Make Computer Science a Graduation Requirement, Says College Board

except the colleges are guilty too of using like 10 year old hardware and shit lol
 
You can use programming to teach about variables- and about order of operations, in an interactive environment.

That's a huge step up for those that struggle with algebraic mathematics and provides a foundation for approaching the rest.
 
bugleyman said:
That shouldn't really matter for what they appear to have in mind.
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True..for just teaching stuff. And they are usually thinking mass scale lots of comps. They really don't want to spend the cash on the best shit....
 
I do not know you think living in a fucking dorm and all that experience is more educational lol
 
They need to bring back home economics and auto/wood shop.

I wouldn't disagree to basic computer and office program courses.
 
I think it would depend on where you draw the line between "computer knowledge" and "computer science". You need a 110 IQ to be a computer programmer, which still isolates most of the population.

DTN107 said:
They need to bring back home economics and auto/wood shop.

I wouldn't disagree to basic computer and office program courses.
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This.
 
Back when i was growing up they taught logo in elementary school. Now there's people in this thread complaining that learning programming is just too hard for highschool students? Have we really regressed over 25 years?
Almost every office job requires you to know how to use MS office. There really should be some basics taught in high school. If all these stupid kids can play on facebook all day long, they should be able to use excel, replace a hard drive and compile a hello world program in C++. Saying that it's too hard is ridiculous.
 
with AI coming up in a couple of years time, coding will become obsolete for most programmers. (the elite class will go about correcting AI-self made improvements, and adjusting new A-enchanced standards.)

Programming after all is all about usage of obscure syntax to tell the computer to do something rudimentary and basic

Great thing is that everyone can program then.
 
theBrownLlama said:
with AI coming up in a couple of years time, coding will become obsolete for most programmers. (the elite class will go about correcting AI-self made improvements)

Programming after all is all about usage of obscure syntax to tell the computer to do something rudimentary and basic
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lol. I think you're about 100 years off.
 
Coding is not about syntax- it's about logical problem solving within the context of computing.

I don't see any use in having everyone learn how to compile C++ in Visual Studio- but using Python to solve a problem? That gets them thinking, and Python is a widely used utility language. Javascript can be put to use too, and it is literally the fabric of the internet once you get beyond HTML and CSS, which themselves are just coded analogs of the kind of stuff you see in word processors.

Both allow for the expanding of the students' horizons in accessible and useful manners, and support other fields of study.
 
theBrownLlama said:
guess we can all say , lets see.

or at least maybe we can get a simple human words to code AI-programme soon.
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They already have high level programming languages. The problem with most of them is that sometimes it can be a limitation to be simple to use.
Javascript is pretty damn simple to use. There's no real memory allocation or garbage collection, all of that is handled automatically.
There's basic for android if java is too hard to get into. It takes care of all the backend android processes and allows you to write in visual basic, which is probably one of the most easiest to read languages available.
There's talend which is an etl tool that utilizes a visual drag and drop system for linking processes together and then it generates java code which can basically be run on any machine.

There's lots of fast development tools out there for programming. If ANSI C or java is too hard to drive into from scratch, these alternatives definitely make the learning curves so much easier.

If you think that AI will come to the rescue and you'll be able to tell a program to make a 3d game for you and draw some characters, that's way too far away to exist anytime soon.
 
Batboy88 said:
say that to like accountants or whoever other office airheads making like 80k a years and absolutely couldn't even fucking piece together something simple build wise lol

Just that fucking good I'm fucking God etc lol

Comp people knew fucking everything, there's literally been every topic or application that could be involved in it.
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I vote for grammar proficiency as well.
 
Before you can program, you need to know basic math and basic logic, like "'A implies B' implies 'not B implies not A'"
Most adults don't have that level of logic mastered, so if you teach them to code, the code will be buggy crap.

Besides that, kids learn and retain what they want, no matter what you "require."

