Microsoft Announces Surface Book

[westrock2000]

Its obliviously going to have a U dual-core mobile proc.

Please explain how its not a real i7? Intel created the i7 brand as the high-end processor, if its the fastest U/M processor it get the i7 branding.

Its not rocket science its marketing.

You have to admit that the initial "marketing" of the i series was based on features.

i3 were basic, generally 2 cores, 4 threads.
i5 usually usually 4 cores, 4 threads
i7 usually 4 cores, 8 threads.

This of course was in the desktop environment, but the features were more clear cut. You could have an i7 that was clocked lower, or performed lower then the top i5 model. But the features are what set it apart. As time has gone on, especially in the mobile market the distinction has gone away between the class lines.

 

[Armisael]

Windows 10 less "tablet-y" than 8.1? Not really. 10 is no harder to use as on tablet than 8.x but the tablet and desktop were better integrated and some of the "tablet-y" changed. Some things were left out from 8.1 but some of that is being added back in and showing up in the latest builds.

What's coming back? I don't appreciate what they did to the brightness controls, and even the most diehard W10 fan has to admit that they crippled metro onenote.

 

[Spidey329]

So.. I mean that looks dead on like a macbook pro retina 13". I mean the similarities are uncanny. They made the keys are grey instead of black, but that touch pad, the lip for you to open the lid. The entire body style.

Quick glance I would struggle to tell the difference other than the grey keys. Sure I can find little nuances with the hinge area being very different, and obviously this is a convertible, but somebody inside microsoft had to say "make it look like a macbook, but change a little so we don't get sued".

Do you blame them? People don't usually say that Apple doesn't design nice things (it's literally the one thing they do .. " Designed in Cupertino").

Problem with MS for years has been they lacked a really premium OEM that did just a few models and nailed those models (like Apple did). They're trying to do that and reposition these official products as the top-tier of premium for Windows. They found their niche for tablets (stock x86 Windows) to fit between the iOS/Android. I don't see much hope for their Mobile OS unless they do their own Android spin-off/emulator or something revolutionary hardware wise. They've sat too long and no-one needs an x86 phone, so that wouldn't work in the phone market.

 

[heatlesssun]

What's coming back? I don't appreciate what they did to the brightness controls, and even the most diehard W10 fan has to admit that they crippled metro onenote.

When in split screen, the ability to launch and app and select the side it runs on as well as keeping the split when switching between apps. As for the brightness control, the presets are nice buy simply clicking tapping on the Action Center button. It would be nice to be able to have user defined presents for those. But having to go into settings to manually adjust is a bit of a pain. I've sent feedback requesting user defined presets.

As for modern OneNote, if you're referring to the Win32 Office apps versus the mobile versions, the Win32 versions are clearly more powerful. I rarely use the mobile version of OneNote but I pretty much live in the Win32 version. And the Win32 version of OneNote is one of the best Win32 apps out there for both desktop and tablet operation IMO.

 

[heatlesssun]

Problem with MS for years has been they lacked a really premium OEM that did just a few models and nailed those models (like Apple did). They're trying to do that and reposition these official products as the top-tier of premium for Windows. They found their niche for tablets (stock x86 Windows) to fit between the iOS/Android. I don't see much hope for their Mobile OS unless they do their own Android spin-off/emulator or something revolutionary hardware wise. They've sat too long and no-one needs an x86 phone, so that wouldn't work in the phone market.

And here's the thing. It might look a bit like a MacBook yet isn't anything at all like a MacBook. Apple swears for now that they'll never do anything like a x86 Windows 10 hybrid device.

As for mobile, that'll be tough. But honestly who's making money in handsets besides Apple and to a much lesser extent Samsung. An Android handset would hardly matter at this point. Microsoft just needs to break even on handsets and have some type of mobile market to combine with the Store. Having some type of ecosystem that works across all types of devices is much more important than the small change to be made on handsets. As Microsoft is delivering its services and apps to iOS and Android there's no need to make handsets for where Microsoft would be make money there anyway.

