MacBooks and Sandy Bridge discussion

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rflcptr

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Sandy Bridge, I think, is going to be the start of a lot of good changes and improvements in mobile computing, especially given the battery discharge figures measured at Anandtech. That was with an early laptop with a quad core running Windows. First off, I'm not convinced that Windows itself is the culprit when comparatively lower battery life versus OS X is found in identical Apple hardware. I think most of the delta in consumption is due more to drivers and the GPUs under Windows not being switched to save energy. So I'm no fanboy. :p

That said, Apple's focus on consistently delivering more and more battery life over time is probably going to leave them with a lot more headroom than before to incorporate features that normally are more energy hungry, all while still keeping the discharge figures above and beyond prior systems.

What would you change, remove, or include in the upcoming lineup?

I'd like seeing:
- IPS LED-backlit displays at higher resolutions
- improved Windows support
- an integrated 3G or 4G modem
- optional quad core CPUs
 
I think the general consensus would be to have a more powerful system.

Currently I use a 13" MBP daily and while for almost all of my computing needs it is plenty fast, I wonder what it would be like with a significantly faster CPU/GPU. Currently I think that the i5 15" MBP best fills this need, but at a price I (currently) can't afford and also in a system that is larger than I want.

I would say the other thing I would like to see is a multi-HD setup. Now that Apple and Toshiba have developed essentially HD's on a stick (used in the current MBA), it wouldn't be hard to have both a 128GB-256GB 'hd-stick' as well as a less expensive standard drive ranging from 500GB-1TB. I'm already considering removing my super-drive and replacing it with an HD caddy and HD, while upgrading my OS drive to a SSD. However the optimal solution would be to have all three.
 
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Easy: Dump optical drives and go with 100% SSD storage across the line. Use the loss of mechanical parts to make them all as thin and light as possible.

The Macbook Air is the next logical step in Macbook Pro design, the difference is that it will also come in a 15" size with a discreet GPU. The advantages are faster boot-up time, faster wake from sleep, faster application start-up time (even a "slow" baseline 13" Macbook Air feels faster than most PC notebooks on the desktop), no moving parts aside from the fans, and a thinner and lighter chassis.

Integrated optical drives are useless IMHO, especially on laptops. I never use the Blu Ray drive on my PC or my MBP, and the only time I use it on my iMac is if I'm ripping CDs. Given the fact that applications are primarily downloaded, media is all digital (who needs CDs and DVDs?), and OS X restore disc for the MBA is now on a USB stick, I don't see any compelling argument to have one built into future Macbooks.
 
And as far as what Sandy Bridge means in the immediate future, it means that 13" and 11" Macbooks can finally ditch the Core 2 Duo/NVIDIA chipset combo that they were locked into because Intel's prior IGPs were horrible. According to Anandtech benchmarks, the Sandy Bridge IGP is a little faster than the 320M. This is great news, as it means that Apple can finally move forward from the C2D/320M in their smaller notebooks.
 
I'll upgrade my C2D 2.26GHz based Mac Mini when SB is available.
 
MrGuvernment said:
So, you should see Sandy bridge in apple laptops... in what, about a year?
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We'll see. Macbook Pros had mobile Penryns weeks before they showed up in Dell and HP's notebooks. They got Nehalem Xeons in Mac Pros weeks before they showed up in Dell/HP's workstations. The custom CPU in the first gen Macbook Air didn't show up anywhere else for six months. The i7 and i5 showed up in iMacs right when they showed up everywhere else.

Notebooks are the hardest thing to nail down. There was a delay getting the i7 and i5 in the Macbook Pros last year. The problem I see with Sandy Bridge is that the Macbook Air is barely three months old, so that'll probably be the cause of any waits in the 13" MBP and MBA. I'm guessing Spring, we'll see.
 
They need to update everything pretty quickly.

