Mazda Develops Engine That Is up to 30 Percent More Fuel Efficient

[Silentbob343]

You can't seriously be buying into this decades later?

Was a good thread, then came a troll.

Market fixing and stagnation has gotten to the point where no other competitor has cared about efficiency. It wasn't until Tesla started to light a fire under their ass that car makers have decided to actually try something new instead of releasing a fancy new shell over the same old guts. There's just no incentive to keep our air clean and our wallets full. Just look at all the shit you have to go through to get solar panels in some states.

I think CAFE standards have been a pretty good impetus along with other regulations from various countries and of course the cost of oil. To assume improvements in fuel efficiency are the result of Tesla is pretty silly although competition no doubt plays a role.

Mazda tech news is meaningless until it shows up on the dealer lot. Diesel was supposed to be out in 2011... Also no RX7 no care.

Ha, very good point.

 

[Sufu]

30% efficiency gains on an ICE is like going from 20% efficient (at converting fuel -> energy) to 26% efficient. Yay ICE. /s

 

[RogueTadhg]

Mazda tech news is meaningless until it shows up on the dealer lot. Diesel was supposed to be out in 2011... Also no RX7 no care.

Agreed. RX-7 was supposed to be in development and hinted about. But at this stage of the game every time one of these rumors surfaces, Mazda shoots it down faster than a Kid playing Duck Hunt with a Game Shark.
Game Genie.
Shark Genie?

...One of those cheat devices.

I've owned and loved my RX8 R3 and it drinking a quart of oil was acceptable for the fun I had in it.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Obviously you know know nothing about this issue. Do you even know who Smokey Yunick was? He was far from a con artist.

I've followed this since I first read about it in Hot Rod magazine in 1984. (I still have the magazine issue) Smokey turn over his prototype to GM engineers to drive the car so they could see his claims were true. The GM engineers tried to break the car. Tried to make them over heat, and tried to make the system fail. They could not. NO he would NOT let them take it all apart so they could see how it worked. There were some one-off parts Smokey developed in it. The rest of it could be assembled with off the shelf parts. He was trying to sell the system to GM, (he collaborated with GM for decades developing racing parts) not have them copy it and claim they developed it with a team of 50 lawyers nodding yes.

So, because I come with facts on how and engine works I don't know the myth that has developed around this engine? Of which most work was not even done by smoky on? Right right.

Where are these GM engineers that tested MPG and power output? Oh, thats right, Smokey said so. Why don't you go build this motor and toss a HHO generator on it as well, free fuel for life!!!!1111!!

 

[Mr34727]

You could do that on the hwy in your overdrive gear, same with almost all LSx vehicles. Compare the city numbers and I bet there would be a bit more of a discrepancy.

As far as the efficiency stagnation, kind of... ICE has been stuck at around the 20-30% mark.

One reason we haven't seen large jumps in fuel economy is that much has changed over the past several decades, mainly emissions/safety, which make fuel economy a difficult needle to move. Many like to point at the claimed 57mpg of the 1987 CRX HF, but fail to realize compared to the modern counterpart they are completely different animals. A current Honda will be much heavier, make more power, output less emissions, etc. Also note how testing methodologies have changed over the years for more accurate MPG estimates.

So has MPG stagnated? Yes, but not as much as one thinks.

Also, ethanol.

 

[S-F]

You could do that on the hwy in your overdrive gear, same with almost all LSx vehicles. Compare the city numbers and I bet there would be a bit more of a discrepancy.

As far as the efficiency stagnation, kind of... ICE has been stuck at around the 20-30% mark.

One reason we haven't seen large jumps in fuel economy is that much has changed over the past several decades, mainly emissions/safety, which make fuel economy a difficult needle to move. Many like to point at the claimed 57mpg of the 1987 CRX HF, but fail to realize compared to the modern counterpart they are completely different animals. A current Honda will be much heavier, make more power, output less emissions, etc. Also note how testing methodologies have changed over the years for more accurate MPG estimates.

So has MPG stagnated? Yes, but not as much as one thinks.

My last car was a 90's Civic and I routinely got 50 MPG on the highway. What does a modern Civic hybrid get on the highway?

