Micro LED TV mass production in 2023

polonyc2

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first gen MicroLED's might come out in 2023 but pricing won't be within reach for most people for a few more years afterwards...the MicroLED tech sounds really impressive- zero blacks of OLED with brightness close to LCD levels...definitely the successor to plasma and OLED
 

sharknice

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first gen MicroLED's might come out in 2023 but pricing won't be within reach for most people for a few more years afterwards...the MicroLED tech sounds really impressive- zero blacks of OLED with brightness close to LCD levels...definitely the successor to plasma and OLED
Yeah they'll probably be about the same prices as OLEDs or a little more to start out. MicroLED should be even brighter than LCDs.
 

ManofGod

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Well, by that point, I may be in the market for a new TV, since my Sony 50 inch Bravia 1080p at that I bought in October of 2013 still looks great. ($600) Here it is about 6.5 years old and no TV out there is worth getting to replace my Sony at this time.
 

Lepardi

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first gen MicroLED's might come out in 2023 but pricing won't be within reach for most people for a few more years afterwards...the MicroLED tech sounds really impressive- zero blacks of OLED with brightness close to LCD levels...definitely the successor to plasma and OLED
OLED's get brighter than needed already so I don't see the hype there
 

OpenSource

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Is this the tech that allows for modular sizing? Want a bigger screen and just buy a few more panels?
 

Sycraft

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Yeah they'll probably be about the same prices as OLEDs or a little more to start out. MicroLED should be even brighter than LCDs.
Maybe though they may have to moderate the brightness to keep them from burning in. Remember that burn in is a problem with any emissive display, and LEDs are no exception. One way to moderate the effects of that is to not operate at peak brightness. So even if the display was capable of, say, 10000 nits they might limit it to 4000 to reduce burn in issues.

OLED's get brighter than needed already so I don't see the hype there
No they aren't actually. That is one of the areas they fall way short of LCDs in. Like take the Sony AG9, Sony's new OLED. It's pretty pricey, $3500 for the 65" variant and comes with lots of good features as you'd expect for the price. However the peak brightness it hits for HDR is about 600nits. That is well short of the 1000 nits that is PQ gamma curve target, never mind the higher brightnesses that Dolby Vision and such can be mastered for. Now compare that to the Samsung Q80 at about 1000 nits, or the Vizio PX Quantum at about 1800 nits. Those are both more around $2000 TVs as well.

Is it a deal breaker for OLED? Of course not, but it IS an area that it is weak compared to LCDs. They can't get the big peak brightness numbers that we'd want for really dynamic HDR. Hopefully MicroLED will fix that.

Remember that with HDR content, we want much bigger peak brightness if we can get it. It is true that for SDR something in the realm of 400nits is more than enough unless you are trying to operate a display in direct sunlight or something like that, but the idea with HDR is to be able to produce really bright highlights, like we see in real life, and that means you need a much higher peak brightness.
 

Flogger23m

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No they aren't actually. That is one of the areas they fall way short of LCDs in. Like take the Sony AG9, Sony's new OLED. It's pretty pricey, $3500 for the 65" variant and comes with lots of good features as you'd expect for the price. However the peak brightness it hits for HDR is about 600nits. That is well short of the 1000 nits that is PQ gamma curve target, never mind the higher brightnesses that Dolby Vision and such can be mastered for. Now compare that to the Samsung Q80 at about 1000 nits, or the Vizio PX Quantum at about 1800 nits. Those are both more around $2000 TVs as well.

Is it a deal breaker for OLED? Of course not, but it IS an area that it is weak compared to LCDs. They can't get the big peak brightness numbers that we'd want for really dynamic HDR. Hopefully MicroLED will fix that.

Remember that with HDR content, we want much bigger peak brightness if we can get it. It is true that for SDR something in the realm of 400nits is more than enough unless you are trying to operate a display in direct sunlight or something like that, but the idea with HDR is to be able to produce really bright highlights, like we see in real life, and that means you need a much higher peak brightness.
So essentially, Micro LED is what we really waiting for to become mainstream and not OLED? Sounds like it will be a while until good gaming monitors have it.
 

limitedaccess

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OLED's get brighter than needed already so I don't see the hype there
MicroLED has certain characteristics that make it better than OLEDs. The one of primary interest is a significantly longer lifespan.

