M1 successor should be coming this summer

Krazy925

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damstr

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I've been really impressed with my M1 Air. The best thing is the instant on iPad like experience and the amazing battery life.
 
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Just imagine if Apple licensed this to other OEMs/MS. That way we could have this thing on a non-Mac device. ARM might actually take some ground in the consumer PC market
 

Lakados

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Just imagine if Apple licensed this to other OEMs/MS. That way we could have this thing on a non-Mac device. ARM might actually take some ground in the consumer PC market
Qualcomm likely already has their M1 competition in the works, they’d be insane not too. NVidia probably has their consumer version ready to go they are just waiting for a product stack to use it and fab space to build it.
 

paradoxical

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Qualcomm likely already has their M1 competition in the works, they’d be insane not too. NVidia probably has their consumer version ready to go they are just waiting for a product stack to use it and fab space to build it.

It's going to be very difficult for a third party to match the performance and user experience of Apple since they don't have control of the OS like Apple does. For example, in MacOS QoS is implemented differently on M1 processors than Intel ones, leading to a faster feeling operating system for the end user. Another example - part of why Apple's x86 emulation works so well is because they knew exactly how they were going to do it in software, and actually built the architecture of the silicon to accelerate that type of operation.
 

Lakados

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It's going to be very difficult for a third party to match the performance and user experience of Apple since they don't have control of the OS like Apple does. For example, in MacOS QoS is implemented differently on M1 processors than Intel ones, leading to a faster feeling operating system for the end user. Another example - part of why Apple's x86 emulation works so well is because they knew exactly how they were going to do it in software, and actually built the architecture of the silicon to accelerate that type of operation.
Perhaps, but AI can see Google implementing a version of Android or Chrome tailored to a competitive architecture similar to the M1. NVidia also has their own Ubuntu version that they have optimized for their ARM chips and given their recent announcement to working with some generic ARM providers, I don’t remember who they could have something in the works there as well.
 

paradoxical

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Perhaps, but AI can see Google implementing a version of Android or Chrome tailored to a competitive architecture similar to the M1. NVidia also has their own Ubuntu version that they have optimized for their ARM chips and given their recent announcement to working with some generic ARM providers, I don’t remember who they could have something in the works there as well.

I could definitely see both of those scenarios you said happening - especially with Google now that they are focusing more on their own SoCs - but I doubt any of them will even begin to approach widespread adoption on the level of MacOS or Windows. As usual, for most users it will be Mac vs. PC - and Apple's optimization lead with the M1 is just going to continue to widen.
 

Lakados

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I could definitely see both of those scenarios you said happening - especially with Google now that they are focusing more on their own SoCs - but I doubt any of them will even begin to approach widespread adoption on the level of MacOS or Windows. As usual, for most users it will be Mac vs. PC - and Apple's optimization lead with the M1 is just going to continue to widen.
That depends, there are far more Android tablets than iOS ones out there so it they hit it hard they could do something decent there. But I expect by the time they get something out it will be compatible to the M1, but by then Apple will be balls deep into the M1X with M2 right around the corner. So they will be a full 2 generations behind.
 

longblock454

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Unless Apple's market share starts to really increase how much motivation does everyone have? I realize it takes years to play catch-up here but does Google for example expect an Apple surge?
 

DukenukemX

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Just imagine if Apple licensed this to other OEMs/MS. That way we could have this thing on a non-Mac device. ARM might actually take some ground in the consumer PC market
HA! No, I don't think so. ARM's problems aren't going to be solved by performance alone, though AMD's new Ryzen mobile chips will probably give Apple's M2 a run for it's overpriced money. ARM lacks a lot of things that we take for granted on x86. Especially on Apple hardware. Apple Silicon isn't even ready for developers.

It's going to be very difficult for a third party to match the performance and user experience of Apple since they don't have control of the OS like Apple does.
Linux
For example, in MacOS QoS is implemented differently on M1 processors than Intel ones, leading to a faster feeling operating system for the end user. Another example - part of why Apple's x86 emulation works so well is because they knew exactly how they were going to do it in software, and actually built the architecture of the silicon to accelerate that type of operation.
I'm not exactly sure what Apple is doing that's faster than instant but I'm sure it isn't anything to write home about. The x86 thing is not really a problem if you run hardware that's already x86. Other ARM devices on Windows might need Microsoft to step up and give a damn, but Microsoft will eventually step up. But like Microsoft's Surface Devices, there maybe no interest in people going ARM for a Windows laptop.