I for one am waiting until march on a new system, specifically for sandy bridge. If apple doesn't have it I may simply go to a windows 7 rig.
 
rflcptr said:
- IPS LED-backlit displays at higher resolutions
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I'm most inclined to say that I would want this, but at the same time, I'm not certain of the need for an IPS display in a MacBook I'd be interested in (13" MBP).

I think, for me, whatever yields the lightest and most compact notebook possible. If it means keeping the existing TN displays and using smaller batteries to achieve the same battery life as the current MBPs, that would probably be my preference.
 
phide - The main thing I'd be concerned about with IPS is cost. An IPS screen on an HP business laptop is a $550 upgrade. Maybe Apple would be able to make it work in high enough volume. After all, iPhones and iPads all use IPS displays right now.

I agree with you on power draw though, especially given that IPS pulls more than a TN display. Apple's TN+ panels look much better than competing notebooks, but man, IPS would be nice. :)
 
No more Superdrives with Mac App stores.

OSX Lion releases in the summer, so that will extend some life/sales to Macs. September refresh. That's a long enough window for Sandy Bridge update. You know how slow Steve Jobs and Co. are.
 
pxc said:
Not worth the space or money when I already have a large 1920x1200 LCD. :p
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Go dual displays! :)

I could never stomach the Minis given how much more you get for your money (CPU/GPU/RAM/storage) with an iMac. At worst one can go dual monitor with an iMac and another LCD. The fact that the 27" can be used as a monitor (what I do now with my gaming PC) puts that one way over the top for me
 
intogamer said:
No more Superdrives with Mac App stores.

OSX Lion releases in the summer, so that will extend some life/sales to Macs. September refresh. That's a long enough window for Sandy Bridge update. You know how slow Steve Jobs and Co. are.
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Really? Apple is usually one of the fastest to adopt new processors/memory/wireless/harddrive standards. Sandy Bridge was released mid-Apple cycle, so there is no Sandy Bridge machines yet, but I fully expect the next update to add Sandy Bridge to many of the Apple lineup. The macbook/macbook pro/mac mini are all at approximately their update cycle, so I wouldn't be surprised to see an update to some, or all, of them before the end of April.

To quote Serpico, who's post you missed. . .

Serpico said:
We'll see. Macbook Pros had mobile Penryns weeks before they showed up in Dell and HP's notebooks. They got Nehalem Xeons in Mac Pros weeks before they showed up in Dell/HP's workstations. The custom CPU in the first gen Macbook Air didn't show up anywhere else for six months. The i7 and i5 showed up in iMacs right when they showed up everywhere else.
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And to add to that, Apple was using DDR2 and DDR3 in all of their machines before any other major manufacturer, they were the first to start putting wireless N in all of their computers, etc.
 
I am awaiting the new MBPs before I get my new lappy. One bigger interest that I have is what they will do with the GFX chips in them. I am hopping for a decent upgrade.

Surely Apple will not try to push their already over priced hardware much longer, its gettinn more and more ridiculous as other people start to offer Sandy Bridge.
 
I wish they'd refresh the iMac with Sandy Bridge and a SSD boot/apps drive like the MacBook Air and a second, mechanical hard drive for storage. I'm sure they'll still use 3.5" drives, but moving to 2.5" 7200 RPM laptop drives (now that 1 TB versions are available) would allow them make the iMac even thinner and run cooler.
 
Many recent rumors have stated Apple will go with the integrated GPUs in Sandy Bridge.

XvMMvX said:
I am awaiting the new MBPs before I get my new lappy. One bigger interest that I have is what they will do with the GFX chips in them. I am hopping for a decent upgrade.

Surely Apple will not try to push their already over priced hardware much longer, its gettinn more and more ridiculous as other people start to offer Sandy Bridge.
Click to expand...
 
rflcptr said:
I'd like seeing:
- IPS LED-backlit displays at higher resolutions
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This would require someone to actually design an IPS panel for notebooks. Unlikely, though I’d love for that to happen. If the freaking iPad can get a 10’’ IPS panel, it’s time for notebooks to finally drop TN. Apple should have enough manufacturing clout these days to get some of these factories cranking out IPS and S-IPS displays.

