Linux, iTunes Coming to Microsoft's App Store

auntjemima said:
I'm not entirely sure why the "force it on everyone" thing always comes up. I have been running Windows 10 for close to a year and I have yet to see the store open. I imagine if I scrolled down my apps list it would be there, but unless I open it manually, I'll never see it.
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*Whisper* "And, yet it's always there....."
 
ManofGod said:
Not sure he has one, except he would prefer to shove everyone into his own vision of what Windows should be.
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Exactly shoving everyone into one vision is Microsofts job. If you like something they will bury it, when you find it they will remove it, if you resort to a work around they will fix it.
 
auntjemima said:
Every device we use has a store on it, what's your point?
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The issue is that the Windows store has more to do with profitability and control over the last proprietary desktop OS in existence that, prior to Windows 10, was fairly open in its operation and flexibility, than actually rectifying the issues surrounding software installation and virus/malware infections under Windows. It's like claiming that speed cameras save lives, do they? Or is that a thinly veiled argument for forcing the public to accept the use of a device that generates a lot of government revenue?

The meer fact the Windows Store is present in Windows 10 raises the possibility that Microsoft may eventually force it as the only way to install software under Windows in order to prop up a company that's trying to adapt to a changing market in relation to the outright purchase of operating systems - And that simple concern makes people uneasy, as can be understood.
 
BulletDust said:
The issue is that the Windows store has more to do with profitability and control over the last proprietary desktop OS in existence that, prior to Windows 10, was fairly open in its operation and flexibility, than actually rectifying the issues surrounding software installation and virus/malware infections under Windows. It's like claiming that speed cameras save lives, do they? Or is that a thinly veiled argument for forcing the public to accept the use of a device that generates a lot of government revenue?

The meer fact the Windows Store is present in Windows 10 raises the possibility that Microsoft may eventually force it as the only way to install software under Windows in order to prop up a company that's trying to adapt to a changing market in relation to the outright purchase of operating systems - And that simple concern makes people uneasy, as can be understood.
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The mere fact that it is in Windows 10?... Do you feel the same as iTunes and their store present on MacOS, or the play store present on all Android devices?

Last I checked there was a software manager in Linux as well. You are free to install from it, if you like, or just download Deb's etc and install as you like. How is the store different than that?

You can't say "well what if they...." or "in the future they might...". Just because the want to make a profit, as do all companies, that doesn't mean you shouldn't look at what they are doing and compare it to all other major tech companies. They all have stores and no complaints, then Microsoft, who was late to the party makes one and BOOM, issue.
 
ChadD said:
You keep using that phrase. Your right windows -s is not a zero sum game. What users gain is not equal to what they loose. Or do you mean that MS gains exactly as much as users loose ? I'm not sure I'm clear on your meaning.
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A simplified version of Windows 10 tied to a curated app makes sense for some, not all. Cases where full Windows isn't necessary, now there's another option. All the detractors are making the argument that one day that Microsoft will for all Windows software to be distributed through the Store because they get a 30% cut of all sales. The big problem there is if Microsoft took away the ability to install and run arbitrary code, they effectively kill the point of Windows. The ability to run countless things is the greatest strength of Windows. It's also it's greatest weakness in the for of malware. So Windows 10 S makes sense IF your software needs can be handled by the store.
 
heatlesssun said:
But why does it have to be separate? To me a walled garden is, buy apps for a tablet device and no access to them on desktop.

I agree. I just don't think there's any reason why things have to siloed because that's how it's always been done before. Way can't at least some apps bought for a phone be used on a laptop of desktop for no additional charge?
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Not everyone wants a mix. Some just want to enjoy our chocolate without Microsoft insisting it needs peanut butter:
 
ManofGod said:
Not sure he has one, except he would prefer to shove everyone into his own vision of what Windows should be.
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Hey, hey, now, I said if your shovelware works for you then be my guest. Enjoy your summer vacation in Pyongyang. Where concentration of power, forced views of propaganda, and removal of freedom are all in style these days!
 
auntjemima said:
Every device we use has a store on it, what's your point?
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Not really. I have to use a cell for work which is Android. I don't use any additional services. I have no Apple phone or IoT devices in my house. I have to use Steam and Origin for games, but that's about the only stores I use.
 