 

[DeChache]

My last car was a 90's Civic and I routinely got 50 MPG on the highway. What does a modern Civic hybrid get on the highway?

Its apples to oranges really... Your 90's civic was a tin can on wheels with basic safety features at best and no creature comforts. A brand new civic hybird will probably weigh twice as much as your old one have a bigger frontal area and get some where around 40 MPG.

 

[OldGator]

It's much preferred to be burning that fuel 50 miles away from where people live. The term shitting in your own nest comes to light. There's more to it, just think of one source away from populations as opposed to thousands of mobile sources crapping all over the suburbs.

Since the suburbs have already destroyed the environment through houses, roads, parking lots, schools, malls, offices, etc. it would really be more akin to farting in the already nasty nest.

 

[Silentbob343]

My last car was a 90's Civic and I routinely got 50 MPG on the highway. What does a modern Civic hybrid get on the highway?

Magic? My 94 Mazda protege didn't get anywhere near that. In fact it got about the same as a Mazda 3 while having a smaller engine and weighing 1000 pounds less.

Perhaps the quote below plays a part in your 50 mpg Civic or you're one of those hyper-miler weirdos.

Also, ethanol.

 

[Burticus]

Hey, anything that improves MPG and doesn't impact performance is a good thing. Unless it costs extra, then it depends on how much. Also, any increased maintenance issues with this? We don't know because there isn't any real long term road data yet.

But hey I bought a car with a CVT (Maxima) which kind of freaked me out at first but now I don't even even notice it. I do notice it gets over 30mpg on the highway though and I tend to drive quickly.

 

[OldGator]

Cars were making great progress in MPG increases until some of us started demanding heated seats, entertainment systems, and other bloat that made cars heavier and fatter over the past decade or so.

Magic? My 94 Mazda protege didn't get anywhere near that. In fact it got about the same as a Mazda 3 while having a smaller engine and weighing 1000 pounds less. Perhaps the quote below plays a part in your 50 mpg Civic or you're one of those hyper-miler weirdos.

One of the highest mileage cars I ever owned was a 97 Protege with the 1.6l engine coupled with an automatic - under normal city driving got me around 37-38, regular highway 42-45, and if traffic was light on the highway and I kept it near the speed limit then closer to 50. Bought an 03 with a 5 speed/2.0l and the mileage dropped down to 33-34 city/39-40 highway/35-36 through the Rocky/Cascade Mts. Always loved how they were fun to drive without being weenieboxes like the Corollas, etc. Now I have a Mazda 6 and it gets about 31-32 city/36-37 highway. It's the largest and heaviest of them all and barely uses more fuel despite having the largest engine.

One of my first jobs was working for a Honda dealer in the mid-late 80s. The Civic/Prelude/Accord were amazing on fuel - especially the HF.

And, yes, the requirement of having ethanol in fuel steals about 10% or so from our mileage due to lower energy content of the fuel.

 

[Nanogrip]

I really appreciate that they are working hard to get that 30%, but how about turbo charge some of their engine line up? Maybe this is a marketing strategy to appease to the green fanatics? Bring back that zoom zoom from Mazda.

 

[mope54]

My last car was a 90's Civic and I routinely got 50 MPG on the highway. What does a modern Civic hybrid get on the highway?

It gets you not killed in an accident.

 

[B00nie]

I assume they mean the oil lobbyist who was sitting at the bar?

Assuming the factories producing the vehicles are equal (so we don't get into the "supply chain is cleaner!" talk), electric vehicles can be charged on cleaner sources of energy. Oil vehicles can not, no matter what, they must burn a fuel.

Btw, I'd guess that 20-30% more efficient implies it's more efficient than a traditional engine in the same vehicle. So if the car gets 28mpg, it'd now get 35mpg (splitting the difference of the estimate).

Electricity is largely produced by burning coal so it's not hard to beat it environmentally. Also the manufacturing of battery cells is extremely polluting. An EV needs 8 years of average driving to reach the pollution level of a gas engine at the factory gates and only then it starts to be more environmental friendly.

