Microsoft being more transparent with telemetry data use.

This won't win over the hardcore Windows 10 haters though (and you know who you are LOL). Those people want every scrap of telemetry data to be revealed. We all know what the chances of that are. Some will see this as a start. Notice I didn't say "good" start.

None of this news bugs me, I'm on Win 10 on all my desktops/laptops.
 
Of course it's backlash, but it won't help at this point and by "help" I mean Microsoft's already tarnished public image by perception of their practices nor increasing market share for Windows 10 by any great leaps and bounds.

Nothing for anyone to see here, move along, move along. :D
 
I still don't understand why Microsoft insist on receiving telemetry from everyone. Why do they care if a minor percentage of their hardcore/enthusiast users turn off telemetry. They can collect all the data they want from someone who doesn't know or care.
 
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bigdogchris said:
I still don't understand why Microsoft insist on receiving telemetry from everyone. Why do they care if a minor percentage of their hardcore/enthusiast users turn off telemetry. They can collect all the data they want from someone who doesn't know or care.
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They don't, that's why there's easy steps to disable it. And look, I've lobbied for an off switch simply because of the insane paranoia that some are generating over this issue. But make it a simple switch and that is a lot of telemetry that's going to be lost. But in this case it's better to appease insanity than to feed it.
 
It's not just Win10, Microsoft backported some telemetry to win7/8. Get spybot anti-beacon.

https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/

Spybot Anti-Beacon is a standalone tool which was designed to block and stop the various tracking (telemetry) issues present in Windows 10. It has since been modified to block similar tracking functionality in Windows 7, Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 operating systems.
 
heatlesssun said:
They don't, that's why there's easy steps to disable it. And look, I've lobbied for an off switch simply because of the insane paranoia that some are generating over this issue. But make it a simple switch and that is a lot of telemetry that's going to be lost. But in this case it's better to appease insanity than to feed it.
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Even a switch under Privacy settings is going to be hidden from a lot of users. Non-technical users are not going to be digging through Settings looking for stuff.
 
bigdogchris said:
Even a switch under Privacy settings is going to be hidden from a lot of users. Non-technical users are not going to be digging through Settings looking for stuff.
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Yeah, but if it's not the default setting then some will scream how Microsoft is tricking people.
 
heatlesssun said:
They don't, that's why there's easy steps to disable it. And look, I've lobbied for an off switch simply because of the insane paranoia that some are generating over this issue. But make it a simple switch and that is a lot of telemetry that's going to be lost. But in this case it's better to appease insanity than to feed it.
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I get the impression you're attempting to baffle people with your bullshit. There is no official, built-in way of turning off telemetry, let alone an easy one.

Having to jump through a bunch of hoops with unofficial reg hacks, third party tools, firewall rules and hosts file entries for all of MS's creepy telemetry subdomains, then hoping it actually works and isn't leaking data and that Microsoft doesn't undo it all in the next update - is not "easy steps".

An Off switch is obviously what everyone's asking for, no getting around it. If the telemetry is as benign as MS and its financial coattail riders insist, then even with an Off switch there will still be more than enough data to "improve Windows" from the hundreds of millions of unsuspecting users, fanboys and Insiders running W10 with telemetry on blast.
 
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DPI said:
I get the impression you're attempting to baffle people with your bullshit. There is no official, built-in way of turning off telemetry, let alone an easy one.

Having to jump through a bunch of hoops with unofficial reg hacks, third party tools, firewall rules and hosts file entries for all of MS's creepy telemetry subdomains, then hoping it actually works and isn't leaking data and that Microsoft doesn't undo it all in the next update - is not "easy steps".

An Off switch is obviously what everyone's asking for, no getting around it. If the telemetry is as benign as MS and its financial coattail riders insist, then even with an Off switch there will still be more than enough data to "improve Windows" from the hundreds of millions of unsuspecting users, fanboys and Insiders running W10 with telemetry on blast.
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I get the impression he's asking to have them put in an "off switch", even if he doesn't think it's necessary, just so people can stop whining.

The easy step to disable it as far as I'm concerned is setting the telemetry service to disabled.
 