Snowdog said:
Not everyone wants a mix. Some just want to enjoy our chocolate without Microsoft insisting it needs peanut butter:
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Which is not even close to what Windows 10 is like. It is more like a chocolate bar and peanut butter being on the same table but not mixed. You can choose to eat either one or have both at the same time, your choice.
 
BulletDust said:
The issue is that the Windows store has more to do with profitability and control over the last proprietary desktop OS in existence that, prior to Windows 10, was fairly open in its operation and flexibility, than actually rectifying the issues surrounding software installation and virus/malware infections under Windows. It's like claiming that speed cameras save lives, do they? Or is that a thinly veiled argument for forcing the public to accept the use of a device that generates a lot of government revenue?

The meer fact the Windows Store is present in Windows 10 raises the possibility that Microsoft may eventually force it as the only way to install software under Windows in order to prop up a company that's trying to adapt to a changing market in relation to the outright purchase of operating systems - And that simple concern makes people uneasy, as can be understood.
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Yet the fact that they have actively catered to Linux users by producing the subsystem and open sourced PowerShell, corefx, chakra and more says otherwise.

Android is the most popular OS. Chrome is the most popular browser, more programs are becoming OS agnostic. They don't have the pull that you still believe they do and haven't for a long time and they know it.
 
Ryokurin said:
Android is the most popular OS. Chrome is the most popular browser, more programs are becoming OS agnostic. They don't have the pull that you still believe they do and haven't for a long time and they know it.
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I agree with you on this. You get a cookie.
 
Shotglass01 said:
Not really. I have to use a cell for work which is Android. I don't use any additional services. I have no Apple phone or IoT devices in my house. I have to use Steam and Origin for games, but that's about the only stores I use.
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Yes, really. The all have stores, Android, Apple and Microsoft. Not just that, but two of those companies FORCE you to use their store to install software, unless you hack the phone (Apple) or turn on developer mode (Android). Tell me again how Microsoft is going to force us to use the store.
 
Shotglass01 said:
Not really. I have to use a cell for work which is Android. I don't use any additional services. I have no Apple phone or IoT devices in my house. I have to use Steam and Origin for games, but that's about the only stores I use.
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There is an Android Store. Just because you choose not to use it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think auntjemima makes a fair point. Other OSes have repos etc. which provide access to apps etc. that "Stores" do.
 
Chuklr said:
There is an Android Store. Just because you choose not to use it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think auntjemima makes a fair point. Other OSes have repos etc. which provide access to apps etc. that "Stores" do.
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Of course the other app stores are older and with Windows 10 S some think that Microsoft is going to essentially force that on to everyone. I don't see how Microsoft can take arbitrary code execution away from all Windows versions. At the same time, just look at the ransomeware thread that just got started. To say that taking away the ability to arbitrarily run code ISN'T a security concern is just a lie.
 
"S" ties a person to the Microsoft App store, but unlike Apple and Android, a user can "upgrade" to a non-"S" Windows 10 version and the ties are cut. Besides, how much latitude should a child have in downloading things from the internet? :D

With the addition of Ubuntu, Suse, and Fedora to the Microsoft Store it will be interesting to see if this drives users of those distro families to other distros.
 
Chuklr said:
"S" ties a person to the Microsoft App store, but unlike Apple and Android, a user can "upgrade" to a non-"S" Windows 10 version and the ties are cut. Besides, how much latitude should a child have in downloading things from the internet? :D
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Windows 10 S clearly makes sense in some situations. But some feel as though it should have been a different thing independent of Windows. But as you mention, you can move from S to Pro and that's actually something that other locked down devices can't do, unless jailbreaking is considered which as we know introduces problems.