 

[ccman]

Windows 10 less "tablet-y" than 8.1? Not really. 10 is no harder to use as on tablet than 8.x but the tablet and desktop were better integrated and some of the "tablet-y" changed. Some things were left out from 8.1 but some of that is being added back in and showing up in the latest builds. The Surface Book is just another version of the folding keyboard hybrid design that's been around forever, long before the iPad and Android tablets. But the Surface Book clearly is a hybrid of the "laptop first and tablet second" variety. But this isn't a laptop it's a hybrid meant to be used as a tablet at least some of the time. You don't go to all of this effort with that hinge or dual CPU and splitting out the compute components simply for a laptop.

Yes tablet sales have slowed. The 2 in 1 category has been growing though. That's why the emphasis from multiple companies on these devices. That plus they draw top dollar.

From pg 12 of [H]ard|Forum > Bits & Bytes > Operating Systems > Windows 10: Your thoughts so far?

Windows 10 overall I think overall is a better hybrid OS than 8 though the tablet side isn't as elegant.

First, "less tablet-y" is not a real thing. Second, I can't speak to the latest builds of Windows 10. I'm on the release version. I wasn't being serious about my comments beginning with "Also..." and ending with "where's the Windows button". Honestly, the Surface Book looks like an impressive piece of hardware. I won't be buying one, but I am glad Microsoft and its OEM partners are innovating and taking the lead on what had become stagnant that primarily Apple had been innovating. It's awesome that the device can switch between an iGPU and a dGPU.

 

[heatlesssun]

From pg 12 of [H]ard|Forum > Bits & Bytes > Operating Systems > Windows 10: Your thoughts so far?



First, "less tablet-y" is not a real thing. Second, I can't speak to the latest builds of Windows 10. I'm on the release version. I wasn't being serious about my comments beginning with "Also..." and ending with "where's the Windows button". Honestly, the Surface Book looks like an impressive piece of hardware. I won't be buying one, but I am glad Microsoft and its OEM partners are innovating and taking the lead on what had become stagnant that primarily Apple had been innovating. It's awesome that the device can switch between an iGPU and a dGPU.

I said less elegant. And by that I mean that 8.x really was two separate UIs and the tablet UI in 8.x was a more elegant tablet UI. Windows 10 really is one UI that has different modes. Not as elegant but much more consistent. And as I pointed out Microsoft is working on the tablet side of things to help here. The split screen launching was kind of cool thing in 8.1 that got left out of the 10 RTM that's coming back it seems. 10 is going to see a lot of change over it's lifespan more so than prior versions of Windows so these types of things are constantly evolving.

 

[ccman]

I said less elegant. And by that I mean that 8.x really was two separate UIs and the tablet UI in 8.x was a more elegant tablet UI. Windows 10 really is one UI that has different modes. Not as elegant but much more consistent. And as I pointed out Microsoft is working on the tablet side of things to help here. The split screen launching was kind of cool thing in 8.1 that got left out of the 10 RTM that's coming back it seems. 10 is going to see a lot of change over it's lifespan more so than prior versions of Windows so these types of things are constantly evolving.

Ok fine. Windows 10 is the most tablet-y Windows operating system ever.

 

[nb14]

YES! TBF no matter what you think about apple, thier macbooks are the holy grail for other laptops makers to look to. MS is stepping it up.

 

[heatlesssun]

YES! TBF no matter what you think about apple, thier macbooks are the holy grail for other laptops makers to look to. MS is stepping it up.

They have a classic design. Again, I don't know exactly how hunks of aluminum and or magnesium alloy would look otherwise. If this were a conventional laptop then sure, Microsoft copied Apple on the look. Considering how radically different this is from anything Apple makes I think it's more coincidence than actually copying in this case. But sure, it's from that same classic block of metal look that Apple created.

 

[RandemTox]

Radically different?

It has a touch-screen and the keyboard comes off.

Apple made touch-screen devices workable long before Microsoft (Windows Mobile was only usable with a stylus, even if the screen could recognize finger input, and TabletPC only recognizes pens on an active digitizer - touch was not a factor).