Right now ARM needs standards. ARM needs a desktop motherboard with a socket to put in a CPU. ARM needs a UEFI loader. ARM needs a lot more software than it has now, and bejeweled clones don't count. ARM's future is not Apple.
 

romills

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HA! No, I don't think so. ARM's problems aren't going to be solved by performance alone, though AMD's new Ryzen mobile chips will probably give Apple's M2 a run for it's overpriced money. ARM lacks a lot of things that we take for granted on x86. Especially on Apple hardware. Apple Silicon isn't even ready for developers.


Linux

I'm not exactly sure what Apple is doing that's faster than instant but I'm sure it isn't anything to write home about. The x86 thing is not really a problem if you run hardware that's already x86. Other ARM devices on Windows might need Microsoft to step up and give a damn, but Microsoft will eventually step up. But like Microsoft's Surface Devices, there maybe no interest in people going ARM for a Windows laptop.

Right now ARM needs standards. ARM needs a desktop motherboard with a socket to put in a CPU. ARM needs a UEFI loader. ARM needs a lot more software than it has now, and bejeweled clones don't count. ARM's future is not Apple.
DukenukemX,
Have you used the M1? I've used it, it's not just a benchmark thing, it is also a very zippy experience. I use a M1 MBP as my portable device, and my daughter has a M1 MBA. Both are incredibly fast, with no heat. Overall just a pleasant, snappy experience. It's not perfect, I had some crashes when plugging in old thunderbolt displays, this has steadily improved with Big Sur updates and rarely occurs now. M1 has some limitations for sure, but I must say it's incredible speedy(partially from SOC advantages as much as ARM).

I'm a long time embedded programmer familiar with both x86 and ARM architecture. I always thought Intel was brilliant making that creaky architecture perform so well, it really looks like ARM has just caught up. Apple has injected some of their knowledge to make their SOC so powerful, don't hate because it's Apple, admire the progress. I do think Nvidia and Qualcomm will close the gap, but the high end fabs are tied up with apple contracts. (invest in TSMC)

I don't fully understand you comment on Apple silicon isn't ready for developers? Can you explain, the chart show that it runs most, just not natively... Rosetta is actually really good, benchmarks have shown it's a very workable solution. I live in the mostly in embedded developer world, so most of these tools isn't useful as for me, but it has not hampered me for my personal projects.

thanks.. (not trying to be critical, just trying to understand your points, and provide a counter on my experience)
 

paradoxical

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DukenukemX,
Have you used the M1? I've used it, it's not just a benchmark thing, it is also a very zippy experience. I use a M1 MBP as my portable device, and my daughter has a M1 MBA. Both are incredibly fast, with no heat. Overall just a pleasant, snappy experience. It's not perfect, I had some crashes when plugging in old thunderbolt displays, this has steadily improved with Big Sur updates and rarely occurs now. M1 has some limitations for sure, but I must say it's incredible speedy(partially from SOC advantages as much as ARM).

I'm a long time embedded programmer familiar with both x86 and ARM architecture. I always thought Intel was brilliant making that creaky architecture perform so well, it really looks like ARM has just caught up. Apple has injected some of their knowledge to make their SOC so powerful, don't hate because it's Apple, admire the progress. I do think Nvidia and Qualcomm will close the gap, but the high end fabs are tied up with apple contracts. (invest in TSMC)

I don't fully understand you comment on Apple silicon isn't ready for developers? Can you explain, the chart show that it runs most, just not natively... Rosetta is actually really good, benchmarks have shown it's a very workable solution. I live in the mostly in embedded developer world, so most of these tools isn't useful as for me, but it has not hampered me for my personal projects.

thanks.. (not trying to be critical, just trying to understand your points, and provide a counter on my experience)
He hasn't used it, he is just a famous Apple hater.

If he did, he'd know that x86 games run on it just fine - and often faster than on native X86 Intel based MBPs. Games like CS:Go, Civilization 6, Elite Dangerous, etc. The M2 is just going to annihilate anything Intel has in a mobile formfactor, and most desktop formfactors as well.

