Mazda Claims There Is No Demand for Electric Vehicles

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The point was that with Fossil fuels huge pollution is business as usual. With batteries there are ways to manage it better. Of course companies will cut corners, but it's still better to keep the effects out of the cities. Noone is suggesting that electricity is all rainbows and unicorns. Classic strawman fallacy. Electricity is only better, not perfect.
     
  2. thejokker

    thejokker Gawd

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    Sorry... but not better. Pretending that batteries are not toxic is not being realistic. Electric cars have inferior range and may never be able to compete with ICE without even more toxic batteries.

    Talk about a fallacious argument: Electric cars will be better once a better technology is developed. Similarly there are a lot more cars in America now than in the 1960's yet the air quality has improved significantly. Maybe we can produce all the batteries on the other side of the world so we can pretend to be green here in the United States. What happens when the government stops subsidizing electric car's and the actual true cost falls to the consumer? Electric Cars = smoke and mirrors
     
  3. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Pretending? In what way batteries are toxic, unless you blow them up or otherwise puncture them? Then my laptop battery is just as toxic. The manufacturing of batteries is a toxic process, which is localized, and can be handled with safeguards in place to prevent or minimize environmental impact. You can't do that with fossil fuels.

    Now you're just shifting the subject. Of course they have inferior range currently and how does that relate to pollution? Right, no way at all.

    Again you're strawmanning. There was no statement made that electric cars are better in every regard. They're better in not polluting the cities, and they have a few other perks.

    The air quality is not better because cars are oh so much cleaner now. Yes they're cleaner somewhat, but they'll never be completely clean. The air quality is better because in the 1960s trough the 1970s, most of the increased energy demand was fulfilled with coal power. Since then most new power plants are either renewable, nuclear, or burn natural gas, which is much cleaner than coal.
    Also the argument of low expectations. Just because we're better off than in 1960, doesn't mean we should stop trying to be even better.
    You mean the measly few thousand dollar subsidies that electric cars get in a few states? As manufacturing of electric cars is ramped up they'll become cheaper. Early adopters always pay the highest price. It's like that with every new technology.

    I understand that you have an almost religious hate towards electric cars. Many people do. But don't try to ideologize it with reason, because reason says fossil fuels are to be phased out from the road. People in the early 1900s had the same kind of hate towards motor carriages while riding their horse carriage. People are too predictable.
     
  4. dbu8554

    dbu8554 [H]ardness Supreme

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    It was a joke, Rotary engines are shit, and Apex seals do not wear like piston rings, it was a joke that they are a wearing part, like brakes and tires. Hence why would they replace it? So glad they stopped making cars with Rotary engines.
     
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  5. thebeephaha

    thebeephaha 2[H]4U

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    I drive a Nissan Leaf for my commuter car. I'll never go back to a gas car for daily driving. Mazda is being stupid here and is going to be left behind.
     
  6. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Calm your tits.... just because you don't like rotary engines doesn't mean everyone else in the world agrees with you. It was a fun little car that I'd autoX from time to time and you could rev to 10K and have a blast doing it. It was quirky and different and I had when when I owned it. I'd take an RX7 FD any day of the week even to this day, just because the amount of sex the car drips. Fact of the matter is they replaced the entire engine for me, didn't cost me a dime, and I went on my merry way.


    you act as if there's never been a single instance of another high strung, high maintenance engine in existence. IMS bearings on certain model year porsches, ferraris that randomly caught on fire due to a type of adhesive they used.... so glady they stopped making 911's and 458's right?

    Have you ever owned one? I'm trying to see why you are "so glad" they stopped making them if it's never affected you in the slightest. Or are you just complaining because you like having something to complain about. One of the things most true car guys understand at some point in their lives, there will be cars that are slow, ugly, impractical, downright dangerous, and people still love them. Why? because everyone is different. Your singular view of the world is pretty funny, and also pretty sad.
     
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  7. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    *high five* on electric. My stop gap solution car is my current volt... and the one thing nobody truly understand till they are in they experience it first hand: is how awesome it is never having to go to the gas station to refuel. Leaving home with a full "tank" every morning after only about 3 seconds of effort to plug/unplug.

    Sadly, I needed the range extending feature of the Volt, I drive a crap ton for work and family is a few hundred miles away, to make 8.9 gallons last for 1500 miles though, yeah that's awesome no matter what :)
     
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  8. thejokker

    thejokker Gawd

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    Yes; the manufacturing of batteries is a toxic process but you are also ignoring the disposal of these same toxic batteries. Recycling will also be a toxic process and there is also the danger of batteries in disposal sites seeping into the water supply. Should electric cars ever become as mainstream as ICE than disposing of tens of millions of toxic batteries becomes an environmental nightmare that could exceed the problems we have with ICE's.