I first learned programing before I went to high school, way back in 1971 on a programmable calculator so large you couldn't get on a plane as checked baggage. It was there and a teacher let me play with it. When I hit high school, they had a computer science club that used an ASR33 teletype connected by handset-coupled modem to the district's HP2000F, and I programmed that. Then I joined the BSA's Computer Explorers and learned Fortran on a CDC6600 at Fort Belvior, Virginia, the headquarters of the Army Corps of Engineers. All because I wanted to, not because I had to. Five decades later, damn, but I've done a lot of CS stuff. Even designed processors for Intel. :)

So perhaps we should stop requiring kids to do stuff they'll just forget after the final exam, and just give them real opportunities to learn instead.
 
bugleyman said:
Yeah, those knowledge-sharing bastards.
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Is it really sharing when the consistent answer from education industry for 4-5 decades now has been, "spend more money!"? Education expenses are among the worst in our economy. It outpaces inflation greatly along with healthcare and housing. Its what you get when the answer is cheap loans (that can never be forgiven/bankrupted away) and more cash per student in K-12.

I had typing and basic computer office type programs education in middle school and high school. 20+ years ago my university required intro computing for a BS degree. All the how-tos of office software, basic web page creation and image editing. Taught by a CS professor who knew less about hardware than I did from learning how to build custom PC's. But the non nerds learned what RTFM meant.
 
This guys talking about learning basic computing in High School. I say that's too late. I'm sure that my fellow nerds would do fine in a high school computer science course, but your average high school student? Not so much.

If you want to have computer science be a meaningful part of the K-12 education, you need to start in elementary school, and you need to start with the 'basics'. In previous threads you may have heard me harp about how Linux will not become mainstream, but for this purpose (education), we don't want Windows or Apple laptops or Android notepads, we want Raspberry Pi computers running Linux with a simple keyboard and mouse. Total cost is less than $60.00, and kids can easily carry a keyboard, mouse, and computer w/ memory card around in their book bags. And it's not a crisis if they lose or break them. Using a web browser kids can access school approved games and learning tools to teach them math, reading, writing, etc., but most importantly they can learn TYPING, the layout of a keyboard, and the dexterity to get around with a mouse. In the third or fourth grade they can start learning electronics using a daughtercard and a bread board.

And the little Raspberrys can be fun to play with. An HDMI monitor can be had for around $100.00, and in many cases these little computers can plug into your television, so they can be used at home.

Lets not burden families and school systems with the budget hassles of buying a laptops or notepads. And lets not teach children how to use a computer without being able to manipulate a command shell. With a Raspberry Pi, 'computer science' can start in the first grade, and having computers in the classroom can help with all the subjects, and can take the burden of learning off both the teachers and students - it's proven that children learn better when all their schooling doesn't come from a lecture.
 
seanreisk said:
This guys talking about learning basic computing in High School. I say that's too late. I'm sure that my fellow nerds would do fine in a high school computer science course, but your average high school student? Not so much.

If you want to have computer science be a meaningful part of the K-12 education, you need to start in elementary school, and you need to start with the 'basics'. In previous threads you may have heard me harp about how Linux will not become mainstream, but for this purpose (education), we don't want Windows or Apple laptops or Android notepads, we want Raspberry Pi computers running Linux with a simple keyboard and mouse. Total cost is less than $60.00, and kids can easily carry a keyboard, mouse, and computer w/ memory card around in their book bags. And it's not a crisis if they lose or break them. Using a web browser kids can access school approved games and learning tools to teach them math, reading, writing, etc., but most importantly they can learn TYPING, the layout of a keyboard, and the dexterity to get around with a mouse. In the third or fourth grade they can start learning electronics using a daughtercard and a bread board.

And the little Raspberrys can be fun to play with. An HDMI monitor can be had for around $100.00, and in many cases these little computers can plug into your television, so they can be used at home.

Lets not burden families and school systems with the budget hassles of buying a laptops or notepads. And lets not teach children how to use a computer without being able to manipulate a command shell. With a Raspberry Pi, 'computer science' can start in the first grade, and having computers in the classroom can help with all the subjects, and can take the burden of learning off both the teachers and students - it's proven that children learn better when all their schooling doesn't come from a lecture.
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I don't think anyone was seriously believing that we need every student to have a $500 workstation, but you're spot on with the raspberry pi thing(although I'm not entirely sure if elementary isn't a little too early to seriously start that). Also seeing schools and school districts announcing massive expenditures on things like an ipad for every student has always just made my eyes roll.