If we really want to be funny, we can settle it with a filmed Premiere Pro 4k Export. My M1 MBP will beat his desktop, and it won't even be that close. Don't call me an X86 hater either; I have a 3990x for tasks that my MBP can't handle. But I call a spade a spade, and ARM is here to stay and Apple is the absolute leader.

But sure, standards or something.
 

Spun Ducky

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He hasn't used it, he is just a famous Apple hater.

If he did, he'd know that x86 games run on it just fine - and often faster than on native X86 Intel based MBPs. Games like CS:Go, Civilization 6, Elite Dangerous, etc. The M2 is just going to annihilate anything Intel has in a mobile formfactor, and most desktop formfactors as well.

If we really want to be funny, we can settle it with a filmed Premiere Pro 4k Export. My M1 MBP will beat his desktop, and it won't even be that close. Don't call me an X86 hater either; I have a 3990x for tasks that my MBP can't handle. But I call a spade a spade, and ARM is here to stay and Apple is the absolute leader.

But sure, standards or something.
I am a windows user first for casual use and linux heavy for developer work. I have always hated apple products but I picked up a m1 mac mini. Even with my bias towards hating apple they did quite a good job with it.

x86 games on the other hand are a train wreck for it because rosetta 2 doesn't support 32 bit programs. You can hackishly run them using parallels + windows for arm insider preview with x86 emulation but its quite buggy and slow still. x64 apps under rosetta 2 perform well and need minimal tweaks to run usually while native arm apps are stupid fast.

My view of it is if you just browse the net and use things like google docs its hard to beat right now for price to performance/power usage. However if a key thing you do is anything x86 32 bit you should avoid like the plague or if massive multi monitor setups are your thing since output is quite limited unless you use display link adapters.

I am actually quite excited for the 40 core m1 chip whenever that drops as it will be awesome for certain workflows I have but I will still have to retain a true x86 machine for years to come for a few specific cases.
 

paradoxical

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I am a windows user first for casual use and linux heavy for developer work. I have always hated apple products but I picked up a m1 mac mini. Even with my bias towards hating apple they did quite a good job with it.

x86 games on the other hand are a train wreck for it because rosetta 2 doesn't support 32 bit programs. You can hackishly run them using parallels + windows for arm insider preview with x86 emulation but its quite buggy and slow still. x64 apps under rosetta 2 perform well and need minimal tweaks to run usually while native arm apps are stupid fast.

My view of it is if you just browse the net and use things like google docs its hard to beat right now for price to performance/power usage. However if a key thing you do is anything x86 32 bit you should avoid like the plague or if massive multi monitor setups are your thing since output is quite limited unless you use display link adapters.

I am actually quite excited for the 40 core m1 chip whenever that drops as it will be awesome for certain workflows I have but I will still have to retain a true x86 machine for years to come for a few specific cases.

Fair point about 32 bit, this doesn't impact me as virtually no software I use is 32 bit. I actually do use a fair bit of arcane software that is for scientific computing, but the funny thing about these software programs is that they are written and maintained by a special breed of engineers...and thus tend to have variants for embedded linux which run basically native on ARM or ported to M1 very quickly since the performance was revolutionary. I guess I am lucky in that respect.

On the flip side, you're under-selling it by saying "if all you do is browse the net and use google docs." Aside from the niche professional programs I run that are way faster on the M1 (specifically some signal processing applications), the entire Adobe suite is just a way better experience. Exporting from the M1 premiere pro beta is about as fast as my overclocked 9900k, without the fan running on the M1. Fusion 360 runs way smoother on my M1 than my maxed out Intel MBP - this is confusing to me, as it's not native - but it's noticeable. Something with the GPU, perhaps. Music production with high end VSTs like East West Hollywood is just night and day faster, I can run almost 10x as many tracks as my Intel MBP and with lower overall latency.

My biggest issue with this gen MBP is that the I/O is too constrained for the processing power. I will upgrade to a quad thunderbolt version the second it is available.
 

Red Falcon

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Right now ARM needs standards. ARM needs a desktop motherboard with a socket to put in a CPU. ARM needs a UEFI loader. ARM needs a lot more software than it has now, and bejeweled clones don't count.
This has nearly all of the above, UEFI included, but is BGA and not socketed:
https://shop.solid-run.com/product/SRLX216S00D00GE064H08CH/

HoneyComb-sideways.jpg

The 16-core Cortex-A72 SoC has roughly 256 GFLOPS (FP32), and clock-for-clock is about 1/4 as powerful as Intel Skylake in single-thread performance; 2.0GHz Cortex-A72 ≈ 500MHz Skylake.

