Linux Who? Windows Still King of the Desktop

[Snowdog]

Most Linux Desktop Users don't care about marketshare. Never have.

Sure they don't.

After 20+ years of failure to make desktop gains, we get sour grapes and deflections. Market share doesn't matter (Sour grapes, as market share leads to MUCH better developer support), or Android is Linux (Irrelevant deflection, since this is about desktop, not phones).

 

[ChadD]

As a Gentoo user that frequently mixes Gnome and KDE applications, I'm going to have to request source for this statement.

Do a Clean install and pick one Gnome or KDE. Don't install any libraries from the one you didn't install.

Then go and download something that uses the Libs from the one you didn't install and let me know how much fun you have.

Now I will admit I have yet to play around with Gentoo at this point... I have been meaning to dedicate a free weekend to trying it out as I never have. I am going to bet Portage won't let you run into any issues of course.... I assume like most every other modern Linux package manager it would automatically build/install any needed Libs you don't already have.

The point still stands though. Linux is Linux... that doesn't mean that every piece of "linux" software is going to run on every desktop enviro or even distro if a distro is shipping with older Libraries then a APP is expecting or something. https://api.kde.org/4.x-api/kdelibs-apidocs/ KDE has the kdelibs and sure you can run APPS using the kdelibs under Gnome and a good many other Desktops... assuming you have them installed. (If you look at a specific KDE program like say kftpgrabber or something... am sure Portage will have some sort of list of required dependencies one of which is likely the kde-runtime and things like libkdecore5 the KDE core. Like most package managers it will likely auto build and install those Libs if there not already on your system... without them the software won't run.)

This also points to one other way Linux has grown up... without exception every major distros package manager won't let you install software without ensuring you have the APIs/Libs installed to run that software. For windows users think of it as games that ship with a DirectX redistributable... the software developer does that to ensure the proper libraries are there to run the software. Linux package managers all do that for end users these days... the days of running into issues with software installed from a package manager are pretty much completely gone.

 

[heatlesssun]

The point still stands though. Linux is Linux...

And desktop Linux isn't Android.

 

[ChadD]

And desktop Linux isn't Android.

Android is still 100% Linux heatle. I know you don't get it and that's ok. "Desktop" is a stupid term and I don't accept it anymore which is why I pay no attention to the stupid click counting sites that get paid selling data and have an interests in ensuring things like Chromebooks aren't counted when selling that data.

Android is Linux. Just like a server distro with no UI at all is still Linux. If it runs the kernel its Linux period. It doesn't matter what hardware its running on or what UI is being used.

 

[heatlesssun]

Android is still 100% Linux heatle. I know you don't get it and that's ok.

I get it totally. Windows 10 mobile is basically 100% Windows 10, it's almost a proper subset these days. But Windows 10 isn't Windows 10 mobile.

"Desktop" is a stupid term and I don't accept it anymore

You might think it's stupid but how often do people upgrade GPU or CPU in their phones? Or connect them to an external mice, keyboards or multiple monitors. But you do have something of a point, I expect convergence to become a bigger deal, like with the S8 adding desktop like capabilities.

 

[ChadD]

If that's the case, then OSX, iOS, and PS4 = FreeBSD. FreeBSD FTW!!!!

Well yes in fact OSX is using a BSD kernel. It is one of the main reasons macs have been very popular with programmers for years. As I understand it many are shifting the last few years to Linux, as I think Apple has made a few unpopular changes for that crowd. Still yes MacOS one reason you used to (and still often do) see so many Macs on University and Collage computer science campuses is because they are running a kernel BSD.

As for the PS4 yes it is 100% BSD.... just like Android is 100% Linux. They both run the open source kernel with closed sources APIs and stores. In the case of the PS4 that would be GNM and GNMX.

The main advantage to open source kernels like Linux and FreeBSD is companies like Sony and Apple can take all that core work and build on it. Still protecting their closed ecosystems UI work and specific use enhancements (like the hands down best 3D API in the world GNMX). When the open source projects improve the kernels those companies can fold those changes into their own systems.

Its the main reason I always say MS will HAVE to at some point change their kernel. They can't continue developing windows as a closed/closed OS. The amount of $ being spent on Linux kernel development is just to great for them to ever hope to keep up. Its why they have been loosing so badly in the server markets for years... and at some point it will catch up with them in the consumer device space as well. (you could argue that has already happened with them pretty much being completely chased out of the mobile space already). Still they could go Open/Closed like EVERYONE else and use the same Linux or BSD core... and just like everyone else still run a 100% closed source desktop UI / Store. It would save them a ton of money in the long run and give them a better product... they could also produce a real honestly compelling version of Windows Server that would integrate into all the current Linux / BSD servers in the world. Dumping the Windows kernel for either a BSD or Linux kernel would solve almost every issue they currently have.