Of course if the batteries are dead at 8 years (quite likely) and you have to replace them, that adds perhaps another 6 years before it starts to be cleaner again.

 

[B00nie]

It gets you not killed in an accident.

Lol yeah 90s cars are very light and efficient. But they protect you just about as much as a tin can.

 

[thesmokingman]

Lol yeah 90s cars are very light and efficient. But they protect you just about as much as a tin can.

I dunno, 80's cars were even lighter. Man, I loved my 86' 951 er 944 Turbo. It weighed 2600lbs with 220hp stock which was easily bumped up. But the weight, oh the weight! One could shave another 100 or so pounds easily, then add that weight back in the form of a roll cage which I did. Top speed was just over 160mph with only 220hp lol. It was a fun yet cheap waterpumper.

 

[B00nie]

I dunno, 80's cars were even lighter. Man, I loved my 86' 951 er 944 Turbo. It weighed 2600lbs with 220hp stock which was easily bumped up. But the weight, oh the weight! One could shave another 100 or so pounds easily, then add that weight back in the form of a roll cage which I did. Top speed was just over 160mph with only 220hp lol. It was a fun yet cheap waterpumper.

Yes the safety tech has advanced very quickly and each extra safety measure usually means more weight. I wouldn't want to drive in an old car even if it was a Volvo or an S-class Mercedes which are both known to be forerunners in safety tech. A 25 year old Volvo 940 was crashed against a modern 'small car', Renault. The Volvo lost the battle hands down and deformed leathally while the small Renault protected the occupants fully.

 

[thesmokingman]

Yes the safety tech has advanced very quickly and each extra safety measure usually means more weight. I wouldn't want to drive in an old car even if it was a Volvo or an S-class Mercedes which are both known to be forerunners in safety tech. A 25 year old Volvo 940 was crashed against a modern 'small car', Renault. The Volvo lost the battle hands down and deformed leathally while the small Renault protected the occupants fully.

Yea, of course the old car lost as it came from a time before crumple zones. This brings up a dilemma as cars get bigger and fatter for vairous reason from safety to comfort to utility they get heavier and heavier. Weight and size are counter to efficiency so somethings gotta give, right?

 

[B00nie]

Yea, of course the old car lost as it came from a time before crumple zones. This brings up a dilemma as cars get bigger and fatter for vairous reason from safety to comfort to utility they get heavier and heavier. Weight and size are counter to efficiency so somethings gotta give, right?

Of course if you could get a MODERN Volvo it would beat that Renault hands down. But a modern Volvo costs 4 times more than the Renault lol. It's an option for the few.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

My last car was a 90's Civic and I routinely got 50 MPG on the highway. What does a modern Civic hybrid get on the highway?

As has already been stated, people bring this up all the time without considering emissions new cars have to meet that these old cars did not, things have changed ALOT. The 90's Civic was also 1,000lbs lighter than the current line, the 90's was around 2k lbs while the new model is around 3k lbs (stronger frame, tech/features, airbags and safety features, much larger cabin etc. And there is no current Civic hybrid. And fuel mileage of what you get is not the same as EPA rating, which has very specific driving habits and measurements. Myself, I can get FAR better mpg in my car than it's EPA rating, EPA ratings have also changed from how they were tested back in the day to now, it is harder to get now. Also keep in mind that your "50MPG 90's Civic" got an EPA combined rating of 26MPG, yes, 26. If you pick the smaller engine and 5spd that jumps to about 32MPG. With a whopping 102HP, and 1,000lbs less weight to haul around, the current Civic is 180HP and gets 36MPG all while pulling 1,000lbs more weight of features and safety requirements and having to meet today's emission regulations.

The current Civic is also something around a foot longer, 6inches wider etc etc, bring that old 90's Civic up to what the current Civic has to deal with to pass regulations in the US and watch it get 20MPG or less.

 

[OldGator]

One major advance everyone forgets about that new cars have is airbags (assuming you don't have bad inflators). Old cars didn't have them even if the car subassembly was already a good unibody design. The required use of safety restraints along with the addition of airbags has likely done as much to save lives due to enforcement.

