Mazda Claims There Is No Demand for Electric Vehicles

[dgz]

Gee, I wonder if they might have monetary reasons for making such a claim. Like perhaps, ICE vehicles are more profitable?

Not to mention the incoming competition. With EVs, almost anyone could do it. Not the case with ICE vehicles. Manufacturers are scared shitless. They just don't show it yet.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, and then they fight you.

 

[Krab]

Electric vehicles are just not economical for most people. They are still too damn expensive. But in the long term the prices are going to come down and the demand will increase. I know a lot of people would LOVE to have an EV for everyday commuting and grocery getting while maintaining an ICE vehicle for longer trips. We still have a long way to go building out charging infrastructure and maybe someone will figure out battery swapping or some solution to range anxiety.

It's shortsighted not to at least start exploring that potential market. And a bit stupid to actively crap on it.


Also. Part of the problem with some of the lower end EVs is entirely due to marketing. Most people don't want to be an eco-weenie with green badges and shit all over their car. They don't want a crappy looking Prius and the attached stigma. They want it have normal styling and look like every other car.

 

[Frobozz]

Also. Part of the problem with some of the lower end EVs is entirely due to marketing. Most people don't want to be an eco-weenie with green badges and shit all over their car. They don't want a crappy looking Prius and the attached stigma. They want it have normal styling and look like every other car.

On this note, I think the Honda Civic Hybrid and friends are getting it right. They look like a typical car.

 

[NoNRG]

The company where I work recently doubled the electric car charging spots available for us to use and they are still all full every day. Currently ~25 spots total.

 

[ianken]

Mazda just can't do it. Nissan, Ford, GM, and the other big guys can. And Tesla of course.

The problem here with Mazda is vision. They'll be sitting there while Tesla and the rest, along with Panasonic, drive down the main cost: batteries and they'll look dumb. Was watching some video of the "giga factory" tour when they opened it. They've driven down battery manufacturing cost in some parts of the process by over 80%. And every one of the cells that Panasonic poops out of their end of the factory rolls into the Tesla side where they make battery packs for cars and other application. The integration is nuts.

We owned a CX9 for a while. The design was wonderful but the technology part of the experience was years behind everyone else. It was a wonderful looking and driving vehicle stuffed with left over Ford electronics. This lack of technical vision will be their undoing.

I've got a Model 3 reservation, and my Audi A4 just started doing what all German cars do around 80K: getting really fucking expensive to maintain. So (as I am fortunate to be able to do so) have ordered a Model S 100D. I was hoping the A4 would make it until the Model 3 was up. But it's not to be. German Precision my ass. My wife's 13 year old Civic hybrid is still going strong (replaced the NiMH pack at 10 years). Brakes, oil and tires. That's it. Done with ICE rigs and super done with German cars. Fucking Audi. Wife will get the Model 3. As reliable as her beloved (she really love that thing) civic is, it's gonna die and it's an awful driving car. I hate it so.

 

[krotch]

I think the current speculation is that Tesla uses a very large number of 18650 li-ion batteries (we're talking thousands of cells strung together) for their battery packs.

BTW, 18650 li-ion battery cells are fantastic. Just the right size for a compact flashlight or very portable emergency cell phone charger.

It's not speculation, that's literally what it is. They're using Panasonic 18650B cells. They'll eventually be moving to Panasonic 2170 cells. It's what their gigafactory in Nevada will be producing.

 

[M76]

Common misconception that I also believed in... until I researched it a bit. Power plants are getting cleaner and cleaner.

Get rid of Oil & Gas subsidies as well as EV subsidies. We'll see who wins out. Heck.. get rid of corn subsidies too.

Also it's a lot easier to put filters and manage emissions in a big plant located at an industrial park, than to do the same with a hundred thousand cars all with individual exhausts that dump their pollution in city centers.

 

[NeoNemesis]

Lol. Have you even bothered to see how these are doing financially? I'll give you a hint.... not good.

My entire province is Nuclear and Hydro. So yes, I have checked the financials.

 

[DocSavage]

Lol. Have you even bothered to see how these are doing financially? I'll give you a hint.... not good.

That's ok, once a large number of people move to EVs, our electric rates will skyrocket and they'll be profitable again.

 

[DocSavage]

Also it's a lot easier to put filters and manage emissions in a big plant located at an industrial park, than to do the same with a hundred thousand cars all with individual exhausts that dump their pollution in city centers.

Why even put on filters? I thought the current administration was neutering the EPA?

 

[thejokker]

Fake news. Batteries are extremely recyclable and have very low environmental impact.