 

[ChadD]

You might think it's stupid but how often do people upgrade GPU or CPU in their phones? Or connect them to an external mice, keyboards or multiple monitors. But you do have something of a point, I expect convergence to become a bigger deal, like with the S8 adding desktop like capabilities.

I think we are mostly agreeing then. Don't get me wrong I argue strongly that its time to stop using the word desktop... still right now today its not hard to point to a mouse and say there that's the difference. lol My point is lots of these "net click" research companies have motives for not including newer devices like chrome books into their numbers... cause they are selling larger more detailed versions of that data to companies that don't honestly want to hear about those devices. Anyone that has dealt with any larger company knows they like to put their fingers in their ears, and those "research" companies don't wanna rock the boat most of the time, they are bad for just telling their clients what they want to hear to get paid.

MS themselves have tried the plug your phone into your monitor stuff. Samsung is now going to give it a go. This may or may not be the start of a major change... but I think we agree that change is coming. Yes some of us are still going to want high end GPUs and CPUs for not just games but 3D design and a ton of different OpenCL uses. For the average users though which are the masses we all think about as "desktop" users right now... ya if its not this year or the one after the end of the desktop in that market isn't all that far off. MS themselves know that, its the thinking behind cloud based office packages ect. They don't want the platform your using to matter much cause who knows... it may be android it may be apple it may (and yes not likely) be a traditional Linux desktop, or it may end up being some new WinDroid MS themselves put out. Heck even if a company pushes and sells a ton of smart TVs with keyboards and air mice. MS is ready for that.

 

[zero2dash]

gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8
Did I do it right?

Happy dual booting Ubuntu MATE with Win7. MATE for everything other than Steam games not ported yet, and being on SSD and rebooting to switch OS is practically effortless and ridiculously fast.

Everyone else can continue bickering about 10 for all I care, thanks to the ignore list.

 

[naib]

Do a Clean install and pick one Gnome or KDE. Don't install any libraries from the one you didn't install.

Then go and download something that uses the Libs from the one you didn't install and let me know how much fun you have.

Lots of fun because portage does its job.
If i have emerge gnome and then emerge koffice... Portage would resolve the needed dependencies and it would just work ... I use open box on gentoo and i have applications that expect the other desktop that work... It's dependancy management

 

[ChadD]

Lots of fun because portage does its job.
If i have emerge gnome and then emerge koffice... Portage would resolve the needed dependencies and it would just work ... I use open box on gentoo and i have applications that expect the other desktop that work... It's dependancy management

Exactly I have heard great things about Gentoo and portage I keep meaning to give it a run through and put it off.

Dependency management is one of the biggest strengths of modern Linux. I can't think of any major or even minor distro anymore that doesn't do a great job with dependencies. IMO its the biggest area of improvement in regards to everyday use for everyday computer users Linux has enjoyed the last few years. The days of having to manually install Libs or recompile stuff in major distros to get even obscure software packages to run properly are long gone.

I run Arch and arch derived distros pretty often when I am not installing cent or suse for clients. Archs pacman works a lot like portage as I understand it build stuff from source, not everything perhaps like Gentoo does but most things anyway. One of the things I love about arch is being able to edit install dependencies if needed, and get dirty in the install scripts and such. Next time I have a few days off in a row for sure going to have to mess with gentoo... it seems everytime I mean to sit down and do it something comes up.

 

[Doward]

Do a Clean install and pick one Gnome or KDE. Don't install any libraries from the one you didn't install.

Then go and download something that uses the Libs from the one you didn't install and let me know how much fun you have.

Well, considering any package manager I can think of (portage, apt, dnf, yum) will also pull in those needed libraries, I don't see an issue here?

The days of dependency hell are largely behind Linux Desktops these days, unless you're trying to build some one-off app from scratch.

I believe it disingenuous to say that Gnome and KDE can't be used together. At one point I had E17, Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, and XFCE installed on a single box just playing with them to determine which one I liked.

I ended up sticking with KDE

*Edit*
Ignore the above, I see you already responded earlier LMAO

*Edit2*
portage is amazingly powerful. Want to use GTK instead of QT where available? Set a GTK use flag, and you not only build all your apps from source, but you build them with the global flags you set.

I use Gentoo, because I believe I, the user, should control what my system does. Not the other way around

 

[ChadD]

I believe it disingenuous to say that Gnome and KDE can't be used together. At one point I had E17, Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, and XFCE installed on a single box just playing with them to determine which one I liked.

That wasn't really the point I was making. Of course you can use Gnome and KDE on a system... but KDE software use KDE libs if you try and run KDE software in Gnome you HAVE to install the KDE libraries. Yes of course every modern package manger does that for a user without them having to even know that's what its doing.

The windwos folks where arguing that Android isn't Linux because it won't just run any Linux software... and a Linux distro won't just run any Android software there fore android can't be Linux was their argument.