 

[oROEchimaru]

Anyone have these in wisconsin? I wanted a mazda 3 a few years ago but heard they turn in to rust buckets in salting road states...

 

[Dr. Righteous]

So, because I come with facts on how and engine works I don't know the myth that has developed around this engine? Of which most work was not even done by smoky on? Right right.
Where are these GM engineers that tested MPG and power output? Oh, thats right, Smokey said so. Why don't you go build this motor and toss a HHO generator on it as well, free fuel for life!!!!1111!!

YOU didn't present any facts showing you are pretty ignorant about the principals of it operations as well as knowing who Smokey Yunick was. So if you consider yourself a car guy it would be like a fan of western movies having no idea who John Wayne was.
Literally GM engineers would send him prototype cylinder head that under preformed. Smokey would redesign the lacking aspects of them and send them back. He was a self taught outside-the-box thinker and this is how he accomplished things most could not. Engineers have been trying to crack the nut of the adiabatic engine for a very long time. Smokey Yunick succeeded where everyone else failed.
Back in the old days it was pretty common for huge corporations to steal intellectual property from individuals because they could. (a well known case was Ford stealing the design for the intermittent windshield wiper from its designer. They did it because he was a school teacher) The little guy couldn't afford to fight a long court battle. Smokey was not going to let this happen to him.

This article is a pretty good synopsis of the entire history.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-smokeys-hot-vapor-engine/

 

[Silentbob343]

YOU didn't present any facts showing you are pretty ignorant about the principals of it operations as well as knowing who Smokey Yunick was. So if you consider yourself a car guy it would be like a fan of western movies having no idea who John Wayne was.
Literally GM engineers would send him prototype cylinder head that under preformed. Smokey would redesign the lacking aspects of them and send them back. He was a self taught outside-the-box thinker and this is how he accomplished things most could not. Engineers have been trying to crack the nut of the adiabatic engine for a very long time. Smokey Yunick succeeded where everyone else failed.
Back in the old days it was pretty common for huge corporations to steal intellectual property from individuals because they could. (a well known case was Ford stealing the design for the intermittent windshield wiper from its designer. They did it because he was a school teacher) The little guy couldn't afford to fight a long court battle. Smokey was not going to let this happen to him.

This article is a pretty good synopsis of the entire history.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-smokeys-hot-vapor-engine/

Why hasn't someone like Christian Koenigsegg taken the idea and run with it. He has resources is an outside the box thinker as well, i.e. currently trying to develop camless heads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_von_Koenigsegg

 

[Deleted member 184142]

YOU didn't present any facts showing you are pretty ignorant about the principals of it operations as well as knowing who Smokey Yunick was. So if you consider yourself a car guy it would be like a fan of western movies having no idea who John Wayne was.
Literally GM engineers would send him prototype cylinder head that under preformed. Smokey would redesign the lacking aspects of them and send them back. He was a self taught outside-the-box thinker and this is how he accomplished things most could not. Engineers have been trying to crack the nut of the adiabatic engine for a very long time. Smokey Yunick succeeded where everyone else failed.
Back in the old days it was pretty common for huge corporations to steal intellectual property from individuals because they could. (a well known case was Ford stealing the design for the intermittent windshield wiper from its designer. They did it because he was a school teacher) The little guy couldn't afford to fight a long court battle. Smokey was not going to let this happen to him.

This article is a pretty good synopsis of the entire history.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-smokeys-hot-vapor-engine/

So, you buy into myth.

I know full well who he is and have covered this many many times with people who have little understanding of engines, no less ever built one. He did not succeeded at anything, for that you would need PROOF, of which none exists, outside of a single miracle motor that he and now his close friend will not let anyone see. The claim to not wanting anyone to steal something would make sense....IF he had pursued the motor after, the very fact he shelved the motor to never do anything with it and never let anyone else look at it speaks wonders. He also got patents, had the motor worked and a proper patent was all he needed for protection. The single case of the intermittent wiper the guy showed them how it worked and copied the unpatented work. The claim he left critical functions out of the patent that made it work is just ridiculous, those are the things to want to patent above all, the reason people use this excuse is due to the fact those patents have entered public domain and countless "believers" have tried to make the motor work and have failed. And being true believers, they can not accept it didn't work as claimed and so the only answer is there must be some magic cam profiles etc etc no one knows about.

