Man Shoots Laser At Ferry, Slapped With $100,000 Fine

Megalith

Megalith

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What’s the appeal of pointing a laser at airplanes and boats again?

A man who pointed a high-powered blue laser at a Washington State Ferry last year has been ordered to pay a $100,000 civil penalty by the US Coast Guard in Seattle. The civil penalty was issued to Mark Raden of Freeland, Washington, who was determined by Coast Guard investigators to have shot a high-powered blue laser at the ferry Tokitae while it was on a run from Mukilteo to Clinton in October. Raden pointed the laser from the deck of another ship, the Kitsap, which was passing by the Tokitae. The laser hit the ferry master and first mate of the Tokitae, and the incident resulted in eye injuries to both men. The chief mate's vision still hadn't recovered fully a week after the laser strike, according to statements by Washington State Ferry officials at the time.
 
LightningCrash said:
You're gonna open your eyes to fire at an unmanned laser turret or drone? Better you than me.
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Swipe down the filter on your rifle's scope.... or, if this actually became a problem, it wouldn't be long before a handful of weapons manufacturers created a small portable gun, rocket, artillery, etc., with a laser-resistant camera that could instantly pinpoint the source and rain fire down on it. And of course if you had the airspace above the battle, shining a laser around is a good way for an aircraft to instantly blanket your position with bombs or bullets.

One of the worst things you can do in a battle is make your exact position instantly obvious to everyone involved.
 
kumquat said:
Swipe down the filter on your rifle's scope.... or, if this actually became a problem, it wouldn't be long before a handful of weapons manufacturers created a small portable gun, rocket, artillery, etc., with a laser-resistant camera that could instantly pinpoint the source and rain fire down on it. And of course if you had the airspace above the battle, shining a laser around is a good way for an aircraft to instantly blanket your position with bombs or bullets.

One of the worst things you can do in a battle is make your exact position instantly obvious to everyone involved.
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Sure the thing gives its position away... but it's a cheap-ass drone, and by the time it's given its recent position away, somebody's permanently blind.

By saying you need custom products or preparations to not be maimed by this, you've just proven its effect.
 
Elf_Boy said:
When are people going to stop treating laser pointers as cheap toys?
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We aren't talking about laser pointers. Laser pointers are <5mw devices used for pointing things out. These are handheld lasers. Much more powerful. Don't confuse them with laser pointers.
 
LightningCrash said:
You're gonna open your eyes to fire at an unmanned laser turret or drone? Better you than me.
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The US military has an abundance of laser-guided ordinance. It should go without saying that they've developed ways to deal with laser-guided ordinance from other militaries.
 
evilsofa said:
The US military has an abundance of laser-guided ordinance. It should go without saying that they've developed ways to deal with laser-guided ordinance from other militaries.
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It goes without saying that they have some tools for disrupting laser designation. Dazzlers present some different problems, though. It goes without saying, of course.
 
damicatz said:
We aren't talking about laser pointers. Laser pointers are <5mw devices used for pointing things out. These are handheld lasers. Much more powerful. Don't confuse them with laser pointers.
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Yes, I know what they are and arnt... I have one, a blue 1 watt - laser pointer.

Call it high powered if you wish.

It is still not anything more then a longer range laser pointer that people who dont have impulse control have no business touching.
 
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Eye for an eye. Wish they could find some way to temporarily blind this guy for a year and see how he likes it....
 
Megalith said:
The laser hit the ferry master and first mate of the Tokitae, and the incident resulted in eye injuries to both men. The chief mate's vision still hadn't recovered fully a week after the laser strike, according to statements by Washington State Ferry officials at the time.
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sorry but as somone that works with lasers, I don't buy this... unless the guy was a couple feet away from their faces the only thing they could have "suffered" is flash blindness... no difference than taking a picture and seeing the after-image of a flash, those blue pointers they sell are very divergent and the mw/mm2 goes down pretty rapidly and distance gets greater and the beam diverges more...
 
I'm not a big laser person... but I keep on hearing it's dangerous when making contact with the eyes... What if it was a direct hit? Would that account for their injury?
 
