M.2 and SSD's 20 to 40 Gbps with NVMe

Discussion in 'SSDs & Data Storage' started by JoseJones, Dec 4, 2014.

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  1. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    Wow, SSD's at 40 Gbps would be sweet!

    The current connectors and AHCI interface is the limitation for SSD's (and disc hard drives too) capping out at around 600 MB/s making SATA soon to be obsolete, however, SATA has already made the decision to evolve into M.2 and PCIe along with a new NVMe interface. It looks like the new NVMe interface and drivers will be supported by Windows 10, 8 and 7. We will need NVMe just to get passed the current SATA 3 at 6Gbps limitations anyway and that is what is holding back the full potential of SSD's.

    NVMe
    http://www.nvmexpress.org

    Welcome to the fast-moving world of flash connectors
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2014/11/13/flash_connectors/

    The Interface of Choice for SSDs
    http://www.cadalyst.com/hardware/workstations/interface-choice-ssds-21388

    Jan 5th, 2015 Conference
    http://storagevisions.com

    August 9, 2013: AHCI and NVMe as Interfaces for SATA Express Devices - Overview
    https://www.sata-io.org/sites/defau...A Express Interface Options - Whitepaper_.pdf

    SATA Express
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATA_Express

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    "With a 4 x PCI Express 3.0/2.0 bandwidth, M.2 supports up to 32Gbps data-transfer speeds..."

    ASUS X99-E WS LGA 2011-v3 Intel X99
    http://www.amazon.com/X99-E-WS-LGA2011-v3-CrossFireX-Motherboard/dp/B00OVAG02W/
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
  2. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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  3. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    What's the latest news on M.2? What does the ".2" stand for - 2nd generation? If so, does that mean we'll eventually get M.3, M.4 etc? It seems like the .2 may refer to PCIe 2.0, so motherboards with PCIe 3.0 should have M.3 and motherboards with PCIe 4.0 should have M.4? Or set me straight on that, please. Or are there any Youtube videos explaining this - there should be ... will somebody make one? I only found these everything else seemed not all that well informed as they were focused on z97 & z99 not next years next generation:

    What is SATA Express? Z97
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQEvOr55Pf8

    What is M.2? PCIe SSDs Explained
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVMVjyBA7Q0

    M.2
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2

    I'm looking forward to the Samsung SM951 M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 SSD with NVMe support. It seems like AFTER M.2 with the new NVMe interface and connectors becomes the new standard in 2015 we will see a flood of new M.2 and PCIe SSD's with x8 lanes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  4. Aesma

    Aesma [H]ard|Gawd

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    These competing interfaces are really really bad for the consumer, they mean it will take years more before the dust settles.
     
  5. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    Good point. They really should be much further along by now.

    The sooner they make this interface obsolete the better: Advanced Host Controller Interface (AHCI)

    The NVMe interface is at least a good start in the right direction.

    Apparently, mSATA: "suffers from all the same problems as SATA" ... "mSATA was succeeded by M.2 and is not likely to be included in any future designs"

    Doesn't all of this essentially make SATA for SSD's obsolete? They'll still use it for disc HD's but, its time seems to be up when the new standards are in place. The NVMe interface and its connectors have already started to become the new standard and certainly in the next set of new motherboards, CPU's, OS's etc.

    Are there even any performance increases for standard disc HD's left? It appears to have hit the limit aside from trying to get 10Gbps out of SATA Express 3.2, mSATA ... which is why there will never be a SATA 4 for disc HD's, right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  6. wirk

    wirk Gawd

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    Before bombastic statements it would be good to gather information about the trio M.2 - PCIe 3.0 x4 - NVME. Net maximum data rate of this system after removing protocol overhead is 3.2 GB/s. All manufacturers are now working on chip controllers, new SSD's should appear in quanitity over the H2/15.
     
  7. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    For those interested ...

    Of course, SATA will not just disappear over night but, like VGA, IDE, EIDE, PATA and mSATA, SATA now appears to be on the path towards obsolete heaven. And with SATA 3's 600 MB/s maximum, holding back the full potential of M.2 and SSD's, I say, the sooner the better.

