Max Payne 3 IQ & Performance Preview & Reviewers Guide @ [H]

Simplex said:
That is a really interesting find, I was mixing the two modes thinking it will get me the best quality possible. Also, nVidia claims that Rockstar's DX11 MSAA is superior to FXAA and they recommend FXAA only for less powerful gpus that can't handle MSAA - see article I linked above.
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I'd be interested to hear more feedback and may try and take some uncompressed PNG images at full 1920x1200 resolution and from the same angle so I can better show the differences. One other person on the Guru3D forum has also said that MSAA looks worst than FXAA but I'd like to see what others think.

Try 4xMSAA + FXAA=Very High and then 0xMSAA + FXAA=Very High. On my system turning OFF MSAA actually improves the image quality as there are MORE noticable jaggies when using FXAA with MSAA. It may be that MSAA is broken on GTX 680 cards but it definitely looks worse for me... surprisingly. Also, I've noticed that HDAO actually looks inferior to SSAO too with flatter, less realistic shadowing.

I haven't tried 8xMSAA because at 1920x1200 I don't have enough VRAM. However, I may be able to use it by lowering the resolution to 1920x1080 (8xMSAA needs 4.3 GHz for GTX 680 SLI - 2.15 GB per GPU when they only have 2 GB each).
 
I can confirm that on a single 670 it is possible to select 8xMSAA in 1920x1080 - with all other options to max it take up almost exactly all available memory:



But even if it is "available" it still makes no sense as it kills performance. Even MSAA 4x can bring my factory OC'ed GTX 670 to its knees (i.e. below 50-60fps in 1080p), so I simply disabled it and set FXAA to Very High. I don't see any excessive blurring or anything. FXAA is for me the way to go, although I am very interested to see detailed comparisons of FXAA vs MSAA, mixed FXAA + MSAA vs only FXAA/only MSAA - and how it all affects performance. The number of possible combinations is quite staggering.

Right now FXAA without any MSAA seems to be the best compromise between antialiasing quality and game performance.
 
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I've posted some better comparison shots of the different combinations of MSAA and FXAA using lossless PNG images here: http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4333270&postcount=59

MSAA appears to not be working properly on my PC as the images confirm that only FXAA *on its own* effectively removes almost all jagged edges. Even MSAA + FXAA doesn't work, it's as if MSAA breaks or overrides it.

I'd be interested to hear from others if they're getting the same behaviour. Thanks.
 
MSAA is on the way out imo, it's seriously outdated tech and pointless to use over FXAA, the difference between both is not noticeable at all
 
Laffles said:
MSAA is on the way out imo, it's seriously outdated tech and pointless to use over FXAA, the difference between both is not noticeable at all
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Timothy Lottes (creator of FXAA) had an interview somewhere where he basically stated that he regretted people getting the impression that FXAA is better than MSAA. FXAA was created as a fast cheap method of AA, it does not push IQ at all. If you like blurring everything on the screen, maybe FXAA is your thing. In addition, all of the best IQ methods still require native MSAA support (ie SSAA). In fact, this problem of FXAA not really pushing IQ in the right direction is what spurred the development of TXAA per this interview. I'll try to dig it up.

I like FXAA because its fast. However, all it does is blur the entire screen - MSAA is still better, and is required for higher IQ levels (ie CSAA , SSAA) - 16-32x CSAA and SGSSAA is not possible at all with post process; they require native MSAA support. These AA methods are infinitely better than FXAA. I look forward to the next step, TXAA.....I want an evolution in image quality.
 
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sirmonkey1985 said:
stick with what you have, the upgrade from the 6950 to current gen is pathetic, if you were going from HD5k or 400 series than maybe. wait til the real next gen cards come out late Q4 this year, early Q1 next year.
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A 6950 is nearly equivlent to a 5870. A 7970 is about 50% faster than a 6970 @ stock and nearly equals a 6990 when overclocked.

Better go re-do your homework
 
Eluder79 said:
Odd, same here and it's running silky smooth at 2456x1440.
What sort of issue are you having?
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When I have crossfire enabled I get negative scaling (FPS is lower with both cards than with just 1).

Even though the FPS is well above 60 FPS (above 100 FPS in a lot of cases) the game is very jerky and stuttering. Read any recent Hard OCP review dealing with Crossfire Vs. SLI and you'll see what I mean. High FPS but jerky gameplay.

I installed the 12.6 drivers over top of the 12.4, not sure if that caused an issue. I think I'm going to uninstall, clean in safe mode and install fresh.

Will see if that fixes it.
 