The main problem with MicroLEDs (which I think this video does touch on? only skimmed it) is on the manufacturing/production side. There needs to be revolutionary breakthroughs to enable production scaling and to bring down costs. I'm not really aware of developments that actually address this. So it'll be interesting to see what "breakthrough" gets revealed or what it actually means by mainstream by then.

By comparison bringing down OLED costs now is primarily just down to iteration and economies of scale. In theory OLEDs can actually cost less than current LCDs in terms of long term trends which would indirectly address the longevity (burn in) issue.
 

Dr. Righteous

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Have to deal with LGs a lot and the problem with OLED Burn in is significant. These are TV that start at $2000 and go up in price.
Well, just upgraded from a 32" 720p TV I've had for years to a 58" 4K TV I paid $299 for on a after Christmas special.
For what I paid I can't complain.
 

T4rd

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Maybe though they may have to moderate the brightness to keep them from burning in. Remember that burn in is a problem with any emissive display, and LEDs are no exception. One way to moderate the effects of that is to not operate at peak brightness. So even if the display was capable of, say, 10000 nits they might limit it to 4000 to reduce burn in issues.



No they aren't actually. That is one of the areas they fall way short of LCDs in. Like take the Sony AG9, Sony's new OLED. It's pretty pricey, $3500 for the 65" variant and comes with lots of good features as you'd expect for the price. However the peak brightness it hits for HDR is about 600nits. That is well short of the 1000 nits that is PQ gamma curve target, never mind the higher brightnesses that Dolby Vision and such can be mastered for. Now compare that to the Samsung Q80 at about 1000 nits, or the Vizio PX Quantum at about 1800 nits. Those are both more around $2000 TVs as well.

Is it a deal breaker for OLED? Of course not, but it IS an area that it is weak compared to LCDs. They can't get the big peak brightness numbers that we'd want for really dynamic HDR. Hopefully MicroLED will fix that.

Remember that with HDR content, we want much bigger peak brightness if we can get it. It is true that for SDR something in the realm of 400nits is more than enough unless you are trying to operate a display in direct sunlight or something like that, but the idea with HDR is to be able to produce really bright highlights, like we see in real life, and that means you need a much higher peak brightness.
LG's current C9/E9 OLEDs can hit 700-1000 nits according to most reviews too.
 

jeffj7

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just because it can get brighter doesn't mean you should use them at max brightness. the biggest failure we see in tv's is Backlighting failure.
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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^ well if the LED were not made in China, and over driven, they might last a wee bit longer....
 

dgz

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the idea with HDR is to be able to produce really bright highlights, like we see in real life, and that means you need a much higher peak brightness.
That's true, however staring at a screen this bright is bad for the eyes. I totally get the idea and think it's a good thing but having a display this bright in front of you for long periods of time is unhealthy and impractical. Should be pretty sweet for watching movies, though
 

deton8

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Well, by that point, I may be in the market for a new TV, since my Sony 50 inch Bravia 1080p at that I bought in October of 2013 still looks great. ($600) Here it is about 6.5 years old and no TV out there is worth getting to replace my Sony at this time.
I thought I was the only one still rocking a TV from that era. Those LG OLEDs were tempting but I can't justify upgrading quiet yet.

Micro LED seems like the solution to everything, but I fear the price that's going to come at.
 

Snowdog

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Micro LED seems like the solution to everything, but I fear the price that's going to come at.
I think there are very high odds, it won't come out at all in the consumer space.

There is no visible route to consumer friendly pricing.

Both OLED and LCD are essentially fabricated in layers, the size of the screen, all together. Except for the LED backlight, which is built separately with hundreds or thousands LEDs in the more expensive models.

But Micro LED requires the fabrication and placement of millions of individual LEDs. 3 LEDs/pixel.

So a 4K set requires: 3840x2160*3 LEDs.

24 Million individual LEDs, to be individual fabbed, and then placed precisely in circuit to build a set.

Micro LED wall sets cost hundreds of thousands dollars, not because they are large. Much of that cost would remain, even if they made them small. They are building large, because that is the only way they might sell them for what it costs to build them.