- improved Windows support
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Also unlikely. Boot Camp is there to wean people off Windows, not to keep them on it while using Apple hardware.

- an integrated 3G or 4G modem
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Maybe one day. For now, iOS’ Personal Hotspot feature is as close as you’ll get. VeriPhone to the rescue.

- optional quad core CPUs
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Intel needs to make them first, and their performance needs to justify the battery life tradeoff.

My personal wishlist, which admittedly has little to do with new CPUs:
  • Better GPU switching; create some way for apps to opt out of the automatic process and select either integrated or discrete. There’s no reason for a Twitter app to use a discrete GPU.
  • Full and complete OpenGL and OpenCL implementation in both OS X and in hardware components. Would be nice if Apple could convince Intel to finally get OpenCL support going.
  • New, non-plastic material for keyboard keys.
  • Expanded multitouch gestures, perhaps involving the drawing of shapes to execute certain commands.
 
Terpfen said:
Also unlikely. Boot Camp is there to wean people off Windows, not to keep them on it while using Apple hardware.
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Not really. Boot camp is there because there is hardware compatibility. If apple were to just up and drop support I really wouldn't notice. The only thing I can't get in windows without apple's help is the multitouch drivers for my track pad, being basically just a PC with a fancy case I can find all the drivers for my AlMB on my own.

Intel needs to make them first, and their performance needs to justify the battery life tradeoff.
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They already do, and have been since early 2009, they just were not widely adopted because of their high TDP.

http://www.intel.com/products/processor/core2xe/mobile/

The current i7s are a much better generation of mobile quad core (and are hyperthreaded, so you get 4 cores and 8 threads in your laptop) but are pricey and thus again, not widely adopted.

Personally I want to see better graphics, eSATA (I would prefer that to USB3 as USB3 still has a ways to go yet, would also prefer that over the SD card reader), Sandy bridge, return to removable battery (your extra half an hour or so of extra battery is no match to my extra 2.5-5 hours of extra battery life I get when I carry 1 or two spares with me, spares that are cheaper to replace then one of those external batteries)

As for SSD vs platter, I couldn't care less, how about we compromise on Seagate Momentous XTs? That way we can have the benefit of SSD with the space and cost of platter? Also I personally use the optical drive in my macbook all the time, so I would like to keep that around.
 
C7J0yc3 said:
Not really. Boot camp is there because there is hardware compatibility. If apple were to just up and drop support I really wouldn't notice. The only thing I can't get in windows without apple's help is the multitouch drivers for my track pad, being basically just a PC with a fancy case I can find all the drivers for my AlMB on my own.
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Boot Camp is there to facilitate switchers and make OS X and the Mac platform more accessible. Boot Camp is a bridge, not a crutch. It’s the simplest, quickest solution Apple can offer to Windows owners who might be interested in buying a Mac.

If Apple wanted the ability to use Windows to be a defining, sales-driving feature of using a Mac, they would buy VMWare or Parallels and bake Windows virtualization support into OS X.

They already do, and have been since early 2009, they just were not widely adopted because of their high TDP.
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Carefully re-read the second half of the sentence you’re quoting.
 
Many recent rumors have stated Apple will go with the integrated GPUs in Sandy Bridge.
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If that is true then my dream of finally owning a MBP may have just been flushed down the shitter. I can't see how that would be the case with the new addition of steam for mac. I do not do much PC gaming but I play SC2, HoN, and am wating paitiently for Diablo 3.

I hope they do not go this route.
 
I don't see Apple downgrading for the SB refresh. It would make absolutely no sense.
 
The rumor in question is only about the 13’’ MBP. Honestly, I can’t see it, because Intel GPUs don’t support OpenCL. Ivy Bridge is a more likely candidate, IMO.
 