    Similarly studies have shown bovine flatulence produces more "pollutants" than cars. Why would anyone want to risk polluting our water supply when all the ICE's in the world are cleaner than all the cow's in the world farting?
    http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...ging-to-planet-than-co2-from-cars-427843.html

    I get it: you have a religious like belief in man-made global warming. I'm assuming you haven't been following the science...
     
  9. WorldExclusive

    WorldExclusive [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Car? lol

    When I see an electric Heavy Duty Pickup, then I'll know Detroit is serious.
    Imagine infinite torque to pull whatever you hitch up. Nissan Titan XD will do for now.
     
  10. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    Torque is only infinite at Zero RPM. Even the electric buses use some kind of transmission whether it's two or three speed or what not.

    You'd need a trailer for the batteries though. Guess I could float the backhoe on top of them. And with that mass even an overnight charging might not be enough with the current state of the art. Who knows what the future will bring.

    Some engineer down the road will solve the density issue for the batteries.
     
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  11. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    I'd be happy if my fridge, microwave, dishwasher, and garbage disposal weren't all on the same circuit. Same with the entire upstairs for that matter.
     
  12. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    I've been saying it for years, a hybrid truck wouldn't need that many batteries and should do quite well with torque. They just need to license Toyota's design.
     
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  13. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    That sucks. I buy and renovate a lot of houses and the first thing I do is rewire for the modern era. That means LED lighting, Quad receptacles (2x20amp) on kitchen counters instead of single 20 amp or 2x15 split duplex, motion detector switches in places like basement crannies and USB charging ports on all general use receptacles. Biggest thing I hate is the lack of outdoor receptacles with proper GFI, I always stuff one on each side of the house externally as well as any decks (now required by code). I always wire garage outlets with 20 amps now as well. No reason not balance circuits well anymore but it's not easy unless you're gutting a house and can expose the wiring.

    That's would be fine for light duty stuff but I bet they'll be underpowered for anything serious. But that design could replace a pile of what I call vanity trucks.. people who just drive them as cars and toss the canoe in once a year.
     
  14. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    Those are some excellent electrical ideas that I'll need to copy! I already am a huge fan of 20a circuits, but the rest of it I haven't thought of.

    As for the truck, we'll just have to wait and see if I'm ever eventually right. :D
     
  15. Business6

    Business6 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well, you know this guy probably isn't having fun reading his inbox today. Saying something like that does nothing but alienate a brand regardless if it is his personal opinion or something that comes up in discussions with other executives and just spilled out. Whether or not he's speaking for himself or the direction of company remains to be seen.

    And if you're asking me to choose between my Miata and a Tesla I wouldn't take the Tesla. Too many things I don't need or want.
     
  16. dbu8554

    dbu8554 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I dislike them because they are a fucking disaster of a design. Who cares if its revs to 10k emissions/fuel consumption are a shitty balancing act on that engine. It is a poor design hence why it is not used anymore. If you would like to argue that we can compare any 2017 rotary powered car to anything else, oh wait shit I guess we can't do that.

    It does nothing exceptionally well except rev to high RPM's. You say I am sad yet you are pining over a 20 year old car that needed major engine work more often then I need brakes.

    The RX7/Rotary did do some types of racing well, but since this thread is about cars for the masses, the RX7 in that regard is shit. You keep comparing it to high end cars that are not meant to be driven everyday and are generally known to be unreliable, proving my point that its a shitty engine design, so what was the RX7 Mazda's attempt at letting normal folks know what it's like to own an unreliable car?

    And yes I generally dislike Ferrari's I feel they are overrated, and overpriced and with all the rules Ferrari has in place to "protect its brand" or whatever the fuck they do over there I could care less if they stopped production on them.

    And no I have not owned one but I have worked on them on a race team, I found the engine it's self in racing conditions to hold up well but not enough advantages to justify it's existence.

    So you enjoy your RX7 for the money I would rather have a car that performs well and is reliable like a Miata.
     
  17. TwistedAegis

    TwistedAegis [H]ardForum Junkie

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    He never said an RX7 or 8 was for the masses, it was a side comment. As a former RX8 owner as well, I've never owned or driven another car that fun.

    As for electric cars, I still wonder if some mass hyperloop or pod style solution isn't the way to go, electric rails driven by nuclear power. 4 wheels and a local motor/battery for the last mile delivery, then drive itself back to the main lines.
     