The games.. nope, gotta go. Edutainment games are basically a joke, always have been. They're either so horrible that people just sit there making fun of the things, or if they're any "good" it just goes right back to magic idiot box territory where any concepts learned just go in one ear and out the other with the focus being on playing the game. Ask anyone who grew up playing Oregon Trail in school on an Apple IIe. No one gave a crap about computing concepts or basics, it was insert floppy, power on, play game. I didn't see things improve for the better years later when I saw what my younger brother was doing in school in the 90s, and I doubt its any better today. Science, math, grammar, etc. can be taught without everything needing to be a game, computer science concepts can be taught without being a game.

I agree that lecturing doesn't work for every subject for every student, but practical lab work can also be done without turning things into games.
 
Merc1138 said:
Of course they wouldn't do well in any sort of CS class, but that's a problem of your local school system(not saying it's your wife's fault, although it's sad I need to clarify that otherwise some people would take it that way) for even letting those kids into HS without being able to handle basic multiplication. "Back in my day" that was a part of the basic requirement of getting to what... the 3rd or 4th grade? The idea that there are highschool students who can't handle basic single digit multiplication should be alarming to people, unless we're talking about people who lived in the woods till their teens and never attended school previously.
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You are right and no offense is taken at all. We had to learn the times table in the 4th grade (don't remember) - if you didn't, they flunked you and you would repeat the grade. Nowadays, they will pass the person along to get them out of the system. They are doing a total disservice to the kids.
The other big problem are some of the parents. If I cam home with a bad grade or got in trouble at school, my parents would have punished me. If you scold little Johnny, some of the parents are at school arguing how their little angel could not have possibly done what you accused them of. Or, you aren't teaching them right. II specifically remember practicing the times table with my mom, going over spelling words, and being made to sit down after school to do homework. Nowadays, teachers are actually discouraged from sending work home.
Again, I like the idea of making CS classes available but not everyone in the future is going to need these skills and I think some people won't do them no matter what. I am probably sounding elitist (not my intent), but we will need people to repair vehicles, furnaces, clean toilets (maybe robots can do this at some point), etc. Some of these jobs are skilled and require training. I respect the people working these jobs as I don't know how to do them (except for cleaning toilets - I can do that but don't like it :) ).
Not sure if this is still the case, but I thought Germany used to give everyone the same education until about the 8th grade. At that point, some kids were sorted out for college prep while other kids went to a trade school. From what I read about it, it seemed to make sense. I will be the first to admit I don't really know much about the success or even how accurate my memory of this system is.
I also have read many science fiction books in which infants where basically bred for certain roles (maybe Logan's run?) - I'm not comfortable with that world. I hope people will always be allowed to make certain choices and have the option to do well if they want.
 
CS != computer proficiency.
CS != programming.
CS == math, logic, algorithms, and theory.

I would think a class about personal finance, credit and debt management, and how to establish wealth would be far more important as a HS requirement before CS.

Not everyone goes to college, and CS is highly theoretical (I took 2 CS classes and the CS AP class in highschool) where it is completely useless unless you specifically go into CS.
CS AP in highschool is slightly simplified college undergrad algorithms and datastructures class -- ie. there is NO reason for everyone to take it unless you are interested in the field.

I could see maybe one or two more general highschool CS classes becoming a graduation requirement (similar to chemistry/biology), but that depends on what they cover (at my HS we covered discrete maths, recursive functions, and control structures in the non-AP CS classes -- ie. somewhat theoretical again where about 50% of the students opted out mid way thru the year because all they wanted to learn was "1337 haxors").

Overall this sounds like more CollegeBoard bullshit.
 
heatlesssun said:
True, but programming is a very important part of computer science as programming is a requisite in all undergraduate CS programs. All of that math, logic and theory manifests itself in code.
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I agree, but predominantly people are equating programming with webdev/library-wrangling/CRUD type work, which is very different from the type of programming required in pure CS (not that one is inherently inferior to the other, but they require different skills).
IMO there is a huge difference between Software Engineering and CS degrees, similar to the differences between Physics and Mechanical Engineering degrees (for reference, I have an undergrad in EE focused mostly on CS/CSE and am currently working on a MS in CS).
 
TFA refers to AP Java programming classes as examples of what this group wants. While we are at it, let's require Engine Overhaul so folks can better drive their cars and Home Construction so folks can get the most out of their houses.

