LulzSec Brought Down By Own Leader

kontact

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Higher taxes on the rich to help pay for social programs to help the poor. You know that most rich people got rich by exploiting the poor, right?
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Ending outsourcing would be a great idea. Frankly, a lot of corporations make out like bandits here in the US due to some tax loopholes and having their workforce overseas. It's shocking to me why something as simple as implementing a system where businesses (all of them, both those based here and abroad) are taxed by how much money they've made here in the US and how many workers they hire here as well, but in a proportional fashion. If you make more money here you should hire more workers here in order to pay fewer taxes. If you make less money you're expected to hire less workers and in turn pay fewer taxes. Currently, there's no such system that forcefully, tax wise, asks businesses to keep their money and employment within US borders. They make an obscene amount of money here and invest it into other countries and we have little problem with it. That's called being a leech at the expense of the well-being of the entire nation

It comes down to transfer pricing (the rules surrounding how international companies can transfer profits from their subsidiaries across borders) which is a huge and very complicated issue.

Most people - except those directly profiting from the current situation - agree that transfer pricing is broken, but very few solutions have emerged, and no one seems willing to touch it.

I am not an expert on the subject so I don't pretend to have the answer, but yes I do agree, fixing transfer pricing would be a great start, the question is how to do it.
 

bh192012

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Zarathustra[H];1038462548 said:
I didn't say I agreed with everything they have done.

I just give them props for standing up for something they believe in.

In a country where so many can't even be bothered to get off their lazy asses and vote it really stands out as a refreshing difference.

You realize Osama Bin Laden stood up for what he believed in right?
 
D

Deleted member 126051

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Jeremy Hammond. I'm familiar with him, because I helped the FBI put him in prison a few years back on similar charges.

When I saw "Chicago" mentioned, he was the first person I thought about. But I immediately thought "No way he'd be stupid enough to do this gain". Then I read his name...

Sweet christ. This guy has the common sense of a two year old.

Basically this guy thinks he's some sort of elite, radical anarchist hacker.

In reality, he's not much more than a very monofocused script kiddie. He actually went into a security group and tried to convince the security researchers that they should "keep the best hacks for themselves" so they look "more elite" to up and coming hackers.

Quite simply there's not enough facepalm for this idiot.

Here's a couple links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hammond

And here he is at DefCon a few years back. This little talk he gave nearly got him mobbed and beaten down BY THE ATTENDEES! Made it VERY easy to play "spot the fed".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1269112265902193941

And the Yoko Ono wannabe was his ex roomate who finally bounced him for non-payment and stealing all her stuff.
 

pelo

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Zarathustra[H];1038463012 said:
It comes down to transfer pricing (the rules surrounding how international companies can transfer profits from their subsidiaries across borders) which is a huge and very complicated issue.

Most people - except those directly profiting from the current situation - agree that transfer pricing is broken, but very few solutions have emerged, and no one seems willing to touch it.

I am not an expert on the subject so I don't pretend to have the answer, but yes I do agree, fixing transfer pricing would be a great start, the question is how to do it.

I think whether it amounts to a tariff at the border on goods coming from overseas or taxes within our borders based on the income earned, it definitely needs fixing. There's definitely some wiggle room there, but, yea, at the moment nobody seems willing to talk about the 600lb gorilla in the room. Unless there's incentive to further boost employment then it won't happen, at least at significant rates.

It's a global economy, and the notion that corporations are somehow "American businesses" has to be thrown out the window when we look at the likes of GE, nearly all the banks, and any company that's moved their manufacturing jobs elsewhere, taking profits and investing overseas. You'd figure at some point someone would realize that the health and the wealth of the nation should be taken into account.

Election year + unwilling politicians and all that.
 
D

Deleted member 126051

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Also, read through some of the older edits.
A great deal of white-washing has gone on for this guy's entry.
 

bh192012

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Basically I believe Anonymous is a group of people. That's about as tightly as you can label it. The group is so diverse (talent, activities direction,) that I can't say I hate or support them. I can only give opinions on specific activities. It's similar with OWS since they never really united under specfic ideas or directions.


Also Zarathustra[H], I didn't mean what I posted earlier to sound so harsh, my point was more directed at the need to justify actions based on their merits, not just actions for the sake of anything.
 

Eisenblut

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Higher taxes on the rich to help pay for social programs to help the poor. You know that most rich people got rich by exploiting the poor, right?
If you have some money in the bank, a little cash in your wallet and a little change in your pocket then you are part of the 8% of the most wealthy people in the world.