There was a fake news story years ago that apparently got lots of traction, showing a "moon like" landscape near a cadmium mine and using it to sell everyone on how bad batteries were, but it was really a hit job by people opposing electric and hybrid cars with no journalistic standards what so ever.

https://www.fool.com/investing/gene...rs-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx
"Recently, the Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Department of Energy undertook a study to look at the environmental impact of lithium-ion batteries for EVs. The study showed that batteries that use cathodes with nickel and cobalt, as well as solvent-based electrode processing, have the highest potential for environmental impacts, including resource depletion, global warming, ecological toxicity, and human health. The largest contributing processes include those associated with the production, processing, and use of cobalt and nickel metal compounds, which may cause adverse respiratory, pulmonary, and neurological effects in those exposed.

In other words, li-ion batteries that contain nickel and cobalt have a significant effect on health and the environment. More specifically, this includes Panasonic's automotive grade li-ion batteries, which contain lithium, nickel, cobalt , and aluminum, and a proprietary cathode geometry developed jointly by Panasonic and Tesla -- and are currently used in the Model S."

 

[thejokker]

They are already heavily subsidized. They need to come down in cost a LOT. Imagine how pricey they are with no incentives for the manufacturers and consumers...

Wrong, OPEC never increased supply, and in fact have decreased supply. Shale happened, and the United States has one of the largest shale reserves in the world second only to... yup, China.

China has the world's largest shale reserves, and for all practical purposes hasn't even TOUCHED it yet. If they did right now, world economies would shake, as oil would become insanely cheap and it would cause instability in the middle-east. But you can rest assured that China will tap that ass if oil prices climb, as its too lucrative not to.

Bullshit. You know why? Futures trading. If oil were going to be "$140+ in no time", people would be trading massively! I trust people with billions of dollars at stake more than I trust you, sorry. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, and you should put your money where your mouth is and buy $50K in futures and post back about how you're a multi-millionaire.

Cost can't be the only factor, because its a downside. Electric cars have a LOT of downsides now, and yes the crowd that fart into empty wine glasses in order to enjoy their own brand with tremendous satisfaction can get off by environmental virtue-signaling, but they can do that with a plug-in hybrid too. And I think plugin-hybrids are great for many people, and make a lot of sense. Its just pure electrics I think are premature.

Turbocharged cars work awesome at high altitudes, with virtually no change in performance. And, frankly, turbo cars are more popular today than ever before... heck, the fact that both the Mustang and Camaro are even turbocharged now should be evidence of that.

I'm glad there is a grown-up in this discussion...

 

[buttons]

I waited in line for my reservation spot for the Model 3, around 30th or so. So I should be able to get the full $7500 tax rebate, making my Model 3 only 27500, in effect. Assuming they stick to the price and the base model is good enough, of course.

If the Model 3 is significantly delayed, my backup plan (for now) is a used Leaf. They're cheap enough that I won't care too much and it has enough range for getting to work and stuff.

The real selling point for any Tesla is the supercharger network. I can go cross-country in one. No competitor's vehicle can do that on electricity. And no competitor has even started building their own superchargers. Those luxury brands trying to come up with "Tesla Killers" are all a joke, because they can't charge fast and they haven't spent anything on charging infrastructure like Tesla has.

Having leased a volt for 3 years, i can tell you its a pain sometimes to deal with range. Imagine this. You only have a 110v charger, on a volt a full charge would take 14 hours. your wife works 3rd shift so when it would normally be charging she is at work. If you had a leaf, forget about it -- your not going anywhere.

Even if your spouse doesnt work a 3rd shift what if she runs errands across town and then comes back -- you may need to wait 4+ hours to go anywhere. it is totally fine though to drive it to work and back then plug it in and use your other vehicle for non commuting

 

[nutzo]

My wife's 13 year old Civic hybrid is still going strong (replaced the NiMH pack at 10 years). Brakes, oil and tires. That's it. As reliable as her beloved (she really love that thing) civic is, it's gonna die and it's an awful driving car. I hate it so.

Reliability is one of the pluses with a Hybrid (especially Toyota). For me it's just gas, oil changes and tires.
I recently checked the brakes on my Camry Hybrid, and they still look like new. At this rate they should be good for 150K miles.
Since I do mainly city driving, the ICE runs half the time when compared to my old ICE car, so it should last 2x as long.

Even better, I don't have to bother with a smog check ever 2 years since they haven't figured out how to smog check a car that turns off the engine at idle

Honda seems to have more problems with the batteries going out prematurely, so it's not suprising you had to replace the battery after only 10 years.

