Microsoft announces Xbox 360 Price!

ryanrule said:
certain peripherals: controllers, cables, mem cars, etc. meat and potatoes if you will. other things like light guns, HD's, etc DONT sell so well.
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We don't agree on much, but ryanmule is definately right on this one.

That is why we rarely see niche games requiring peripherals like that anymore. They can't sell them. When is the last time you saw a light-gun game? House of the Dead 3?

If the HDD isn't standard, it probably won't sell well. That's not really important to Microsoft...they just want to be able to say "Well, you have the option" so they don't have to be bothered with it.
 
WickedAngel said:
We don't agree on much, but ryanmule is definately right on this one.

That is why we rarely see niche games requiring peripherals like that anymore. They can't sell them. When is the last time you saw a light-gun game? House of the Dead 3?

If the HDD isn't standard, it probably won't sell well. That's not really important to Microsoft...they just want to be able to say "Well, you have the option" so they don't have to be bothered with it.
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Now do you think the XBOX360 HD is for a Niche game ? Or is it more apt to include it in the meat and potatoes category ryanrule describes ? I mean if you are going to include the memory card in the meat and potatoes, I fail to see how the HD will not be.
 
WickedAngel said:
The only differences would be the loading methods, caching, and extra content availability. Those are extra features, not necessities.
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This is very very true and goes back to my original point. What now will seperate the 360 from the PS3? Most of the games will now come with the same set of features because neither of the basic systems will come with hard drives. Now, considering Sony's current market share and their huge library of existing games, is Xbox making a decision that will hurt them. I believe they are.
 
The majority of xbox owners only used the hard drive to save games on it. Cutting the hard drive out of the basic xbox 360 isn't much of a loss, saves Microsoft money on each losss they take per console sold.
 
Draax said:
Now do you think the XBOX360 HD is for a Niche game ? Or is it more apt to include it in the meat and potatoes category ryanrule describes ? I mean if you are going to include the memory card in the meat and potatoes, I fail to see how the HD will not be.
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Considering the price and the increase in the storage size on memory cards now, their smaller size, and lower price, the hard drive is hardly a necessity.

Edit: I'm also sure that Madcatz will come out with a memory card far less expensive than the Microsoft one.
 
Not having the HD as mandatory with every system is bad news bears.

What about things like anti-cheating auto updates for live? Do you just not get to play the game till you go out and buy a 100 dollar add on?
 
Draax said:
Please provide a source for this claim. Everyone I knew who owned a nintendo, also owned duck hunt and the light gun.
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That's because later Nintendos CAME with a light gun AND Duck Hunt.
 
Bobsaysthis said:
Not having the HD as mandatory with every system is bad news bears.
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Wrong. Like people have said already in this thread, the only real difference will be caching and loading times. Very few games will require a HD, such as FFXI.
 
Draax said:
Now do you think the XBOX360 HD is for a Niche game ? Or is it more apt to include it in the meat and potatoes category ryanrule describes ? I mean if you are going to include the memory card in the meat and potatoes, I fail to see how the HD will not be.
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It's niche in that it isn't necessary for what is going to be happening with the system.

You don't need extra content for games. It's sure as hell nice to have it, but it isn't going to make a game work any less efficiently.

Things like controllers are necessary. You can't play without them. The features of those controllers can be broken up in the same way, though. Wireless functionality is nice, but it is far from being a necessity.

I'm not dogging or anything; I just disagree on the importance of it.
 
Burnout 2
Capcom vs. SNK 2: E.O.
Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Tides of War
Ghost Recon
MechAssault
MotoGP Online
NBA 2K3
NFL 2K3
NFL Fever 2003
Phantasy Star Online (PSO)
Splinter Cell
Star Wars: The Clone Wars
Unreal Championship
Halo 2


Those were just some of the games that had auto-updates required to download before you signed into a session to play the game on live, now that there is no hd, where will those be stored when needed, and how is it not bad news that everyone gets them?
 
Draax said:
In addition it says no where that its not possible to get an update to output 1080p. As 1080i has the same fps as 1080p it is just displayed a different way. 1080i refreshes the full frame every 1/30th of a second so half the frame every 1/60th of a second. 1080p refreshes the whole frame every 1/60th of a second.