DPI said:
I get the impression you're attempting to baffle people with your bullshit. There is no official, built-in way of turning off telemetry, let alone an easy one.
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I never said there was a built in one. But the process is well documented: https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro...figure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization. All of the telemetry tools for 10 are based on the information provided here. But the bottom line is easy as noted here: http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-collection-in-windows-10/. This doesn't turn off Windows Update or Defender which you'd do in an enterprise setting.

I think it's better to talk about facts and documented processes than just paranoid suspicions and innuendo.
 
bigdogchris said:
I get the impression he's asking to have them put in an "off switch", even if he doesn't think it's necessary, just so people can stop whining.

The easy step to disable it as far as I'm concerned is setting the telemetry service to disabled.
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I'm not saying the off switch isn't necessary. It's necessary to help calm some folks down who are just talking out their side of their heads with one conspiracy theory after another. But nothing will appease these folks so for more rational folks the option would be nice. But remember, that would still me a good deal of the basic diagnostic data still being collected through Windows Update and Defender. I don't think people get that those two things have been phoning home FOREVER. And the funny thing is I'm the Microsoft shill telling people, hey, you really never understood this telemetry process in the first place. It was there LONG before you started going ape shit.
 
Fact: there is no really good reason for the telemetry in the first place.

Fact: there is no really good reason for the telemetry to not be able to be opted out of or disabled completely with a simple option in a Control Panel or Settings panel.

Fact: this is never going to end no matter what Microsoft does to rationalize the collection of all that data they're claiming is being collected.
 
Tiberian said:
Fact: there is no really good reason for the telemetry in the first place.

Fact: there is no really good reason for the telemetry to not be able to be opted out of or disabled completely with a simple option in a Control Panel or Settings panel.

Fact: this is never going to end no matter what Microsoft does to rationalize the collection of all that data they're claiming is being collected.
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Telemetry about what you're doing on your computer, I can see the argument. Telemetry about their updates not installing on their own OS, well maybe you can make the argument they should know if their updates and software are failing.

If a Linux distro sent data back about failed updates would you guys care?
 
bigdogchris said:
Telemetry about what you're doing on your computer, I can see the argument. Telemetry about their updates not installing on their own OS, well maybe you can make the argument they should know if their updates and software are failing.

If a Linux distro sent data back about failed updates would you guys care?
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I all of the paranoia over this issue, I think the idea that the developer of something as complex and widely distributed as Windows has no legitimate technical need for any large scale real world usage metrics is absurd.
 
Elementary OS has an option for telemetry to be turned off with one click, why not Windows? The customer is always right so stop arguing with the customers and do what we fucking want! Oh, right, that is the cost of "free". :)
 
heatlesssun said:
I all of the paranoia over this issue, I think the idea that the developer of something as complex and widely distributed as Windows has no legitimate technical need for any large scale real world usage metrics is absurd.
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I get that, I'm just saying I can see the argument both ways.
 
bigdogchris said:
I get that, I'm just saying I can see the argument both ways.
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As can I, there's clearly two sides to this and that's inherent in any kind of automated telemetry. Like anything else there's risks and benefits. I just tire of the hyperbolic paranoia from people that have never written or had to debug code in their life.
 
If you need a tl;dr for their fluff piece:
https://www.askwoody.com/2017/micro...try-transparency-with-1966-basic-data-points/
1,966 telemetry points on "Basic".
Please, do tell me why you need 1,966 telemetry points to analyze crash data. :rolleyes:
Don't kid yourselves - the article is a fluff piece. It's their way of supplying an answer to the constant complaining about them collecting data and not revealing why and what for. Nothing more, nothing less.

bigdogchris said:
If a Linux distro sent data back about failed updates would you guys care?
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Big difference in how it would do it though, if it did.
1) It would ask you if it could.
2) You could refuse it.
3) You could analyze the source code to find out if it was sending the data it claimed - or something else.

IJS.
Windows used to do this...remember Error Reporting? It collected the errors and asked if it could send them. You could refuse, or oblige. You were not forced, it was not out of your hands. Again, big difference.
 
I'd rather have option to disable it. Or better yet it could ask if I want to enable telemetry like os x does.
 