Now shut up already about rich people because you are one of them when you use the same comparison of the rich to yourself as with yourself and the truly poor of this world.
 

DarkStar02

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To all those hating on anonymous: What are YOU doing to take a stand against these crooked government entities and evil corporations?
 

spamdie

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To all those hating on anonymous: What are YOU doing to take a stand against these crooked government entities and evil corporations?

The problem with their standing is they weren't direct enough. They took the innocent with them. Along with you know someone joining in the party was crooked enough to steal while the shit hit the fan.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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And all you've done is create a class of people dependent upon the government instead of dependent upon themselves.

http://news.investors.com/article/6...nt-dependence-jumps-under-president-obama.htm

Big surprise. In the biggest recession in over 70 years people have become dependent on the security net meant to help desperate people in just this type of circumstance... :rolleyes:

What do you think unemployment insurance and welfare is for?

The funny part is that the article you posted blames Obama for this, when he hasn't signed a single bill on the topic of security nets since being in office.

What you are seeing is the result of an enormous bubble created on the watch of his predecessors bursting, and the security nets we have built into our society kicking in and working.

Once the economy is no longer in the tubes, these numbers will drop again.

People who are unemployed today are not people who are somehow lazy or don't want to work. These are people who have lost their jobs not of their own doing and who without this support would be starving on the streets.

Is that the kind of society you want to live in? Maybe we can get a mass amount of American shanty towns. Would that make you happy?
 

Zarathustra[H]

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You realize Osama Bin Laden stood up for what he believed in right?

I guess Osama Bin Laden is the new Hitler in the ever evolving Godwin's Law.

If you honestly think anything Anonymous, or even their bratty Lulzec counterparts have done in any way compare to a mass murdering terrorist then you really need your head examined.
 

Reimu

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Stop saying that Anonymous was really fighting the big government. They did it all for the lulz.

This is one of those UMAD BRO moments, and over Anon, who are not your private army, I can only say that I shalt naught giveth a fuck.
 

Eisenblut

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Stop saying that Anonymous was really fighting the big government. They did it all for the lulz.

This is one of those UMAD BRO moments, and over Anon, who are not your private army, I can only say that I shalt naught giveth a fuck.
 

kirbyrj

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Zarathustra[H];1038463244 said:
Big surprise. In the biggest recession in over 70 years people have become dependent on the security net meant to help desperate people in just this type of circumstance... :rolleyes:

What do you think unemployment insurance and welfare is for?

The funny part is that the article you posted blames Obama for this, when he hasn't signed a single bill on the topic of security nets since being in office.

What you are seeing is the result of an enormous bubble created on the watch of his predecessors bursting, and the security nets we have built into our society kicking in and working.

Once the economy is no longer in the tubes, these numbers will drop again.

People who are unemployed today are not people who are somehow lazy or don't want to work. These are people who have lost their jobs not of their own doing and who without this support would be starving on the streets.

Is that the kind of society you want to live in? Maybe we can get a mass amount of American shanty towns. Would that make you happy?

I disagree. First, the constant extensions of unemployment benefits is something that has happened under this president. Second, the reliance upon the government has been on a constant increase since the early 60's no doubt furthered along by Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society."

I'm not saying that everyone who is unemployed is lazy. But the data seems to indicate that the longer you extend benefits like unemployment, the longer people will be without work. Why work when you can get free money? When I was unemployed, I actually made more money off of unemployment than I did when I went back to work. If you really wanted to get the most bang for your buck during the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression, maybe the government should put people to work like FDR did with his alphabet soup programs instead of just giving people money to spend.

My underlying concern is that the average person should be more responsible for himself and not be looking to the government for a handout.
 

Outamyhead

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I got it, how about a war on drugs!

We have Apple helping us with that, just find a junkie wanting to palm off an iPad to a meth distributor, and track the built in GPS to the doorstep..like the one in Palo Alto over the weekend.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I'm not saying that everyone who is unemployed is lazy. But the data seems to indicate that the longer you extend benefits like unemployment, the longer people will be without work. Why work when you can get free money? When I was unemployed, I actually made more money off of unemployment than I did when I went back to work. If you really wanted to get the most bang for your buck during the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression, maybe the government should put people to work like FDR did with his alphabet soup programs instead of just giving people money to spend.

This presumes that there are jobs for everyone who wants them. That simply isn't true today.

This line of reasoning might work well during a booming economy where most unemployment is voluntary, but today that isn't the case.

Today there are 3.9 unemployed people in the U.S. for every job opening.