Edit : switched half for full
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You don't knwo what progressive scan is, obviously. It is impossible to do software wise, it has to be hardware. if it's not there now, it can't just appear without an entirely new chip being put in.
 
himmy said:
You don't knwo what progressive scan is, obviously. It is impossible to do software wise, it has to be hardware. if it's not there now, it can't just appear without an entirely new chip being put in.
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Please read my other post (Post #17), where I link to the difference between progressive and Interlaced. In addition are you of the knowledge that, through updates, the chip cannot be flashed to include different instructions to process 1080p through the output decoder chip? Or do you know that the instructions for 1080p are not there? Or are you speculating, just as I am, about the 1080p capabilities?
 
Bobsaysthis said:
Burnout 2
Capcom vs. SNK 2: E.O.
Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Tides of War
Ghost Recon
MechAssault
MotoGP Online
NBA 2K3
NFL 2K3
NFL Fever 2003
Phantasy Star Online (PSO)
Splinter Cell
Star Wars: The Clone Wars
Unreal Championship
Halo 2


Those were just some of the games that had auto-updates required to download before you signed into a session to play the game on live, now that there is no hd, where will those be stored when needed, and how is it not bad news that everyone gets them?
Click to expand...

A single memory card could likely hold all of those updates.
 
WickedAngel said:
That's still not bad for a system housing a GPU that should cost $500+ alone :rolleyes:
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7800GTX's are lower than that now. By the time this rolls out, it will be even cheaper.

How hard is it to dial in common sense and know that comparing today's cost to tomorrow's cost is stupid?
 
WickedAngel said:
Do you have any source other than a website that got its news from a misinformed website?

It's funny how PC fanbitches have now latched onto this. They were utterly wrong about the power of the X360. Then they were wrong about the price. I guess they need something else to be wrong about.

I wouldn't see the problem with the standard version not having it, either way. People who want XBL will want the HDD for extra content, so they'll opt for the more expensive version.
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While not on the topic of pricing, would John Carmacks commentary on the hype of these consoles and the "rule of half" come into play? He basically said that the "power" of these systems is not what they are hyped to be...but that is not really relevant. Given that it isn't out yet, the only thing the PC fanbitches might be wrong about is that they are still overestimating it's power. The only arguement for power and pricing should simply be how amazing it is that you get what you do for such a good price. X360 and PS3 may be more powerful now then today's PC's (On paper, that is), by the time they come out, the PC will be far ahead. Either way, I don't know what the problem is, given that they will cost less than a upper end video card, why not have both. THey aren't mutually exclusive, unless you don't have the time to play games for both, a problem I am starting to have even on my PC alone.

As for price, I again don't know why anyone expected these consoles to be priced at a point that was much higher then the last generation. While it is true that if Sony released the PS3 at $600, it would probably still do very well, both Sony and MS, as stated, sell consoles at a huge loss because they make their money on the sale of software. If Nvidia, Intel, etc. made royalties on software that you ran on their hardware, the price of PC Components, which are generally overpriced to begin with, would plummet. XBOX360 at $299 is not a suprise, with or without HD. XBOX360 at $399 wouldn't be a suprise. XBOX360 at $500+ WOULD be a suprise, in my opinion, as it is simply too much based on the console market economics.
 
Draax said:
Thats great, doesn't change the fact that peripherals are a multi million and billion dollar indsutry. I very clearly provided the figures.
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You keep repeating this. Please stop, as everytime you do it shows just how dumb you are. In no way is the money they make as an industry related to the % of market share they have.

They coudl make 189 trillion dollars, and still have less than 5% of the market, so developers will not be supporting their product.

Christ, how hard is that to understand?

Also, stop badgering him of the 'proof.' He has already said it will take some time for him to look it up, so STFU and wait for it.
 
Draax said:
Now do you think the XBOX360 HD is for a Niche game ? Or is it more apt to include it in the meat and potatoes category ryanrule describes ? I mean if you are going to include the memory card in the meat and potatoes, I fail to see how the HD will not be.
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As has already been pointed out numerous times, the original XBox shows that it does not sell well, and because of that developers do not program with it in mind.
 
Draax said:
Please read my other post (Post #17), where I link to the difference between progressive and Interlaced. In addition are you of the knowledge that, through updates, the chip cannot be flashed to include different instructions to process 1080p through the output decoder chip? Or do you know that the instructions for 1080p are not there? Or are you speculating, just as I am, about the 1080p capabilities?
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If it is not there, it is not there, period. You really have no clue as to what you are talkign about and are just pickign fights left and right in this thread. For the love of God just STFU.
 
