Microsoft and Intel get behind HD-DVD

[Terpfen]

From Engadget:

It was a rough week of hazing, but it looks like both Microsoft and Intel successfully rushed and are going to be accepted as full members of the HD DVD Promotion Group. We figured these guys would at least make a pretense of staying neutral in this dogfight, but in their press release Microsoft veep Blair Westlake disses on Blu-ray, saying that, “after looking at the core advantages to the PC ecosystem and how it would benefit the consumer, it is clear that HD DVD offers the highest quality, and is the most affordable and highly flexible solution available.”

I'm getting tired of being right. The second after Sony announced they were using Blu-Ray in the PS3, Toshiba probably began leaning on Microsoft to adopt HD-DVD. Looks like the Xbox360 is going to become the next Sega Genesis in terms of add-ons: we already have an optional hard drive, and now we're getting an optional disc drive.

Way to fragment your console base, MS.

 

[paranoia4422]

was rumors of the premium package shortly after release adopting it for the movies persective

 

[|MaguS|]

The x360 in time will get HD-DVD playback for movies but NEVER for games, allowing games to use HD-DVD on "upgraded" systems would split the user base, developers will continue to ignore it aswell to make sure they get all the users covered. This is the reason MS is making sure every game does not require the HD since it is an addon and not standard.

 

[Komataguri]

From Engadget:

It was a rough week of hazing, but it looks like both Microsoft and Intel successfully rushed and are going to be accepted as full members of the HD DVD Promotion Group. We figured these guys would at least make a pretense of staying neutral in this dogfight, but in their press release Microsoft veep Blair Westlake disses on Blu-ray, saying that, “after looking at the core advantages to the PC ecosystem and how it would benefit the consumer, it is clear that HD DVD offers the highest quality, and is the most affordable and highly flexible solution available.”

I'm getting tired of being right. The second after Sony announced they were using Blu-Ray in the PS3, Toshiba probably began leaning on Microsoft to adopt HD-DVD. Looks like the Xbox360 is going to become the next Sega Genesis in terms of add-ons: we already have an optional hard drive, and now we're getting an optional disc drive.

Way to fragment your console base, MS.

Ha ha ha, 32x for the 360

 

[michealo]

this is why im not buying a xbox 3DO at launch

waiting for the HD-DVD model

 

[Saeid]

Well the DVD has ALOT of potential...

as well as HD-DVD... i think it was Hitachi that somehow made a DVD or was it HD-DVD that can store upto 80gb...


also i think durability should be an issue here... since niether Blu-Ray or HD-DVD have taken durability into account... the more advanced we get the more fragile we get...
i mean look at the old B: disks (the floppy disks)... and A: disks... they all had an outer casing!

 

[pigpen]

...

 

[mentok1982]

Damn!

Why did Microsoft and Intel have to BOTH back HD-DVD?
I hope these recent changes don't end up crippling the PS3 or Sony.

 

[Isaacav2]

I am wondering why everyone thinks that Blue-Ray will be the DVD based disc when they pop in a movie in the future. Both formats will work in current players, so just because Sony wins the next round (consoles), it doesn't mean that microsoft turned into a 32X or 3D0. I hate microsoft, but they are pretty rich them bill gates people.

 

[debello_64]

Both formats will work in current players

Not true, DVDs will work in both Blue Ray and HDDVD players but Blry/HDDVD will not work in current generation of DVD players. If they did this would kinda of be a mute point anyways. I cant remember but I believe that Sony said that Blry players will read HDDVD or it was the other way around.

 

[LynxFX]

What's stupid is that this really changes nothing. You think Dell and HP, major backers of Blu-ray, are just going to ditch that and go "alright Microsoft, we'll go with your publicity stunt....wait, didn't you tell us that you were going to support Blu-ray as well in your next OS?"

If MS actually believed in HD-DVD, they would be launching their X360 with it, not saying it might be a future add-on...one which when it doesn't take off is quickly forgotten.