Chuklr said:
With the addition of Ubuntu, Suse, and Fedora to the Microsoft Store it will be interesting to see if this drives users of those distro families to other distros.
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Outside of developers and hobbyists no one is going to use this. Not saying that as a bad thing, it's just not something for average users.
 
heatlesssun said:
Of course the other app stores are older and with Windows 10 S some think that Microsoft is going to essentially force that on to everyone. I don't see how Microsoft can take arbitrary code execution away from all Windows versions. At the same time, just look at the ransomeware thread that just got started. To say that taking away the ability to arbitrarily run code ISN'T a security concern is just a lie.
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In the same short post, you go from saying how could Microsoft shut down arbitrary access, and in the next sentence appear to justify it with: Because Ransomware.

As I pointed out in a previous post. It won't happen overnight. It will take a couple of years to achieve critical mass with people on Windows S, then they can screw the rest of us at will.

Chuklr said:
"S" ties a person to the Microsoft App store, but unlike Apple and Android, a user can "upgrade" to a non-"S" Windows 10 version and the ties are cut. Besides, how much latitude should a child have in downloading things from the internet? :D
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So you Add to Heatlesssuns: "Because Ransomeware", with "Will no one think of the Children?"...

Just because you can upgrade to full Windows today, why would you assume that ability will be there years down the road? There will be lots of excuses to disable Full Windows in the future once Microsoft gets enough Windows S users to get away with screwing the rest of us.
 
Snowdog said:
... Just because you can upgrade to full Windows today, why would you assume that ability will be there years down the road? There will be lots of excuses to disable Full Windows in the future once Microsoft gets enough Windows S users to get away with screwing the rest of us.
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Sorry to leave you with the wrong impression. My post tried to point out that I think the "S" version is aimed at the education market, i.e., schools, and, therefore, having it tied to the Microsoft Store is reasonable. I further pointed out that should a person not want to be tied solely to the Microsoft store they can upgrade. Besides, do you really think an 8-year old should be able to download anything they choose to from the internet? This you may want to rethink, and then defend.

Microsoft may well decide, one day, to force all users to be limited to the Microsoft Store. That, however, would go against one of the strengths they have in the market of having a wide range of choices available in application, other third party off the shelf or downloadable software, and hardware. In my opinion, they may try that, but I don't think it would be a decision of long standing.
 
Snowdog said:
Just because you can upgrade to full Windows today, why would you assume that ability will be there years down the road?
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Because I don't see the benefit to Microsoft in removing the single greatest strength of Windows. But yes, that same strength might also be Windows' greatest single weakness because arbitrary code execution is great for malware. There's countless billions that people have spent on Windows software. There's screwing and then there's throwing away billions of dollars and that's well beyond screwing. A version of Windows that's tied to a curated store where those apps can run on open versions of Windows makes sense. More sense than a separate OS tied to a store where the software in that store is incompatible with all versions of Windows.

I'm not saying that it's completely bogus, I just don't see how it works. The critical mass of applications for average is almost there in the store today, it's not like you need countless thousand, just the right ones. But it will still be a tiny fraction of all Windows software.
 
Chuklr said:
Sorry to leave you with the wrong impression. My post tried to point out that I think the "S" version is aimed at the education market, i.e., schools, and, therefore, having it tied to the Microsoft Store is reasonable. I further pointed out that should a person not want to be tied solely to the Microsoft store they can upgrade. Besides, do you really think an 8-year old should be able to download anything they choose to from the internet? This you may want to rethink, and then defend.
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Should an 8 year old be on the internet at all? If so get them a Chromebook.

Why should every OS be dumbed down for 8 year olds?

You and Heatless keep making the argument that imbeciles and/or children need to be protected from things that can go wrong using computers.

But that doesn't mean every OS needs to be for imbeciles/children.

If MS gets critical mass using child/Imbecile mode, it is only a matter of time until that becomes the only mode, because they can also monetize everything in that mode.
 
Snowdog said:
Should an 8 year old be on the internet at all? If so get them a Chromebook.

Why should every OS be dumbed down for 8 year olds?