Because large or small, you still need to individually fab and place 24 million individual LEDs, which is the real cost driver here.

IMO, these are pipe dream, and a distraction for consumers.
 

Armenius

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That's true, however staring at a screen this bright is bad for the eyes. I totally get the idea and think it's a good thing but having a display this bright in front of you for long periods of time is unhealthy and impractical. Should be pretty sweet for watching movies, though
I think you're still not getting the point of HDR. Full scene brightness when calibrated will still average out to 100-300 nits depending on lighting conditions and preference. Peak brightness, what we're referring to when talking about HDR10 and 1000 nits or Dolby Vision and 10,000 nits, are for bright highlights on the screen like the sun. In other words, if you are going to be doing any kind of desktop usage with HDR enabled (though why would you unless you're editing video), your eyes are not going to be exposed to a constant brightness of 1000-10,000 nits.
 

Darunion

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just because it can get brighter doesn't mean you should use them at max brightness. the biggest failure we see in tv's is Backlighting failure.
Those purchasing tvs for dolby vision are not looking to run the tv at its lowest ECO settings to make it last longer, they are looking for a great quality picture. I suppose having the same tv for 10 years probably would go down that road of failure, but most looking for the best upgrade before then anyways.
 

jeffj7

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Those purchasing tvs for dolby vision are not looking to run the tv at its lowest ECO settings to make it last longer, they are looking for a great quality picture. I suppose having the same tv for 10 years probably would go down that road of failure, but most looking for the best
well when people bring them in for repair and complain that they only lasted for 2 to 3 years. tells they would rather have them last longer rather than always upgrading to the newest hopefully micro led will hold up better since each led is its own light source but i still would recommend running any of them at max.
 

Darunion

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well when people bring them in for repair and complain that they only lasted for 2 to 3 years. tells they would rather have them last longer rather than always upgrading to the newest hopefully micro led will hold up better since each led is its own light source but i still would recommend running any of them at max.
I do hope they do. I wish I could afford an oled ( i just love the dynamic range of the colors and contrast). True, though what you aren't seeing in the repair center are people using the broken tv to justify to their spouses why they get to upgrade :p

Honestly I don't even know where Id go for a tv repair anymore, all the small ones around me have vanished over the years.
 

polonyc2

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LG's current C9/E9 OLEDs can hit 700-1000 nits according to most reviews too.
no way do the 2019 LG OLED's hit 1000 nits peak brightness...for the last few years they've been peaking at ~730...OLED tech has maxed out hence the need for MicroLED's
 

Snowdog

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no way do the 2019 LG OLED's hit 1000 nits peak brightness...for the last few years they've been peaking at ~730...OLED tech has maxed out hence the need for MicroLED's
More like the "need" to stick with MiniLED LCDs if you think it's actually a need to have higher than 700 nit peaks. I don't. I'll choose an OLED TV over LCDs every time.

MicroLED TVs simply aren't coming to the consumer space in the foreseeable future.
 

polonyc2

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More like the "need" to stick with MiniLED LCDs if you think it's actually a need to have higher than 700 nit peaks. I don't. I'll choose an OLED TV over LCDs every time.

MicroLED TVs simply aren't coming to the consumer space in the foreseeable future.
OLED's are reference quality displays but if they can keep the perfect (zero) blacks and bump up the brightness then it would be the best of both worlds
 

limitedaccess

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Have to deal with LGs a lot and the problem with OLED Burn in is significant. These are TV that start at $2000 and go up in price.
Well, just upgraded from a 32" 720p TV I've had for years to a 58" 4K TV I paid $299 for on a after Christmas special.
For what I paid I can't complain.
Really the burn-in issue and differing opinions to me seems to come down at the end to expectations. If you're largely treating it as a disposable product with a <3 year lifespan if not 2 years the burn-in issue is likely very manageable. This is also one of the reasons that contributed to a fast adoption of OLEDs in smartphones.

But if your expectation is a lifespan at 5 years if not the 10 year mark or more which is a fairly common expectation (if not majority) for TVs/Monitors (especially at the $1k+ mark) that is going to problematic.