Removable keyboards long pre-date Microsoft having much of an impact on anything.

 

[RandemTox]

I'd go for a Surface Pro 4 or Surface Book (I hate the name) ... but for two things:

1. I'm long since done with the nonsense that is managing a Windows machine properly for personal use.

2. I prefer my hardware not to ship requiring the "Heatlesjizz Removal Kit".

I remember around the launch of the iPad someone getting banned for FAR less fanboy-ism than you consistently demonstrate. Enjoy the Windows/Microsoft circle-jerk. I'm out.

 

[heatlesssun]

Radically different?

It has a touch-screen and the keyboard comes off.

It's an x86 desktop OS hybrid with a discrete GPU, touchscreen and pen support. That's radically different from anything that Apple makes.

Apple made touch-screen devices workable long before Microsoft (Windows Mobile was only usable with a stylus, even if the screen could recognize finger input, and TabletPC only recognizes pens on an active digitizer - touch was not a factor).

Apple wasn't making capacitive touch screen devices at the time of Windows CE's introduction.

Removable keyboards long pre-date Microsoft having much of an impact on anything.

Again, radically different from anything Apple makes. Removable keyboards and hybrid devices were a part of Windows Tablet PCs of almost 15 years ago. The Surface Pro and Surface Book trace their heritage back to those devices. They are modern incarnations of the Tablet PC. I'm not saying that Microsoft is doing anything new here. What will make a break the Surface Book as far as hybrids go is that hinge and how well the conversion works. That historically has been problematic for these devices.

 

[Ur_Mom]

And here's the thing. It might look a bit like a MacBook yet isn't anything at all like a MacBook. Apple swears for now that they'll never do anything like a x86 Windows 10 hybrid device.

They also said no stylus. They just got the Apple Pencil.

They have a classic design. Again, I don't know exactly how hunks of aluminum and or magnesium alloy would look otherwise. If this were a conventional laptop then sure, Microsoft copied Apple on the look. Considering how radically different this is from anything Apple makes I think it's more coincidence than actually copying in this case. But sure, it's from that same classic block of metal look that Apple created.

Maybe not a direct copy. But, it was the 'flagship' model that others aspired to look to for inspiration. Denying that the Surface team didn't take any inspiration or ideas from the Macbook Air (and a lot more than just the slab of metal look) would be a huge mistake.

 

[Armisael]

As for the brightness control, the presets are nice buy simply clicking tapping on the Action Center button. It would be nice to be able to have user defined presents for those. But having to go into settings to manually adjust is a bit of a pain. I've sent feedback requesting user defined presets.

What's the advantage of presets over a slider? It isn't like it matters whether you're at 73% or 75%, and a slider lets you make the screen less bright without making it more bright first. It seems like a decision that was made with aesthetics as the driver and almost no concern for function.

As for modern OneNote, if you're referring to the Win32 Office apps versus the mobile versions, the Win32 versions are clearly more powerful. I rarely use the mobile version of OneNote but I pretty much live in the Win32 version. And the Win32 version of OneNote is one of the best Win32 apps out there for both desktop and tablet operation IMO.

They removed pinch to zoom, the utility wheel, and the ability to rotate selections from the mobile version. They're such basic things.

 

[heatlesssun]

They also said no stylus. They just got the Apple Pencil.

It's only a matter of time before Apple makes a true hybrid device. Many say it will be iOS based and I think that's probably how Apple will go as making OS X hybrid OS would bring a number of issues similar to the ones that Windows 8.x and to some extent Windows 10 face.

But at some point maybe the market might dictate otherwise. The Apple Pencil was market driven because, and I know that many people don't see it this way, the option had to be there for a device of that size and price. Panos Panay said in his presentation that 50% of Surface Pro users use the pen. Maybe he was blowing smoke but considering how prolific digital pens have become they have to see more use than some are saying.

Maybe not a direct copy. But, it was the 'flagship' model that others aspired to look to for inspiration. Denying that the Surface team didn't take any inspiration or ideas from the Macbook Air (and a lot more than just the slab of metal look) would be a huge mistake.