You seem to think that because I am not a believer that means I have no idea who he was, I am sorry, but I can't believe in something that has zero proof and has been disproven over and over again. If you would like to go step by step and explain how this motor would function, I would be more than happy to go step by step and explain in detail how it will not work. But until there is proof or at the VERY least some theory on how this motor works outside of wild claims, it is impossible to counter an argument of "it just works".

He also did not fix heads or engines, or cars like lore claims, he had an engine builder that did stuff for him, including this wonder engine, Smokey did very little actual work on them. Even his own race cars from GM were brought to a shop of his where a GM team of workers built and made changes to meet class requirements and get extra power, he did very little of that. But let me guess, you also believe he raced a scale sized car or any of the other wild tales that follow the Smokey name? Wait wait, I bet he is on Mars with Tesla in the time traveling space ship they built together right?

 

[Dr. Righteous]

So, you buy into myth.
I know full well who he is and have covered this many many times with people who have little understanding of engines, no less ever built one.
He did not succeeded at anything, for that you would need PROOF, of which none exists, outside of a single miracle motor that he and now his close friend will not let anyone see. The claim to not wanting anyone to steal something would make sense....IF he had pursued the motor after, the very fact he shelved the motor to never do anything with it and never let anyone else look at it speaks wonders. He also got patents, had the motor worked and a proper patent was all he needed for protection. The single case of the intermittent wiper the guy showed them how it worked and copied the unpatented work. The claim he left critical functions out of the patent that made it work is just ridiculous, those are the things to want to patent above all, the reason people use this excuse is due to the fact those patents have entered public domain and countless "believers" have tried to make the motor work and have failed. And being true believers, they can not accept it didn't work as claimed and so the only answer is there must be some magic cam profiles etc etc no one knows about.
You seem to think that because I am not a believer that means I have no idea who he was, I am sorry, but I can't believe in something that has zero proof and has been disproven over and over again. If you would like to go step by step and explain how this motor would function, I would be more than happy to go step by step and explain in detail how it will not work. But until there is proof or at the VERY least some theory on how this motor works outside of wild claims, it is impossible to counter an argument of "it just works".
He also did not fix heads or engines, or cars like lore claims, he had an engine builder that did stuff for him, including this wonder engine, Smokey did very little actual work on them. Even his own race cars from GM were brought to a shop of his where a GM team of workers built and made changes to meet class requirements and get extra power, he did very little of that. But let me guess, you also believe he raced a scale sized car or any of the other wild tales that follow the Smokey name? Wait wait, I bet he is on Mars with Tesla in the time traveling space ship they built together right?

You don't believe it. I get it.
The events and the people involved here are 30+ years ago and the person in question is long dead. So it can't be true right?? Sheesh!
You are delusional plain and simple.
I've have books by Smokey myself, and he was a very prolific writer in his time writing for major magazines.
But then again, this was a long time ago so it never happened right?
The work that Smokey Yunick did and what he accomplished are known and documented facts.
So Smokey was a con artist that didn't know anything about engines, just rode the coat tails of other people. Riigggghttt. Good luck that.

By the way, I have been wrenching on cars since the early 80s and have built several engines including modified ones. Yourself?

BTW, Putting a turbo on a 4 banger doesn't count.

 

[nutzo]

Wonder how much better mileage a hybrid would get with this tech?

One of the problems with this compression ignition is that it doesn't work at low RPM's. Because of this Mazda still uses spark plugs at low speeds.

Toyota managed to improve the mileage of the 2018 Camry Hybrid to 47mpg highway. (2017 was only 38 mpg)
Wouldn't mind seeing another 20% improvement (55 mpg).

They add some efficiency improvement to the drivetrain, but the main improvement was due to the engine now using direct injection.
Since a Hybrid has electric motors for low speed operation, it would seem that tech might be good for a serial Hybrid.