  18. AK0tA

    AK0tA Gawd

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    You sound a lot like our household, we may take a more labor intensive route but with great satisfaction that we can harvest our own meat and eggs and veg's all organic, heat our 3900sqft home with wood and supliment our income from quality art /crafts we make in our spare time. It's just rewarding and fun. I am a cabinet maker by trade and learning blacksmithing to make custom hinges and locks for custom doors I am looking at producing. My wife wants a hobbit hole door on the side of our house so I am going to make that happen ;) My shop is electric but I have a hoard of antique tools I am restoring that are belt driven and I am working on making a boiler so I can power them by steam.
     
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  19. SmokeRngs

    SmokeRngs [H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2008

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    You know, I have a question for the people who say electric vehicles are some sort of utopia. There are four vehicles and four people who can drive in my household. Going anywhere populated requires a minimum 20 mile round trip and the closest true population center is a 50-60 mile round trip assuming where in that population center you are going and that assumes you're only making the trip to go to a single location with no additional stops. The weather tends to be quite cold in the winter as in well below freezing. The summers tend to get rather warm as well with temps into the triple digits at times. There are two spots for indoor parking of vehicles but only two spots.

    With that information, I'd like to know how the hell all electric cars would even remotely be feasible. Most of the information being given out with regards to charging indicates that many people would need to have additional electric service added to the home and that's just for a single vehicle. There are four in this household. Actually, there are three cars and a 3/4 ton truck which is absolutely needed. You're sure as hell not pulling boats, trailers and travel trailers with a car. Add into that the loss of battery capacity due to rather low and high temps through large chunks of the year. Then you have the fact that two vehicles must be parked outdoors. How is that going to effect charging and efficiency? Then you get into power loss situations which happen somewhat often due to the storms we have year round.

    Here's another one for you. There's no way in hell I'm giving up the stereo system in my car. You can take your anemic stock stereo systems and shove it. How badly is that going to effect range of the electric car. I don't have a massive system by any means but I'd say I'm using 300w-400w when I have my stereo going.

    The simple fact is that fully electric vehicles simply will not work for most people. It's a niche market where few people won't be inconvenienced by them. It wouldn't surprise me that most people with them only use them when they are convenient and have an ICE vehicle or two around for when the electric doesn't work. Until an electric can be as reliable as an ICE vehicle for the majority of the population they will be nothing but niche cars and curiosities.
     
  20. Poik

    Poik [H]Lite

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    People would shit if we did that here with the new code requiring arc faults for EVERYTHING except Kitchen Counter. They're already upset about the AFCI rules, and the rumors I've heard is that 2018 will be all recpetacles in addition to moving to 6 outlets per circuit rather than 12. A total bullshit move, but normal people don't make the rules, we just have to follow them. I don't see any benefit to moving to 6 that isn't mitigated by common sense, or perhaps a contractor who thinks about the usage a gives a shit. Even more worrisome is the lack of willingness to answer if this is just for receptacles, as the lights would be even more asinine. Excuses like "well you can still get incandescent lamps" are super weak. They're dying. An increasing number of homes could have all lighting on 1 or 2 circuits if they're going LED, but because they're using a lamp based lighting solution, it's possible someone could replace that LED with something of a higher wattage. Again, common sense need not apply.

    SmokeRngs - I have the same questions. With 1 car in a garage you're looking at major expenses to get it working. 2 cars, in a garage, isn't really a big deal, unless that second car, pushes you over the 200A threshold, but anything but the smallest of homes, or homes with gas appliances for cooking, heating, and laundry needs will be over that threshold by 200A. The Chevy Bolt is the newest EV available, and it's marketed as a car for normal people. It will charge on a standard 15A plug at a rate of 4 miles per hour. That means you will have to leave your Bolt plugged in for 59.5 hours to completely recharge the car. A 240V 32A charger - 40A circuit - will give you about 25 miles per hour which will take 9.52 hours to charge. The DC Fast Charger will give you about 180 miles per hour but gives no specs. I'd bet it's 347/480/600V solution. Each mile seems to take approximately 310-360W of charge. So extrapolating from there you'd need 175A @ 347V, 125A @ 480V, and 100.5A @ 600V for that kind of rapid charging for every charger with that ability. That's some serious power usage. Garage cars are crappy to deal with but there are solutions out there. But at 40A 240V you're only adding 29 miles of range per hour which would take 8.2 hours to completely charge. That's like the maximum you can really go. A 60A circuit gives you 34 miles per hour and drops charging to about 7 hours. That's a lot of power. The cost for that at $0.33 (Hawaiian Avg) is $26.61 per charge. Here in BC, that would set you back $12.82 as that would move you to Tier 2 @ $0.159 or so for FortisBC. In Hawaii that's really no cost savings compared to a comparable compact car. In BC, there would be some savings, but as rates continue to rise the returns diminish rather quickly.