I'm not expecting miracles in performance, but it is definitely a start, and has active support and consistent development from the engineers who released it.

INaHCr16nc6aJl6SXHtGGKX1FccQgOdjcXuMecdfU0dgDLkvbo.jpg

ARM's future is not Apple.
Agreed, though Apple did definitely give it the mainstream push that it needed to prove itself against x86-64 in mainstream and average usage scenarios.
 
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[Spectre]

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M1A2 ;)

(Edit: could've swore there was an M1A4 Abrams, but I guess not. :/ )

There have been reported M1A3 and M1A4 designations over the years for proposals and certain upgrades. Parts of those have been fielded but they have not officially adopted the A3 or A4 nomenclature. The most current standard is the totally easy to say M1A2C(SepV3). The M1A2C(SepV4) is in testing now.
 

DukenukemX

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DukenukemX,
Have you used the M1? I've used it, it's not just a benchmark thing, it is also a very zippy experience.
From my experience, this is something corporate trolls like to point out. Have you used it? You should use it. I'm not going to spend $1k on Apple hardware just so I can give my opinion on it. I've used CPU's including ARM based CPU's, so I know what to expect. Oh look, one post. Yea...
I'm a long time embedded programmer familiar with both x86 and ARM architecture. I always thought Intel was brilliant making that creaky architecture perform so well, it really looks like ARM has just caught up. Apple has injected some of their knowledge to make their SOC so powerful, don't hate because it's Apple, admire the progress. I do think Nvidia and Qualcomm will close the gap, but the high end fabs are tied up with apple contracts. (invest in TSMC)
ARM went bankrupt because companies like Apple wasn't paying them enough. Which is why Nvidia is now trying buying them up. If I were Nvidia the first thing I'd do once I own ARM is increase the license fee or change the license agreement. ARM is so successful but yet not profitable enough to keep the company from going bankrupt? Something doesn't seem right there.

As for performance, yes the Apple M1 has caught up to x86 but this was done during the best possible time Apple could do so. Intel has been complacent being stuck on 14nm while AMD is gearing up to release mobile Zen3 based APU's which still don't use AMD's RDNA graphics. Intel and AMD are in the business to make hardware while Apple is not. Apple doesn't sell their silicon to other companies, like Intel and AMD do. Apple's silicon is basically technology they took from other companies like ARM and Imaginations PowerVR and then they modified it as their own tech. Intel will get their shit together because they do have like 90% of the market to fight over, and AMD will hopefully stop catering to Sony and Microsoft and release their tech to the rest of their customers. Apple will play catch up by poaching as many engineers as possible but it will be catch up.
I don't fully understand you comment on Apple silicon isn't ready for developers? Can you explain, the chart show that it runs most, just not natively... Rosetta is actually really good, benchmarks have shown it's a very workable solution. I live in the mostly in embedded developer world, so most of these tools isn't useful as for me, but it has not hampered me for my personal projects.
You want to depend on emulation to do your work? Rosetta works good but not perfect. Lots of people reported crashing issues when using Rosetta, but that was back in late 2020, so who knows if that's fixed now. You want native apps running to do your work, not emulation.
 

DukenukemX

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He hasn't used it, he is just a famous Apple hater.
Like any good person should. Seriously, you guys support this company after all the human rights issues they have constantly? Or we don't care about those people in less fortunate countries making our hardware?
If he did, he'd know that x86 games run on it just fine - and often faster than on native X86 Intel based MBPs. Games like CS:Go, Civilization 6, Elite Dangerous, etc.
Oh shit, games like CS:GO and Civilization 6? A 9 year old game shooter and a 5 year old top down side scrolling game. You got me man. Only way an Apple M1 user is going to play Cyberpunk 2077 is through Stadia. Also Intel based Macs run hot and thermal throttle fast which is what you'd expect to happen when Apple doesn't put the cooling fan next to the heatsink. Apple engineering amiright?
If we really want to be funny, we can settle it with a filmed Premiere Pro 4k Export. My M1 MBP will beat his desktop, and it won't even be that close. Don't call me an X86 hater either; I have a 3990x for tasks that my MBP can't handle. But I call a spade a spade, and ARM is here to stay and Apple is the absolute leader.
Ok I know nothing about Premiere Pro, so does anyone else know how this performs vs Windows software? I'm not a video editor so I know nothing of this subject, other than Davinci Resolve is the industry standard and it's free and on Linux. I also know Davinci Resolve runs faster on Linux than on Windows. Other than that, I can't find any benchmarks on performance between Premiere vs what's on x86 Windows.
 