    As SATA, like VGA, IDE, EIDE, PATA and mSATA, SATA will just be taking up motherboard real-estate that could be better utilized. VGA should've been removed YEARS AGO and took up space few used, which also costs money. I'd like to see new motherboards without all that useless obsolete crap - at least so we don't have to pay for obsolete parts few will use.

    What is the maximum for SATA Express and M.2 socket M or M+B ??? SATA Express appears to be limited to just two lanes and we lose access to other ports. If we use M.2 then, we lose access to SATA Express since we cannot use both simultaneously.

    Give this a going over as it explains a bit of these issues I'm talking about on "A 1400 MB/s SSD: ASRock's Z97 Extreme6 And Samsung's XP941":

    M.2 And SATA Express, Discussed
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-2.html

    Z97 Express: The Same Old Bandwidth Limitations
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-3.html

    "The Samsung XP941 employs AHCI, which has some inherent overhead that chokes the potential of solid-state storage. NVMe was designed to address this. However, Intel's NVMe driver isn't expected until the end of 2014. As a result, we have to accept that a PCIe-based SSD utilizing AHCI is probably going to demonstrate modest advantages, at best."

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-6.html

    ---

    NVMe won't make it into Intel's driver until the Rapid Storage Technology 3.7 release, slated for introduction at the end of 2014

    NVMe rises to prominence and we get SATA Express-attached drives. As we get closer to Intel's Skylake introduction, two generations down the road, more emphasis will be placed on increasing SSD performance as platform controller hubs are equipped with PCIe 3.0 signaling.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-9.html

    Comments:

    "Once an SSD is plugged into the Ultra M.2 slot, the bandwidth between CPU and GPU is cut-down by half. Therefore, while the end-user gets additional SSD performance, the end-user may lose some GPU performance because of insufficient bandwidth between it and the CPU."

    The NVMe interface and its connectors are an obvious first step to remedy these issues, but not the only thing that needs done. I hope the next generation of motherboards, CPU's etc., will fix these issues.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2014
  8. rabidz7

    rabidz7 [H]ard|Gawd

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    No. CRTs need a RAMDAC to run. Removing VGA and its DAC would mean that users would have to have a discrete GPU in order to use a CRT. If they can't afford a dGPU, they would be stuck with LCDs, which would not be good. If VGA was replaced by BNC, which can cheaply be passively adapted to VGA, that would be fine, but that wouldn't ever happen.
     
  9. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    That's a valid argument BUT, they can have my 10-year old VGA to DVI adapter

    Business class products need the older standards ... it also makes trouble shooting easier but, it's time to let go and get updated with these new standards.
     
  10. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    So, the driving force behind the concept of NMVe was Intel. And that makes me want to do an Intel build for my next system even tho Intel already made it clear that they will share NVMe with everybody to help advance the new standard across the board, which is awesome. I've never had an Intel system before - always AMD:

    "Intel led the industry in creation of a new Non-Volatile Memory Express* (NVMe*) storage interface standard. NVMe overcomes SAS/SATA SSD performance limitations by optimizing hardware and software to take full advantage of NVM SSD technology."

    http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/solid-state-drives/intel-ssd-dc-family-for-pcie.html

    Intel SSD Data Center Family For NVMe
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c9vUuGGQeY

    http://intel.com/ssd

    http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/solid-state-drives/solid-state-drives-ssd.html

    I am wondering if there will be any adapters/connectors to help improve already existing SATA III SSD performance with the new NVMe or an update of some sort, to help them see their full potential - possibly up to 10 Gbps? Or if there's no other way to get NVMe support except to buy a new motherboard, CPU, SSD/M.2 etc.?