Michaelius said:
I'd rather have option to disable it. Or better yet it could ask if I want to enable telemetry like os x does.
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Yep, it should have been opt-in from day one. Then, if all the MS fanboys and Insiders defending telemetry want so bad to bend over and spread for MS, that option would be available to them; the rest of us would be saved the drip-drip-drip of data leaking from our PCs.
 
Even the new 1703 "basic" level collects information that's hard to justify as "basic", including every program you run on your computer, when you run it, and how long you run it. As is, it should be opt-in.

If "basic" truly was, well, basic, then I'd be fine with it being turned on by default, with an opt-out available.

Of course that's not the case. Basic isn't basic and you can't opt-out in a supported manner without using a third-party program. Microsoft doesn't respect the user's clear preferences on this and resets the settings every so often, so you need to run Shutup10 (or whatever one you chose) every so often to turn the telemetry back off. It's goddamn infuriating. If I wasn't a gamer I would completely move to MacOS. As is, I'm just pissed off. I hate my OS vendor and vent about it in threads like this one.
 
I don't know why they don't just offer a subscription plan that gives completely anonymous use from Microsoft's end. Must be a lot more money in Ad targeting.
 
HeavensCloud said:
I don't know why they don't just offer a subscription plan that gives completely anonymous use from Microsoft's end. Must be a lot more money in Ad targeting.
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They do in the form of Enterprise and Education editions. For typical end users, honestly the privacy concerns just aren't the deal made of them in a place like this when everyone has a smartphone in their pocket.
 
Very common response.

Apple lets you opt-out of telemetry on both iOS and MacOS. Of course you can't opt out of Siri requests, app store downloads, etc, as they phone home as part of their core function, but Apple uses differential privacy to truly anonymize that information. Apple's business is selling hardware.

Microsoft doesn't let you opt-out on Windows Home or Pro, period. Microsoft's arrogance knows no bounds.

Google doesn't let you fully opt-out of their tracking and doesn't use differential privacy either. Their core business is selling ads. You can technically run Android without Google Play Services, but you lose a ton of functionality and nobody does it,
 
heatlesssun said:
They do in the form of Enterprise and Education editions. For typical end users, honestly the privacy concerns just aren't the deal made of them in a place like this when everyone has a smartphone in their pocket.
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Except, at least in the case of Android, the smartphone OS itself isn't doing the spying.

Spying is one thing, but an OS that's spying? That's purely unacceptable. The OS is the interface between the user and the machine, no more.
 
Well yeah, but that comes down to the distinction between Android itself and Google Play Services, which isn't particularly meaningful as Android is much less usable without it. Google isn't exactly a great example of respecting user privacy. Apple is, though.
 
schizo said:
Well yeah, but that comes down to the distinction between Android itself and Google Play Services, which isn't particularly meaningful as Android is much less usable without it.
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Subjective. Fact is, Android doesn't require google play. You can run Android and sideload apps all you want, there's still that choice. You can't do that with Windows 10.

Regardless, the "but Google does it" argument is weak and ultimately irrelevant, since running Windows doesn't require an Android device, and not everyone running Windows has an Android device. That Android exists and is popular does not create in windows users any obligation to give Microsoft a blank check to their PC.
 
DPI said:
Subjective. Fact is, Android doesn't require google play. You can run Android and sideload apps all you want, there's still that choice. You can't do that with Windows 10.
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Actually anyone can distribute a UWA, there's no need for the store and the ability to side load has been there since 8.1. And using an Android phone with Google Play? Sure, but what's the point

DPI said:
Regardless, the "but Google does it" argument is weak and ultimately irrelevant, since running Windows doesn't require an Android device, and not everyone running Windows has an Android device. That Android exists and is popular does not create in windows users any obligation to give Microsoft a blank check to their PC.
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The point is that more people than use desktops use smartphones and share personal data constantly to power the apps and services running on those phones. It's not a matter of "Google does it too" but of how data sharing and cloud services have fundamentally transformed how personal computing works. It's no longer just about local apps running with local data.
 