Not if you look at their guide for MP3, they said that both AMD and nVidia have done a good job with CF/SLI for this game, just that SLI scales better right now.
I have no jerkiness with MP3 and CFx.
 
I was just using the example of recent Hard OCP reviews to show what I was getting, several of them said that while CFx has high framerates it is not as smooth as with SLI

I'm losing on both fronts, I get worse framerates (negative scaling) and non smooth gameplay
 
Daz1967 said:
I've posted some better comparison shots of the different combinations of MSAA and FXAA using lossless PNG images here: http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4333270&postcount=59

MSAA appears to not be working properly on my PC as the images confirm that only FXAA *on its own* effectively removes almost all jagged edges. Even MSAA + FXAA doesn't work, it's as if MSAA breaks or overrides it.

I'd be interested to hear from others if they're getting the same behaviour. Thanks.
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I did a quick test myself and I believe your are correct in your findings:

8x MSAA + Very High FXAA:


2x MSAA + Very High FXAA:


8x MSAA + No FXAA:


Very High FXAA Only:


I would have to say FXAA only looks the best and for some weird reason MSAA does the opposite of what it should do: you can clearly see the jagged edges on the white sofa and at the wall on the left.
 
I just wish we had 16:10 aspect ratio for 1680x1050 users. They are investigating... someone create a tool to allow us to play too... :(
 
xoleras said:
Timothy Lottes (creator of FXAA) had an interview somewhere where he basically stated that he regretted people getting the impression that FXAA is better than MSAA. FXAA was created as a fast cheap method of AA, it does not push IQ at all. If you like blurring everything on the screen, maybe FXAA is your thing. In addition, all of the best IQ methods still require native MSAA support (ie SSAA). In fact, this problem of FXAA not really pushing IQ in the right direction is what spurred the development of TXAA per this interview. I'll try to dig it up.

I like FXAA because its fast. However, all it does is blur the entire screen - MSAA is still better, and is required for higher IQ levels (ie CSAA , SSAA) - 16-32x CSAA and SGSSAA is not possible at all with post process; they require native MSAA support. These AA methods are infinitely better than FXAA. I look forward to the next step, TXAA.....I want an evolution in image quality.
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I don't think anyone ever though it was superior, but it is almost as good as MSAA... it's great to be able to enable AA with almost 0 performance loss. People with laptops and older GPUs can finally use AA and it's playable. Even those with new hardware can enable it and have it virtually performance free.

Some game engines AA wasn't compatible with... other games that didn't support it at all and some took huge performance hits when enabled... for these situations FXAA is PERFECT!! I've used it on games like Crysis 1 (made it highly playable with AA), GTA IV (at least it gave me AA) and I'd rather have FXAA than no AA at all.
 
What you guys don't understand is shader based AA (fxaa and mlaa) fail in motion. Anti aliasing shimmering when moving the camera occurs much worse with the shader based method, something that isn't captured in a screenshot. I'll see if I can get some video footage of this occurring with a comparison against msaa/csaa.

Now don't get me wrong I will take fxaa over nothing but if you want the best image quality use CSAA x8 with super-sampling on transparent textures. If I can't afford the performance, SMAA is better than FXAA is every way anyways. No texture bluring, less shimmer, and similar performance.

http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html
 
dnottis said:
I don't think anyone ever though it was superior, but it is almost as good as MSAA... it's great to be able to enable AA with almost 0 performance loss. People with laptops and older GPUs can finally use AA and it's playable. Even those with new hardware can enable it and have it virtually performance free.

Some game engines AA wasn't compatible with... other games that didn't support it at all and some took huge performance hits when enabled... for these situations FXAA is PERFECT!! I've used it on games like Crysis 1 (made it highly playable with AA), GTA IV (at least it gave me AA) and I'd rather have FXAA than no AA at all.
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FXAA has its drawbacks. There is aliasing in motion that you wouldn't see with 4x MSAA and it tends to blur textures.

At this point in time FXAA isn't anywhere near being close to as good as MSAA. SMAA is a lot closer actually, I think that it looks amazing combined with MSAA.

Knil said:
What you guys don't understand is shader based AA (fxaa and mlaa) fail in motion. Anti aliasing shimmering when moving the camera occurs much worse with the shader based method, something that isn't captured in a screenshot. I'll see if I can get some video footage of this occurring with a comparison against msaa/csaa.

Now don't get me wrong I will take fxaa over nothing but if you want the best image quality use CSAA x8 with super-sampling on transparent textures. If I can't afford the performance, SMAA is better than FXAA is every way anyways. No texture bluring, less shimmer, and similar performance.

http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html
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I completely agree.
 