paradoxical

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Like any good person should. Seriously, you guys support this company after all the human rights issues they have constantly? Or we don't care about those people in less fortunate countries making our hardware?

Oh shit, games like CS:GO and Civilization 6? A 9 year old game shooter and a 5 year old top down side scrolling game. You got me man. Only way an Apple M1 user is going to play Cyberpunk 2077 is through Stadia. Also Intel based Macs run hot and thermal throttle fast which is what you'd expect to happen when Apple doesn't put the cooling fan next to the heatsink. Apple engineering amiright?

Ok I know nothing about Premiere Pro, so does anyone else know how this performs vs Windows software? I'm not a video editor so I know nothing of this subject, other than Davinci Resolve is the industry standard and it's free and on Linux. I also know Davinci Resolve runs faster on Linux than on Windows. Other than that, I can't find any benchmarks on performance between Premiere vs what's on x86 Windows.

Half of Apple's OEMs are the same as OEM all the other PC hardware out there, like Foxconn. When you can buy a sustainably harvested, organic non-GMO motherboard made in the USA let me know brah.

Your entire gaming argument is hilarious because no serious gamer is going to play cyberpunk 2077 on any 13 inch laptop, so it's kind of a moot point. Even the 13in laptops with dedicated GPUs are a poor experience due to thermal throttling. The point still stands that the M1 is the fastest cpu available in any 13 inch laptop in the world, and that the GPU in it is comparable with any iGPU in any x86 mobile processor that is in a 13in laptop. The initial argument you are making is x86 vs. ARM and how x86 is superior performance wise - that's simply not the case when you compare processors in the equivalent class. Remember, the single-core benchmark scores of the M1 are about the same as the 5990x. The M1 CPU just stops what is available in other 13in laptops. Besides, If I want to play cyberbug 2077, I'll just play it on my 3990x quad rtx 2080ti system.

Let me rephrase to help you understand better - the M1 is faster than any x86 CPU in any 13in PC laptop in the world - running linux or windows - at Davinci resolve and Premiere pro. And it's faster than your desktop, on linux or windows, running Davinci resolve or premiere pro or whatever other video editing software you prefer. And it's a mobile, lightweight machine where the fan barely ever turns on that gets 10 hours plus of battery life. I can edit video fanless on an airplane faster than you can do it at your battlestation. This tool opens up new workflows and new possibilities for me, and that is very valuable. I have not had one instance of software incompatibility. For all intents and purposes, I can't tell whether I'm running ARM or x86 except that the machine is fast and the fan doesn't run. It has been a seamless experience for me.

I don't understand why people hitch their identities to defense of one architecture vs. another. I just buy whatever is the best and fastest tool for the job. Right now that's a 3990x for workstation needs and the M1 for a 13in mobile laptop. If Intel comes out with an x86 processor that destroys the M1, I'll buy that too. But let's call a spade a spade and applaud Apple for what it achieved with the M1, which is a pretty remarkable feat of engineering.

After all, there are going to be millions of people who buy M1 based iPads that have comparable processing power than your desktop. That's pretty amazing.
 

Mchart

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I haven't touched a Mac laptop or desktop since the IIcii. Tells you how long it's been. Paid $20k (early 90's, was a fuckload of money) for that thing along with a LaserWriter back in the day.

Anyways, i'll be picking up the next mini with the M2 or whatever they call it. I actually prefer OSX more lately because of doing development & pentesting work, having that useable OS along with the capability of a unix like terminal has always interested me.

I still think Apple would have made a lot more money just selling OSX to whoever wanted it, on any hardware, but I digress.
 