I was pointing out that Linux is an OS that has multiple desktop UIs... and in order to run software that is using Libraries or APIs from a different UI or specific distro you have to install them. The Linux "android" emulators that where mentioned are more like Library/API packs that handle all the ARM and google API calls. Just like running KDE software in Gnome requires installing the KDE core libraries for the software to use. There are ARM compiled Kernel versions of full on Linux (and PowerPC, Sparc and others) as well software compiled for those won't run on a x86 compiled distro without some form of translation library... that hardly means that the ARM compiled kernel isn't still Linux.

The issues with running Android apps on a Linux computer has more to do with the Hardware they are aimed at and thus the Libs the software is using. Most Andorid apps can be recompiled for a X86 Linux system in many cases by simply changing a few file headers and recompiling them as is.

So anyway no I was not saying you can't run KDE or GNOME software on the other... just that you do have to install the libraries from the one the software expects for it to work. Which is exactly the same issue with running Android apps in a standard Linux distro... it needs to proper libraries and apis installed, and a translation library for arm->x86. This is exactly what was added to the Chrome OS recently to give it Android app capabilities... Google added the Android Libraries to ChromeOS and a translation Library for ARM->x86 which only needs to be used if its an X86 chromebook of course. ChromeOS and Android are both Linux distros.

EDIT Glad you love Gentoo... I have said it enough that I really do have to make it my next weekend project. I run Arch for the same reasons but have heard lots of great stuff about gentoo.

 

[heatlesssun]

The windwos folks where arguing that Android isn't Linux because it won't just run any Linux software... and a Linux distro won't just run any Android software there fore android can't be Linux was their argument.

Android is no more desktop Linux than Windows mobile is desktop Windows. Of course there things in common in basic architecture like the kernel but a kernel isn't the OS. DE incompatibilities are above the kernel layer.

 

[auntjemima]

I use Gentoo, because I believe I, the user, should control what my system does. Not the other way around

But... But.... Why pick gentoo specifically? The Linux crowd would have you believe all versions allow you to control the system, not the other way around.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Fuzzy Logik]

Linux is like dating the ugly sister... you want to bang her much hotter Mac OS sister but you know you don't really have the bankroll to pick her up.

 

[Doward]

But... But.... Why pick gentoo specifically? The Linux crowd would have you believe all versions allow you to control the system, not the other way around.

Care to elaborate?

Install Debian - pull ffmpeg. What flags was it built with?

Install Fedora - pull ffmpeg. What flags was it built with?

Install Gentoo - pull ffmpeg. You know what flags it was built with when you bring it in

In my experience, pre-built binaries try to cover a wide variety of 'common usage' scenarios. Anything deviating from that in any way is "pull the source and build it yourself". Portage is simply an automatic "Pull the source and built it yourself" ALL the time.

Also, as a software dev, I like being able to alter source code as needed and install just what I need. I don't like extra flags (ie I don't need LAME support, so why do I have it at all?) when not needed

I've used many variations of Linux desktop since the FC3 days (Fedora was my first), and ended up going all the way down the rabbit hole to LFS. Then I realized that Gentoo is LFS with all kinds of tooling built for me already. And I've stuck there since

 

[WorldExclusive]

Linux in my PC? Never

Linux - When tweaking your OS is more important than using it.

 

[ChadD]

Linux is like dating the ugly sister... you want to bang her much hotter Mac OS sister but you know you don't really have the bankroll to pick her up.

Well in fairness in your analogy Mac OS would be more like the hot second or third cousin. lol

 

[ChadD]

But... But.... Why pick gentoo specifically? The Linux crowd would have you believe all versions allow you to control the system, not the other way around.

Care to elaborate?

Most distributions have well kept package managers that download software and all the libraries ect that are needed to run that software. In most cases these are all pre built, much like downloading an EXE file from a company offering windows software.... only if windows worked the same as a Linux package manager it wouldl decide if you had the proper .DLL files or version of Java or DX or any other API needed for that software and install or update it for you automagikly. (still telling you what it was doing)

In the case of Gentoo their software repository doesn't keep compiled software ready to be downloaded. It keeps the code for all that software instead. So the package manager gets the code you need with compile scripts which if you are inclined and know what you are doing you can tailor and customize. Its a level of control most people don't need and those that do don't often need it for everything. For the most part you can just ignore that stuff and leave the defaults be... but the option to be more hands on is there. Arch is another distro that follows the same path with its repository most containing code over binaries. It allows you to custom optimize specific parts of your system or software.

Yes every distro allows you to mix and match components and build very customized systems. Distros like Gentoo and Arch just take it to another level and allow you to more easily build from code your entire system. Neither would be a distro I would install for grandma or the guy next door who just wants to watch netflix and hide his browser history from the wife. If you talk to developer types that use Linux... Arch and Gentoo are both very popular.