Knowing how to build something doesn't always make you better at using it. Some of the most computer ignorant people are the IT development staff. Can they use the IDEs, write code, test, and implement? Well usually. But ask them to swap out a video card, get a nice looking printout, or use some software package and they are often more lost then the accounting staff.
 
schoolslave said:
I agree, but predominantly people are equating programming with webdev/library-wrangling/CRUD type work, which is very different from the type of programming required in pure CS (not that one is inherently inferior to the other, but they require different skills).
IMO there is a huge difference between Software Engineering and CS degrees, similar to the differences between Physics and Mechanical Engineering degrees (for reference, I have an undergrad in EE focused mostly on CS/CSE and am currently working on a MS in CS).
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Computer technology is so broad and diverse that few can be masters of it all. I see this discussion very personally because back in the dark ages of the 70s I started to teach myself about programming because I knew that computers would changed the world, something that I got from watching Star Trek. It's served me well.
 
Everyone I know that has studied 'Computer Science' through University wishes they hadn't. It's a pretty useless subject.
 
daglesj said:
Everyone I know that has studied 'Computer Science' through University wishes they hadn't. It's a pretty useless subject.
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Could you please elaborate on this? Were the programs not useful in obtaining good employment? Were students being pressured into programs that thought would be economically profitable? I was close to getting my computer engineering degree in the early 90s buy started seeing a LOT of my friends dropping out and getting paid. I was broke as fuck at that point and did the same thing and well, good thing for me. But I love this shit.
 
heatlesssun said:
You mention banking. From a business perspective, banking is one of the most automated old world industries there is these days. If one has good computers skills it's easy to get a job in banking these days.
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i think you misunderstood my comment it was not meant as a suggestion to something better than getting computer education.
it was a list of things i have taken for granted was part of my pre high school education
aka real world applicational education.

it was a comment that all these suggestions of what should improve in American educational system showd to me a really lacking state of US education systems.


But I am also from a country where field/pat specifications start with highs school stages (roughly)
 
Gigus Fire said:
Back when i was growing up they taught logo in elementary school. Now there's people in this thread complaining that learning programming is just too hard for highschool students? Have we really regressed over 25 years?
Almost every office job requires you to know how to use MS office. There really should be some basics taught in high school. If all these stupid kids can play on facebook all day long, they should be able to use excel, replace a hard drive and compile a hello world program in C++. Saying that it's too hard is ridiculous.
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We really have. Over the past 15 years, our district has cut Shop, Woodworking, Economics, Programming, Robotics, "Electrical Concepts" (basic physics in regards to electricity), Digital Design, Video Production, and probably even more that I have forgotten over the years, all to save money. We have a single teacher that teaches MS Office type programs, and the district has been trying to get rid of that position for a while. The most worrying thing I keep hearing from the principal and superintendent level, is that "we don't need to teach kids about computers, because they all just "know" everything already". The problem is, simple tech like smartphones and tablets make kids look like they know what they are doing, when in reality they have no clue and the nice GUI did it all for them.
 
wizdum said:
We really have. Over the past 15 years, our district has cut Shop, Woodworking, Economics, Programming, Robotics, "Electrical Concepts" (basic physics in regards to electricity), Digital Design, Video Production, and probably even more that I have forgotten over the years, all to save money. We have a single teacher that teaches MS Office type programs, and the district has been trying to get rid of that position for a while. The most worrying thing I keep hearing from the principal and superintendent level, is that "we don't need to teach kids about computers, because they all just "know" everything already". The problem is, simple tech like smartphones and tablets make kids look like they know what they are doing, when in reality they have no clue and the nice GUI did it all for them.
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I know. Gotta make some cuts so the administration can enjoy their pay increases. That superintendent is probably raking in the dough.
 
Gigus Fire said:
I know. Gotta make some cuts so the administration can enjoy their pay increases. That superintendent is probably raking in the dough.
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We actually just got a new superintendent (and he was the one that made the comment about not needing to teach kids about computers), so I can't really blame him for this. The root cause is a town that doesn't really want to have a school. The school is the biggest item in the town's budget, and many of the politicians no longer have kids or grand kids in the system. With insurance prices going up every year, and teachers (sometimes rightfully) requesting pay increases through their union, the town sees the school as a massive money pit. So we do the bare minimum required by law (and even less, when we can get away with it).
 