This is why I feel that the "burn-in" problem with OLEDs will ultimately be addressed not actually by longevity improvements but if prices come down. When prices get driven down to those $300 BF/Christmas special prices for TVs than that'll be much more palatable to the mass market even if it does experience burn-in 3 years in.
 

Snowdog

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But if your expectation is a lifespan at 5 years if not the 10 year mark or more which is a fairly common expectation (if not majority) for TVs/Monitors (especially at the $1k+ mark) that is going to problematic.
TV/Monitor tend to be very different in terms of usage.

TV usage pattern tends to be a very averaged impact on the screen, so not really a problem getting 5 to 10 years out of it.

Monitors OTOH, are typically suject to endless static content in the same spots on screen. This would require great care, if not impossible to avoid burn in the long term.

Which is probably why OLED TVs have been available for many years, but we still don't have consumer OLED desktop monitors, though we do have more OLED laptops now, it will be interesting to see how those hold up after a few years on the market.
 

dgz

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I think you're still not getting the point of HDR. Full scene brightness when calibrated will still average out to 100-300 nits depending on lighting conditions and preference. Peak brightness, what we're referring to when talking about HDR10 and 1000 nits or Dolby Vision and 10,000 nits, are for bright highlights on the screen like the sun. In other words, if you are going to be doing any kind of desktop usage with HDR enabled (though why would you unless you're editing video), your eyes are not going to be exposed to a constant brightness of 1000-10,000 nits.
I get it and you're right. But I don't want my TV to have the ability to blind me
 

Darunion

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I get it and you're right. But I don't want my TV to have the ability to blind me
I mean the point of this and going forward is to one day make the tv feel like a window into the world being shown. If there was a sun or gunshot, you want that brightness to really immerse oneself. Maybe not for watching netflix for 10 straight hours but a good movie would be amazing.
 

dgz

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I mean the point of this and going forward is to one day make the tv feel like a window into the world being shown. If there was a sun or gunshot, you want that brightness to really immerse oneself. Maybe not for watching netflix for 10 straight hours but a good movie would be amazing.
A one-person window :]
 

Snowdog

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I get it and you're right. But I don't want my TV to have the ability to blind me
Count me in the group that doesn't wan't this level of "realism" either. Even the "glare" effects in video games annoy my, and my monitor is set to peak at about 120 nits.
 

STrooperTK421

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I am all up for this.

I'm thinking about a large form factor PC Micro-LED based display that has insane refresh rates, virtually no lag, full color spectrum, true HDR...or fuck all that, and have a Micro-LED based VR headset with all those abilities!

Either way, the future of display tech is going to be pretty sweet. :)
 

dgz

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More onto this, what if it was overlayed in your houses windows with positional tracking with a PC? Make it look like you live anywhere!
Point was, how do you display the proper perspective for more than person/pov?

As a whole, I am not against HDR and window like display. I just want max brightness to be a bit less than the sun.
 

Darunion

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Point was, how do you display the proper perspective for more than person/pov?

As a whole, I am not against HDR and window like display. I just want max brightness to be a bit less than the sun.
Okay I guess we can meet in the middle, you can have an option to turn it down.

Perspective was more of a joke, but it would be kinda neat with displays bright enough to produce light coming into the window appearing to be from a beach or sunset etc
 

dgz

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Okay I guess we can meet in the middle, you can have an option to turn it down.

Perspective was more of a joke, but it would be kinda neat with displays bright enough to produce light coming into the window appearing to be from a beach or sunset etc
I have given this plenty of thought. Only I was thinking about how subway trains could project traveling through all kinds of cool places instead of scary tunnels. It could work and really cheer people up.
 

Darunion

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I have given this plenty of thought. Only I was thinking about how subway trains could project traveling through all kinds of cool places instead of scary tunnels. It could work and really cheer people up.
Work space cubicles could also gain from this. A lot could be done for people with fears and anxieties as well.

Or what I need is to build a good custom flight sim cockpit!
 
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HAL_404

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rest assured, that after this is released and you get a hold of one ... you still will not be satisfied for long :barefoot:
 
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