The majority of Hollywood is behind Blu-ray (even HD-DVD love child Warner Brothers is starting to faulter), along with the greater number of hardware manufacturers which will be making the actual drives. When PS3 hits the streets, and every single one of them has a Blu-ray drive, you can count the days to when HD-DVD becomes a memory.

Guess it is just poetry when MS and Intel shout their praise for a technology that is the least innovative, least progressive, and benefits consumers....the least.

One thing the Blu-ray camp better do soon is announce their finalized protection schemes and give us the run down if they will allow recorded HD over component, something HD-DVD will not.

 

[|MaguS|]

Damn!

Why did Microsoft and Intel have to BOTH back HD-DVD?
I hope these recent changes don't end up crippling the PS3 or Sony.

For a DVD standard, MS and Intel really mean crap. They both hold neither any movie copyrights or CD Technology. Sony makes players, recorders and owns many many movie copyrights and studios. Look at the support UMD got because Sony was able to release a crap load of movies on it quickly.

 

[LynxFX]

I cant remember but I believe that Sony said that Blry players will read HDDVD or it was the other way around.

Neither will. They both have the capacity to read standard DVD though.

Samsung is the first to announce plans to release a combo player capable of playing both Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles, but that is manufacturer specific, not format specific.

 

[NulloModo]

It won't allow to record over component in the official spec, but there will be ways around it.

Blu-Ray is in every way the superior technology, less compression, more room on discs, etc, etc, HD-DVD needs to die and needs to die fast, thankfully, the Microsoft/Intel move has come too late to save it.

 

[Night Fox]

Blu-Ray is in every way the superior technology, less compression, more room on discs, etc, etc, HD-DVD needs to die and needs to die fast, thankfully, the Microsoft/Intel move has come too late to save it.

Actually I prefer HD-DVD and I believe most people will once the final specs and hardware are released. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but Blu-Ray takes the cake topped with disadvantages. Numero uno, the built-in DRM ability of the hardware spec to detect hacks and tweaks then flash the unit and render it useless.

Blu-Ray may allow for higher capacities, but with those capacities will come a higher price tag on media.

I'd rather support the less intrusive, less expensive way of enjoying HD content.

 

[NulloModo]

Actually I prefer HD-DVD and I believe most people will once the final specs and hardware are released. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but Blu-Ray takes the cake topped with disadvantages. Numero uno, the built-in DRM ability of the hardware spec to detect hacks and tweaks then flash the unit and render it useless.

Blu-Ray may allow for higher capacities, but with those capacities will come a higher price tag on media.

I'd rather support the less intrusive, less expensive way of enjoying HD content.

The DRM will be similar on both, and once production ramps up, prices similar on both.

Besides, there will always be third world producers making players that let you bypass the DRM, just as there will be people who find out ways to do it on the legit company's products, so nothing to worry about.

 

[LynxFX]

Initial investment price for manufacturing is the only 'pro' that HD-DVD has over Blu-ray and that is quickly disappearing with new manufacturing processes for Blu-ray. Every other aspect of the technology, Blu-ray has the advantage. Space, bandwidth, bitrate, room to grow, resolution (1080p, HD-DVD has made no plans to support it). What's funny is that HD-DVD still doesn't have a working model of their product to show to exhibitors.

I commend HD-DVD for putting the pressure on Blu-ray and getting them to switch codecs and improve their format to compete, but in that process they have passed them in every single way.

I'd rather support the less intrusive, less expensive way of enjoying HD content.

Hope your HDTV has an HDMI capable input, because that is the only way you will enjoy HD content with HD-DVD. Component inputs will be downrezed to 480p. Blu-ray could possibly be the same way, which is why there are dozens of internet and other campaigns to get the powers to be to quit shitting on the consumer with bogus protection schemes which in the end, only hurt those who are paying the money for the product in the first place.

Like NulloModo said, there will be 3rd party solutions for getting around those schemes, and if there aren't, then the product will most likely be rejected.

