Logi G9(x) vs. Old Optical Mouse frustrations!

syn0s

Gawd
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Jul 7, 2006
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OK, so I've wanted a gaming mouse for a while and I am a major fingertip grip/claw grip player. I'm fairly old school when it comes to PC gaming, dating back to Wolfenstein 3d, Doom, and I learned to KB/Mouse on Quake 1. I played that game for years and years, and most of the time I used low DPI optical mice, such as the Microsoft Wheel mouse or a low DPI Logitech simplistic mouse (don't exactly know the name, but it's even smaller than the WMO/Intellimouse and more "egg" shaped).

So, being used to older optical mice and lower DPi, I've never really had a problem with them in most FPS games. i wouldn't say I'm a "low sensitivity" gamer, but I'm definitely not a high sensitivity gamer (doing a 180 or 360 in game with a .5 or 1 inch wrist movement would drive me CRAZY). I have to "feel" my movements, which means I have to have a decently low sensitivity. I'd say my average 180 turnaround is usually at least 3-4 inches swipe.

Also, I like to "flick" my mouse and throw it around, making extremely quick and precise movements. The Microsoft WMO/intellimouse is such a lightweight mouse by default (lighter than a weight-less G9 by far) that it's easy to flick around and get incredibly accurate, so the weights included with the G9 are of no use really since it's already heavy enough IMHO.

Now that you know my mousing history, I really wanted to try a Logitech G9 (or x) due to it's additional buttons and all of the rave reviews I've heard about, plus it's designed for claw/fingertip grip styles. The macros in setpoint are awesome too, since I do occasionally play an MMO/other game that could benefit from that. The higher DPI and switchable DPI was also novel to me and I thought it could legitimately help my gameplay in some games.

That being said, I picked up a G9 brand new for a decent price (didn't wanna spend 2x for a G9x just in case I didn't like it) and I'm having some MAJOR FRUSTRATIONS with it.

First and foremost, I've found that the lift off distance (which wasn't really a factor I actually "thought about" in the past) is awful. It's easily twice that of my older wheel mouse optical (which is only 400dpi by the way). I've also noticed that when I'm lifting off/turning/setting the mouse back down, whenever I lift/set down I notice "jittery" movements of my crosshairs on screen. It's almost as if it's too sensitive at tracking when I lift/set down, and this is a major deal for FPS games which demand accuracy and quick movements.

I've tried using higher vs. lower DPI and raising/lowering the Windows sensitivity to no avail. I'm using a Steelseries QcK+ mouse mat, which is dark cloth and isn't really shiny/reflective. I like the smoothness it provides overall, but I've removed the QcK and tried the G9 on my desk (dark wood) and it's a tiny bit better but still horrible in comparison to my older cheapo $10 WMO.

That's my first gripe with it. My second issue is that I personally don't know what settings go better with certain games/profiles. For example, is it better to raise the windows sensitivity and lower the DPI? Or is it better to use the highest DPI possible and lower out the Windows control panel sensitivity?

On top of that, there's a checkbox in the setpoint software for "use Windows drivers/acceleration." Is this recommended or not? I've seen very little difference when switching it, although sometimes it can make a larger difference. For example, in Battlefield 3, I had the mouse settings configured in a way where checking that box provided a quicker/higher sensitivity like I was used to with the WMO, however when I UNCHECK the box and use the Setpoint drivers, the sensitivity drops to way too low.

Add on top of that the fact that some games have "raw mouse input: on/off" options, like BF3. Now things are just starting to get TOO complex! What's the best configuration?!?

Any insight towards making this thing more accurate/lower lift off distance would be highly appreciated!

I also found an article (I hope external linking is allowed here) explaining that Laser mice/DPI/etc. is all just marketing hype, and that a lot of FPS professionals use 400-800 DPI optical cheapo mice. After using the G9 I'm starting to think they are right. the article is here (and a good read if you get a chance) -

http://defragdev.com/blog/?p=631

That being said, I was possibly thinking of selling the G9 and going with something like a coolermaster spawn, which is a claw/fingertip mouse only it uses a fairly good optical engine and has 3 switchable DPIs also. I realize it should just be about comfort to me, so perhaps I should just keep using my WMO, but I'd like to take advantage of some of the features these newer mice offer without giving up my hard-coded and engrained mentality that I'm so adept with. It wouldn't be worth trying to adapt in my opinion and I'll just stick with my old WMO if it really comes down to it.