    The video above makes it sound like new NVMe will not add to the costs either since it was an easy fix within the already existing framework. I guess we'll find out fairly soon. I just hope they don't cheap and stiff us with measly 12 and 16 Gbps SSD's when they could really open up the flood gates for 20, 32 Gbps and 64 Gbps SSD's if they wanted to and even more when PCIe 4.0 comes out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  11. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    "Intel Corporation (NASDAQ:INTC) is preparing to launch its Broadwell and Skylake chipsets in 2015"
    http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/09/intel-corporation-launching-broadwell-skylake-chips/

    "Skylake will be in production in early 2015 and in products by the end of next year."
    http://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/74481-intel-broadwell-skylake-client-cpus-launching-2015/
     
  12. devman

    devman 2[H]4U

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    You use of 'g/ps' to describe Gb/s, or the more familiar Gbps, is hugely distracting when reading your posts.

    The '/' replaces the word 'per' in the spoken unit. g/ps would be (assuming g is intended to be giga) giga per per second. Interpreted strictly, however, the unit you present is 'grams per picosecond'
     
  13. AMD T-type

    AMD T-type [H]ardness Supreme

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    lol, I'm glad I wasn't the only one. :eek:
     
  14. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    It's just anal-retentive and pretentious but, whatever, this forum will not allow me to change the title of threads or I would. The information is still good so just stop getting hung-up on such hair-spitters. Simply offer a correction if you're going to complain.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  15. JoeComp

    JoeComp [H]ard|Gawd

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    Extremely distracting, and definitely NOT just splitting hairs. It is a serious mistake that makes posts difficult to understand.

    Of course, he wrote that subject a while ago. But instead of insulting people for pointing out the error, he would be better off just accepting the corrections quietly and remembering not to make the same error again.
     
  16. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    rep.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  17. JoeComp

    JoeComp [H]ard|Gawd

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    I stopped reading here. No, it was not minor, and no, everybody did not know exactly what you were talking about. That is the problem (that, and the fact that you keep insulting people for pointing out the error rather than just accepting it and not doing it again).
     
  18. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    Moving on ...

    Samsung's New SM951 M.2 SSD
    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-sm951-m.2-ssd,28406.html

    Kingston Shows Off Speedy M.2 PCI-Express SSDs At CES
    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/kingston-predator-m.2-pcie-ssd,28397.html

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
  19. dandragonrage

    dandragonrage [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No, it would mean that they need an active adapter which would be, at most, $50 and likely far less. And personally I think it's perfectly acceptable to do that. Just because someone owns an ancient product does not obligate companies to design modern products around it. And I say this even though I do still own a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070SB. I do not expect or even WANT companies to waste their time/money/PCB area to support this monitor that I do not need supported. I've seen many used LCD monitors be given away or sold for $20ish. There is no excuse to claim that an end-user NEEDS VGA. The only reason VGA still exists is because, similarly, some companies have projectors in their conference rooms that they think need to be supported until the end of time. It's very unreasonable. Fortunately more and more companies are upgrading those to models with DVI/HDMI support.

    There seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread including from OP. M.2 and mSATA and others are just form factors except that M.2 is specced to allow both SATA and PCIe (which is a very minor deal). PCIe SSDs could just as easily be miniPCIe or something. M.2 when properly set up would allow a user to buy a machine with a SATA SSD and later upgrade to PCIe, except that very few laptops have PCIe support in their M.2 slots. Personally, I think PCIe support in M.2 should have been mandatory because that would simplify the situation rather than complicating it. NVMe does not work over SATA. AHCI does work in PCIe and does not limit you to SATA speeds, though it does limit your speeds compared to NVMe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
  20. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  21. spacemanjupiter

    spacemanjupiter n00b

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    It's about damn time the pc industry got off their butts and started doing something new. The last 5 years have been STALE
     
  22. dandragonrage

    dandragonrage [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I agree. I still own a 120GB Intel 320 SSD because it has pissed me off that there has been no useful development in SSDs for several years. Was happy to hear about the relatively-affordable Intel P3500 but then they delayed it and then, even worse, they partnered with a hate group that despises 50% of the planet's population, including myself.

    I'm looking forward to my next SSD, a Samsung NVMe drive, whenever I can buy one.
     