 

[ChadD]

Android is no more desktop Linux than Windows mobile is desktop Windows. Of course there things in common in basic architecture like the kernel but a kernel isn't the OS. DE incompatibilities are above the kernel layer.

Of course things aren't perfectly interchangable heatle. One version of the kernel is compiled to run on ARM based phone hardware the other on Bios based PCs. One uses (depending on the distro) a version of GNU. Which is why the correct term for the "desktop" distros really is GNU/Linux.

I have been trying not to sound like a complete neck beard type. But what is confusing you is the term Linux. GNU/Linux = Desktop as you would know it. This involves the a front end based on some version of the GNU project. Running on top of Linux (the kernel).

The Android project replaced the GNU front end with java based tools that work better with phone hardware and the low memory/storage ARM based hardware most run on. There are other examples of Linux being used in more dedicated function devices like routers / web servers / embedded devices ect. They don't have a GNU system or they run a scaled down version but they are still running Linux. The kernel is the system... it includes all the device drivers and file system deamons ect.

People that don't know better think of Linux as this big huge OS. Linus back in 1991 didn't create a massive OS with a GUI... he created the first version of the kernel in 1991. People then used it to power their GNU (which was founded in 1984) desktop systems, where as before they would often be running much more unweildly less PC friendly unix based kernels. Programmers understand that Linux means Kernel... that is what Linux is, most lay people don't understand that.

No Android isn't GNU/Linux... but it is 100% linux and everything that makes Linux Linux is part of android. If I am in the root of your android device I know what I'm looking at its a Linux system right down to the file system and directory structure being used. Where things will be different will be the top end GNU stuff, in the case of android its running a java based front end over the GNU based front ends you see in most "desktop x86" linux distros. (its why to get android stuff working on GNU/Linux involves replicating or adding that java frontend... and also why it would be very hard to get desktop Linux software running in Android as its missing Binutils, Coreutils and a few other GNU things, although it is easier with ChromeOS it still isn't a full GNU distro but ChromeOS does have some of the needed tools that make it easier to recompile a lot of GNU software)

At its core its the Linux kernel custom compiled for the hardware in question by the manufacturer, there is no need to compile 100s of Kbs of drivers for all the hardware options in the current kernel they compile a lean mean version for their specific hardware. In general most manufacturers use the standard EXT4 Linux file system and directory structure, although they are free to use any file system the Kernel can read and write to. As an end user if the manufacturer didn't compile support into the kernel it won't work... but I have heard of some people messing with recompiling their own rooted android devices Linux kernels to toggle flags for things like BtrFS with no issues.

 

[heatlesssun]

Of course things aren't perfectly interchangable heatle. One version of the kernel is compiled to run on ARM based phone hardware the other on Bios based PCs. One uses (depending on the distro) a version of GNU. Which is why the correct term for the "desktop" distros really is GNU/Linux.

On version is designed pretty much to run on resource constrained devices, the other not. So 0% app compatibly for very different uses. Not the same at all unless a kernel is all that people require of their phones and PCs.

 

[ChadD]

On version is designed pretty much to run on resource constrained devices, the other not. So 0% app compatibly for very different uses. Not the same at all unless a kernel is all that people require of their phones and PCs.

Never stated a phone was by itself a laptop or desktop or smart tv... I stated that Android is a Linux system. Which is 100% true.

At this point in the world software doesn't have to be interchangeable. However if you want your marketplace in your closed system to explode the best way to go about that is to create a system that doesn't require developers to re write everything.

MS knows this which is why they are pushing UWP. They want developers to be able to easily recompile their software for X or Y windows device.

Android already enjoys this and its why it exploded with developers. Google built android on Java (which programmers already knew and had tons of code for) running on the Linux kernel (which programmers and manufacturers already knew and had tons of code for). Put the two together and you have an app and device explosion.

GNU Linux doesn't get a ton of support for plenty of reasons heatle... we have argued them up and down. That isn't to say that android software couldn't be recompiled to run on Linux though. It could be done very easily. When it comes to games again there is little stopping developers from supporting Linux... they all support Sonys PS4 which runs a BSD kernel. Its why Linux people get excited (perhaps more then they should) about Vulcan. If Sony where to embrace Vulcan it would mean big things for Linux possibly... as it is the AAA game community is pretty well in love with GNMX as their first choice API and it has hurt not just Linux but MS and the Xbox as well. So it is pretty hard to blame Sony for not jumping on Vulcan very fast... their closed API is killing it and if they do chase MS out of the console wars GNMX will have been their biggest weapon.

 

[heatlesssun]

Never stated a phone was by itself a laptop or desktop or smart tv... I stated that Android is a Linux system. Which is 100% true.