 

[Night Fox]

What's funny is that HD-DVD still doesn't have a working model of their product to show to exhibitors.

Yep, very funny.

One thing to point out is that Sony has never dominated with proprietary technology. Whenever they hold all the cards, no one else wants to play the game. Hell, they don't play well with themselves (internally) does anyone think that they are going to play nice with others?

Well regardless of which camp you are rooting for, we as the consumer lose. No matter which format wins, there will be those that invested in the other side and whichever format it is will become obsolete.

 

[paranoia4422]

HDDVD sucks when it comes to tranfer rates,it would make impossible for games like oblivion or saints row to stream game content at a successfull rate

oh this goes for blueray to

 

[LynxFX]

Yep, very funny.

Wow, posted today. Yet still no demo, or software to show off. While Blu-ray has had a recorder on the market for years now in Japan, and the new revision which will be for prerecorded movies has been giving live demos for the past year.

Edit:

One thing to point out is that Sony has never dominated with proprietary technology.

That's true, except this isn't a Sony proprietary format. Blu-ray is backed by over a hundred companies, and codeveloped by some of the biggest names in the industry. They just didn't want to play nice with the DVD Forum, and as a result, ended up with a superior product.

 

[Terpfen]

HDDVD sucks when it comes to tranfer rates,it would make impossible for games like oblivion or saints row to stream game content at a successfull rate

oh this goes for blueray to

Um... HD-DVD and Blu-Ray transfer rates are both faster than DVD transfer rates, which in turn are faster than CD transfer rates.

Just because something says "1X" doesn't mean it's the same "1X" as the old CD-ROM drives. A DVD-ROM drive's 1X is faster than a CD-ROM's 52X. In turn, a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD 1X is faster than a DVD-ROM 8X.

Transfer rates are fine. The issues in upgrading to Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD involve selling brand-new DVD players and getting content on those players: whoever gets the best-selling player out there will win the war. This is why PS3 using Blu-Ray is critical: it's a guaranteed user base of millions.

 

[Night Fox]

Looks like the Xbox360 is going to become the next Sega Genesis in terms of add-ons: we already have an optional hard drive, and now we're getting an optional disc drive.

I don't think they would release an external HD-DVD drive, but rather release an updated version of the console that supports HD-DVD, simply so it can play movies. No game is going to require the storage space of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if they manage to fill either of those beasts up.

 

[figgie]

Um... HD-DVD and Blu-Ray transfer rates are both faster than DVD transfer rates, which in turn are faster than CD transfer rates.

Just because something says "1X" doesn't mean it's the same "1X" as the old CD-ROM drives. A DVD-ROM drive's 1X is faster than a CD-ROM's 52X. In turn, a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD 1X is faster than a DVD-ROM 8X.

Transfer rates are fine. The issues in upgrading to Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD involve selling brand-new DVD players and getting content on those players: whoever gets the best-selling player out there will win the war. This is why PS3 using Blu-Ray is critical: it's a guaranteed user base of millions.

yes but does no one including the ps3 users if there is ZERO content out there. Hell how many games use DVD now a days? Not many (ut2k4 did) and people are already saying the ps3 has the capability but god knows how long it will be before being implemented.

 

[S1nF1xx]

Every proprietary Sony format in their last how many attempts have been complete and utter shit-tastic failures. All of them come at a premium price with generic performance. We need bluray to fail or we'll be paying $30+ for movies.

 

[Night Fox]

Every proprietary Sony format in their last how many attempts have been complete and utter shit-tastic failures. All of them come at a premium price with generic performance. We need bluray to fail or we'll be paying $30+ for movies.

QFT

Anyone here prefer Memory Sticks over other flashed based media? How about encoding all your music into ATRAC3?

 

[Terpfen]

I don't think they would release an external HD-DVD drive, but rather release an updated version of the console that supports HD-DVD, simply so it can play movies.

That would be one of the largest consumer recalls in history, and the logistics alone would be a complete nightmare. I don't think anyone would want to send in their Xbox 360 for what would likely be a period of 6+ weeks, just to change the DVD player.