Another fun side note - in Battlefield 3, I noticed if I turn up the in game sensitivity to a decent amount, then aim down my sights, if I make very very tiny precise movements it's extremely choppy! However, if I lower the sensitivity to an extremely low value, then aim down sights, the movement is really quite smooth. I'm guessing this is because it's a console port or just crappy mouse integration by DICE/EA, since other FPS games are super smooth even with high in game sensitivity and my 400dpi cheapo mouse. The Logi G9 with a High DPI actually has an advantage here, because I can still get the medium sensitivity that I want by upping the DPI, but keep the in game sensitivity super low, which makes the small aim-down-sights movements extremely precise. If I use my 400dpi WMO, I am forced to turn up the in game sensitivity, and my tiny precise movements will always be a bit choppier and a bit harder to aim. It's a fairly common issue too, and I'm not the only person who has noticed it (Google will show you forum threads with others admitting the same problem.)

So, after this long post, what do you guys think overall? Is it worth ditching the G9 and sticking with the WMO? I've tried playing with it for HOURS - low DPI, High DPI, low/high windows sensitivity, mouse polling rates, etc. and I just can't find a comfortable setting due to that lift off height and the jittery crosshair movement!
 

thesecond

[H]ard|Gawd
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For optimal results:

In windows. 6/11 sensitivity, "enhance pointer precision OFF"
In setpoint: set accelleration to 0, set dpi levels to wherever you want them.
In BF3: set raw mouse input to "on". Set mouse sensitivity to low (mines around 30%).

This will make it more smooth.

Also, the jittering when you lift is from not lifing the mouse high enough. Sorry but the distance is like 7-8 mm give or take. You just have to lift it higher. The reason your aiming is jittery on high windows sensitivity is because it causes software interpolation which does some crazy things. The best way to test smoothness of your mouse is to try to draw circles and waves in MSpaint at different sensitivities. You'll notice with higher windows sensitivity that the circles and waves will not have any diagonal lines, but be made of lots of tiny right angles.
 

SoFGR

[H]ard|Gawd
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If you're anal about lift off distance then check out zowie's range of mice, they all sport a custom lens that reduces the effective LOD right down to 2.0-1.5mm , personally i already use a zowie EC2 at the living room and a a rebranded intellimouse optical 1.1 w at work(aka zowie IO1.1G black ), i also have a zowie AM waiting me for in the mailbox, it should feel pretty much like a IMO 1.1 on steroids, can't wait to return back home and try it actually :D
 

NickJames

Supreme [H]ardness
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Apr 28, 2009
Messages
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I play between 3600-5200 DPI and my ingame sensitivity is usually above 5 or 6 in Counter-Strike. Sure most pros play at 400 DPI but they also have 3 ft wide mousepads and a 30 inch screen. I just stuck with high sens small space mice my entire life and it's the way I play, and I play great.
 

Ritorix

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Do everything thesecond said.

Since you asked about the Spawn. It has the best shape of any mouse, IMO. It has three firmwares available, one of which gets it down to a ~1mm liftoff distance. Very low. There are side effects though: the Spawn has a low PCS (perfect control speed, the velocity you can move it and still get accurate results). If you are a low sens player you will run into that and its super annoying. My 180 swipe is about 7 inches and its a problem. It also wants a black cloth mousepad, and performs worse on others (LOD is worse, PCS is worse).

I have a drawer full of abandoned mice (deathadder, g9x, spawn, mx518, IMOs) and I'm just using an Abyssus now, mostly for COD. When I start playing TOR obsessively I will probably switch back to the Spawn, the extra buttons are nice to have for MMOs and you dont need high PCS. The g9 is a goddamn brick, i cant imagine trying to play low sens with it for any period of time. Spawn is very light, abyssus lighter still.
 

syn0s

Gawd
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Messages
627
Thanks for the comments guys.. I've been looking into some other mice and reading around [H] and other forums and there's quite a bit of info out there. Guess I should've done my research before jumping on the G9!

I'll definitely check out the Spawn/Xornet from CM, Zowie mice and maybe even a Thermaltake eSports mouse, since they all seem to be claw/fingertip oriented and optical based.

EDIT: Regarding BF3 and thesecond's comments, if I leave my Windows slider at 6/11, my DPI needs to be fairly low or else my mouse cursor is far too sensitive. Thus, I'll be using 400-800 DPI, which wont be optimal. Also, even an in game BF3 sensitivity of around 30% will still give me slightly choppy minor mouse movements when aiming down sight.. I've noticed it needs to be about 20% or lower to avoid it.