 

[vegeta535]

Make a EV car that doesn't suck and is reasonably priced then come back to me. I don't want to drive a slow ugly car that needs a sunroof so I can stick my head out cause fuck these small cars. Until then EV cars can fuck off til

 

[steakman1971]

I am taking a wait and see approach to EVs. We are starting to see some nice offerings with usable ranges. However, I live in the midwest. We don't have charging stations and won't be seeing these for a while. Something like a Leaf would work for my normal work commute - just charge it up every night at my house. However, forgot about longer road trips and the like (at least for the time being!).
I'm really curious to see how well the Tesla vehicles do when they launch. I think they started around $35k? More than I am willing to pay for a vehicle, but get they are going to be premium cars. (I'm just cheap - what can I say).

 

[M76]

https://www.fool.com/investing/gene...rs-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx
"Recently, the Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Department of Energy undertook a study to look at the environmental impact of lithium-ion batteries for EVs. The study showed that batteries that use cathodes with nickel and cobalt, as well as solvent-based electrode processing, have the highest potential for environmental impacts, including resource depletion, global warming, ecological toxicity, and human health. The largest contributing processes include those associated with the production, processing, and use of cobalt and nickel metal compounds, which may cause adverse respiratory, pulmonary, and neurological effects in those exposed.

In other words, li-ion batteries that contain nickel and cobalt have a significant effect on health and the environment. More specifically, this includes Panasonic's automotive grade li-ion batteries, which contain lithium, nickel, cobalt , and aluminum, and a proprietary cathode geometry developed jointly by Panasonic and Tesla -- and are currently used in the Model S."

I think we need to take note of two very important words lurking in that quote: "potential" and "exposed". So in case of an exposure of the chemicals used and manufacturing processes to the environment or humans it can be very damaging. Compared to the pollution of the atmosphere with fossil fuels which is not just a potential, it's a constant reality. Basically they say that a catastrophe at a battery plant in which lots of the chemicals would get into the environment could be very damaging to the environment. Since normally the chemicals used in batteries are not exposed to the environment. Batteries have no emissions. And the manufacturing of the batteries is not done in the open either.

Seem like another hitpiece meant to generate FUD about batteries. I wonder who would finance such "journalism". If the domain "fool.com" wasn't telling enough.

 

[Snowdog]

I think we need to take note of two very important words lurking in that quote: "potential" and "exposed". So in case of an exposure of the chemicals used and manufacturing processes to the environment or humans it can be very damaging. Compared to the pollution of the atmosphere with fossil fuels which is not just a potential, it's a constant reality. Basically they say that a catastrophe at a battery plant in which lots of the chemicals would get into the environment could be very damaging to the environment. Since normally the chemicals used in batteries are not exposed to the environment. Batteries have no emissions. And the manufacturing of the batteries is not done in the open either.

Seem like another hitpiece meant to generate FUD about batteries. I wonder who would finance such "journalism". If the domain "fool.com" wasn't telling enough.

Yep. Lithium itself is not considered an environmental concern, the electolytes in Lithium batteries are pretty safe:

http://jalopnik.com/5210253/chinese-automaker-ceo-drinks-battery-fluid

 

[Simplyfun]

I might do a electric car if they finally make one I can put my Boss snowplow on that can also pull the construction trailer. Oh yeah, they need to go at least 700KM's between charges and recharge in 5-10 minutes (sometimes I need to get a coffee). As well, I want the same on average maintenance costs or lower I get from my Cummins equipped pickup over it's expected life (I usually trade at 500K KM's). Also, coping with the typical Central Ontario winter shouldn't drop the range and the cabin should be warm even though it's -30c out and I'm doing 100KM/h.

What do you mean I can't get that?

Well then let's just replace the Jeep Grand Cherokee because when we're down the forest access roads it would be really nice to have a silent vehicle that moves through the standing water and over the rocks as easily as that noisy old jeep. I mean it's not like my road isn't always perfectly plowed and I don't have to drive through feet of snow or large snowbanks if it's blowing out.

What do you mean I can only use it in the city and pray I make it to the next charging station? It's only big enough for a couple hookers playing blackjack and a case of beer? You'll sell me a solar panel I can put on top that will charge it only 30 days? I'm in.

What you really mean to say is that 90% of those vehicles are being sold to people who could probably make do with public transit and car sharing services in order to "actually" reduce the carbon footprint they're whining about as they try and whiz down the car pool lane with only the driver inside. Regardless of source, all produced energy, transmission and storage has a carbon footprint and an environmental impact beyond that.