Let me put this another way: the only computer skills needed in the future will be robot evasion tactics.
 
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DejaWiz said:
Computer Science, no.
Basic computer use, yes.
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Basic computer use is part of computer science.
Do i think high schoolers need a 4 year BS degree in computer science? Nope. I don't think that was ever implied.
Basic programming isn't too hard. By the time they teach calculus in 12th grade, they should have had a course on logic, therefore programming is just an extension of logic.
 
Gigus Fire said:
Basic computer use is part of computer science.
Do i think high schoolers need a 4 year BS degree in computer science? Nope. I don't think that was ever implied.
Basic programming isn't too hard. By the time they teach calculus in 12th grade, they should have had a course on logic, therefore programming is just an extension of logic.
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Exactly. Even when schools do try to teach kids how to use computers, it's "memorize these steps exactly in this version of this program to do this", which doesn't help them at all.
I did recently have one of our "older" staff surprise me though. He was looking for Youtube videos that contained the words "A" and "B", and he knew that he could use Boolean operators in the search field to find exactly what he needed. Because back when he went to school, they actually taught him what those were, despite Google not existing. Now, compare that to our students, who will still type an entire sentence into Google to try to find what they are looking for.
 
KarsusTG said:
I think it would depend on where you draw the line between "computer knowledge" and "computer science". You need a 110 IQ to be a computer programmer, which still isolates most of the population.



This.
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My IQ was tested at 117 when I was in 10th grade and I'm terrible at programming. To make matters worse, the lone java class that I had was taught by a jerk teacher. I hate people who think that SMEs automatically make the best teachers. I have a CCNA and I prefer the networking part of IT, yet people still approach me about web/software development. Steve Ballmer () must've really burned into people. My university did eliminate its computer literacy requirement, which from working in IT, I feel is stupid.
 
heatlesssun said:
Could you please elaborate on this? Were the programs not useful in obtaining good employment? Were students being pressured into programs that thought would be economically profitable? I was close to getting my computer engineering degree in the early 90s buy started seeing a LOT of my friends dropping out and getting paid. I was broke as fuck at that point and did the same thing and well, good thing for me. But I love this shit.
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Basically the main complaint was that it never applied to anything 'real world' or 'useful'. There are far more applicable and desired IT topics or disciplines that real world employers want.
 
viper1152012 said:
If I can get people to stop holding down the power button until their computer turns off that would be nice.
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I am a fill time SW developer and Linux nerd and I am still doing that sometimes = switching off the PC by long press power button. Especially when my Wind 10 machine is taking too long to shutdown normally. I do not care what it is doing there, just shut already down :)
 
almalino said:
I am a fill time SW developer and Linux nerd and I am still doing that sometimes = switching off the PC by long press power button. Especially when my Wind 10 machine is taking too long to shutdown normally. I do not care what it is doing there, just shut already down :)
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Agree 100%. There are numerous reasons to do a hard shutdown, like when the shutdown process is stuck and won't proceed even after 15-30 mins.
I can only assume the OP was talking about people who do that all the time without trying to shutdown, because otherwise it's kind of asinine.
 
wyqtor said:
A terrible idea. Not everyone can easily understand computer science concepts, nor are they useful for people who don't plan to become programmers, engineers, mathematicians, physicists. Getting the basics of IT nailed down first should be the absolute priority (installing Windows, replacing a hard drive, installing a video card, formatting a document in Word, etc.)
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Yeah to be honest I don't know if creating a huge glut of questionably-competent computer scientists* driving down wages for everyone is such a good future strategy.

Basic computer literacy is a must though.
 
almalino said:
I am a fill time SW developer and Linux nerd and I am still doing that sometimes = switching off the PC by long press power button. Especially when my Wind 10 machine is taking too long to shutdown normally. I do not care what it is doing there, just shut already down :)
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The difference is in knowing the difference.

Spreadsheets with formulas need to be taught before College. Didn't really see the value in high school, but it is so useful today to do preliminary data analysis and SQL/C++ code generation. ;), yes code generation.

And it doesn't feel very special anymore helping others to learn the tools, because it's not part of the role/pay/responsibility.
 
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