Yes, no one said otherwise. Android is not DESKTOP Linux in any way shape or form from the end user standpoint. Counting Android deployments as Linux deployments means nothing practically speaking. No one wanting a Linux desktop or laptop gets an Android phone to fill that need and vice versa.

 

[ChadD]

Yes, no one said otherwise. Android is not DESKTOP Linux in any way shape or form from the end user standpoint. Counting Android deployments as Linux deployments means nothing practically speaking. No one wanting a Linux desktop or laptop gets an Android phone to fill that need and vice versa.

You have a point there for sure. Then again no one buying a desktop gets counted as a linux users. MS ships on anything prebuilt and all.. heck even when buying parts people get cheap OEM copies of windows pushed on them. The net research numbers are always suspect for a bunch of reasons and the main one is they pick and choose which devices they want to count as X or Y... some of the choices they make when you read their fine print make it obvious they have motives that involve their sales more then accuracy.

The reason I like to reinforce that Android is Linux is... as I think we have both agreed the future isn't in the desktop. For the masses the future is in convergence devices and at this point all the future sales in that area seem to be heading in the direction of Linux. (sorry Google/Linux) lol

It doesn't mean much to us neck beard types as you know... we can root and put GNU Linux on pretty much all these devices when the time comes.

Going back to this article the only reason I mention it... is as I said a few pages back. These net research companies that just count clicks mostly just tell their clients what they want to hear. They discount data they don't like... or group devices their client doesn't want to think about in other catagories right or wrong. For everyone of these that shows X or Y = 70% of the market... another one that looks at the numbers just a bit different will say the opposite. If I run one of this companies and want to sell data to a specific company.... all I have to do is make sure of the 100 sites I am counting 20-30 of them are going to return what I want my data to say. If I want to sell data to Apple... if I skew my site count to include a few mac hardware sites instantly I can pop the MacOS hits up a few points for sure. If I want to show Linux is doing well I can include a couple cherry picked developer hangout sites like slashdot or phoronix and all of a sudden Linux would get a double digit bump depending how many total sites I was counting. These net research data sites are all BS.

 

[heatlesssun]

The reason I like to reinforce that Android is Linux is... as I think we have both agreed the future isn't in the desktop. For the masses the future is in convergence devices and at this point all the future sales in that area seem to be heading in the direction of Linux. (sorry Google/Linux) lol

The future isn't the desktop but the desktop has a future otherwise there'd be no point in convergence devices.

Going back to this article the only reason I mention it... is as I said a few pages back. These net research companies that just count clicks mostly just tell their clients what they want to hear. They discount data they don't like... or group devices their client doesn't want to think about in other catagories right or wrong. For everyone of these that shows X or Y = 70% of the market... another one that looks at the numbers just a bit different will say the opposite. If I run one of this companies and want to sell data to a specific company.... all I have to do is make sure of the 100 sites I am counting 20-30 of them are going to return what I want my data to say. If I want to sell data to Apple... if I skew my site count to include a few mac hardware sites instantly I can pop the MacOS hits up a few points for sure. If I want to show Linux is doing well I can include a couple cherry picked developer hangout sites like slashdot or phoronix and all of a sudden Linux would get a double digit bump depending how many total sites I was counting. These net research data sites are all BS.

Pro desktop Linux overthink it too much. A thing a lot of people like to do on their PCs is run programs. Some people a lot like people into gaming. Windows simply has bar far the best desktop library there is. And that's why Windows is pre-loaded on the overwhelming majority of retail PCs.

 

[schoolslave]

...
The Android project replaced the GNU front end with java based tools that work better with phone hardware and the low memory/storage ARM based hardware most run on. There are other examples of Linux being used in more dedicated function devices like routers / web servers / embedded devices ect. They don't have a GNU system or they run a scaled down version but they are still running Linux. The kernel is the system... it includes all the device drivers and file system deamons ect.
...

Wat

 

[ChadD]

Wat

Ok Java inspired... yes the ART does not execute Java code.

I guess google people have been depositioned by Sun for being loose with the wording. lol

 

[ChadD]

Pro desktop Linux overthink it too much. A thing a lot of people like to do on their PCs is run programs. Some people a lot like people into gaming. Windows simply
has bar far the best desktop library there is. And that's why Windows is pre-loaded on the overwhelming majority of retail PCs.

I think you overestimate the masses love of windows. Clearly windows isn't as universally loved as you believe or Windows mobile would have taken off.... things like UWP should have meant MS mobile domination in short order if users and developers felt as you do.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think you overestimate the masses love of windows. Clearly windows isn't as universally loved as you believe or Windows mobile would have taken off.... things like UWP should have meant MS mobile domination in short order if users and developers felt as you do.