  23. Arct1c0n

    Arct1c0n Gawd

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    Until there OS bootable, all useless to me.
     
  24. Snowknight26

    Snowknight26 [H]ardness Supreme

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    You keep using the wrong numbers in your posts (and in the thread title, no less). The chart clearly says 8 Gbps, not 80.
     
  25. bds1904

    bds1904 Gawd

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    Actually the chart says 8GB (Gigabytes) per second which is roughly 64Gb (gigabits) per second.
     
  26. Snowknight26

    Snowknight26 [H]ardness Supreme

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    True, complete derp on my part. :p

    Still, we're just hitting over 1GB/s with current NVMe SSDs so speeds of 10GB/s to 20GB/s are far-fetched.
     
  27. Aibohphobia

    Aibohphobia [H]ard|Gawd

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    They are bootable, though it depends on motherboard support.
     
  28. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    I've apparently confused GB and Gb and multiplied x10 instead of x8.

    PCIe 2.0 x2 lanes = 1000 MBps = 1 GBps = 8 Gbps

    PCIe 2.0 x4 lanes = 2000 MBps = 2 GBps = 16 Gbps

    PCIe 2.0 x8 lanes = 4000 MBps = 4 GBps = 32 Gbps

    PCIe 3.0 x4 lanes = 4000 MBps = 4 GBps = 32 Gbps

    PCIe 3.0 x8 lanes = 8000 MBps = 8 GBps = 64 Gbps

    PCIe 4.0 x4 lanes = 8000 MBps = 8 GBps = 64 Gbps

    PCIe 4.0 x8 lanes = 16000 MBps = 16 GBps = 128 Gbps

    PCIe 4.0 x16 lanes = 32000 MBps = 32 GBps = 256 Gbps
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  29. alabrand1

    alabrand1 [H]Lite

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    I'll be pissed if my R5E doesn't support bootable NVMe M.2 drives.

    I'll be even more pissed if they shortly thereafter release a R5E Black Edition that does support it.
     
  30. Michaelius

    Michaelius [H]ardness Supreme

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    Are there any real life tests how this translates to normal software and games ?
     
  31. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  32. kenshinco

    kenshinco n00b

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    Currently R5E doesn't support NVMe because they don't see a need for it yet.
     
  33. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I will have to read the article. I assume they are talking about seek times with the 2x increase because otherwise the statement is ridiculous to me. I mean 15 years ago we had drives that netted 25MB/s on the outer tracks.
     
  34. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    Apologies, drescherjm, that was just a paraphrase from the video where she says:

    "... so if we look over the past few decades your CPU performance is increased by 175x and if you look at mechanical hard drives, which is how you access most of your data today, they've increased less than 2x and that comes down to mechanical nature of hard drives..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epn1U0mVoXQ

    I've been trying to get that image there but, it's nowhere to be found on Google images.
     
  35. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No problem. I was just trying to understand how this was possibly true.
     
  36. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    I did just find these from Intel saying basically the same thing:

    http://www.flashmemorysummit.com/English/Collaterals/Proceedings/2009/20090812_Keynote6_Piednoel.pdf

    http://web.stanford.edu/class/ee380/Abstracts/081112-Fazio-slides.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  37. dandragonrage

    dandragonrage [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I just updated the UEFI/whatever on my Asrock Z97 Extreme4 to support NVMe... even though it'll be a while before I get such a drive, most likely... They are probably not the only one with Z97 support but I have no idea what other brands might at this point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  38. alabrand1

    alabrand1 [H]Lite

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    Damn it...
     
  39. JoseJones

    JoseJones Gawd

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    So, while the current AHCI interface and its connectors, ie SATA, cap performance at around 600 MB/s, I am curious if disc hard drives will be able to take any advantage of the new NVMe interface and connectors for any performance increases? It obviously would not be anything near the performance of SSD's but, with the high price premium for the new NVMe SSD's and M.2, I wonder if Western Digital has anything up their sleeve like a WD Black Series with NVMe?

    Across everything I've read thus far I've never heard that question asked or answered.
     
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