    If you don't have a garage that's a pretty significant issue. You'd likely have to play musical cars, if you needed to charge faster than you could off an outside plug and extension cord. Big stereos, and all the luxuries would also increase drain on the electrical system of the car. I don't know how much a large stereo draws, but I expect it would have a not insignificant effect.

    I hope this helps illustrate the issues. Even at the higher voltages potentially available in businesses and commercial settings, the demand is immense. There are solutions available, but 225A @ 347V or 130A @ 600V isn't something that's just left lying around many places, because that's a lot of overhead that would have come at a premium that few would choose to pay. It's also a ridiculous amount of power - about 60500W. The numbers get confusing but I think that would run my apartment for a couple months. Rather mind boggling really.
     
  21. SmokeRngs

    SmokeRngs [H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2008

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    That illustrates my point perfectly. The people claiming the time for all electric cars is now never talk about the real world. They never talk about multi-car families. They never talk about the real usage of cars. They never talk about what happens when things don't go exactly right. It's always about how things work in what amounts to a perfect usage scenario. I don't live in an electric car utopia. We have family and friends over somewhat regularly including the occasional large family gathering. What happens when you have an additional 10-12 vehicles which need to be charged especially when several of them have already driven a few hours to get here and are essentially sitting on empty when they arrive? Even worse, how are all those vehicles going to be charged in time for them to leave later that day?

    The everyday scenarios I bring up are only the tip of the iceberg. They don't even take into account emergencies. What happens when you decide to go out one night and end up back at home at 2 in the morning and you need to leave again by 8 in the morning? The car definitely didn't have enough time to charge.

    Simply put, I'm not going to tailor my life around how I can use my car which is essentially what you have to do with an electric car.
     
  22. Poik

    Poik [H]Lite

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    Being in trades, it's the same thing as the "take transit to work day" or "bike to work" or whatever it is this month. Many people have vehicles full of stuff that cannot, in any way, do that. Additionally, a vehicle like a van, or a truck, used for work, is a large, heavy beast. If it takes 7 hours to charge a bolt to give it a range of 238 miles, I would estimate a van would have about half that range given the same pack and motors. Assuming those motors have enough gusto to move what would likely be an 8000lb vehicle, your range is now 119 miles or 60 miles each way. That's not enough. I know that's why there are no "work" EV's but if you double the capacity of the battery pack, you also double the charge time. You can increase the voltage and amperage, but we've talked about that issue. New motors might be more efficient, but even so these are physics limitations. I don't think the motors they're using are going to becoming 2x as efficient at any point, so how does that work? Power in = power out. These packs have massive capacities, so it takes a lot to top them up. How's that work? How's it work for places that aren't temperate? We can hit triple digits in the summer and drop well below freezing in the winter - and that's in town. It's even colder in the mountain passes or ski hills. How does that work?

    New batteries will have more capacity but that means it will take more power to charge them, but there's very practical limitations there. From 0 I would think the longest practical charge on a home with a normal service would be 10 hours for 48A @ 240V which is really pushing things. Also, of importance is that if you're in a townhouse or condo with 3 phase main service but only single phase in your home, you've only got 208V so you charge times will be 15-20% longer. So at 240V the maximum practical range for a pack would be about 350 miles. That's a good distance but it's going to likely require a new service to your home. At 208V your range drops to 300 in those same 10 hours, still good, but you'd have to charge for almost 12 hours to get the same range as someone with a 240V service. 120V service would be the equivalent of dial up. Even for the current Bolt it's not practical. 60 hours!?!? Telsa's talked about being able to charge in 5 or 10 minutes... Sure with enough voltage or current you can do that but that's going to be specialty fuel pump type applications. That's not a home solution. That's great for talking about how great it is, and how awesome it will be, but one of the things people like is not spending any time at the pump. Also, the infrastructure to enable that for multiple vehicles, like at a filling station would be, would be crazy. Most stations here have 2 to 4 rows with 2 double pumps per row. So to give full power to all stations just for a single row you're looking at 520A @ 600V or 900A @ 347V. For kicks, at 240V to get the same oomph you'd need 255A or a 305A service. With 3 phase like you more commonly have you're at 170A so you'd need a 225A 120/208V service for every pump. Better than single phase but still a serious load.
     
  23. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    Tesla was also talking about having an in-home large battery backup. I imagine a large in-home battery could moderately charge all day and then use its stored energy to burst charge one or two cars. That being said, I know you lose energy every time you move it around, so that will affect your electric car's miles/$ costs.