Draax said:
It amazes me how some people can change the definition of a word, on the fly, to suit there own needs. I mean common, you ask for proof, I give you multiple sources, you discredit it by changing the defintion of peripherals and offer no sources, or credible information of any sort, make up figures, and still claim to be right. :rolleyes:
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I'm sorry that I missed this comment. No, I am not changing the definition. You are warping industry reports to claim apples are the same as oranges.

I am refering to peripherals that are within the scope of this argument. Aftermarket controllers are not within that scope, they are replicas of what comes with the system. If something does not come with the system, or is not required for every game that comes with the system, i.e. memory card, TV, and electricity, then it is an additional peripheral that is not seperated out by those reports and, obvoiusly, it is those peripherals, not required, that we are talking about.

You attempted to broaden the definition of what I was talking about to make it sound like additional or replacement controllers are somehow the same as add on HDs and somehow accounted for a great amount of those peripheral sales figures.
 
WickedAngel said:
A single memory card could likely hold all of those updates.
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Maybe, but it would still be a single memory card you'd be required to buy, and not everyone will own.
 
If you buy the basic xbox 360 package you will need to either get the hard drive or a memory card to save your games. This is nothing new, both the ps1 and ps2 required it.
 
himmy said:
If it is not there, it is not there, period. You really have no clue as to what you are talkign about and are just pickign fights left and right in this thread. For the love of God just STFU.
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Thre posts in a row and you tell me to stfu ? Consolidation for teh win.

Another thing which was brought up, was that MS and Sony take a loss on the console and make it up in licensing for games.

Well the fact that peripherals are treated much different this time around, in that peripheral manufactourers must pay MS to get a license and pay royalities, should give you a clue that peripherals are a money making industry.

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/4866/


from the link said:
Worried about selling their new Xbox 360 consoles to early adopters at a loss to themselves, Microsoft is looking into ways to increase the profitibility of their console once it launches later this year. According to CNET, one option the company is looking at includes introducing a new royalty program that third party accessory/peripheral vendors will have to apply to, in order to sell peripherals for the Xbox 360
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Ya microsoft is probably doing this for no reason at all, after all peripherals are a money losing deal right ? :rolleyes:
 
himmy said:
You don't knwo what progressive scan is, obviously. It is impossible to do software wise, it has to be hardware. if it's not there now, it can't just appear without an entirely new chip being put in.
Click to expand...

Which is why I said that they would (at worst) have to use another encoding chip.
 
Draax said:
Thre posts in a row and you tell me to stfu ? Consolidation for teh win.

Another thing which was brough up, was that MS and Sony take a loss on the console and make it up in licensing for games.

Well the fact that peripheral licensing is much different this time around, in that peripheral manufactourers must pay MS to get a license, should give you a clue that peripherals are a money making industry. Ya microsoft is probably doing this for no reason at all :rolleyes:

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/4866/

It amazes me that the proof is staring you all in the face, and you chose to ignore it.
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No, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. You are trying to prove something that is completely irrelevent to this conversation. Yes, they will have to purchase licences to make peripherals, however, this still has nothing to do with the fact that developers do not make games for peripherals that do not come with the system. Madcatz could be making billions in replacement controllers and memory cards but that would still completely and 100% irrelevant to this conversation. This conversation was discussing whether or not it was a good idea for Microsoft to not include the Hard Drive with the basic model and the effect it would have on the games that were made for the system and if it impacted its ability to compete with the PS3. Now, seriously, why you are trying to prove that people are indeed making money selling periperals for systems completely blows my mind.

Edit: To restate my opinion that my have led you on this misguided crusade, I believe that this decision will make the Hard Drive an unnecessary peripheral that developers will not program for and that people will, by and large, not buy.
 
HHunt said:
Which is why I said that they would (at worst) have to use another encoding chip.
(If I'm the other one, that is.)
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You are right on the money, no worries. Draxx on the other hand.......
 
The BASIC WILL COME WITH A HDD.

ALL THE NEWS IDIOTS ARE USING THE SAME AP IDIOT STORY. AP IS STUPID AS ARE THE TARDS THAT DON'T CHECK THEIR FACTS BEFORE RUNNING A STORY.
 
Defective said:
No, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. You are trying to prove something that is completely irrelevent to this conversation.
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This is from your first post, where you critcize MS for not inlcuding a HD

Defective said:
Consumers, in general, do not purchase peripherals for game systems beyond an extra controller
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You are entirely wrong, and I have proved it over and over, the issue was if people would buy this harddrive, yes they will.
 