No game is going to require the storage space of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if they manage to fill either of those beasts up.

They said this about CDs, then DVDs, then DVD-9s. Xbox 360 developers (Team Ninja notably) are already complaining about the DVD-9s, saying that it's a bitch to fit all the content for 480p, 720p, and 1080i on a single DVD-9. Some PS2 games already use DVD-9s, Xenosaga notably. Microsoft goofed in not going with HD-DVD or Blu-Ray from the start. They're going to have to correct this somehow: it's not going to be pretty no matter what route they choose.

yes but does no one including the ps3 users if there is ZERO content out there.

Google is your friend. HD-DVD movies are coming at the end of this year, and Blu-Ray movies are coming shortly after. PS3 is tentatively launching in Spring 2006, while HD-DVD's launch is being pushed back from the planned January 2006 launch.

Hell how many games use DVD now a days? Not many (ut2k4 did) and people are already saying the ps3 has the capability but god knows how long it will be before being implemented.

Er... every PS2 and Xbox game in existence ship on DVDs, with some games already straining the capacity of DVDs (Xenosaga games in particular ship on DVD-9s, meaning the first revisions of the PS2 can't play them.) The PC is irrelevant to the market acceptance of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

Every proprietary Sony format in their last how many attempts have been complete and utter shit-tastic failures. All of them come at a premium price with generic performance. We need bluray to fail or we'll be paying $30+ for movies.

Blu-Ray is not a Sony proprietary format, just as the CD was not a Sony proprietary format (even though Sony co-developed the CD with Philips.)

Go look at the member listing of the Blu-Ray Consortium.

 

[LynxFX]

Every proprietary Sony format in their last how many attempts have been complete and utter shit-tastic failures. All of them come at a premium price with generic performance. We need bluray to fail or we'll be paying $30+ for movies.

I'll take a $30 Blu-ray movie at 1080p high bitrate and lossless audio, over a $20 1080i, highly compressed video and compressed audio HD-DVD movie any day.

And once again, Blu-ray is not a proprietary Sony format.

 

[figgie]

I'll take a $30 Blu-ray movie at 1080p high bitrate and lossless audio, over a $20 1080i, highly compressed video and compressed audio HD-DVD movie any day.

And once again, Blu-ray is not a proprietary Sony format.

yeah it is.. they came up with it and patented it. how much more propriatary do you want?

They said this about CDs, then DVDs, then DVD-9s. Xbox 360 developers (Team Ninja notably) are already complaining about the DVD-9s, saying that it's a bitch to fit all the content for 480p, 720p, and 1080i on a single DVD-9. Some PS2 games already use DVD-9s, Xenosaga notably. Microsoft goofed in not going with HD-DVD or Blu-Ray from the start. They're going to have to correct this somehow: it's not going to be pretty no matter what route they choose.

DVD authoring 101. Stick in 1 version (1080i or what ever format the designate) and downconvert to ALL other formats. Not sure where you got that they will stick 4 formats on one media. Pointless when the downconvert cost nothing except processing cycles.

Google is your friend. HD-DVD movies are coming at the end of this year, and Blu-Ray movies are coming shortly after. PS3 is tentatively launching in Spring 2006, while HD-DVD's launch is being pushed back from the planned January 2006 launch.

so what you are telling me is that the ps3 users will have a shiney new BD-DVD but it won't get used by the game makers and is just there for movies?? nice waste of 300 dollars.

 

[Terpfen]

yeah it is.. they came up with it and patented it. how much more propriatary do you want?

Pst. Sony holds a patent on the CD. Does that make it a Sony proprietary format?

DVD authoring 101. Stick in 1 version (1080i or what ever format the designate) and downconvert to ALL other formats. Not sure where you got that they will stick 4 formats on one media. Pointless when the downconvert cost nothing except processing cycles.