 

[Silentbob343]

You don't believe it. I get it.
The events and the people involved here are 30+ years ago and the person in question is long dead. So it can't be true right?? Sheesh!
You are delusional plain and simple.
I've have books by Smokey myself, and he was a very prolific writer in his time writing for major magazines.
But then again, this was a long time ago so it never happened right?
The work that Smokey Yunick did and what he accomplished are known and documented facts.
So Smokey was a con artist that didn't know anything about engines, just rode the coat tails of other people. Riigggghttt. Good luck that.

By the way, I have been wrenching on cars since the early 80s and have built several engines including modified ones. Yourself?

BTW, Putting a turbo on a 4 banger doesn't count.

Neither does slapping heads on a block. Let's be honest none of us have built or designed an engine. Most have assembled from parts, maybe ported some heads at most.

Wonder how much better mileage a hybrid would get with this tech?

One of the problems with this compression ignition is that it doesn't work at low RPM's. Because of this Mazda still uses spark plugs at low speeds.

Toyota managed to improve the mileage of the 2018 Camry Hybrid to 47mpg highway. (2017 was only 38 mpg)
Wouldn't mind seeing another 20% improvement (55 mpg).

They add some efficiency improvement to the drivetrain, but the main improvement was due to the engine now using direct injection.
Since a Hybrid has electric motors for low speed operation, it would seem that tech might be good for a serial Hybrid.

Good idea, but adds cost and complexity. Depends on the price point they are attempting to achieve as well as the profit margin they want.

 

[nutzo]

My last car was a 90's Civic and I routinely got 50 MPG on the highway. What does a modern Civic hybrid get on the highway?

A new (2018) Camry hybrid XLE is rated at 47 mpg on the highway.
Based on my 2013 model, you would likely see over 50 mpg if you kept the speed under 70 mph.

This is a mid side car, likely weights 2x what your civic did, and includes all the current creature comforts and safety features.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

You don't believe it. I get it.
The events and the people involved here are 30+ years ago and the person in question is long dead. So it can't be true right?? Sheesh!
You are delusional plain and simple.
I've have books by Smokey myself, and he was a very prolific writer in his time writing for major magazines.
But then again, this was a long time ago so it never happened right?
The work that Smokey Yunick did and what he accomplished are known and documented facts.
So Smokey was a con artist that didn't know anything about engines, just rode the coat tails of other people. Riigggghttt. Good luck that.

By the way, I have been wrenching on cars since the early 80s and have built several engines including modified ones. Yourself?

BTW, Putting a turbo on a 4 banger doesn't count.

How long ago it happened does not matter, if it was yesterday I would still be asking for proof, that you have yet to provide. Outside of a link to hotrod magazine (LOL) that only recounts what they were told, with zero testing done. How many magazines he wrote for has no say in if this engine worked and has no relation to the topic. If it's known and documented, where is this documented fact? Are you saying he did hand the motor over to engineers for testing?

As for my work on motors, again, also has nothing to do with if his motor works or not, but I will play along. I started at age 12 in a speed shop, sweeping the floors, owner was a friend of my dads who worked as a mechanic for a local Porsche dealer. By 15 I had fully rebuilt my first motorcycle engine on my own and was very active in assembly of motors at the shop with the mater techs. By 16 I planned and built my first turbo type 1 VW motor in a blow through carb setup, by 18 I helped build our shop car a 1963 belvedere with a fully built 440, since then I have built everything from 125cc karting motors to V10 boat motors and everything inbetween. However, as I said above, how much experience someone has building motors does not have any relation on lack of proof for this so called motor, when you care to post some actual testing done on the motor or something other than word of mouth from Smokey, I will respond, until then the further name calling and and person attacks will be ignored.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

How long ago it happened does not matter, if it was yesterday I would still be asking for proof, that you have yet to provide. Outside of a link to hotrod magazine (LOL) that only recounts what they were told, with zero testing done. How many magazines he wrote for has no say in if this engine worked and has no relation to the topic. If it's known and documented, where is this documented fact? Are you saying he did hand the motor over to engineers for testing?