People don't love operating systems, they love the things they can do with them. I love PC gaming and PC hardware. If you're into those things Windows is a natural fit. This is where desktop Linux folks seem to have a disconnect. I've lost count of how many times I've said that if Linux had the ecosystem or even remotely close to that of Windows, I'd have no problem using it. But there's no point in using something that lacks so much support for the things I use my PCs for.

 

[ChadD]

People don't love operating systems, they love the things they can do with them. I love PC gaming and PC hardware. If you're into those things Windows is a natural fit. This is where desktop Linux folks seem to have a disconnect. I've lost count of how many times I've said that if Linux had the ecosystem or even remotely close to that of Windows, I'd have no problem using it. But there's no point in using something that lacks so much support for the things I use my PCs for.

Not at all... I have told you plenty of times Heatle stick to your Windows man.

Some of us keep a Win 7 drive around for games... sure cause for now its the best option for a handful of games. Yes as much as I advocate for Linux I keep a Windows 7 drive around for games. No one is really arguing that windows isn't better for AAA games. Linux is getting better in regard to games, but sure its still behind. For myself my use in terms of games is likely 80/20 or so I do mostly game in Linux... still I understand for some people that must have the latest PS4/Xbox/PC release on their PC windows is the best option right now.

As I have often stated.... stop assuming your use case is common to everyone that owns a PC cause its not. For a large % of average users in the world Android / Chrome is not only all they need, they infact prefer its simplicity over Windows. For developers they often prefer a system using a Linux or BSD kernel which is why MacOS Linux and the BSD based OSs have most of their support from those groups. For 3D artists Linux is by far the widest used OS, and for artist in general Windows has been loosing a lot of ground the last few years. Apple lost their lead in that market years ago... and have been recently picking it back up. Linux has also started eating into that market as more and more Smaller VFX companies have followed the lead of the larger VFX companies and moved to Linux. (it helps that a lot of the big VFX companies like Pixar have been open sourcing their previously closed source tools).

The only USE case where I can't argue with you that at this point Windows has a clear use advantage is playing AAA console port games. (yes I am ribbing you some more... but admit it already most games are coded for GNMX and PS4 first lol)

I agrue with you not because I doubt Windows is best for you... I argue because you assume everyone has the same useage as you. That games are the only use case that matters to people buying desktops. Sure the Gaming PC is a big market... but its hardly the only reason to buy a high end CPU or GPU, and outside of games you simply can't argue that windows is the absolute best option.

 

[heatlesssun]

I agrue with you not because I doubt Windows is best for you... I argue because you assume everyone has the same useage as you. That games are the only use case that matters to people buying desktops. Sure the Gaming PC is a big market... but its hardly the only reason to buy a high end CPU or GPU, and outside of games you simply can't argue that windows is the absolute best option.

I've never thought that everyone had the same use for PCs as me. But this is what I'm talking about:

Non-VR Linux games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 268

VR Linux games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 2

Windows VR games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 278

Non-VR All Windows games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 1326

Linux Total - 270
Windows Total - 1604

As of 04/05/2017 1:04 AM

Yeah this is just games but is indicative of the fundamental problem of desktop Linux. The support just isn't there compared to Windows or even macOS for that matter. And it never will be without a tons more users.

 

[ChadD]

Yeah this is just games but is indicative of the fundamental problem of desktop Linux. The support just isn't there compared to Windows or even macOS for that matter. And it never will be without a tons more users.

Again you go back to games. Games are not the only thing people do with their personal computers heat. You can go on on about support all you like the fact is all you ever do is point to games. Average users they are fine with Google/Linux... and it has MS employees such as yourself scared. Its ok man there are lots of companies supporting Android that I'm sure will hire you when the time comes. I joke. Seriously though I just said I agree with you Windows is a better AAA gaming platform... you won that argument. I still won't be running windows as my main driver cause gaming is just a small part of what I use my computer for. GNU/Linux is never going to be #1... yes I know that as do most other Linux boosters.

Bringing this back to the thread Google/Linux is already the worlds #1 OS according to a different net click research pull... and all the selective "desktop" numbers that these companies pull out of their backsides showing windows with X% of desktop usage are complete BS.

So yes the year of the Linux "desktop" will never happen and us Internet forum Linux boosters have lost. Of course it was always the wrong question. The correct question is when is the Linux computing year going to happen... well considering Google/Linux has displaced Windows now as the worlds #1 used OS, I guess 2017 is the answer.

The MS death spiral has already started heatle... no windows won't vanish anytime soon. Still it started with them getting pushed out of the mobile market... now they are starting to be pushed out of the traditional laptop market, and its only a matter of time before convergence starts really pushing desktop sales. I would still bet on Google pushing ChromeOS into that market, even if they don't MS still seems headed to being relegated to a niche market. I would say for windows desktop a lot is riding on their Scorpio console... if it flops and Sony pushes them further away from developers I doubt Windows on the desktop for games will even be a market they can hold. If Scorpio sells though it will help them hold some sway over developers and should keep the desktop more healthy for a bit longer at least.

