Man Fined $500 for Writing "I Am an Engineer" in Email to Oregon Engineering Board

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Megalith

Megalith

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Apparently, you can be fined in Oregon just for being an armchair engineer. Some guy wrote to his state’s government to complain about the timing of yellow lights, but he got fined instead after being accused of practicing engineering without being licensed. Wait, does this mean that every engineering student in Oregon can be fined, too?

…Mats Järlström, an electronics engineer living in Beaverton, Oregon, sent an email to the state's engineering board. The email claimed that yellow traffic lights don't last long enough, which "puts the public at risk." "I would like to present these facts for your review and comments," he wrote. The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying responded with this dystopian message: "ORS 672.020(1) prohibits the practice of engineering in Oregon without registration … at a minimum, your use of the title 'electronics engineer' and the statement 'I'm an engineer' … create violations." In January of this year, Järlström was officially fined $500 by the state for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered."
 
I have no problem with this, IF he used "Engineer" vs "engineer". As far as I know, the capitalization matters, and people shouldn't say they have credentials that they don't. For example, many people don't know that Dr Dre never actually went to medical school.
 
I'm from Alberta and the engineer title works basically the same way. Students are engineers in training and members of apega. Professionals pay membership dues to the organization and have to meet some requirements to use the title engineer both personally or in a company name. You essentially have to apprentice under a professional engineer for 4 years (similar to trades).

I'm a software developer and went off on my own after university (didn't work under a PEng) so I'm not eligible to use the term engineer when describing myself even though I have a degree in computer engineering and have worked in the industry my whole career. Such is life.

The whole thing is just bad PR though so on the one hand I'm surprised they bothered but on the other hand if they don't aggressively and publicly enforce their ownership of the term it loses it's value.
 
andrewaggb said:
I'm from Alberta and the engineer title works basically the same way. Students are engineers in training and members of apega. Professionals pay membership dues to the organization and have to meet some requirements to use the title engineer both personally or in a company name. You essentially have to apprentice under a professional engineer for 4 years (similar to trades).

I'm a software developer and went off on my own after university (didn't work under a PEng) so I'm not eligible to use the term engineer when describing myself even though I have a degree in computer engineering and have worked in the industry my whole career. Such is life.

The whole thing is just bad PR though so on the one hand I'm surprised they bothered but on the other hand if they don't aggressively and publicly enforce their ownership of the term it loses it's value.
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Here I'm pretty sure it's only if you sign something as a PE (professional engineer) and you also have to stamp it. Usually only really needed in the architecture and civil engineering fields if you're a consultant or similar. Otherwise you operate under 'industrial exemption'. I have a degree in engineering (microelectronic) and my job title (given to me) is data engineer, so I guess they can fine my company if they don't like it...

Honestly, I'd go to court on that (and he has) and at least have my say before I paid the $500, it's ridiculous, especially if he works for a company and falls under 'industrial exemption' and did not solicit business from the state. There should be plenty of arguments as he's not asking for compensation or to be hired to do engineering work for the state or claiming (at least from what I saw) to be a PE.
 
It'd be much better if anyone at all can claim to be an engineer regardless of education or qualifications. Who doesn't want the foundation of their home "engineered" by a high school dropout who works at McDonald's and practices engineering in their spare time?

The title engineer actually means something. If you're not one, don't say you are one. Pretty simple.
 
Yes, Professional Engineers are licensed and have credentials where as someone like me whose title is "engineer" but I'm not a licensed PE. I also know that I shouldn't say I am an Engineer but I can say I'm and engineer...
 
Lizard Testes said:
The title engineer actually means something. If you're not one, don't say you are one. Pretty simple.
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He is an "engineer" but not a "Professional Engineer" because has a degree in engineering but is not licensed. Most engineers in this country are not PE's and the laws for licensing vary from state to state. Most PE's are civil/structural engineers or engineers performing consulting work, i.e. working for an engineering firm providing services to a customer. Most engineers working in industry, especially electrical, chemical, computer, software, etc. are not PE's and are not required to be, but can still call themselves an engineer.
 
If you guys would actually read the article, the dude is literally an engineer. He's just not licensed by the board of engineering from Oregon. He's licensed from his home country of Sweden, where he originated from. He is not mis-representing himself.

This is a power play from a government organization, plain and simple.
 
This guy IS an engineer by training (has the degree) but he isn't licensed in the state of Oregon. If you are a lawyer but aren't bar-certified in a particular state, you're still a lawyer. Same with the title of Doctor. Going to a different state doesn't suddenly make your qualifications disappear.
 
My employer several years ago decided to retitle the 1000's of maintainence workers from "equipment engineers" to "equipment technicians" because there was fear of fines and lawsuits if a technician referenced themself as an engineer outside the company.

BTW, where does Bill Nye fit in with all this??
 
dvsman said:
This guy IS an engineer by training (has the degree) but he isn't licensed in the state of Oregon. If you are a lawyer but aren't bar-certified in a particular state, you're still a lawyer. Same with the title of Doctor. Going to a different state doesn't suddenly make your qualifications disappear.
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Clearly you do not understand how revenue works....I believe there is a statute that we can fine YOU with for not knowing this. Also there will be an non-waivable administrative fee.
 
westrock2000 said:
My employer several years ago decided to retitle the 1000's of maintainence workers from "equipment engineers" to "equipment technicians" because there was fear of fines and lawsuits if a technician referenced themself as an engineer outside the company.

BTW, where does Bill Nye fit in with all this??
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Bill Nye is NOT a scientist, but for some reason has this show on TV that make a lot of people think he is.

Then again, a large number of "scientists" do not actually practice real science and only parrot what they were brainwashed with in college.
 