Also, I'll be missing out on the higher DPI, which I thought was a benefit overall? I was under the impression using a higher DPI + lower Windows sensitivity and lower in game sensitivity would be more optimal, however when adjusting DPI it really just feels like it's adjust sensitivity to me and not really anything else...
 

Ritorix

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Also, I'll be missing out on the higher DPI, which I thought was a benefit overall? I was under the impression using a higher DPI + lower Windows sensitivity and lower in game sensitivity would be more optimal, however when adjusting DPI it really just feels like it's adjust sensitivity to me and not really anything else...

DPI is mostly just marketing. You didnt mention what res you game at, but unless its triple-monitor it probably wont matter. But heres how to set things up:

First set your windows to 6/11 and everything mentioned above.

Then set your mouse DPI to a number that feels good on the windows desktop. I use 1800; I dont want to do full swipes to launch apps on my desktop. :p

Then set your in-game sensitivity to your desired speed. If the slider doesnt go low enough, dive into the .ini file and set a lower sens.
 

thesecond

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Do everything thesecond said.

Since you asked about the Spawn. It has the best shape of any mouse, IMO. It has three firmwares available, one of which gets it down to a ~1mm liftoff distance. Very low. There are side effects though: the Spawn has a low PCS (perfect control speed, the velocity you can move it and still get accurate results). If you are a low sens player you will run into that and its super annoying. My 180 swipe is about 7 inches and its a problem. It also wants a black cloth mousepad, and performs worse on others (LOD is worse, PCS is worse).

I have a drawer full of abandoned mice (deathadder, g9x, spawn, mx518, IMOs) and I'm just using an Abyssus now, mostly for COD. When I start playing TOR obsessively I will probably switch back to the Spawn, the extra buttons are nice to have for MMOs and you dont need high PCS. The g9 is a goddamn brick, i cant imagine trying to play low sens with it for any period of time. Spawn is very light, abyssus lighter still.

i agree, the g9x is a brick. i play at 400dpi and my arm is thickening up like mad. That, and hurting constantly =/

Also, I'll be missing out on the higher DPI, which I thought was a benefit overall? I was under the impression using a higher DPI + lower Windows sensitivity and lower in game sensitivity would be more optimal, however when adjusting DPI it really just feels like it's adjust sensitivity to me and not really anything else...

as said before, DPI is marketing. It doesnt tell you "sensitivity" as much as it tells you "this is how far i'll pitch your cursor across your screen if you move me 1 mm on your mouse pad". Precision is measured more so by the polling rate and the ability of your mouse to gather accurate pictures of where it's moving. DPI is literally just how far your mouse will move your cursor on your screen in relation to how far you move it on your pad.
 

ThinJ

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Jan 20, 2007
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Everything Ritorix says about the Spawn is true. It's easily the best shaped mouse out there for fingertip/claw grippers.

I use mine with the default firmware, but I don't often pick the mouse up and when I do I don't have any issues with it jittering or whatever. Whether that bothers you depends heavily on the way you hold/pick up/use your mouse.

I can confirm that the other firmwares behave exactly as he says. They work exactly the way they're supposed to on my Steelseries SX and on my Razer Goliathus, but they error out constantly on my older Steelpad 5D and my C4 NGen pads, both of which use nonstandard colors and pattersn. The NGen is bright orange and the Steelpad is varying shades of blue and green.

I'm still using mine for general desktop use and certain games like Starcraft 2.

But I do still use my Razer Deathadder for FPS games. I find that I use the mouse differently depending on the game I'm playing, weird though that may be. I just leave both hooked up all the time. Hasn't caused me any problems so far.

CM Storm also has the Xornet out that uses the same shape and design as the Spawn but with a slightly different model of optical sensor with some different charcteristics. I haven't heard much about it yet in the way of reviews so I can't say one way or the other whether it has any odd characteristics, but it's another alternative you could try. It's also super cheap. Like $27 on Amazon right now.
 

SoFGR

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xornet has terrible tracking at its current firmware state, LOD is pretty high and skips very easily on dark colored surfaces, sensor is also a bit off center which is considered as a con by some users.

My zowie AM seems to be fine except the annoying side buttons on the right side of the mouse, haven't had a chance to game yet, i'll have to wait until monday
 
Last edited:

Ritorix

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Speaking of Spawn vs Abyssus, I just made myself an "Abyssus Black Edition". That LED got annoying. :p

gxjcP.jpg
 
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