(Note that this is not 3.9 applicants. There are usually tens if not hundreds of those, as the unemployed tend to apply for many jobs)

This number just reflects taking all the people who do not have work, and dividing that number by the total number of open jobs in the U.S. today.

Most of those who are unemployed simply can not get work no matter how hard they try.

I would recommend giving this a listen.

The whole concept of government dependence is really just a farce made up by the right wing in order to drum up political support in an election year.
 

DarkStar_WNY

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Zarathustra[H];1038463258 said:
I guess Osama Bin Laden is the new Hitler in the ever evolving Godwin's Law.

If you honestly think anything Anonymous, or even their bratty Lulzec counterparts have done in any way compare to a mass murdering terrorist then you really need your head examined.

And the fact that your hanging your hat on this defense shows how empty your cause truely is.

Zarathustra was simply pointing out that excusing people because they think they are in the right opens up excuses for a whole lot more then some worthless script kiddies who think they are some sort of elite group.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Whops, forgot to reply to these points.

I'm not saying that everyone who is unemployed is lazy. But the data seems to indicate that the longer you extend benefits like unemployment, the longer people will be without work. Why work when you can get free money?

Or, the fact is that unemployment benefits tend to be extended during times of extreme duress when people tend to be unemployed longer... :rolleyes:

When there isn't a massive need, unemployment benefits usually aren't extended.

When I was unemployed, I actually made more money off of unemployment than I did when I went back to work.

That certainly wasn't the case for me. Unemployment benefits didn't even amount to half of my employment income.

So in your case, why didn't you ride the gravy train of government money? Most people simply don't do this, and either way most programs are designed such that people need to demonstrate that they have been looking for work in order to obtain the benefits.

If you really wanted to get the most bang for your buck during the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression, maybe the government should put people to work like FDR did with his alphabet soup programs instead of just giving people money to spend.

I agree, this would be best. it's also very difficult. People are unemployed across so many vastly different fields of occupation that it is difficult to orchestrate jobs for them all from the federal level. (not everyone can build bridges and roads). When this has been tried more recently it turns out that getting the money out into the market and projects started is a VERY slow process.

Unemployment benefits help bridge the gap for people and they get money out into the market much more quickly. In a bass-ackwards way, it is actually more of a free market solution than the FDR style projects, as this money flows out to the market, where it gets spent on stuff immediately, in its turn letting the market figure out where the next jobs should be created, rather than big government.

My underlying concern is that the average person should be more responsible for himself and not be looking to the government for a handout.

I agree with this, but I also feel that today we are in such an extraordinary situation that without this help many people simply could not survive. You'd have families out on the streets, homeless groveling for food.

I don't think ANYONE wants this.
 

stevedave

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I think LulzSec added way more value than anyone knows. They hack into companies as a joke not really doing any real damage. Sounds like they should be getting paid for finding security holes. I imagine if they wanted to fuck shit up instead of LUL shit up the probably could of.

To the other topics in this thread. Society is an ever evolving thing that has currently outgrown its current state and will be forced into evolving no matter how hard the current generation fights it. Its like nobody chooses to acknowledge the exponential growth and the impossibility for it to sustain itself. When the government says its a $15,000,000,000,000.00 in debt as if this figure is attainable through any natural means as if the possibility of this debt ever being paid off is possible and to whom this money is owed too. This is ignored because there is no fix there is no resolution our society will evolve but to do that it must first die.
 

kontact

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So, should I take all of my money out of my bank account and buy canned beans now or later?
 
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You need to quit using "you" as well. It implies I had something to do with it. Of course, both of us being here on the intarwebz we clearly don't know jack about each other, yet you've apparently made a startling revelation. Cool story, bro. But whereas I've at least read a bit about it to state that it was the customer's money (debit cards, checking accounts, etc) you've proclaimed it's all based on credit...

That's cool that you think I haven't read anything. All that I was referring to was your post, in which *you* explicitly were saying CC companies, so what am I supposed to do, assume you meant everything with regards to money and banks? Then you go on and start changing your story to include banks and debit, etc. I have no desire to start any bickering, just point out that one thing, which I've already done.

And I'll use the word "you" all I want, thanks. :D
 

sd11

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Once again, that sounds all nice and good, but how do you go about fixing issues with "income inequality"? Punish those who earned money by redistributing it to those who didn't? How do you guard against the mentality that "why should I work when the government will redistribute money my way"?