Game art development 101: make your work fit the format. Downscaling 720p and 1080i art to 480p is sloppy development, nevermind the fact that fitting 720p/1080i art on a disc in the first place takes up a good amount of space. It's ironic that we moved away from 2D sprites to 3D polygons partially to free up space dedicated to memory-intensive graphics, yet now we're trying to introduce discs with the theoretical capacity of 200GB.

so what you are telling me is that the ps3 users will have a shiney new BD-DVD but it won't get used by the game makers and is just there for movies?? nice waste of 300 dollars.

Where the hell did you get "movies yes, games no" from? PS3 games will use Blu-Ray discs.

Stop reading selectively. You look like a fool.

 

[diehard]

I'll take a $30 Blu-ray movie at 1080p high bitrate and lossless audio, over a $20 1080i, highly compressed video and compressed audio HD-DVD movie any day.

And once again, Blu-ray is not a proprietary Sony format.

Since when is a "highly compressed" H.264 not look fantastic? What codec does Blu-ray use, btw..?

 

[Terpfen]

Since when is a "highly compressed" H.264 not look fantastic? What codec does Blu-ray use, btw..?

They both use MPEG-2, WMV-HD, and H.264/MPEG-4.

See Engadget's BD vs HD article.

 

[figgie]

Pst. Sony holds a patent on the CD. Does that make it a Sony proprietary format?

actually it does geenews. Just because everyone adopted it does not exclude it from it still being a propriatary phillips/sony format I know for a fact it is not FREE for people to have that little compact disc logo on thier compact discs

Game art development 101: make your work fit the format. Downscaling 720p and 1080i art to 480p is sloppy development, nevermind the fact that fitting 720p/1080i art on a disc in the first place takes up a good amount of space. It's ironic that we moved away from 2D sprites to 3D polygons partially to free up space dedicated to memory-intensive graphics, yet now we're trying to introduce discs with the theoretical capacity of 200GB.

news flash. Movies never had followed game art development as a matter of fact it is quite the opossite. Games have followed movie storage and formats. So you point is both irrelavant and actually purely speculative at best. Guess what the standards (BD and HD)where built for. Here is a hint.. MOVIES. Oh wait that is the answer not a hint. So my facts stand unlike your speculations.

Where the hell did you get "movies yes, games no" from? PS3 games will use Blu-Ray discs.

Stop reading selectively. You look like a fool.

ahhh pot kettle.......

 

[paranoia4422]

can anybody sat 1X blueray drive speed vs 12X dvd drive w00tness

and the fact that theres a %90 chance sony letting out an experimental 1x drive is gonna fail on the first couple ps3 revisions

 

[Jawad]

When will the xbox360 come with an HD-DVD? around the time sony releases the PS3? because i'm sure by then, HD-DVD movies will me on the market, limited or not.

 

[Terpfen]

actually it does geenews. Just because everyone adopted it does not exclude it from it still being a propriatary phillips/sony format I know for a fact it is not FREE for people to have that little compact disc logo on thier compact discs

Well then, this kind of destroys your assertion that every Sony proprietary format sucks and should die. Thanks for admitting that.

news flash. Movies never had followed game art development as a matter of fact it is quite the opossite. Games have followed movie storage and formats. So you point is both irrelavant and actually purely speculative at best. Guess what the standards (BD and HD)where built for. Here is a hint.. MOVIES. Oh wait that is the answer not a hint. So my facts stand unlike your speculations.

News flash: the PS3 plays movies in addition to games, not games in addition to movies. Right now, I don't even know what your point is: you seem to be complaining about Blu-Ray's presence, regardless of whether a game or movie uses the format.

ahhh pot kettle.......

Really? Where? I've read your posts: you lack a point. You hate Blu-Ray for some generic "Sony formats suck lol" reason, despite the fact that you've been using CDs for at least the last 10 years.

Were I taking you seriously right now, I'd be popping some Excedrin migraine pills.

When will the xbox360 come with an HD-DVD? around the time sony releases the PS3? because i'm sure by then, HD-DVD movies will me on the market, limited or not.