Buy what you like, I really believe that. But don't try and sell me utter nonsense about how you're saving the planet. Stop driving so mucking fuch, that will help a lot more.

 

[Xrave]

No demand for electric cars?

400k preorders for the Model 3 seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[raz-0]

ubiquity my ass.

The tesla model 3 is the big deal, right? over 400k in pre orders.

February 2017, what was being called a slump in sales.

500k+ car sales
800k+ light truck sales
540k+ SUV/CUV sales.

In one craptastic month.

Mazda is small, they will follow once someone leads. Nobody is leading. Nobody wants a $37k honda fit with no range, and so far that is what we have int he sub $75k market.

 

[Verge]

ubiquity my ass.

The tesla model 3 is the big deal, right? over 400k in pre orders.

February 2017, what was being called a slump in sales.

500k+ car sales
800k+ light truck sales
540k+ SUV/CUV sales.

In one craptastic month.

Mazda is small, they will follow once someone leads. Nobody is leading. Nobody wants a $37k honda fit with no range, and so far that is what we have int he sub $75k market.

Yup.

We've still yet to see a finalized model 3. Many analysts think they are going to have to take a huge loss on each car sold... will investors keep giving them money to lose?

 

[Poik]

Having leased a volt for 3 years, i can tell you its a pain sometimes to deal with range. Imagine this. You only have a 110v charger, on a volt a full charge would take 14 hours. your wife works 3rd shift so when it would normally be charging she is at work. If you had a leaf, forget about it -- your not going anywhere.

Even if your spouse doesnt work a 3rd shift what if she runs errands across town and then comes back -- you may need to wait 4+ hours to go anywhere. it is totally fine though to drive it to work and back then plug it in and use your other vehicle for non commuting

Expanding on this from an electricians perspective and in hopes of spurring some discussion....
This is the larger and completely untalked about part about electric cars - charging them. The Canadian and US electrical codes are quite similar but I only know the Canadian ones so the US might be slightly different but please hear me out.
From my understanding most EV manufacturers have standardized on using a 50A 250V NEMA 6-50 receptacle, however the charger can be adjusted to 16A which is the maximum for a 20A circuit which allows a person in an older home to charge their car. At 120V your charge time is about 14-15 hours for a car with a smallish pack. If you can do 240V and 16A you'll get it down to about 8 hours. A dwelling cannot have a service conductor with a voltage greater than 150V to ground which rules out voltages greater than 240V - what I'm getting at is no 347/600V. At 347/600V you'd have a legit rapid charger for most any car. The problem with NEMA 6-50 is that by the code EV chargers get no derating which means they have to be applied to a load calc at 100%. This means you have to add an additional 40A or 9600W on to the demand calculation. Here many homes are already close to the maximum allowed on a 200A service and that 40A would push them into needing 400A services. You also have the additional issue of if this is truly the future, then you need 2 chargers for a double garage or maybe even a charger for every bay. This starts to get silly as you can imagine.

With a 50A plug you're also going to have to run a mimimum of #6 copper to it with longer runs requiring #4 which is fairly costly. 347/600V you'd likely be able to utilize #12 though I'd imagine that any "high voltage" runs would be required to be in AC90 or Teck90 cabling which isn't as inexpensive as NMD but the size is much easier to work with. The voltages are much nastier, but you'd be dealing with much lower current.

The single biggest problem with all of that would be infrastructure. The homes would need higher voltage or higher amperage. But the subdivisions wouldn't have enough to upgrade everyone. Power companies have totally different demand factors, but still, it's not a small issue that can just be easily fixed. Some changes would even need to be brought up with those in charge of the building code. It's doable, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something that's on their radar even though it seems to be a growing issue as are EV's really viable if they can't be charged at home? What about condos and apartments? The demand to rapidly charge 50 or 100 stalls would be insane, but if that is the future, that needs to be brought up sooner rather than later.

 

[Simplyfun]

Expanding on this from an electricians perspective and in hopes of spurring some discussion....
This is the larger and completely untalked about part about electric cars - charging them. The Canadian and US electrical codes are quite similar but I only know the Canadian

What about condos and apartments? The demand to rapidly charge 50 or 100 stalls would be insane, but if that is the future, that needs to be brought up sooner rather than later.