Those at the top rob those at the bottom. It's sick. Private business are turning us into a corporatocracy with the racists, sexists, and bigots, aka conservatives cheering it all on.
 

stevedave

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So, should I take all of my money out of my bank account and buy canned beans now or later?

I wouldn't go that far, the people sustaining our broken society are doing a good job of keeping it on life support and the main parties we owe money too only wish to collect fraction of interest off them trillions.

Though a few weeks of food, some self defense, and some planning never hurt anyone.
 

MavericK

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I'm not saying that everyone who is unemployed is lazy. But the data seems to indicate that the longer you extend benefits like unemployment, the longer people will be without work. Why work when you can get free money? When I was unemployed, I actually made more money off of unemployment than I did when I went back to work. If you really wanted to get the most bang for your buck during the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression, maybe the government should put people to work like FDR did with his alphabet soup programs instead of just giving people money to spend.

I think that's more the underlying problem than "being lazy". When companies are offering such low salaries that it makes unemployment appealing, there's a problem.
 

bh192012

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Zarathustra[H];1038463258 said:
I guess Osama Bin Laden is the new Hitler in the ever evolving Godwin's Law.

If you honestly think anything Anonymous, or even their bratty Lulzec counterparts have done in any way compare to a mass murdering terrorist then you really need your head examined.

As long as we're completely missing the point and building strawmen, so by omission, you're saying that as long as I have a cause, any cause, it doesn't matter what I do and to whom I do it, as long as it's not mass murder then?
 

Reimu

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As long as we're completely missing the point and building strawmen, so by omission, you're saying that as long as I have a cause, any cause, it doesn't matter what I do and to whom I do it, as long as it's not mass murder then?

This sums up exactly how I feel about the Anonymous Apologists.

I went ORLY over how LulzSec would have the gall to claim that they were hacktivists. These individuals were indulging in their ego-trip to the point that they no longer recognize the amorality of it all.

To make matters worse, the cause that Anonymous rally boils down to "for the lulz" at the expense of anyone and everyone, even amongst themselves. It makes it difficult for me to not think of the memetic irony of having several party vans putting a stop for their antics.

Even conspiracy tinfoil hat folks don't trumpet their woes against the authority and seek pleasure in achieving their aim at the expense of anyone and everyone. Why should we weep for a dead Nero when he fiddled as Rome burn out of his own pleasure?
 

Reimu

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I think LulzSec added way more value than anyone knows. They hack into companies as a joke not really doing any real damage. Sounds like they should be getting paid for finding security holes. I imagine if they wanted to fuck shit up instead of LUL shit up the probably could of.

To the other topics in this thread. Society is an ever evolving thing that has currently outgrown its current state and will be forced into evolving no matter how hard the current generation fights it. Its like nobody chooses to acknowledge the exponential growth and the impossibility for it to sustain itself. When the government says its a $15,000,000,000,000.00 in debt as if this figure is attainable through any natural means as if the possibility of this debt ever being paid off is possible and to whom this money is owed too. This is ignored because there is no fix there is no resolution our society will evolve but to do that it must first die.

Why, didn't the Western Roman Empire at the end of the 3rd Century faced something like this and worse? Be thankful that American domestic and international trades are still intact, that barter has yet to occur widespread, local manufacturing en masse by individual American state isn't the trend...
 

Roflcopter_Down

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us middle class is dissolving (as if it was anything before lol). poor people feed the rich people.

for most people, it is impossible to 'get rich' without totally changing their lives. so why care? take what handouts the govt deems appropriate and keep eating taco bell while watching tv and sucking that corporate dong.

people like lulzsec just want attention and even skinnier wannabe script kids give it
 

punisher

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Zarathustra[H];1038462471 said:
You may not agree with their methods, or think that their methods are futile as I do, but they are trying to change the world in their own little way by fighting out against what they see as injustice.

...........and herein lies the problem. These kiddies have no idea what "injustice" is. They have never traveled, maybe never left their room for all I know. All they have as far as information is what they might have seen on TV (like how evil the US is), or read on some nameless site, and they act on that. Let them get a few years behind them, some life experience, and they might get that epiphany moment where they realize what a bunch of pathetic dumbasses they are, and their actions are doing more harm than good.
 

stevedave

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Why, didn't the Western Roman Empire at the end of the 3rd Century faced something like this and worse? Be thankful that American domestic and international trades are still intact, that barter has yet to occur widespread, local manufacturing en masse by individual American state isn't the trend...

