a site like this and is active in the forum to have issues in this area. However, it's not like Microsoft can make an "aokman" Edition that allows you to make responsible security choices while simultaneously not allowing millions of people who know jack and shit about their systems to not make terrible choices. Does Apple have a more secure ecosystem? I'd agree to that for most measurements of security. There are, however, plenty of other trade-offs made to achieve that. That's what forced-updates are, a trade-off to guarantee a more secure OS.
     
  29. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    No. Just because the screen size is similar, don't get confused.

    The iPad is basically a large phone, walled garden, etc.

    The Surface Pro is a laptop that can run standard windows applications, etc.
     
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  30. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    No problem here, even though I support a mix of mostly Windows 7 & 10.
    No infected system at home, none at any family members, and none at work.
     
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  31. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not very usable at my office. Only people who have used iPads in my office are a couple managers who find their iPhone screens too small for email, and email is all they use the iPads for.
     
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  32. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    I didn't see a single client hit by it either because I have blocked most malicious attachments via email management. If you are relying in Windows to stop this stuff, you have already failed in security management.
     
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  33. XenIneX

    XenIneX Gawd

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    Doesn't mean they're not usable; just means you don't have a use for them. Just like any business computing device, you need to figure out a business case, software infrastructure and workflow.

    If a hair salon bought a table saw, they'd find they didn't have much use for that either.
     
  34. focbde

    focbde Limp Gawd

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    True enough, however for reasons relating to enterprise (device management and integration) iPads are pretty awful to have to implement as a tool in a medium-large organisation, as I'm sure many people on these forums involved in such work and organisations will tell you. I'm not saying they're bad devices, far from it, but just as you used an analogy to highlight whether or not something is fit for purpose, I'll say that Apple's mobile devices are consumer, and not business, devices when it comes down to it.
     
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  35. TheHangMan

    TheHangMan n00bie

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    No doubt Apple has made tablets what they are today but they did copy from Microshaft who had products out in 2000/1 which I had to support at work in an abattoir, they did work well for the time.

    You could say the ipad is a copy because at the end of the day it is and will always be, as previously stated MS had wireless touchpads out long before apple ever did but at the time I guess people were not ready for it and the products were somewhat clumsy and bulky.

    Apple only took what manufacturers could give them in the way of micro-electronics and made a product around it so each year as moores law had products shrnking so to did the thickness of portable devices.

    Yep I recall 2 years of use with the Tablet PC starting late 2001 as it was just introduced at work for our roaming QA staff to use wirelessly, they weren't fool proof but they did work.
     
  36. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    I don't think they copied Microsoft at all, the original Windows tablets were nothing more than a cut down laptop with a touchscreen that relied on pens and they were crap to be honest. Apple build a device from the ground up and OS to go with it. They brought tablets to consumers and showed people they could actually be better than a keyboard in many ways.

    Microsofts current version of touch I hate just as much, Windows was never meant to be a touch OS so stop trying to make it one. I think Apple are doing a far better job taking a OS that was built on touch and working out how to improve it incrementally with multitasking without compromising battery life, efficiency and user friendliness. Even a toddler can work an iPad, most adults cant work out Windows 10 touch even with an hour or more of use.
     
  37. Reimu

    Reimu [H]ard|Gawd

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    I do agree with you on how that the iPad is an easier device to use.

    I personally hate the lack of flexibility that's inherent with Apple's design philosophy though, and frankly, you know how to operate a windows based tablet if you know how to use a laptop. As such, I still cannot accept the easy to use iPad Pro despite iOS being built with touch in mind, since I do a lot more with a Surface tablet than with the iPad Pro. If you are a serious content producer or has more productivity requirements than just taking notes, then you will lean to Surface.

    (you don't get an iPad Pro to stick a USB DAC+Amp and a dozen peripherals into it, but you do and could with Surface)

    That's not to say that the iPad Pro isn't good enough for most people. It's finally at the point where your average college student and manager can pick up the iPad Pro and doodle, jot notes and snap a few pics which are more than enough for note-taking purposes.

    Apple will never make a Macbook tablet officially, which is sort of unfortunate, as this leaves the Modbook Pro as the only true analogue to the Surface if you are a Mac user.
     
  38. aokman

    aokman Limp Gawd

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    Apple is slowly bring OSX and iOS closer together with each generation. Sooner or later they will be able to merge. Hardware wise Apple's silicon is almost ready to replace Intels completely with its impressive performance and Apple will have an insane control over their product from processor through to software. Personally I think we will see OSX running on their processors in the next few generations.
     
  39. Todd Walter

    Todd Walter Limp Gawd

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    Microsoft has been trying to make tablets ubiquitous since the Palm Pilot days with their 'palm top' computing push. Look up HP 300LX for an example. There were also prior models that ran GEOS for those old enough to remember what that was!
     
  40. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    Facetious or not I dont really agree with these kind of arguments. I dont give credit to an invention until it is done right. It's like people touting the first EV back in the 80's or whatever. Well those EV's sucked and would have never caught on anyway so they were pointless. Tesla is the first manufacturer to do it right and do it well, and as a result they will forever be associated with producing the first successful EV. Same with tablets, whatever garbage Microsoft designed decades ago has been forgotten because it was awful. Apple did it right with the iPad. Obviously technology had to catch up for something like the iPad to work, but they were the first to make a tablet people actually wanted to use, and then came all the followers.

    Personally I think the surface pro sucks. I had an SP3 for a few months and there was zero desire for me to remove it from the dock. The kickstand is clumsy, cannot be effectively used on your lap, and they keyboard just always felt off to me. I ended up donating it to someone else and getting an ultrabook instead. I havent tried the iPad pro but something tells me Apple probably did it better. I'll see if they have one at best buy or something to play with.

    Full disclosure: i own no apple products. Android phone, android watch, dell ultrabook, etc. But I do give credit where credit is deserved.