These are well known points and very valid. The cost of changing the infrastructure over and demand on the grid will be incredible if we see any real uptake on these EV's. Installing a 400A service isn't cheap and if you and your three neighbours all wanted to do it at once you'd also be on the hook to upgrade the transformer. If half the block wanted upgrades, then the main line to the neighbourhood would also require a new run from the substation in many cases. If half the neighborhoods wanted those upgrades then the substations would need upgrades. Then the lines feeding the substation would need an upgrade.

Then we can watch rates skyrocket as demand soars and suddenly it's cheaper to burn gold juice squeezed from diamonds.

 

[buttons]

At the time that i leased the volt, the local power company offered to install a 240v charger in my home for free. It was a rental and the land lord said no -- my wife and i loved the electric car and will be getting another one to replace our silverado (never used it for truck stuff anyway) For what its worth, our electric bill went up about $15 a month and we averaged 1000 miles a monthly.

 

[lcpiper]

Such a stupid thing for Mazda (and Toyota too).

I drive a Nissan Leaf now and I will be totally honest: I will never own an ICE vehicle again. I was 17th in line for a Tesla Model 3 in Colorado and that will be my next car!

I have absolutely no interest in them. Not even a top of the line Tesla. They don't tickle me at all, certainly not with their current range limitations and charging time issues.

The tech will need to grow and mature much more before I would consider one.

If you lived here;

and drove twice a year to here;

Through here;

And there is not one single Fast-Charge EV station along the route or at the destination.

I think you would have similar reservations.

But not everyone does so it balances out.

 

[Snowdog]

Expanding on this from an electricians perspective and in hopes of spurring some discussion....
This is the larger and completely untalked about part about electric cars - charging them. The Canadian and US electrical codes are quite similar but I only know the Canadian ones so the US might be slightly different but please hear me out.
From my understanding most EV manufacturers have standardized on using a 50A 250V NEMA 6-50 receptacle,

I see no standardization on 240V plugs, because the preferred solution for 240V chargers is to hardwire in the charger, not plug it in. I think many cars will top out around 30 Amps. The Chevy Bolt with >200 mile range has a 7.2 KW charger. Which is obviously aimed at a 240A/30A service.

The single biggest problem with all of that would be infrastructure. The homes would need higher voltage or higher amperage. But the subdivisions wouldn't have enough to upgrade everyone. Power companies have totally different demand factors, but still, it's not a small issue that can just be easily fixed. Some changes would even need to be brought up with those in charge of the building code. It's doable, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something that's on their radar even though it seems to be a growing issue as are EV's really viable if they can't be charged at home? What about condos and apartments? The demand to rapidly charge 50 or 100 stalls would be insane, but if that is the future, that needs to be brought up sooner rather than later.

Sure, if everyone bought an EV tomorrow there would be trouble. But it is only going to grow at a fairly slow rate, with plenty of time to adapt.

 

[AK0tA]

You know GM actually made a coal powered turbine El Dorado.

It literally fed powdered coal on a conveyor belt to the gasifier to run a turbine engine, and apparently it actually made a crapton of power for the day, but the throttle response was craptastic as the conveyor speed adjustment in delivering the fuel was super laggy, emissions were crappy, and it sounded like a jet engine, heh.

I would drive that like a pimp going to church on Sunday. The bigger the cloud the better, I burn coal everyday my Blacksmith shop is open and it is glorious.

 

[Simplyfun]

I would drive that like a pimp going to church on Sunday. The bigger the cloud the better, I burn coal everyday my Blacksmith shop is open and it is glorious.

I do have a wood powered gasification driven tractor , I guess I could put a genset on the PTO and then charge the car. I have some hard coal (maybe a half ton) but it doesn't crack all that great in my little gasifier, I doubt I'd get far.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Mazda is right, compared to the vast numbers of cars sold electric cars are just a 1/100th of a drop in a bucket.

I routinely drive trips over 700 miles, tell me exactly how I am going to accomplish that with an electric car? They might make sense if I lived in a city and I never went outside of it...

factor in the environmental impacts of producing all that electricity and battery packs and you get to understand why it is a no go

 

[Flapjack]

That's ok, once a large number of people move to EVs, our electric rates will skyrocket and they'll be profitable again.

ROFL.