I'm not saying they didn't take some cues. But the cues came from deeper places. Magnesium alloy construction was clearly an attempt to copy the industrial engineering of Apple products using a different material with similar characteristics. Once you start making stuff out hunks of similar materials all I am saying of course there are going to be similarities.

 

[heatlesssun]

What's the advantage of presets over a slider? It isn't like it matters whether you're at 73% or 75%, and a slider lets you make the screen less bright without making it more bright first. It seems like a decision that was made with aesthetics as the driver and almost no concern for function.

I think the presets are simply faster. I think the driving force was consistency. Windows 8.x was two UIs, Windows 10 really is one that adapts modes which is a better way to do a hybrid OS I think.

They removed pinch to zoom, the utility wheel, and the ability to rotate selections from the mobile version. They're such basic things.

The semantic zoom was nice and an example of greater elegance in Windows 8.x. But I also think this was the type of thing that confused the hell of some people because of the lack visual cues. Time and time again people complained about the lack of visual cues, even on the table side. It could very well be considered a step back but when you have so many people complaining about not being able to do simply everyday things I don't think Microsoft had a lot of choice. Not sure what you mean by the utility wheel or ability to rotate selections.

 

[pxc]

You have to admit that the initial "marketing" of the i series was based on features.

i3 were basic, generally 2 cores, 4 threads.
i5 usually usually 4 cores, 4 threads
i7 usually 4 cores, 8 threads.

The i7 naming scheme was introduced in late 2008 for desktop processors first. Less than a year later, in September 2009, the first i7 quad core "QM" mobile processors came out. In January 2010, the first i7 dual core "M" mobile processors were released.

It's October 2015 now, so this is nearly a 5 year old naming convention. Quad core i7 mobiles have used Q (or X and now K) to designate that, and dual core i7 mobiles do not use those. Is it going to take another 5 years for people to understand this naming convention?

 

[ccman]

Let me just say this and be done with it. To those saying it looks like Microsoft copied Apple's designs: don't judge a Book by its Surface

 

[heatlesssun]

Let me just say this and be done with it. To those saying it looks like Microsoft copied Apple's designs: don't judge a Book by its Surface

LOL! Good one.

 

[Armisael]

Not sure what you mean by the utility wheel or ability to rotate selections.

When you select something you've drawn, you used to be able to both scale it and rotate it. Now you can only scale it.

The wheel (whatever it's called - I don't know the official name for it) had options for changing pen/eraser settings and copying and pasting. The pen/eraser settings were moved to a bar on the top of the screen, which is fine, but there isn't any fast way to copy-paste when using the pen. You have to either do a long press with your finger for both of them (this opens the keyboard, for no apparent reason) or open the keyboard, change it to keys (instead of handwriting recognition) and hit the shortcut.

I wouldn't normally bag on an OS so much for one app, but it's so important for the surface, and the pen is hardlocked to open the modern version.

I'd also like to be able to go to my desktop in tablet mode, but I assume that was too confusing or aesthetically displeasing or something.

 

[Flogger23m]

Tablet with a dedicated GPU...this is what I've been waiting ages for...well worth the price premium if it delivers, and I truly believe it will. I'm thinking the $1,899.00 model, with the i5-dGPU-8gb RAM-256gb storage will be the sweet spot. I'm going to wait though, and see the exact model of dGPU offered, and if it varies between the price points. If the i7-dGPU-16gb RAM-512gb storage one has a better GPU, then my wallet will be about $3000 lighter in the coming months.

If its in "tablet form" you won't have the GPU as it is in the keyboard unit. If you're going to attach the screen flat down it will be so bulky that you won't want to carry it around. Which brings the question:

Why?

 

[heatlesssun]

If its in "tablet form" you won't have the GPU as it is in the keyboard unit. If you're going to attach the screen flat down it will be so bulky that you won't want to carry it around. Which brings the question:

Why?