Yes you can sideload on WIndows 10-- and it's even enabled by default, since the anniversary update. Of course there are no appx packages available for download outside the store, so that's largely an academic distinction. I mean, none at all. Same as Android without Google Play. You can do that, but nobody actually does because it sucks.

Thing is none of that matters because whataboutism is not a legitimate argument. It's a logical fallacy, an absurd construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
 
heatlesssun said:
Actually anyone can distribute a UWA, there's no need for the store and the ability to side load has been there since 8.1. And using an Android phone with Google Play? Sure, but what's the point
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Apples v Oranges. UWP sideloading means little when it still requires WIndows 10 - an OS with spying baked into the core. That's the difference with Android, spying is NOT baked into the core OS. As for using Android but opting out of the Play store, a whole lot of people over at XDA running AOSP roms would be happy to share the point. Bottom line, it's an option with Android, not with Windows 10.

heatlesssun said:
The point is that more people than use desktops use smartphones and share personal data constantly to power the apps and services running on those phones. It's not a matter of "Google does it too" but of how data sharing and cloud services have fundamentally transformed how personal computing works. It's no longer just about local apps running with local data.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, what's trendy and popular has not created in longtime windows users any obligation to give Microsoft a blank check to their PCs, just because MS created a few half baked, me-too mobile and cloud apps that aren't particularly compelling or functional on the desktop.

We can keep going around and around, but until Microsoft addresses the lack of telemetry opt-out, Windows 7's numbers will continue to rise and calcify and 10 will remain a lame duck OS.
 
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As backed by DPI, the point missed here is that, as an OS, Android does not spy on it's users.

An OS should be no more than an interface between the user and the machine. Microsoft has overstepped the line.
 
BulletDust said:
As backed by DPI, the point missed here is that, as an OS, Android does not spy on it's users.
Click to expand...

Citation needed. And a mobile phone without apps and cloud services, no one uses that way, you might as well have a dumb phone.
 
DPI said:
As for using Android but opting out of the Play store, a whole lot of people over at XDA running AOSP roms would be happy to share the point. Bottom line, it's an option with Android, not with Windows 10.
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It must been an option with Windows 10 as enterprises will configure 10 like 7, no telemetry, no Windows Update, no Windows Defender.
 
heatlesssun said:
Citation needed. And a mobile phone without apps and cloud services, no one uses that way, you might as well have a dumb phone.
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The OS is open source, go through the code yourself. Citation isn't needed at all, this is just a well known fact.

The OS is perfectly usable with Google Play services. Once again, this sounds like the opinion of an individual with little Android experience.
 
BulletDust said:
The OS is perfectly usable with Google Play services. Once again, this sounds like the opinion of an individual with little Android experience.
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LOL! The whole point of smartphones today is connected apps and cloud services.
 
BulletDust said:
Using Windows 10 EE, an OS not realistically offered to the masses.
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Or just implementing the process manually. I have no idea why people say it isn't possible when there's a tons of guides and apps out there that show that it's entirely possible. Shut down Windows Update, Defender and telemetry services and blocking some IP addresses. Its the same process as with any version of Windows, but the Enterprise end Education editions formally support it with group policies.
 
heatlesssun said:
Or just implementing the process manually. I have no idea why people say it isn't possible when there's a tons of guides and apps out there that show that it's entirely possible. Shut down Windows Update, Defender and telemetry services and blocking some IP addresses. Its the same process as with any version of Windows, but the Enterprise end Education editions formally support it with group policies.
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Shut down Windows update? I hardly see that as a solution outside the enterprise environment.

heatlesssun said:
LOL! The whole point of smartphones today is connected apps and cloud services.
Click to expand...

Under Android applications are available from more than just the Play Store and there are solutions such as F-Droid that allow for the installation of open source software while propitiatory applications can be quite easily sideloaded to the phone, meaning you're still essentially able to use your phone as a smart phone without Gapps installed. Once again, the point is that as an OS Android does not spy on it's users.

I find it humorous how you state in a PM conversation with ManOfGod that I wasn't supposed to see how you believe I have to have the final say in any argument - Can't you see how you're every bit as bad? You drag arguments out with blatantly incorrect and misinformed information.
 
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