As for my work on motors, again, also has nothing to do with if his motor works or not, but I will play along. I started at age 12 in a speed shop, sweeping the floors, owner was a friend of my dads who worked as a mechanic for a local Porsche dealer. By 15 I had fully rebuilt my first motorcycle engine on my own and was very active in assembly of motors at the shop with the mater techs. By 16 I planned and built my first turbo type 1 VW motor in a blow through carb setup, by 18 I helped build our shop car a 1963 belvedere with a fully built 440, since then I have built everything from 125cc karting motors to V10 boat motors and everything inbetween. However, as I said above, how much experience someone has building motors does not have any relation on lack of proof for this so called motor, when you care to post some actual testing done on the motor or something other than word of mouth from Smokey, I will respond, until then the further name calling and and person attacks will be ignored.

I understand your point; it is "vapoware" (excuse the pun) in your opinion since smokey never let anyone take the engine apart etc, etc.
This article touches on some of the reasons why he kept the wraps tight on it.

http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=qq6GBPoHQpAC&pg=null&query=1983
Page 82

BTW, I'm a MoPar guy myself.
I've built RB, B, LA , Magnums, and have a 2004 Hemi on a stand I going to tinker with when I get a chance.

 

[Nanogrip]

Bros, all this talk about 80's - 90's cars achieving great MPG, what if we put a modern Civic engine in an 80's - 90's Civic, gas mileage would hit 60+ MPG.

 

[mope54]

I did that with my '89 BMW. I assume mileage would be high if I didn't haul fucking bawls everywhere I go.

 

[SixFootDuo]

1990 Metro Geo - 39 city / 46 highway stock. Also, if you filled in the gaps around the grill / blocked any faux air intakes that had no effect on engine cooling, wheel skirts, slightly higher PSI in tires, etc you could increase range to 85 - 90mpg

 

[N4CR]

Of course if you could get a MODERN Volvo it would beat that Renault hands down. But a modern Volvo costs 4 times more than the Renault lol. It's an option for the few.

I bet that Volvo would've done just fine in a full frontal and non partial overlap. Infact I have seen quite a few pics of similar situations where they have. They were the first cars designed with collapsible engine mounts so it would slide under the passenger compartment...
Yes I want to LS swap one as a DD but this got me thinking about getting a newer RWD model to LS swap now.

 

[N4CR]

Bros, all this talk about 80's - 90's cars achieving great MPG, what if we put a modern Civic engine in an 80's - 90's Civic, gas mileage would hit 60+ MPG.

This is what we do in the swap community.

K24 CRXs and shit like that do pretty well if relatively stock.
I have an S2000. They are good for about 20-25MPG stock, drop an LS in it and gear it and you can get 30+ with not too conservative driving... 3x the torque, 2.6x power and more efficiency. Modern engines let you have your cake and eat it.

The little turbo ones can be pretty pathetic though, a permanent exhaust impediment when out of boost doesn't do so well on efficiency.... or enrichening mixture when on boost. Turbos are there to make smaller, cheaper built engines, not efficiency. This is why I love the SBC approach. Volumetric efficiency - a 6.2L engine that's no longer than a 2L 4 and only weights 30-50lbs more and has a lower CoG to boot...

 

[ND40oz]

Yes I want to LS swap one as a DD but this got me thinking about getting a newer RWD model to LS swap now.

newer RWD models don't exist

The little turbo ones can be pretty pathetic though, a permanent exhaust impediment when out of boost doesn't do so well on efficiency.... or enrichening mixture when on boost. Turbos are there to make smaller, cheaper built engines, not efficiency. This is why I love the SBC approach. Volumetric efficiency - a 6.2L engine that's no longer than a 2L 4 and only weights 30-50lbs more and has a lower CoG to boot...

How many SBC are you stuffing in transverse applications though? Every Mazda uses a transverse config as do almost every mpg champ from the 80s/90s. I get 25+ mpg with a little 2L in a 3 row SUV and my 2.0L diesel wagon gets 40+ mpg as long as I keep it under 80. It gets over 50 mpg if I want to poke along at 60 and it'll still get low 30s when cruising at 100-110 mph.