I've looked at two systems, and played through chapter 6 on each.

X79 sytem with 7970 in CF and X58 system with 670s in SLI.

I can't get any FPS because neither AB or FRAPs works in the retail version.

Subjectively, the SLi is better, same IQ but way smoother.
The CF has some kind of glitch where the cards aren't being utilized to their fullest extent and the game play is jumpy, quick but jumpy. I think I need to roll back the driver to 12.4, the 12.6 beta is the culprit I think.......I switched in the middle to see what would happen, and the performance is pretty crappy.

The 670s are nearly 100% utilized and the game is very smooth, I must say.

Both systems are running maximum settings, SSAO, and high FXAA. nvidia 301.42, AMD with the 12.6 beta1 CAPs.
 
Knil said:
What you guys don't understand is shader based AA (fxaa and mlaa) fail in motion. Anti aliasing shimmering when moving the camera occurs much worse with the shader based method, something that isn't captured in a screenshot. I'll see if I can get some video footage of this occurring with a comparison against msaa/csaa.

Now don't get me wrong I will take fxaa over nothing but if you want the best image quality use CSAA x8 with super-sampling on transparent textures. If I can't afford the performance, SMAA is better than FXAA is every way anyways. No texture bluring, less shimmer, and similar performance.

http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html
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Does SMAA work in MP3?
 
The best news is it looks like Max Payne 3 is a game with an excellent PC version which is vastly improved over the console versions. In most games thats not the case and the PC version does not bring sufficient improvements over the console version. There are good exceptions like BF3, Alan Wake, Deus Ex .But still they are fewer to come across.
 
Im playing with the following setup:

AMD Phenom II X6 1090T @ 4 Ghz w/ Coolermaster Hyper 212+ stock fan
Gigabyte 890GX-UDMP4
Mushkin Enhanced Black "Frostbite" DDR3 1600 2 x 8 gig. Kit's
Mushkin Enhanced Chronos Deluxe 120 SSD
750 Gig Seagate Baracuda 7200.11
Sound Blaster X-Fi
PowerColor Radeon HD 7870 (1.2 Ghz gpu / 5.6 Ghz ram)
Dell 24" 2410
Coolermaster 690 Advanced II w/ Corsair HX 650

Catalyst 12.4's no cap update & under fraps @ 1080 im getting a solid 60 fps thru the 5 chapters i went thru of the game.
 
Looks like the SMAA injector breaks SLI, having that enabled slaughters my GPU usage down to around 60% each with a pile of stuttering on top. It's a shame too considering how much cleaner the game looks with SMAA instead of FXAA.
 
Seems to be a conflict withe the Social Club DRM (the overlay breaks it).
 
For the ones who do not have the latest and greatest, this game runs just fine on my GTX 580 at 1920x1080 with everything maxed (except I'm not using any msaa since I don't see I need it with fxaa).

Seems this game can't figure out if it wants to be a movie or a game (seems the game developers don't know either). The over used effects on the cutscenes are a little over the top for me.
 
Mike89 said:
For the ones who do not have the latest and greatest, this game runs just fine on my GTX 580 at 1920x1080 with everything maxed (except I'm not using any msaa since I don't see I need it with fxaa).

Seems this game can't figure out if it wants to be a movie or a game (seems the game developers don't know either). The over used effects on the cutscenes are a little over the top for me.
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You hit it right on the head......to me it's a movie where you occassionally get to break in and shoot some guys, then go back to the movie.

I have enjoyed it, there are some quirks in the mechanics I don't like, and I can't run FPS because I have a retail copy.....:eek:

It's fun overall, a difference from my steady diet of "normal" shooters.
 
featsdontfailme said:
I got the game today......4 discs....:eek: 35 GBs, damn.... great article, thanks.

I won't have time tonight, but am anxious over the weekend to spin this up against my GTX 670 SLi and see how it does.

My son runs a Crossfired HD 7970 setup, so if I can tear him away from Diablo, it would be interesting to see how the game runs there too.

I appreciate the info on the drivers. I didn't know there was a CAP 12.6 for this game.....
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Crossfire 7970 for Diablo III? Talk about a waste of cash.
 
I like the game so far and find the cut scenes to be good, aside from the weird blurry vision and all those type of effects. But the story is good, and love the familiar voice as Max.
 