Who's firing thees things?

Psychopath's. (Including but not limited to):
Anti social personality disorder.
People with mental history including schizo.
People who hate the noise and will do anything to get rid of it.
Sadist
Those who trip on power. (These would include forum trolls)
Terrorist testing new techniques.

All in all, they are weak cowards.

Take your pick.
 
LightningCrash said:
You're confusing laser designation with laser dazzlers.
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Wouldn't the principal be the same? Look for an energy spike in a tight band that is common to these weapons and then fire in that direction.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Wouldn't the principal be the same? Look for an energy spike in a tight band that is common to these weapons and then fire in that direction.
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If you managed to make an awesome anti-laser weapon that will fire bullets at any green laser, well, they'll just make sure it's in the midst of your troops before they flip that dazzler on.

Fortunately, a lot of governments actually signed a treaty promising not to use lasers that would permanently blind anyone.
 
pothb said:
I'm not a big laser person... but I keep on hearing it's dangerous when making contact with the eyes... What if it was a direct hit? Would that account for their injury?
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If it was at night and their eyes were dilated it would account for the injury.
 
Using the term "shoot" instead of the term "point" or "shine" seems to be designed in order to make his actions seem more nefarious.

Don't get me wrong, this is a stupid thing to do, and a fine would be appropriate, but $100,000? Yikes.

Also, I wonder how they catch the people who point lasers at planes and ships.
 
Well, if their actions caused blindness, I can totally see a fine like that.
 
damicatz said:
We aren't talking about laser pointers. Laser pointers are <5mw devices used for pointing things out. These are handheld lasers. Much more powerful. Don't confuse them with laser pointers.
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Yeah, but the problem is that they can be bought on eBay, cheaply, and shipped directly from China, circumventing U.S. Laser regulation.

Most people buying these things probably just think of them as a "cool more powerful laser pointer".
 
pothb said:
Well, if their actions caused blindness, I can totally see a fine like that.
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Agreed. But I'd argue that it would be better for everyone involved if a civil suit awarded this kind of money to the person who was injured. Now the guy is going to be bankrupt from paying his fine to the government by the time the civil suit is settled, and injured crewmembers won't receive much.
 
Elf_Boy said:
Yes, I know what they are and arnt... I have one, a blue 1 watt - laser pointer.

Call it high powered if you wish.

It is still not anything more then a longer range laser pointer that people who dont have impulse control have no business touching.
Click to expand...

It's really not a laser pointer at that point. I mean, you could consider a ~KW CO2 laser a 'laser pointer' too, even though it can melt steel and shit. 1 W is extremely over powered for a 'laser pointer.' It's not a matter of 'call it what you wish,' that is a fact. Blue scatters more off aerosols and other shit in the air so it's not even that great as a pointer. Our eyes also respond less strongly to it, that's why they sell them at such high powers, so you can see them better. Not that a 400 mW green laser is totally safe, but it's safer than the blue one. Just because it doesn't look 'that bright' to your eye (even though it totally does) doesn't mean it's not doing damage. And that's just talking about the backscatter. I'm sure a lot of people are unknowingly damaged their eyes with 'consumer' lasers. There should be stronger restrictions on who can access them. People don't read the warnings.
 
Everett Herald said:
Mark Raden, 27, is accused of shining an industrial laser — a model powerful enough to start fires — at a police officer in July and then two ferry captains in October.

In forensic testing, the laser was pointed at a piece of wood.“The piece of wood immediately began to darken and smoldered in about 3 seconds, with visible smoke coming off,” a trooper wrote. “It was obvious the laser was a hazard and could be used as a weapon.”
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From here: Whidbey man charged for pointing high-powered laser at ferry captains - HeraldNet.com

So not just a "laser pointer". And the guy is also accused of a third incident last year involving a laser and threatening to throw acid on people. He sounds like a real winner.
 