You and Heatless keep making the argument that imbeciles and/or children need to be protected from things that can go wrong using computers.

But that doesn't mean every OS needs to be for imbeciles/children.

If MS gets critical mass using child/Imbecile mode, it is only a matter of time until that becomes the only mode, because they can also monetize everything in that mode.
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I work in a typical enterprise environment, virtually no one as admin rights to their local machines and downloading and installing software is STRICKLY prohibited. So yes something like Windows 10 S just makes sense in certain environments. I just don't see how the cut in the Windows Store makes up for the ability for everyone that uses Windows only because of it's vast software library. There's no way a 30% on some software, a lot of which is super cheap and free, makes up for people not having a reason at all to use Windows.

It's not an all of nothing situation.
 
Snowdog said:
Should an 8 year old be on the internet at all? If so get them a Chromebook.

Why should every OS be dumbed down for 8 year olds?

You and Heatless keep making the argument that imbeciles and/or children need to be protected from things that can go wrong using computers.

But that doesn't mean every OS needs to be for imbeciles/children.

If MS gets critical mass using child/Imbecile mode, it is only a matter of time until that becomes the only mode, because they can also monetize everything in that mode.
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Microsoft seems to have decided to compete with the Chromebook market which is competition and should be applauded. Competition is a good thing. Why should Chromebooks have a monopoly on that market?

I didn't say every OS should be dumbed down for an 8-year old.
 
westrock2000 said:
It shows Xeyes......that's literally all you need to show me to prove it!
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It was literally just the first post that came up when I googled it. I did it once a while ago to see if it would work, but for the most part I just use bash. I am wondering if the Windows Store distros will have an X-Server built in? I hope so. I am also hoping that if they are on the Store instead of Windows Update that they update more frequently.
 
heatlesssun said:
A simplified version of Windows 10 tied to a curated app makes sense for some, not all. Cases where full Windows isn't necessary, now there's another option. All the detractors are making the argument that one day that Microsoft will for all Windows software to be distributed through the Store because they get a 30% cut of all sales. The big problem there is if Microsoft took away the ability to install and run arbitrary code, they effectively kill the point of Windows. The ability to run countless things is the greatest strength of Windows. It's also it's greatest weakness in the for of malware. So Windows 10 S makes sense IF your software needs can be handled by the store.
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Your argument that windows -s has a reason to exist for markets that need to be locked down for security are sort of BS. Corp and education windows machines that require the security of a locked down DE without the possibility of running unapproved software already exist. No large corp of well setup school had an issue with people running unapproved software before, locking windows down has always been possible. Does windows -s make that easier... perhaps, although I would argue the competition does a much better job -s does make that a bit easier. Still it seems clear to me its not the main reason Microsoft rebranded RT. Their intentions are clear, and there -s play is 100% a threat to that ecosystem you claim is their biggest strength. If MS gains 20-30% market penetration with such a product that ecosystem will evaporate... that ecosystem is only as valid while the majority of developers are still developing windows software solely. The market has already seen many many major vendors go cross platform, MacOS support is very good these days... and Linux support is improving and I would argue is already at the point Apple support was at 6-7 years back.

MS choices the last few years have made windows development more unpalatable for developers then it has ever been. Yes they still have the largest Desktop install base... no one is dropping windows support. The issue for MS is the majority of major developers are rapidly moving support to cross platform, and cloud based development. The more -s systems MS sells, the more they accelerate that move themselves. -RT and now s edition windows plays are going to prove to be massive missteps. Down the road it will be studied in universities as one of the reasons for MS downfall. Cause your not wrong the ecosystem of software has always been their strength... MS doesn't seem to understand that as you do.
 