For some reason this distinction is more obvious to people for other professions like lawyer for example. If a person wrote to their state bar, made a statement and then said they were a lawyer when they only have a law degree, I think people would be less surprised.

It's not uncommon for states to have the distinction of calling yourself an engineer in general, you must be licenced. Typically there's exceptions for companies, so you can work for a company and can state your position at the company, so a ____ engineer at _____ , and that's usually fine, but that in legal space is distinct at not inferring a licenced professional engineer. Either way, there's money, pride, and the potential for safety issues involved so these boards don't play around.
 
cyclone3d said:
Bill Nye is NOT a scientist, but for some reason has this show on TV that make a lot of people think he is.

Then again, a large number of "scientists" do not actually practice real science and only parrot what they were brainwashed with in college.
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I never thought he was a scientist, I just thought he was Bill Nye The Science Guy.

BILL BILL BILL BILL!
 
Lord Binky said:
For some reason this distinction is more obvious to people for other professions like lawyer for example. If a person wrote to their state bar, made a statement and then said they were a lawyer when they only have a law degree, I think people would be less surprised.

It's not uncommon for states to have the distinction of calling yourself an engineer in general, you must be licenced. Typically there's exceptions for companies, so you can work for a company and can state your position at the company, so a ____ engineer at _____ , and that's usually fine, but that in legal space is distinct at not inferring a licenced professional engineer. Either way, there's money, pride, and the potential for safety issues involved so these boards don't play around.
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This is more like a licensed attorney in one state sending a letter into another state and getting fined for it.
 
trick_m0nkey said:
If you guys would actually read the article, the dude is literally an engineer. He's just not licensed by the board of engineering from Oregon. He's licensed from his home country of Sweden, where he originated from. He is not mis-representing himself.

This is a power play from a government organization, plain and simple.
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And the state of Oregon is going to know that how? And how is being an engineer in Sweden matter in the US? Should the state listen to all people who claim they are an engineer from another country? Should they listen to an "engineer" from Togo vs an "engineer" from France?
 
i figured it out.

the state knew it was fucking people and didn't want to be called out on it.

case closed.
 
jfreund said:
This is more like a licensed attorney in one state sending a letter into another state and getting fined for it.
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So was he an engineer from another country? Then it's normal again, like doctors from india not able to call themselves a doctor in the US.

And yeah it gets fuzzy between states on just stating I'm an engineer, which is usually a non issue since short of advertising it or actually practicing, engineering boards have better things to do. Realistically, I think he just ruffled someone's feathers.
 
I'd reply "I'm a lawyer, and this is denying me my first amendment rights."
 
And I agree it is mostly equivalent state to state. Practicality wise it is more a matter of filing paperwork and paying fees/dues to each state an engineer wants licensure. Still, some states like Washington require additional exams on state law.
 
Dear state of Oregon,

Suck my balls.

Sincerely,
Someone who's glad they don't live in Oregon
 
What I find interesting is that the government isn't attacking the guys findings but the capitalization of a letter. Personally I don't care about a persons background if what they are saying is correct. The fact that he is an engineer but not licsensed in Oregon is an afterthought so long as what he is saying is correct. Attack the argument not the man but something tells me they are unable to find holes in his findings.
 
cyclone3d said:
Bill Nye is NOT a scientist, but for some reason has this show on TV that make a lot of people think he is.

Then again, a large number of "scientists" do not actually practice real science and only parrot what they were brainwashed with in college.
Click to expand...

How do you figure Bill Nye isn't a scientist?

Scientist: : a person learned in science and especially natural science : a scientific investigator

From wiki:

"Nye began his career as a mechanical engineer for Boeing Corporation in Seattle, where he invented a hydraulic resonance suppressor tube used on 747 airplanes."

That seems science-y to me.

It is possible he could be a scientist, an educator, and an entertainer all at the same time.
 
Methos said:
How do you figure Bill Nye isn't a scientist?

Scientist: : a person learned in science and especially natural science : a scientific investigator

From wiki:

"Nye began his career as a mechanical engineer for Boeing Corporation in Seattle, where he invented a hydraulic resonance suppressor tube used on 747 airplanes."

That seems science-y to me.

It is possible he could be a scientist, an educator, and an entertainer all at the same time.
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People are just mad he's outspoken about global warming now.

And something to do with a pre-op tranny.
 
Methos said:
How do you figure Bill Nye isn't a scientist?

Scientist: : a person learned in science and especially natural science : a scientific investigator

From wiki:

"Nye began his career as a mechanical engineer for Boeing Corporation in Seattle, where he invented a hydraulic resonance suppressor tube used on 747 airplanes."

That seems science-y to me.

It is possible he could be a scientist, an educator, and an entertainer all at the same time.
Click to expand...

imagine the outrage if some "engineer" made statements about global cooling or warming or whatever trend is popular this week?

there'd be people screaming at them because they are an engineer.
 
Lizard Testes said:
It'd be much better if anyone at all can claim to be an engineer regardless of education or qualifications. Who doesn't want the foundation of their home "engineered" by a high school dropout who works at McDonald's and practices engineering in their spare time?

The title engineer actually means something. If you're not one, don't say you are one. Pretty simple.
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If you have faith in experts, you are a fool.

At the same time most places use the Professional Engineer title (signature & stamp) approach for critical items. And in reality the PEng is often a scapegoat for companies to squirm out of product liability. As long as a PEng. can be made the fall guy, you will be less safe. Not more safe.
 
seems like they just fined him cause they didn't like being called out. I guess he was technically in violation but is that really the purpose of that law? If he was taking clients and selling his services without a license I can understand but this isn't what happened here.
 
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