LightningCrash said:
future warfare is going to have a lot of blinding lasers in it... and smoke bombs.
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Nope, against Geneva conventions to deliberately blind with a laser. Targeting/range finding lasers have blinded people in the past though as a side effect - they are very strong, invisible pulsed lasers. Hell, a ruby laser from an old 90s abrams (range finder) will whack a hole though a mm or so of steel from memory - seen it done but not sure on the metal.

kumquat said:
Doubt it. Lasers are point source, and it's really easy to determine exact heading and shoot things back.
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Easy to make a remote point source.... e.g. 20 output heads over 1km distance via fibre, good luck killing all of them before you are taken out.


kumquat said:
Swipe down the filter on your rifle's scope.... or, if this actually became a problem, it wouldn't be long before a handful of weapons manufacturers created a small portable gun, rocket, artillery, etc., with a laser-resistant camera that could instantly pinpoint the source and rain fire down on it. And of course if you had the airspace above the battle, shining a laser around is a good way for an aircraft to instantly blanket your position with bombs or bullets.

One of the worst things you can do in a battle is make your exact position instantly obvious to everyone involved.
Click to expand...

It's extremely hard to make something laser resistant when it turns into plasma instantly.
We are not talking about lower powered visible lasers here. We're talking 100-200kW in an area the size of two thumbtips. Hell, a properly focused laser can exceed the temperature of the core of the sun.
But yes, countermeasures will exist and this is a field I am working on. Their effectiveness is questionable using conventional projectiles though. We are rapidly approaching a time where projectiles will be shot out of midair by lasers.

Again, good luck shooting conventional shit at something that can have a range of 30-40km with zero travel time. A single future laser system could potentially take out an entire battalion of conventional tanks and a good part of an airforce, solo.
We're likely talking future firing rates of a pulse per half a second or so, imagine that it can acquire the next target in hundreds of milliseconds and you're looking at a platoon wiped out in 10-20 seconds...

FLECOM said:
sorry but as somone that works with lasers, I don't buy this... unless the guy was a couple feet away from their faces the only thing they could have "suffered" is flash blindness... no difference than taking a picture and seeing the after-image of a flash, those blue pointers they sell are very divergent and the mw/mm2 goes down pretty rapidly and distance gets greater and the beam diverges more...
Click to expand...

You should then also know the minimum safe intrabeam viewing distance for a 6W 6mm@1mrad 445nm beam is 775m. Hell lets halve that for 3W.... still over 500m
If they were shining from 100m away you still need OD 1.78 - it's over 150mW/cm2 @ 39cm2 - thats a big, wide, eye fucking beam which is hard to avoid in a wheelhouse and WILL cause permanent damage, it could be hard to notice initially or a persistent blemish is entirely possible.
Of course none of this is accounting for any windows and assuming worst case.

For the laymen, 1mW is maximum safe exposure. Laser industry is proposing higher limits, as the 1mW limit seems rather conservative after many years of overexposure in dodgy raves.. or accidents etc. But it is the level at which damage became a very low chance in prior studies. 152mW/cm2 is still over 100mW through a 7mm pupil - it's going to be focused tenfold or more at the back of your retina and fry cells. Simple as that.

I know as a laser enthusiast, you are trying to assuage the fears of lasers but in these cases it actually works in our advantage, to make the pointer fucktards look like fucktards and make people realize how useless and dangerous these high power laser pointers are. It makes it harder for me to professionally use (real pointers - green or red in single mode at lower power) to point out things to customers or staff on site, so the few genuine users suffer for it too.

TLDR: swinging round watts of 445nm in a hand held single beam is never safe at any reasonable (>400m) distance.
 
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N4CR said:
You should then also know the minimum safe intrabeam viewing distance for a 6W 6mm@1mrad 445nm beam is 775m. Hell lets halve that for 3W.... still over 500m
If they were shining from 100m away you still need OD 1.78 - it's over 150mW/cm2 @ 39cm2 - thats a big, wide, eye fucking beam which is hard to avoid in a wheelhouse and WILL cause permanent damage, it could be hard to notice initially or a persistent blemish is entirely possible.
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6W @ 1mRad I seriously doubt that he had a multi-diode beam corrected pointer?

a regular spyder type pointer is 1W at >1.5mRad sorry but
 
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