There is a lot of history to these devices that really are nothing more than modern versions of the Windows XP Tablet PC concept. Much of what Microsoft has done with the Surface line comes out of long standing requests from this group. A discrete GPU in the keyboard dock is a long standing idea, I believe it's been done in other devices but not like this.

This is a massive tablet when detached from the keyboard at 13.5" blowing well past even the iPad Pro. Tablets of this size aren't going to be held for long periods of time even though for their size they aren't all that heavy at just a bit over 1.5 lbs. each. Think Wacom Cintiq, productivity tablets that are used mostly on a desk. The Surface Book is a laptop first and a tablet second. One would use it here and there as a standalone tablet for reading or surfing on the couch or a game but most of the time this will be on a desk even when used as a tablet.

 

[nilepez]

Just pre-ordered one, i7/dGPU/16 GB/512 GB. There is not 1 TB model listed like the SP4 unfortunately. Pricy, the config I order is $2699. But if it's as good as looks and performs like I hope, not bad for what it is. Again, I think Microsoft is treading lightly with it's OEMs and wanting to hit a premium pricing spot with it's machines.

tax write off? I might be interested, but I won't worry about it until they're in the MS stores. I'll have to see what apps exist. If it doesn't have the apps I want, then i'd probably get a laptop and an iPad mini. I'll tool around the app store between now and the end of the month.

 

[krotch]

I'll probably get one, but I'll also wait to see if any problems occur. MS isn't really ever great with first release, it's usually the next iterations that are much better. I worry about that weird hinge.

 

[daglesj]

Just hoping this makes the other lazy OEMs up their game. I hate all those horrible nasty plastic bloatware devices.

Now MS can you produce a good standard no nonsense laptop with 8GB ram, 1080p IPS screen and 256GB SSD option for a more everyday price?

 

[daglesj]

Also disappointed but not surprised at the muted to nil response on the news and tech sites about all this. Apple brings out a big iPad and the world wets itself. Big Whoop!

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Also disappointed but not surprised at the muted to nil response on the news and tech sites about all this. Apple brings out a big iPad and the world wets itself. Big Whoop!

Well, there's really nothing at all to get excited about. It's a transition design between a useful laptop and a media consumption screen (tablet) that copies ideas from companies Asus from their Transformer and goes for the Macbook look/pricing to appeal to people who have a Windows tattoo on their left booty-cheek, but still want to pay a lot for fairly useless hardware in order to show off to family and coworkers who really don't care, but will listen because they're a captive audience (and then go back to using their 3+ year old budget laptop). The only thing it really does is announce to the world that Microsoft has acknowledged that tablets are a dead end in the productivity space and that they're moving one more step away from them (with the first step being Windows 10's abandonment of forcing the Start Screen thing-y and a reduced pushing of their fairly tepid clone of Apple and Alphabet's app stores).

 

[zaniix]

I think this will be one of the best products from Microsoft in a long time. I am interested in seeing how the weight of it feels when in use. Can you use this in your lap like a laptop or are you stuck using it on a table only like the surface?

 

[bigstusexy]

Anyone else thing the guy sounded like a car salesman on crack?

 

[heatlesssun]

I think this will be one of the best products from Microsoft in a long time. I am interested in seeing how the weight of it feels when in use. Can you use this in your lap like a laptop or are you stuck using it on a table only like the surface?

There are so short video previews of people trying it on the lap and it looks like it's pretty good. It's top heavy so that will no doubt be a problem for some but it should work much better than the Surface Pro kickstand this way.

 

[w00t69]

So.. I mean that looks dead on like a macbook pro retina 13". I mean the similarities are uncanny. They made the keys are grey instead of black, but that touch pad, the lip for you to open the lid. The entire body style.

Quick glance I would struggle to tell the difference other than the grey keys. Sure I can find little nuances with the hinge area being very different, and obviously this is a convertible, but somebody inside microsoft had to say "make it look like a macbook, but change a little so we don't get sued".

Microsoft helped develop another laptop for HP recently, the spectre x360. Look that up too...

It's on the left there...