Defective said:
Yes, they will have to purchase licences to make peripherals, however, this still has nothing to do with the fact that developers do not make games for peripherals that do not come with the system. .
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PS2 did not come with a hard drive yet FFXI requires one..and people bought it. Seeing as FFXI is being made for xbox360 it obviously shows that developers ARE willing to support peripherals that do not come with the system.
 
Tiny said:
The BASIC WILL COME WITH A HDD.

ALL THE NEWS IDIOTS ARE USING THE SAME AP IDIOT STORY. AP IS STUPID AS ARE THE TARDS THAT DON'T CHECK THEIR FACTS BEFORE RUNNING A STORY.
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More idiots.

It is from the press release that MS themselves released to the press. This is from MS themselves.
 
Genocidal[v2] said:
PS2 did not come with a hard drive yet FFXI requires one..and people bought it. Seeing as FFXI is being made for xbox360 it obviously shows that developers ARE willing to support peripherals that do not come with the system.
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It was an exageration for me to say that no developers program for it. How many hard drives did they sell that did not come with FFXI? What other games use it? Very, very few.
 
Defective said:
It was an exageration for me to say that no developers program for it. How many hard drives did they sell that did not come with FFXI? What other games use it? Very, very few.
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Which is exactly why Microsoft isn't going to include the hard drive in the basic Xbox360 package. Very few games will NEED the hard drive. Why include one in every system if not everyone will need it?
 
I shoulda known this was going to degenerate into a slag fest, lol. Another xbox360 thread where the claws are sharpened, the drool is hanging and the gutteral growls and icelike stares push this thread into the 10 page realm in almost no time flat...

<<---- me gets popcorn :D
 
Draax said:
This is from your first post, where you critcize MS for not inlcuding a HD



You are entirely wrong, and I have proved it over and over, the issue was if people would buy this harddrive, yes they will.
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Really? I am entirely wrong? So you are saying that the market for peripherals that are not controllers and memory cards is that huge? Well then I guess the sales figures for the games that use those specialized peripherals should be sky high right?

Have you even looked at Mad Catz catalog to see what they sell? With few exceptions they either make controllers, memory cards, cables, and cases for game systems. Have you bothered to look at the same catalogs for Nyko and other peripheral manufacturers? My guess is no. You tell me how what they sell relates to hard drives.
 
Their are other factors of FF that brought this about though, like it being an MMO and being on the computer....
 
himmy said:
More idiots.

It is from the press release that MS themselves released to the press. This is from MS themselves.
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omg d00d MS IS TEH DIOITS !!
 
Genocidal[v2] said:
Which is exactly why Microsoft isn't going to include the hard drive in the basic Xbox360 package. Very few games will NEED the hard drive. Why include one in every system if not everyone will need it?
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Because then few will buy it, not only that, games that require it will not sell well. Therefore, most games will not be programed to include features for it. If you are a developer, why would you waste the money developing for a feature that most 360 owners wont have?

Not selling it with the basic package is removing a feature from the system. When people look to buy their next system they will be looking at those features. Microsoft still has an uphill battle ahead of it. Removing features may not be such a good idea.
 
Bobsaysthis said:
Not having the HD as mandatory with every system is bad news bears.

What about things like anti-cheating auto updates for live? Do you just not get to play the game till you go out and buy a 100 dollar add on?
Click to expand...

Pfft, there are no updates on consoles, they ship working product. No need for patches and updates.

I think it is safe to say the MS knows marketing and the PC industry. They are turning the console into an upgradeable platform much like the PC software and hardware. And why not, its a genius idea. We got to stop thinking of these things as consoles and start seeing them as modular computers.

Whats the big deal anyway? 100 isnt that much and if it comes with one then bonus. Extra controllers will probibly run you 25, right? Xbox headsets are still like 20.
 
Defective said:
Have you even looked at Mad Catz catalog to see what they sell? With few exceptions they either make controllers, memory cards, cables, and cases for game systems.
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Few exceptions? Take a look at the products listed for the xbox. 6 Products are controllers/memory cards, and 9 are wheels, headsets, dancemats,etc. That means only 40% of the products they sell for xbox are controllers or memory cards. THat is more then a few exceptions.
Have you bothered to look at the same catalogs for Nyko and
other peripheral manufacturers? My guess is no. You tell me how what they sell relates to hard drives.
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4 out of the 11 products are controllers. 36% of the products they sell are controllers.

The sales of peripheral companies relate directly, because the HD for the 360 is a peripheral.

No where, on either site, does it list specific products sales as a percentage of total revenue, but if you can find something, anything to support your claims, im more then happy to give it a read through.
 
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