 

[DejaWiz]

Cars were making great progress in MPG increases until some of us started demanding heated seats, entertainment systems, and other bloat that made cars heavier and fatter over the past decade or so.

And, yes, the requirement of having ethanol in fuel steals about 10% or so from our mileage due to lower energy content of the fuel.

Almost all vehicles with heated seats, infotainment systems, etc are also available without those options via base model equipment, and the MPG difference with or without those options is immeasurable/insignificant. Don't blame the heated seats and touch screen...blame the mandatory engine-choking emissions and safety equipment.

...ethanol sucks and needs to go away. Corn would probably be about a fourth of the price if it did.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

1990 Metro Geo - 39 city / 46 highway stock. Also, if you filled in the gaps around the grill / blocked any faux air intakes that had no effect on engine cooling, wheel skirts, slightly higher PSI in tires, etc you could increase range to 85 - 90mpg

This is the opposite end of the spectrum but to prove a point that power (efficiency) = better fuel economy the last car I fully built was built as a cruiser and for descent mileage. It was a '69 Dodge Coronet 440. Originally a 318 2bbl car.
I built and swapped in a 383 B engine (that is a big block) that was built with 10:1 CR, KB pistons, .488 lift crane cam. Head were stock rebuilt but milled to yield the 10:1 squeeze with a .040" quench in the chambers. I ran a Edelbrock RPM dual plane manifold and an Edelbrock #1407 carb. Dual exhaust, 3 speed auto with a B&M 2500 stall converter. Gears was 3.23:1 but it had non slip rear end. Highway cruse that car got 18 mpg. That is pretty dang good considering these old cars didn't have overdrive, or a locking converter, or any modern anything. The stock 318 2bbl only got 14 MPG hwy. The car was not geared to launch hard off the line it was plenty fast and got good enough mileage it didn't bankrupt me to drive it all the time. Highway cruising was so effortless in that car it was a blast to drive. If I would have kept it I would have swapped to a Carter Thermoquad which was a carb designed for good cruise mileage and good power. I probably could have hit 20 mpg hwy easy.

 

[N4CR]

newer RWD models don't exist

Damnit, they only do AWD in the SUVs now eh?

How many SBC are you stuffing in transverse applications though? Every Mazda uses a transverse config as do almost every mpg champ from the 80s/90s. I get 25+ mpg with a little 2L in a 3 row SUV and my 2.0L diesel wagon gets 40+ mpg as long as I keep it under 80. It gets over 50 mpg if I want to poke along at 60 and it'll still get low 30s when cruising at 100-110 mph.

That's brilliant economy, diesels are the best for that, densest fuel and compression ignition. Diesel is another option, 3C swap a camry, would cost less too. And be easier to swap, plus be under the radar

Fair point on transverse cars. NA + small and light works great for efficiency.
GM only made the LS4 a transverse FWD v8, the gearbox was the weak point. The accessory drive system was very useful for people doing tight swaps though, as it had the shortest clearance of anything for quite a while.
Edit: there have been a few LS4 swapped vehicles done but not so common. Fieros also do this sometimes..
I don't think I'll ever see one in New Zealand though.

This is the opposite end of the spectrum but to prove a point that power (efficiency) = better fuel economy the last car I fully built was built as a cruiser and for descent mileage. It was a '69 Dodge Coronet 440. Originally a 318 2bbl car.
I built and swapped in a 383 B engine (that is a big block) that was built with 10:1 CR, KB pistons, .488 lift crane cam. Head were stock rebuilt but milled to yield the 10:1 squeeze with a .040" quench in the chambers. I ran a Edelbrock RPM dual plane manifold and an Edelbrock #1407 carb. Dual exhaust, 3 speed auto with a B&M 2500 stall converter. Gears was 3.23:1 but it had non slip rear end. Highway cruse that car got 18 mpg.

Beautiful! All things considered that is great mileage. Pretty high compression for back then too, guess it handled the low octane stuff fine?
You make me want to step up my engine bay game.



Here's my baby. Only resonator + exhaust, plumbing, wiring, under tray and stealth flares left on the list till she lives.
Still retains FMR layout, just lol.