Expanding on this from an electricians perspective and in hopes of spurring some discussion....
This is the larger and completely untalked about part about electric cars - charging them. The Canadian and US electrical codes are quite similar but I only know the Canadian ones so the US might be slightly different but please hear me out.
From my understanding most EV manufacturers have standardized on using a 50A 250V NEMA 6-50 receptacle, however the charger can be adjusted to 16A which is the maximum for a 20A circuit which allows a person in an older home to charge their car. At 120V your charge time is about 14-15 hours for a car with a smallish pack. If you can do 240V and 16A you'll get it down to about 8 hours. A dwelling cannot have a service conductor with a voltage greater than 150V to ground which rules out voltages greater than 240V - what I'm getting at is no 347/600V. At 347/600V you'd have a legit rapid charger for most any car. The problem with NEMA 6-50 is that by the code EV chargers get no derating which means they have to be applied to a load calc at 100%. This means you have to add an additional 40A or 9600W on to the demand calculation. Here many homes are already close to the maximum allowed on a 200A service and that 40A would push them into needing 400A services. You also have the additional issue of if this is truly the future, then you need 2 chargers for a double garage or maybe even a charger for every bay. This starts to get silly as you can imagine.

With a 50A plug you're also going to have to run a mimimum of #6 copper to it with longer runs requiring #4 which is fairly costly. 347/600V you'd likely be able to utilize #12 though I'd imagine that any "high voltage" runs would be required to be in AC90 or Teck90 cabling which isn't as inexpensive as NMD but the size is much easier to work with. The voltages are much nastier, but you'd be dealing with much lower current.

The single biggest problem with all of that would be infrastructure. The homes would need higher voltage or higher amperage. But the subdivisions wouldn't have enough to upgrade everyone. Power companies have totally different demand factors, but still, it's not a small issue that can just be easily fixed. Some changes would even need to be brought up with those in charge of the building code. It's doable, but to the best of my knowledge it's not something that's on their radar even though it seems to be a growing issue as are EV's really viable if they can't be charged at home? What about condos and apartments? The demand to rapidly charge 50 or 100 stalls would be insane, but if that is the future, that needs to be brought up sooner rather than later.

These are well known points and very valid. The cost of changing the infrastructure over and demand on the grid will be incredible if we see any real uptake on these EV's. Installing a 400A service isn't cheap and if you and your three neighbours all wanted to do it at once you'd also be on the hook to upgrade the transformer. If half the block wanted upgrades, then the main line to the neighbourhood would also require a new run from the substation in many cases. If half the neighborhoods wanted those upgrades then the substations would need upgrades. Then the lines feeding the substation would need an upgrade.

Then we can watch rates skyrocket as demand soars and suddenly it's cheaper to burn gold juice squeezed from diamonds.

Very good points. All things that the starstruck green energy haven't considered. Of course, they argue that it's happening "gradually", but that doesn't take away from the massive amount of work (and what it would cost). Top it all off with how little renewal energy contributes to the calculation, and it's clear this is waste of time and money... at least until someone figures out how to produce electricity cheaper and quicker.

I would drive that like a pimp going to church on Sunday. The bigger the cloud the better, I burn coal everyday my Blacksmith shop is open and it is glorious.

I was thinking nearly exactly the same thing, hahah.

 

[jeremyshaw]

On this note, I think the Honda Civic Hybrid and friends are getting it right. They look like a typical car.

Civic hybrid is no longer made, though there is a slow selling Accord hybrid.

In my view, the kind of person who would actually buy a hybrid wants to virtue signal, hence the abundance of HYBRID badges, on basically any hybrid car. Even fender badges.

I'll slightly go off topic; Toyota has proven themselves capable of making a reliable (long term) hybrid that can take actual use and abuse. Honda has proven they cannot make such a hybrid (the numerous lawsuits over various generations of Civic and Insight hybrids with failing traction batteries has dissuaded me from considering Honda hybrids until their current gen of new hybrid systems have proven themselves for at least 5-6 years - though with Honda's bad history with hybrids, uptake has been slow on the new generation).

If I was in the market for an eco car, I'd likely wait on the next Camry hybrid. Maybe Toyota has finally figured out how to install the steering wheel correctly in a Camry, since the current gen has its steering wheel off-center against the driver's seat.

If I was in the market for an eco car, but felt like burning money, I would buy a Tesla. They are the only American luxury car company, no exceptions.


EDIT: as for the original topic, I feel Mazda cannot justify making an EV. They don't have to balance any truck/SUV fleet, like GM, Ford, or even Toyota does. Honda has some large cars, but they generally do alright in EPA tests.

As for the other assertion I saw on "anyone knows how to make an EV." Just about every company, whether they are an established automaker or not (Tesla), has proven that statement dead wrong. It's fucking hard to make a good EV, just like it is hard to make a good car. Automaking is not easy, especially the art of making cars people actually want.