DukenukemX

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Half of Apple's OEMs are the same as OEM all the other PC hardware out there, like Foxconn. When you can buy a sustainably harvested, organic non-GMO motherboard made in the USA let me know brah.
Yes but you don't hear other OEM's having workers jump off buildings or destroying factories in India because they aren't getting paid. Even if that were the case then you'd think with all the money Apple has they can change this for the better.
Your entire gaming argument is hilarious because no serious gamer is going to play cyberpunk 2077 on any 13 inch laptop, so it's kind of a moot point.
Apple M1 only comes in a 13 inch variant?
Even the 13in laptops with dedicated GPUs are a poor experience due to thermal throttling.
Apple products yes, but there are others manufacturers who make laptops. Also why 13 inches? They do get bigger.
The point still stands that the M1 is the fastest cpu available in any 13 inch laptop in the world, and that the GPU in it is comparable with any iGPU in any x86 mobile processor that is in a 13in laptop.
Why 13 inches? Why does 13 inches matter to you? Anyway, lots of things are faster than the Apple M1. Not as good in battery life but faster indeed. Also if the GPU is so good then why doesn't it run Cyberpunk 2077 or a number of modern games? Even Metro Exodus has performance issues on the M1, and it was natively ported.

Let me rephrase to help you understand better - the M1 is faster than any x86 CPU in any 13in PC laptop in the world - running linux or windows - at Davinci resolve and Premiere pro. And it's faster than your desktop, on linux or windows, running Davinci resolve or premiere pro or whatever other video editing software you prefer.
Citation needed.
After all, there are going to be millions of people who buy M1 based iPads that have comparable processing power than your desktop. That's pretty amazing.
That's not how things work. If you're talking about video editing then sure because the M1 has dedicated hardware for this, while a dedicated GPU will easily outperform it in this task. Specifically Nvidia as AMD isn't very good at this sorta thing. Pure processing will still be faster on Ryzen APU's.
 

Mchart

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Yes but you don't hear other OEM's having workers jump off buildings or destroying factories in India because they aren't getting paid. Even if that were the case then you'd think with all the money Apple has they can change this for the better.

Apple M1 only comes in a 13 inch variant?

Apple products yes, but there are others manufacturers who make laptops. Also why 13 inches? They do get bigger.

Why 13 inches? Why does 13 inches matter to you? Anyway, lots of things are faster than the Apple M1. Not as good in battery life but faster indeed. Also if the GPU is so good then why doesn't it run Cyberpunk 2077 or a number of modern games? Even Metro Exodus has performance issues on the M1, and it was natively ported.


Citation needed.

That's not how things work. If you're talking about video editing then sure because the M1 has dedicated hardware for this, while a dedicated GPU will easily outperform it in this task. Specifically Nvidia as AMD isn't very good at this sorta thing. Pure processing will still be faster on Ryzen APU's.

In regards to the worker issues, you only hear about it with the connection to Apple because it's all the media focuses their attention on. It happens elsewhere, you only don't know about it because the media hasn't reported it. If you look at the suicide numbers in correlation to the number of workers at said factory, the rates are on-par with China as whole, BTW. The media never framed it that way though.

Not that I support building this stuff in China. I think Apple, and every technology company headquartered in the US, should be building their shit in the US with US labor. Even if that increases prices. I'd easily be fine paying double, even triple the price for an iPhone, a laptop, etc if I knew it was 100% built in the US.
 

Red Falcon

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And it's faster than your desktop, on linux or windows, running Davinci resolve or premiere pro or whatever other video editing software you prefer.
In single-thread, yes, but in SMP, no - it isn't even as fast as a stock 2700X.
While it is extremely impressive for its TDP, we are going to need to see desktop-class variants of it to get a true gauge on what the architecture is going to be capable of, and hopefully we will see that with M2.
But let's call a spade a spade and applaud Apple for what it achieved with the M1, which is a pretty remarkable feat of engineering.

After all, there are going to be millions of people who buy M1 based iPads that have comparable processing power than your desktop. That's pretty amazing.
I do agree with this, and the feat is quite impressive, especially at its TDP - 18 hours of battery life in that form-factor is a tough one to beat using x86-64.