Right now, "HD-DVD add-on for X360" is speculation based on Microsoft's increasing snuggling with the format. If Microsoft actually adds HD-DVD functions to the X360, it won't be for at least 1 year. There's no way they'll launch the X360 this November, then suddenly next Spring, pump out the HD-DVD units.

 

[LynxFX]

Since when is a "highly compressed" H.264 not look fantastic? What codec does Blu-ray use, btw..?

Blu-ray and HD-DVD will use the same codecs. Only difference is that Blu-ray has more room to use less compression and a higher bitrate, for both video and audio. HD-DVD doesn't have that luxury. Most people wouldn't even notice the difference like those that think that they are already watching High Def DVD's when they hook up a DVD player to their new HDTV's. But they aren't, or shouldn't be the target audience for this format. It's the early adopters and videophiles that will take these formats on, and they want the format that offers the absolute best audio and video without compromises.

Don't get me wrong, HD-DVD will look pretty good, but it won't be the best that it could be. And when there is something already better out there, why would I want to invest in something that takes a step backwards? The low space and higher spindle rate to reach the same transfer rate as Blu-ray are just two reasons why HD-DVD has already reached its ceiling in terms of performance and expandability.

 

[paranoia4422]

blu ray has a native transfer speed of 54Mbps (6.75MB) while DVD has a native speed of 11.1Mb (1.3875MB) thus it appears at first glace that the bluray drive in the Ps3 will have a transfer rate of almost 5x that of the x360, but wait, thats not true. the x360 drive runs at 12x effectively bumping that to 133.2Mb or 16.65MB nearly 3x faster than that of first gen bluray at 6.75MB. At this time i have gotten no reports of 2x bluray drives being both available and affordable

oh snap!

 

[figgie]

Well then, this kind of destroys your assertion that every Sony proprietary format sucks and should die. Thanks for admitting that.




News flash: the PS3 plays movies in addition to games, not games in addition to movies. Right now, I don't even know what your point is: you seem to be complaining about Blu-Ray's presence, regardless of whether a game or movie uses the format.




Really? Where? I've read your posts: you lack a point. You hate Blu-Ray for some generic "Sony formats suck lol" reason, despite the fact that you've been using CDs for at least the last 10 years.

Were I taking you seriously right now, I'd be popping some Excedrin migraine pills.

ooooh

tisk tisk

thanks for confusing me with the other poster

I would love to see where I. Figgie, said that Sony proprietary format sucks and should die. please quote me on this if you can

Really. Sony came up with Bd-DVD JUST for PS3? no wrong answer. Sony actually came up with BD-DVD for the same reason that HD-DVD did thiers. First and foremost movies...comprende. PS3 has it because.. 1 it is a sony product. So it cost them nothing to integrate. BUT who are you trying to kid. BD-DVD along with HD-DVD was brought to the table because of MOVIES.

This ownage has been brought to you by the letters

M E and the number 2

thanks for playing.

 

[Terpfen]

thanks for confusing me with the other poster

I would love to see where I. Figgie, said that Sony proprietary format sucks and should die. please quote me on this if you can

No confusion occurred: you have the same thought train as Sn1Fxx, even if you don't explicitly type it.

Really. Sony came up with Bd-DVD JUST for PS3? no wrong answer. Sony actually came up with BD-DVD for the same reason that HD-DVD did thiers. First and foremost movies...comprende. PS3 has it because.. 1 it is a sony product. So it cost them nothing to integrate. BUT who are you trying to kid. BD-DVD along with HD-DVD was brought to the table because of MOVIES.

Actually, they came up with Blu-Ray for storage first, then applied it to movies and games equally. Blu-Ray was never NOT going into the PS3.

Would you care to articulate a point now?

This ownage has been brought to you by the letters

M E and the number 2

thanks for playing.

Considering you haven't actually made a point, the phrase "you're a legend in your own mind" applies here.

 

[paranoia4422]

he ignored me

i take that as a comformation in his pwnd-ness