Has anyone notice that the game will often fall out of full screen and into windowed mode while using anything other than the DX 9 path? Very annoying. In DX 9 it's never happened. A couple of posts over in the Steam forums have noticed the same problem. Running the game on my sig rig, everything maxed out DX (no pun intended) at 5760x1080, no MSAA. The performance if incredible though, I'm hitting like around 100 FPS, not really benched it. Everything else seems fine, just the full screen issue.
 
Can I mix 12.6 cap with 12.2 driver?

12.2 is the last driver that works for me without clock bugs.

also, even without caps installed, 12.2 runs maxpayne3 fine.
 
Melon said:
Crossfire 7970 for Diablo III? Talk about a waste of cash.
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Gee thanks for the advice.
I bet you use your computer for just one task? Right?:rolleyes:

dr.kevin said:
Can I mix 12.6 cap with 12.2 driver?

12.2 is the last driver that works for me without clock bugs.

also, even without caps installed, 12.2 runs maxpayne3 fine.
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Yes you can use CAPs with any driver, within reason.:D
 
Been playing it nice and smooth on the rig in my sig. No complaints about performance at all.
There are WAY too many cut scenes though.

I love shoot/dodge bullet time. I can usually head shot 5 people in one nice jump.
Try jumping down the bleachers at the stadium.. You are air born a LONG time.
 
cyper.bg said:
I did a quick test myself and I believe your are correct in your findings:

8x MSAA + Very High FXAA:


2x MSAA + Very High FXAA:


8x MSAA + No FXAA:


Very High FXAA Only:


I would have to say FXAA only looks the best and for some weird reason MSAA does the opposite of what it should do: you can clearly see the jagged edges on the white sofa and at the wall on the left.
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Interesting so it isn't just NVIDIA/GTX 600 cards that are affected. It looks very much like MSAA isn't working properly on AMD's HD 7970 either based on your screenshots. Thanks for that.

MSAA + FXAA on my system looks as bad as MSAA + *NO* FXAA which is strange because you'd think having both together would offer superior anti-aliasing to use just one or the other. It seems to me that MSAA is broken, period (or so poor as to be worthless), and that it overrides FXAA when that is used. I don't see how though because MSAA is applied during the rendering stage and FXAA is a fullscreen effect applied AFTER the rendering stage. In other words even if MSAA really is broken the image quality with MSAA + FXAA should be identical to just using FXAA on its own.
 
I'm running 2 6970s with 12.6 beta and 12.6 cap

the game runs smooth, but when the cutscenes are playing, some of the panes will be some random static image from that level, or a black screen, makes the cutscenes pretty much unwatchable, but the game runs smooth other than that, I was wondering if anybody else was having this same problem
 
ValVed RaY said:
I'm running 2 6970s with 12.6 beta and 12.6 cap

the game runs smooth, but when the cutscenes are playing, some of the panes will be some random static image from that level, or a black screen, makes the cutscenes pretty much unwatchable, but the game runs smooth other than that, I was wondering if anybody else was having this same problem
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I am having this same problem

I was having negative scaling issues with crossfire when I installed 12.6 over 12.4. So I did a full uninstall, booted to safe mode and ran Driver Sweeper. Then did a fresh install of 12.6 and 12.6 CAP 1.

I get smooth gameplay now, but I do have the issues with the cutscenes. It is not present with Crossfire disabled.
 
Gotta hand it to Rockstar for making a good PC version instead of crappy port like with GTA IV.

The game runs really nice with all maxed (no MSAA) @5760x1080 with a single 7970. It did seem like there was some issue with either MSAA or HDAO with my card, since I was getting around 100 fps and it still felt like 15 fps, but removing MSAA and switching to SSAO seemed to solve the lag problem after restart.
 
Anyone having problems with the game staying in full screen while running DX 11 mode?
 
heatlesssun said:
Anyone having problems with the game staying in full screen while running DX 11 mode?
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No, although the first time I ran the game after it updated today's patch it started up windowed. However, pressing Alt-Enter fixed it and now the game is back to loading up fullscreen as it should be.

The patch also enabled the use of MSI Afterburner and FRAPS in the retail version (which already worked in the Steam version anyway) so it looks like Rockstar may have either removed the DRM or changed it (the retail disc version of L.A. Noire has never worked with FRAPS or Afterburner for me either).

More importantly though, the patch fixes the custom install issue with the non-Steam versions when using a pathname that contains spaces. I noticed that this issue was not mentioned in the release notes, likely because Rockstar are a bit embarassed about releasing a game with such a silly issue (the same one that L.A. Noire had, I might add, and I reported the issue to Rockstar last year when I bought the game and stumbled across the fix: remove all the spaces!).
 
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