 

[killboy]

My biggest issue is that they announced that you could get 1 TB of storage space for the Surface Pro however you can't order 1 TB of space on the Surface Book.

Seriously? I've had 1 TB of storage in my Macbook Pro for 2 years already! I'm not going to downgrade in storage space with a new laptop. Get your shit together MS.

 

[thedocta45]

You're right; I'm an idiot. The i7-6560U or i7-6500U are definitely worthy of holding the i7 tag over an i5-6360U.

I understand that TDP is an added complexity with branding of mobile processors, but Intel does a piss poor job of it in my opinion. It's pure deception... opps, I mean marketing.

At the U level its more about cache that differentiates the units not clock or cores.

Its slightly deceptive to average consumers who automatically equate an i7 with 4 cores and 8 threads.

But if you understand and know the processor branding its more cut and dry.

Do say its deceptive is kind of is but Intel never said an i7 was a 4 core 8 thread processor they just said it was high end.

Regardless of Intel's naming convetions this device is a step in the right direction for MS.

 

[mtrupi]

it's nice to know that people are loyal in such degrees to Microsoft that nobody had a freakin' clue about this existing.

MS worries a lot about these getting announced early, but they don't really need to be. The people in Redmond, and other locations, are the best.

 

[Ur_Mom]

MS worries a lot about these getting announced early, but they don't really need to be. The people in Redmond, and other locations, are the best.

NDA is the huge thing. No one wants to violate it.

I've been told some interesting information from some people that work for Microsoft under an NDA and with a few - just a trust that I won't leak the info. Once you build that trust, you don't want to break it. Or be an asshole.

I've found most Microsoft employees to be freakin' amazing people. Just very friendly people. Panos Panay (Surface guy) is a no bullshit guy. You ask a question, he'll give you an honest answer. If you violate the NDA, though, he's done. No more Q&A. Awesome guy. There are others there that aren't as forward with information, but they are pretty good with hints. It's either a "No" or a "We can't confirm that".

People love working there, and they love the product and the consumer enough to keep secrets when needed.

 

[daglesj]

The problem with comparing Apple laptop designs to any other is that all Apple has done is design -

THE MOST BASIC DESIGN YOU CAN FOR A LAPTOP

Essentially the most plain and boring 'non-design' you can imagine. So if you want to design the most plain and boring looking laptop...it will look like 95% or so like a Macbook Pro.

This is a problem for Apple because all they can do now is look at what they can remove each year to keep the boring design 'looking fresh'.

They have painted themselves in a corner design wise.

 

[Ur_Mom]

The problem with comparing Apple laptop designs to any other is that all Apple has done is design -

THE MOST BASIC DESIGN YOU CAN FOR A LAPTOP

Essentially the most plain and boring 'non-design' you can imagine. So if you want to design the most plain and boring looking laptop...it will look like 95% or so like a Macbook Pro.

This is a problem for Apple because all they can do now is look at what they can remove each year to keep the boring design 'looking fresh'.

They have painted themselves in a corner design wise.

Their stores are the same way, as are most of their products. To me, it feels very sterile. Almost like a lab or doctors equipment. But, a lot of people like that look. Me? I love looking through the Case Mods forum, so as far away from that basic design, the better.

 

[heatlesssun]

The problem with comparing Apple laptop designs to any other is that all Apple has done is design -

THE MOST BASIC DESIGN YOU CAN FOR A LAPTOP

Essentially the most plain and boring 'non-design' you can imagine. So if you want to design the most plain and boring looking laptop...it will look like 95% or so like a Macbook Pro.

This is a problem for Apple because all they can do now is look at what they can remove each year to keep the boring design 'looking fresh'.

They have painted themselves in a corner design wise.

Blocks of metal of similar shape, size and color are going to look alike, that's kind of unavoidable. What Microsoft really copied is the industrial design of Apple devices and replaced the aluminum with a magnesium alloy. Microsoft has talked a lot about their magnesium process. It apparently cost them a bundle and they hold or have applied for a number of patents around that process.

 

[daglesj]

By 'industrial' you mean 'boring'?