Goodness help MS if Sony and Google ever decide to team up on gaming, as they have started teaming on Android development it seems. A ChromeOS Pro with a GNMX compatible API on actual higher end Laptop hardware in the next few years could all but destroy what market they have left with people like yourself.

 

[heatlesssun]

Again you go back to games. Games are not the only thing people do with their personal computers heat.

I said that games weren't the only thing people do with their computers. But gaming is an mainstream activity that's been important driver in PC hardware and software. It's the only activity that many PC users do that warrants buying things like VR headsets, exotic cooling solutions, multiple GPUs, etc. If I didn't game, I'd have no reason to spend 80% of what I do on PCs. Even as niche as you think that is, the accumulative effect of just a few million people like myself would result in the loss of billions in the PC market.

 

[ChadD]

I said that games weren't the only thing people do with their computers. But gaming is an mainstream activity that's been important driver in PC hardware and software. It's the only activity that many PC users do that warrants buying things like VR headsets, exotic cooling solutions, multiple GPUs, etc. If I didn't game, I'd have no reason to spend 80% of what I do on PCs. Even as niche as you think that is, the accumulative effect of just a few million people like myself would result in the loss of billions in the PC market.

Do you honestly believe that ?

One the market is for PC games not Windows. If their was another viable general purpose OS in the market that offered the same level of game support, the hardware manufacturers simply go their. The market doesn't shrink just MSs take.

No I don't expect millions of PC users to stop buying PCs for gaming... I simply doubt they will still be running windows. (no I'm not suggesting they will be running GNU Linux either)

Consider this scenario... its how I see things going. 2 years from now... you can buy PCs just as you do now pre built or in parts. Only the machines being sold ship with Chrome Pro, it ships on Sony Viao gaming laptops, Dell machines and all the other majors. Chrome Pro runs almost exactly like the chrome we know only the google store now sells PC games, which run on Chrome Pro using Sonys own GNMX API. (in other words developers simply need to recompile their PS4 games... not recode them for DX or any other nonsense they are forced to do now to support windows)

If Scorpio fails I honestly expect Sony to go for the kill and call Google up with a fantastic offer..... If Scorpio sells really well its also a solid plan to head MS off with out having to push out a PS5 right away.

Everything needed to make that happen is already in play, nothing new needs to be developed or invented. GNMX already plays nice with the BSD kernel and Google could either switch a ChromeOS pro to the BSD kernel (as most chrome software could be adapted with little if any actual change) or more likely Sony could make a few slight adjustments to GNMX, as the Linux and BSD kernels are close enough that it wouldn't require massive amounts of work.

Windows isn't the target OS and DirectX isn't the target API for a large number of game publishers today... Sonys API and OS (BSD) is. Its not like MS has the PC market locked down with closed source APIs or anything anymore, most games are ported to their APIs as it stands.

MS is very close to being upended in the PC gaming market... and no it wouldn't effect PC gaming sales AT all. It would simply effect MS sales.

 

[heatlesssun]

All I'm saying is that PC gaming hardware and software is how many tens of billions? I couldn't give a shit if I had to use Linux to run my Vive if there's content under Linux for it.

 

[ChadD]

All I'm saying is that PC gaming hardware and software is how many tens of billions? I couldn't give a shit if I had to use Linux to run my Vive if there's content under Linux for it.

I agree with you... which is why running Win7 for a few games doesn't really bother me. I use the OS that is best for the job at hand.

We'll have to wait and see what the future holds. I am betting on Google for good or bad at some point getting into the higher end PC gaming market. That news is dropping that Sony has started open sourcing things like their high end closed source audio codecs for android makes me wonder what they might offer Google if MS starts giving them grief with their new console. Seeing what MS, Sony and Google do the next few years should be interesting.

 

[tetris42]

Do you honestly believe that ?

One the market is for PC games not Windows. If their was another viable general purpose OS in the market that offered the same level of game support, the hardware manufacturers simply go their. The market doesn't shrink just MSs take.

No I don't expect millions of PC users to stop buying PCs for gaming... I simply doubt they will still be running windows. (no I'm not suggesting they will be running GNU Linux either)

Consider this scenario... its how I see things going. 2 years from now... you can buy PCs just as you do now pre built or in parts. Only the machines being sold ship with Chrome Pro, it ships on Sony Viao gaming laptops, Dell machines and all the other majors. Chrome Pro runs almost exactly like the chrome we know only the google store now sells PC games, which run on Chrome Pro using Sonys own GNMX API. (in other words developers simply need to recompile their PS4 games... not recode them for DX or any other nonsense they are forced to do now to support windows)

If Scorpio fails I honestly expect Sony to go for the kill and call Google up with a fantastic offer..... If Scorpio sells really well its also a solid plan to head MS off with out having to push out a PS5 right away.