ARM went bankrupt because companies like Apple wasn't paying them enough. Which is why Nvidia is now trying buying them up. If I were Nvidia the first thing I'd do once I own ARM is increase the license fee or change the license agreement. ARM is so successful but yet not profitable enough to keep the company from going bankrupt? Something doesn't seem right there.
That sounds like less of an issue with Apple, and more of a mismanagement issue with SoftBank, assuming their ARM division was causing them a loss in the first place.
From everything I have read, though, is that SoftBank is losing profits due to many other factors, and they needed the liquidity so they are selling the license to the highest bidder, which happens to be NVIDIA.
Intel will get their shit together because they do have like 90% of the market to fight over, and AMD will hopefully stop catering to Sony and Microsoft and release their tech to the rest of their customers.
I don't think anyone should hold their breath with Intel doing this - the new management and CEO were supposed to get things back on track and the 11th gen CPUs actually have worse offerings with price/performance and perform worse in many scenarios compared to the 10th gen CPUs, they have sold off their SSD division and many other technologies (some are very questionable), and we are going on over half a decade of major fumbles at this point, many of which are walking away from all together for either AMD, ARM, or otherwise.
As for AMD, they would never let go of such profitable, stable, and consistent contracts, especially with the extremely volatile and unstable market that the world has become in recent months.
You want to depend on emulation to do your work? Rosetta works good but not perfect. Lots of people reported crashing issues when using Rosetta, but that was back in late 2020, so who knows if that's fixed now. You want native apps running to do your work, not emulation.
Rosetta 2 is using translation, not emulation - this isn't splitting hairs, translation and emulation are two very different layers of processing code.
Unlike Microsoft, Apple was well prepared, and the most I have seen is maybe a 10% loss in performance when not running software natively and using Rosetta 2 - that's about the same performance drop from running a VM on x86-64, and in consumer-grade hardware is not a bad compromise by any stretch, and would hardly be noticed in all but a few edge-case scenarios.

As for the crashing issues, I'm pretty sure that has been resolved and/or software has finally been migrated to native ARM code, especially since that hasn't been a point of contention since last year early in the launch.
 

paradoxical

Limp Gawd
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Messages
134
Yes but you don't hear other OEM's having workers jump off buildings or destroying factories in India because they aren't getting paid. Even if that were the case then you'd think with all the money Apple has they can change this for the better.

Apple M1 only comes in a 13 inch variant?

Apple products yes, but there are others manufacturers who make laptops. Also why 13 inches? They do get bigger.

Why 13 inches? Why does 13 inches matter to you? Anyway, lots of things are faster than the Apple M1. Not as good in battery life but faster indeed. Also if the GPU is so good then why doesn't it run Cyberpunk 2077 or a number of modern games? Even Metro Exodus has performance issues on the M1, and it was natively ported.


Citation needed.

That's not how things work. If you're talking about video editing then sure because the M1 has dedicated hardware for this, while a dedicated GPU will easily outperform it in this task. Specifically Nvidia as AMD isn't very good at this sorta thing. Pure processing will still be faster on Ryzen APU's.

So to clear, your argument boils down to "x86 is a better and faster CPU architecture than ARM because an x86 processor with a dedicated GPU (which is not x86) can game better than ARM processors with integrated GPUs. But x86 losing in video editing to the M1 doesn't count because the M1 has dedicated hardware for that task built in"

Lol
 

paradoxical

Limp Gawd
Joined
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Messages
134
In single-thread, yes, but in SMP, no - it isn't even as fast as a stock 2700X.
While it is extremely impressive for its TDP, we are going to need to see desktop-class variants of it to get a true gauge on what the architecture is going to be capable of, and hopefully we will see that with M2.

Through emulation, yes. Running the native version of Premiere Pro or resolve it's significantly quicker than a stock 2700x.
 

Mchart

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
4,409
Yeah, if/when Apple pairs a real DGPU w/ their chips I think it will be an absolute game changer, and honestly will shock a lot of people with the performance.
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
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Messages
4,058
In regards to the worker issues, you only hear about it with the connection to Apple because it's all the media focuses their attention on. It happens elsewhere, you only don't know about it because the media hasn't reported it. If you look at the suicide numbers in correlation to the number of workers at said factory, the rates are on-par with China as whole, BTW. The media never framed it that way though.