 

[Poik]

I see no standardization on 240V plugs, because the preferred solution for 240V chargers is to hardwire in the charger, not plug it in. I think many cars will top out around 30 Amps. The Chevy Bolt with >200 mile range has a 7.2 KW charger. Which is obviously aimed at a 240A/30A service.



Sure, if everyone bought an EV tomorrow there would be trouble. But it is only going to grow at a fairly slow rate, with plenty of time to adapt.

I don't think you realize how much is involved with adapting. At the current voltage very few areas have the infrastructure in place to double the services to every home. I say double because anything over 200A is complicated by the need for a disconnect switch or a double meter base with 2 panels. But still much more than changing Conductors and a panel or breaker.
If you bump the voltage you then need to bring it back down so it does all the stuff it does today in addition to charging your car(s).
It's not an easy solution and it's not taken into account not to the scale that Tesla is talking about. And like I said a house is easy. A house has room for more stuff usually. Condos and apartments are a nightmare. Most mechanical rooms are fullish. They don't have room for another full high voltage service to run car chargers. They also often located centrally in the building and they'll be pissed if they have to give up space for the additional power required. Lots of EMT on the slab to hook it all up.

 

[Snowdog]

I don't think you realize how much is involved with adapting. At the current voltage very few areas have the infrastructure in place to double the services to every home. I say double because anything over 200A is complicated by the need for a disconnect switch or a double meter base with 2 panels. But still much more than changing Conductors and a panel or breaker.
If you bump the voltage you then need to bring it back down so it does all the stuff it does today in addition to charging your car(s).
It's not an easy solution and it's not taken into account not to the scale that Tesla is talking about. And like I said a house is easy. A house has room for more stuff usually. Condos and apartments are a nightmare. Most mechanical rooms are fullish. They don't have room for another full high voltage service to run car chargers. They also often located centrally in the building and they'll be pissed if they have to give up space for the additional power required. Lots of EMT on the slab to hook it all up.

Ahhh, I love the smell of FUD in the morning.

One of my friends had a 240v/30A charger put in his garage. It was trivial as even on on his very old home, they had already wired the garage for 240v/30A. This is long before anyone was thinking about EVs.

Bump the voltage? I would imaging every home in North America that has power, has 240V service, and no one is doing home chargers that require above that.

Yes it would be difficult to retrofit dense living Condo/Apt buildings, but new Construction is starting to mandate Level 2 charging in many jurisdictions, and any builder with an ounce of foresight would do it even in the absence of regulation.

And again, it won't happen overnight, it will be gradual, people with EVs will move into EV friendly buildings. People already owning Condos that aren't EV friendly won't buy EVs.

 

[Ducman69]

And again, it won't happen overnight, it will be gradual, people with EVs will move into EV friendly buildings. People already owning Condos that aren't EV friendly won't buy EVs.

Correction, rich people will find a new morally justified tool in segregating their neighborhoods, as they always have, this time under the banner of being green by mandating expensive EV chargers be installed in the area and mandated on any renovation.

Keep out the riff-raff while getting a pat on the back along with a nice tax break so the middle-class (that can't afford a third electric car themselves) can subsidize the rich to boot. Its a great plan, but not everyone is falling for the spiel of "promoting diversity" for cheap labor for your businesses while simultaneously living in gated areas and adopting policies that ensure that cheap labor pool never gets too close, aside from cleaning the pool and handling the landscaping and what not and then promptly pissing back off to their shanties.

Another reason many promote it, is that often the places they are mandating it are in dense enough areas that they would be prime candidates for public transportation which are far more environmentally friendly than car-culture anyway, but then you're again potentially mixing with the riff raff. Subsidizing expensive electric cars and mandating chargers ensures that personal mobility is championed, rather than spent on more trains, buses, etc.

 

[TordanGow]

Correction, rich people will find a new morally justified tool in segregating their neighborhoods, as they always have, this time under the banner of being green by mandating expensive EV chargers be installed in the area and mandated on any renovation.

Keep out the riff-raff while getting a pat on the back along with a nice tax break so the middle-class (that can't afford a third electric car themselves) can subsidize the rich to boot. Its a great plan, but not everyone is falling for the spiel of "promoting diversity" for cheap labor for your businesses while simultaneously living in gated areas and adopting policies that ensure that cheap labor pool never gets too close, aside from cleaning the pool and handling the landscaping and what not and then promptly pissing back off to their shanties..