Everything needed to make that happen is already in play, nothing new needs to be developed or invented. GNMX already plays nice with the BSD kernel and Google could either switch a ChromeOS pro to the BSD kernel (as most chrome software could be adapted with little if any actual change) or more likely Sony could make a few slight adjustments to GNMX, as the Linux and BSD kernels are close enough that it wouldn't require massive amounts of work.

Windows isn't the target OS and DirectX isn't the target API for a large number of game publishers today... Sonys API and OS (BSD) is. Its not like MS has the PC market locked down with closed source APIs or anything anymore, most games are ported to their APIs as it stands.

MS is very close to being upended in the PC gaming market... and no it wouldn't effect PC gaming sales AT all. It would simply effect MS sales.

Whoa, slow down there, your logic is making my head spin. First off, you're right, Windows is not the target platform for many major game publishers (for smaller ones I'd argue it is), it's closer to SECOND. Now that article is from 2015, but if you look at Ubisoft sales data for early 2017, it still holds true. While Ubisoft isn't the end-all of companies, they're one of the few that make their sales by platform public and are a major publisher.

Second, you're making a pretty big fallacy in my opinion. You're assuming that because the PS4 uses BSD, everything's in line for publishers to release games straight to Linux. What if I told you that doesn't matter? How easy it is to port the game from one platform to another is not the PRIMARY consideration for a major developer to decide to make a port. How PROFITABLE it's anticipated to be is. No major studio is going to release on console, then release on Linux, and bypass Windows altogether. That's because on Windows they could maybe pick up 25% of total sales, and on Linux they could pick up 0.5%? Most studios don't release on Linux because it's not even worth the support costs to bring it to Linux with that kind of marketshare. I would love to be wrong, but I don't see these numbers drastically changing.

Third, you're saying that Sony is on the verge of giving Google a fantastic offer... based on what? Sony has ALWAYS been rather insular. They're not INTERESTED in having their games on as many platforms as possible by and large. They want to sell you into the Playstation ecosystem where they get a higher percentage of profits. Why do think they have so many damn exclusives. They've even BOUGHT OUT games originally developer for the PC to convert them into Playstation exclusives. I could be wrong on this point, but I've seen NOTHING about Sony's behavior to suggest they want to expand their games outside their own ecosystem.

Finally, you're saying MS is very close to being upended in the PC gaming market? Again, based on WHAT? They have 96% marketshare on Steam with Linux not even close to supporting the number of titles Windows does, nor at full speed, nor is Linux's gaming marketshare growing, in anything it's FALLING despite having more titles being added (I'm not counting mobile here, that's largely a separate market). How in the HELL does that translate to Microsoft being upended?

Again, just because games CAN be easier than ever to convert and develop for Linux has no bearing on whether or not they WILL. Don't underestimate the power of entrenchment.

 

[zero2dash]

Linux in my PC? Never

Linux - When tweaking your OS is more important than using it.

This was true about 10 years ago.
Now you spend more time tweaking Win10 than you do Win7, Win8.1, or any flavor of Linux.
(Unless of course you're comfortable with that big MS shaft up your backside.)
kermitbutthatsnoneofmybusiness.jpg

 

[Doward]

This was true about 10 years ago.
Now you spend more time tweaking Win10 than you do Win7, Win8.1, or any flavor of Linux.
(Unless of course you're comfortable with that big MS shaft up your backside.)
kermitbutthatsnoneofmybusiness.jpg

QFT.

I've spent more time tweaking and killing the telemetry for Windows 10 than I did literally patching the driver for my HPT 2680 for Kernel > 4.7

 

[DPI]

If Scorpio fails I honestly expect Sony to go for the kill and call Google up with a fantastic offer..... If Scorpio sells really well its also a solid plan to head MS off with out having to push out a PS5 right away.

Everything needed to make that happen is already in play, nothing new needs to be developed or invented. GNMX already plays nice with the BSD kernel and Google could either switch a ChromeOS pro to the BSD kernel (as most chrome software could be adapted with little if any actual change) or more likely Sony could make a few slight adjustments to GNMX, as the Linux and BSD kernels are close enough that it wouldn't require massive amounts of work.

Windows isn't the target OS and DirectX isn't the target API for a large number of game publishers today... Sonys API and OS (BSD) is. Its not like MS has the PC market locked down with closed source APIs or anything anymore, most games are ported to their APIs as it stands.

MS is very close to being upended in the PC gaming market... and no it wouldn't effect PC gaming sales AT all. It would simply effect MS sales.

Interesting theories. Sony could also put the screws to Microsoft/Xbox/Scorpio/DX12 any time by officially adopting Vulkan on PS4. Apparently the PS4 is hardware compatible with Vulkan.