Not that I support building this stuff in China. I think Apple, and every technology company headquartered in the US, should be building their shit in the US with US labor. Even if that increases prices. I'd easily be fine paying double, even triple the price for an iPhone, a laptop, etc if I knew it was 100% built in the US.
Building their stuff in the US would add about $3-5 based on the labor. But the US does not have the existing supply chain for materials, that is a $60B infrastructure project nobody is willing to front. China is the only place in the world you can go from raw material to finished product to a shipping container at a major port with less than 100km of travel from start to finish. There is a massive manufacturing gain there that can’t be matched.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
11,140
Through emulation, yes. Running the native version of Premiere Pro or resolve it's significantly quicker than a stock 2700x.
That is a good point, and correct - though remember, Rosetta 2 uses translation instead of emulation!
 

Red Falcon

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Also if the GPU is so good then why doesn't it run Cyberpunk 2077 or a number of modern games? Even Metro Exodus has performance issues on the M1, and it was natively ported.
Because the GPU is starved for memory bandwidth due to the unified memory architecture.
If the GPU had its own dedicated VRAM, this would be a very different story, but for what it is it is second to none in its TDP-class.
That's not how things work. If you're talking about video editing then sure because the M1 has dedicated hardware for this, while a dedicated GPU will easily outperform it in this task. Specifically Nvidia as AMD isn't very good at this sorta thing. Pure processing will still be faster on Ryzen APU's.
That's becoming a bit apples to oranges in such a comparison.
Certainly any modern GPU with a 150 watt TDP or greater will crush the GPU and hardware in the M1 SoC... an SoC that has a TDP of less than 35 watts.

This is why we are trying to compare the M1 to other CPUs/APUs/SoCs within a similar TDP range.
This video showcases exactly how the M1 flat out destroys similar offerings from Intel and AMD, and is very fair about what is being compared and the results:

 

[Spectre]

[H] Admin
Staff member
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It's only cool once they name the next generation the M15a2

I am not sure a late '80's Eagle Arms made Armalite branded non-military firearm would keep with the running joke there. The modern Armalite has nothing to do with the development of the AR series.
 

LFaWolf

[H]ard|Gawd
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Going forward, Intel may improve upon its management and processes, but we are going to have serious competition. As a consumer, I am pretty happy about it. I don't think one will dominate another, except in particular use cases. In this case, for a closed environment such as the Mac, Apple has a winner for the foreseeable future.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
5,577
That sounds like less of an issue with Apple, and more of a mismanagement issue with SoftBank, assuming their ARM division was causing them a loss in the first place.
From everything I have read, though, is that SoftBank is losing profits due to many other factors, and they needed the liquidity so they are selling the license to the highest bidder, which happens to be NVIDIA.
I hear everyone blame SoftBank on ARM's finances but it still doesn't make sense. ARM is literally everywhere from laptops to routers and even with mismanagement you're telling me they're broke? I expect Nvidia to increase the fees for ARM licenses.
I don't think anyone should hold their breath with Intel doing this - the new management and CEO were supposed to get things back on track and the 11th gen CPUs actually have worse offerings with price/performance and perform worse in many scenarios compared to the 10th gen CPUs, they have sold off their SSD division and many other technologies (some are very questionable), and we are going on over half a decade of major fumbles at this point, many of which are walking away from all together for either AMD, ARM, or otherwise.
I don't expect Intel to make something competitive today. Maybe next year? Probably in 2023 honestly. These sort of things take time.
As for AMD, they would never let go of such profitable, stable, and consistent contracts, especially with the extremely volatile and unstable market that the world has become in recent months.
Unfortunately yes.
Rosetta 2 is using translation, not emulation - this isn't splitting hairs, translation and emulation are two very different layers of processing code.
Unlike Microsoft, Apple was well prepared, and the most I have seen is maybe a 10% loss in performance when not running software natively and using Rosetta 2 - that's about the same performance drop from running a VM on x86-64, and in consumer-grade hardware is not a bad compromise by any stretch, and would hardly be noticed in all but a few edge-case scenarios.
It's emulation but very well thought out emulation. You wouldn't need Rosetta 2 if it wasn't emulation. Also the M1 isn't 10% slower, but more like 50% to 75% slower, as most tests show. Impressive yes, but not the same as a VM.
 

[Spectre]

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I hear everyone blame SoftBank on ARM's finances but it still doesn't make sense. ARM is literally everywhere from laptops to routers and even with mismanagement you're telling me they're broke? I expect Nvidia to increase the fees for ARM licenses.

If you have the diverse market penetration that ARM has and you are losing money on your ARM division then well........you're an idiot.
 
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