I don't look at it like that at all. At one point not too long ago indoor plumbing was rare or unavailable. Localities mandated that if the building was for occupancy then it needed to have indoor plumbing. Today pretty much everyone has indoor plumbing with very few exceptions. Requiring buildings are held to ever newer and forward moving codes isn't to "keep out the riff raff", it's to help society and living conditions continue to improve.

Another reason many promote it, is that often the places they are mandating it are in dense enough areas that they would be prime candidates for public transportation which are far more environmentally friendly than car-culture anyway, but then you're again potentially mixing with the riff raff. Subsidizing expensive electric cars and mandating chargers ensures that personal mobility is championed, rather than spent on more trains, buses, etc.

Public transport sucks. To drop off my kid at the baby sitter and then make it to work would require that I hop 7 busses over the course of 2 hours. In my can I can do that in 35 minutes. That's twice a day. 4 hours vs just over 1 hour. Sorry, but I don't have an extra 3 hours a day to spare just to use a stupid bus that isn't anywhere near as convenient.

 

[Jarod888]

Electric cars are stupid. There is more than enough oil in the ground to continue to make gas for the next 1000 years.
The major reason roads are in bad shape is because of fuel efficiency. If we didn't force idiotic fuel efficiency standards, keeping the around 15-20 mpg, we would significantly increase the amount of money from the fuel tax which would improve the roads.
Plus, find me an electric or hybrid vehicle than can go four wheeling and rock crawl. Top speed, 3-5 mph. Granny low gears and oh shit bars.

And I'm not sure about the comment that ICE don't do well at high altitudes, my Tacoma would like to disagree with you. It does awesome at 12000-13000 ft above sea level.

Take your electric car over tincup pass or mosquito pass in Colorado and let me know how that works out for ya.

 

[Dekoth-E-]

I have absolutely no interest in them. Not even a top of the line Tesla. They don't tickle me at all, certainly not with their current range limitations and charging time issues.

The tech will need to grow and mature much more before I would consider one.




And there is not one single Fast-Charge EV station along the route or at the destination.

I think you would have similar reservations.

But not everyone does so it balances out.

It is safe to assume that anyone who drives a Nissan Leaf and has no need for an ICE vehicle never drives anywhere meaningful and lives in the city. Probably largely doesn't even realize how large the world is outside said city also. Having that limited of a range would make me insane, I can do 80 miles in a day just running errands and not even realize it. I would end up getting towed constantly in one of those.

 

[Simplyfun]

Ahhh, I love the smell of FUD in the morning.

One of my friends had a 240v/30A charger put in his garage. It was trivial as even on on his very old home, they had already wired the garage for 240v/30A. This is long before anyone was thinking about EVs.

Bump the voltage? I would imaging every home in North America that has power, has 240V service, and no one is doing home chargers that require above that.

Yes it would be difficult to retrofit dense living Condo/Apt buildings, but new Construction is starting to mandate Level 2 charging in many jurisdictions, and any builder with an ounce of foresight would do it even in the absence of regulation.

And again, it won't happen overnight, it will be gradual, people with EVs will move into EV friendly buildings. People already owning Condos that aren't EV friendly won't buy EVs.

There's no FUD here. Depending on how the draw is rationed on your 200 amp panel, 30 more amps can take you over the threshold. Not everywhere has natural gas or has a straight forward wiring scheme. I for one have a normal home with liquid fuel for heat and hot water and a pellet furnace. Given that , it was only wired for 100Amps and in order to get my ARC welder hooked up properly I had to

Replace the the main panel
Replace the incoming lines (also moved from overhead to underground)
replace the meter base assembly
PAY my transmission utility to upgrade the local transformer

Would have been the same for an EV.

In the "friend" scenario you mentioned, he had a 240/30 amp circuit already in his garage. Wonderful. So now I cant do anything in the garage (like weld or heat it with electricity) because the car is charging? In that scenario I would have had to run a new stub to the garage with 6 gauge and a 60 amp supporting circuit to do it right.

What you're saying is "make do" but this is often isn't to code once you add up that maximum resistive load in the local panel. It depends what else is going on.

Also just to be that guy, your 30amp charging station requires wiring and a circuit breaker capable of handling 40amps, not 30amps. So you buds installation is illegal.

 

[Snowdog]

In the "friend" scenario you mentioned, he had a 240/30 amp circuit already in his garage. Wonderful. So now I cant do anything in the garage (like weld or heat it with electricity) because the car is charging? In that scenario I would have had to run a new stub to the garage with 6 gauge and a 60 amp supporting circuit to do it right.

Yep, you are so right, he can't Arc Weld and charge his EV at the same time. EVs are doomed.