If we're making a wishlist, I would love to see

A 15" MBP that's a quasi-Air with the high res screen, no DVD drive, a Sandy Bridge proc and a seperate dedicated GFX card, ~120-180gb SSD , (or if they got the Momentus XT actually working right, but it seems to be glitchy still) in a thinner and lighter package.

Oh, and 9+ hours battery life without the removable battery. Because I don't want to have to carry around another spare battery, nor do I want the extra weight/size of a removable battery. Honestly, if you're killing the battery on a MBP, and aren't running VM's, you're "doing it wrong". I can get most of the flight to New Zealand on my current BlackBook, which is helpful as I don't sleep on planes. I routinely take 10+ hour flights, or spend an entire day away from a wall outlet. If I, who exist at the extreme end of the battery world, don't feel the need for a separate battery, then I think the people that would actually use it, are a significant minority.

I think my wish list might be a touch more probable
 
Terpfen said:
The rumor in question is only about the 13’’ MBP. Honestly, I can’t see it, because Intel GPUs don’t support OpenCL. Ivy Bridge is a more likely candidate, IMO.
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While Ivy Bridge will have OpenCL built in from the start, Sandy Bridge has OpenCL as a bolt on, and as long as it works 1/2 way decently (which I've heard rumor that it does), why doesn't that count?

Tests/Bench's put Sandy Bridge at ~ and Nvidia 320M, which is good enough easily for the MacBook/MBA/13' MBP, which are the only models where the problem has existed. There's enough logic board room in the 15's and 17's to fit a separate GPU.
 
XvMMvX said:
If that is true then my dream of finally owning a MBP may have just been flushed down the shitter. I can't see how that would be the case with the new addition of steam for mac. I do not do much PC gaming but I play SC2, HoN, and am wating paitiently for Diablo 3.

I hope they do not go this route.
Click to expand...

SC2 and HoN play fine on a 320M, there are even videos on Youtube of people playing them on 11" Macbook Airs. Given that the Sandy Bridge IGP is a little faster than the 320M (benchmarks on Anandtech), they should run fine.

And if you go with a 15" MBP, you have a dedicated GPU so it isn't even an issue.
 
Zumino Zufeilon said:
While Ivy Bridge will have OpenCL built in from the start, Sandy Bridge has OpenCL as a bolt on, and as long as it works 1/2 way decently (which I've heard rumor that it does), why doesn't that count?
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Where did you read that Sandy Bridge supports OpenCL?
 
It doesn't yet. But Intel is rumored to be working on adding support for OpenCL at a later date.
 
Zumino Zufeilon said:
While Ivy Bridge will have OpenCL built in from the start, Sandy Bridge has OpenCL as a bolt on, and as long as it works 1/2 way decently (which I've heard rumor that it does), why doesn't that count?
Click to expand...
As I understand it, OpenCL applications are processed on the CPU. You can run an OpenCL application, but without the level of parallelism of a GPU's SPU cluster, the performance is generally going to be terrible.
 
Terpfen said:
Where did you read that Sandy Bridge supports OpenCL?
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Intel has initial OpenCL support for CPU only, sort of like what AMD did before a GPU version was finished.

Crummy solution, but better than nothing. The CPU implementation runs on all Intel processors, so it's not tied to AVX although it probably uses AVX if available. A 4GHz i7 is about 6.5x slower than a single GTX 480 in an OpenCL ray tracing benchmark called ratGPU, but curiously the i7 4GHz is almost 10% faster than a Mobility Radeon HD 5650 (400SP). SB should do better. That may or may not be typical results, but there's a data point.
 
I want a few tiny LightPeak ports while EVERY other port is done away with. Then you can just choose an adapter. I want the disc drive gone. And I want Intel WiDi. I want SSD standard. It would be the best laptop evar. Super slim, long life, wireless everything, instant booting, instant apps, instant display switching. And they need better support for bootable USB (or lightpeak?) media.
 
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