Personally I'd rather this broken system collapse now then to continually plague the world. I'm not really a let our kids fix it type of person. The longer we continue this insanity the worse it will be when it collapses. It's not just American either the currencies of the world has been manipulated beyond control all over the world.
 

King of Heroes

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--commanded a loosely organized, international team of perhaps thousands hackers from his nerve center in a public housing project on New York’s Lower East Side.

This line had me falling out my chair laughing. I mean, seriously, its hilarious how they try so hard to make him sound so evil and cyber terrorist-like. Except it kind of falls on its face when you realize he's living out of the public welfare equivalent of his mom's basement.

“This is devastating to the organization,” said an FBI official involved with the investigation. “We’re chopping off the head of LulzSec.”

Wow. Great job there FBI. Really showing those script kiddies whose boss. Now why don't you go after something meaningful, like the foreign government-backed actual hackers who are a legitimate threat to our national security?
 

bh192012

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Personally I'd rather this broken system collapse now then to continually plague the world. I'm not really a let our kids fix it type of person. The longer we continue this insanity the worse it will be when it collapses. It's not just American either the currencies of the world has been manipulated beyond control all over the world.

What do you honestly think a "system collapse" would look like?
 

stevedave

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What do you honestly think a "system collapse" would look like?

No clue but probably similar to the Icelandic and Zimbabwe collapses.....just on an extremely larger scale as. But the larger the collapse the better if its just something small it doesn't flush out the corruption and policy that caused the problems. We need a full government and finical collapse that removes our current political system along with the current US dollar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2011_Icelandic_financial_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe
 

Zarathustra[H]

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No clue but probably similar to the Icelandic and Zimbabwe collapses.....just on an extremely larger scale as. But the larger the collapse the better if its just something small it doesn't flush out the corruption and policy that caused the problems. We need a full government and finical collapse that removes our current political system along with the current US dollar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2011_Icelandic_financial_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe

Not familliar with Zimbabwe, but I can assure you it would be nothing like Iceland.

No nation or groups of nations in the world would have the ability to bail us out if we fail.

Any economic collapse would be total destruction, Weimar Republic style, but probably worse.

 
D

Deleted member 126051

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They hack into companies as a joke not really doing any real damage.

Yeah. If you believe this, I've got a bridge to sell you.

The one guy? Jeremy Hammond?
What part of "Convicted credit card thief" doesn't instantly clarify the character of the people we're dealing with?

Sounds like they should be getting paid for finding security holes.

Penetration testers do this every day.
You do NOT pen-test networks that you haven't received permission to.
And they were doing more than "finding security holes".

You've got a nice, romantic notion in your head of these guys as modern-day Robin Hood analogues.

Sorry, but these guys are more "Sheriff of Nottingham". They don't give a shit about anything but their right to do whatever the hell they want, no matter who they harm.
 

Reimu

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Well, unlike Austria, where the League of Nations could send a special envoy (taxation tsar) when it became a mere country, or that of Newfoundland who the British could send a commissioner to secure credits and takeover in running the failed economy of the colony...


Keep in mind that the USD is the reserve currency of the world, so it cannot base itself on any other currency. It would be deeply troubling to consider basing on Euro, the Yen, the RMB or any other currency in the foreseeable future, while pegging it onto commodities such as Gold would be anachronism as it would not account for the growing real wealth of knowledge and innovation, which are the linchpin to the modern economy.

As the USA has no ally capable and trustworthy enough to sign its sovereignty away for any duration, and that no party in USA can accept political/fiscal reforms at the expense of national sovereignty, points only to the situation where the United States must form a domestic solution for itself.

That domestic solution can be anywhere from power hungry individuals vying for power, Augustus/Diocletian-esque consolidation power in the executive, legal code overhaul, military ventures or whatnot...
 

Adam12176

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It's kind of funny watching what Lulzsec/Anon did to companies. In a twisted way I'm all for the reform of how personal information is stored. It seems like personal information is the wild west when it comes to how it is stored.

It's funny because it's sad. If you argue that Lulz isn't well organized or capable, then are you more or less relieved at the damage that they were able to do? The implications are scary. This always felt like a sparring session - I've often wondered what would happen if you had a determined enemy instead of some softball script kiddies.

At least Lulzsec made some change happen. PSN isn't the gaping hole of security it once was. Shrug. It's not like you see legislation being passed to help secure your personal data.

If the group really is gone, the real laugh will be stealth Chinese hacks that no one wants to (or will) acknowledge until they absolutely have to. Lesser of two evils if you ask me. They have already proven they don't give a flying fuck about US threats over hacks.
 
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