Chuklr said:
"S" ties a person to the Microsoft App store, but unlike Apple and Android, a user can "upgrade" to a non-"S" Windows 10 version and the ties are cut. Besides, how much latitude should a child have in downloading things from the internet? :D

With the addition of Ubuntu, Suse, and Fedora to the Microsoft Store it will be interesting to see if this drives users of those distro families to other distros.
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Arch or bust... well ok perhaps Gentoo. Or perhaps all the longest bearded neck beards will have to install slackware like the head neck beard.
Sometimes its easy to laugh at us Linux types... I laughed.... still your likely right the true Linux nerds already had a hate on for Ubuntu sleeping with the enemy, now the Fedora project and Suse. :) lol
 
ChadD said:
Your argument that windows -s has a reason to exist for markets that need to be locked down for security are sort of BS. Corp and education windows machines that require the security of a locked down DE without the possibility of running unapproved software already exist.
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I know, I work in such an environment. But that requires effort. Windows 10 S out of the box is already in that state.
 
heatlesssun said:
I know, I work in such an environment. But that requires effort. Windows 10 S out of the box is already in that state.
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As I said sure its easier... sort of. You know well then this will never fly in an market like banking, where their is a reliance on W32 software. I can't imagine -s being much of a draw for many business markets really, not much of the niche software out their is going to have developers jumping through hoops to show up in the windows store. The ONLY market -s will actually perhaps work in is education... and for that market I have already detailed how I believe MS completely misunderstands why they have been loosing that market. -s doesn't win them back education clients they have already lost... the best they can hope for is to hold on to a handful of larger education accounts that haven't already dumped them. So if they are at 25% of that market today I think the best they could hope for with -s is to hold that share over 20% before the end of the next education purchasing cycle. My bet is this time next year they will be more around the 15% mark... time will tell.
 
Chuklr said:
Microsoft seems to have decided to compete with the Chromebook market which is competition and should be applauded. Competition is a good thing. Why should Chromebooks have a monopoly on that market?
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Wait, so after years of Chromebooks being mocked as "LOL chromebooks" and "I'd never get one" and "Who buys these?", now suddenly its "OMG Chromebooks monopoly, Microsoft should be applauded for deciding to compete!" You guys are hilarious. So after nearly three decades of windows monopoly, now suddenly Microsoft is The Little Engine That Could, because Chromebooks have become too big to ignore in one segment.

Chromebooks quietly carved out a niche in schools because they're cheap, fast, maintenance free without the endless virus/malware scans / patches / reboots, and hundreds or thousands can be deployed without the need for dedicated IT staff.

Unfortunately, Microsoft taking regular bloated Windows, removing the desktop icon and calling it "Windows S" isn't going to make any inroads in this school segment that's now suddenly so important, nor is the trashdump of third worlder scam apps called the Windows Store something that will persuade many IT decisionmakers, in school districts or otherwise.
 
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ChadD said:
As I said sure its easier... sort of. You know well then this will never fly in an market like banking, where their is a reliance on W32 software. I can't imagine -s being much of a draw for many business markets really, not much of the niche software out their is going to have developers jumping through hoops to show up in the windows store.
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It's not an all or nothing situation. For IT groups that need to run certain kinds of applications and build then with tools like Eclipse and Visual Studio, no Windows 10 S wouldn't work. For something like a teller terminal or even a number of back office employees that need Office and nothing else too specialized, Windows 10 S could be very viable. You can build private stores that would be able to run applications if they run through the desktop converter.

I just don't know why people are arguing against a choice that makes things simpler. Well, I guess I do because some thing that the whole point is Microsoft taking 30% from every Windows software sale which again, how that happens and Microsoft simply drops support for billions of dollars of Windows, I just don't see how that works.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's not an all or nothing situation. For IT groups that need to run certain kinds of applications and build then with tools like Eclipse and Visual Studio, no Windows 10 S wouldn't work. For something like a teller terminal or even a number of back office employees that need Office and nothing else too specialized, Windows 10 S could be very viable. You can build private stores that would be able to run applications if they run through the desktop converter.

I just don't know why people are arguing against a choice that makes things simpler. Well, I guess I do because some thing that the whole point is Microsoft taking 30% from every Windows software sale which again, how that happens and Microsoft simply drops support for billions of dollars of Windows, I just don't see how that works.
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So the tellers at your bank deal with customers with MS office ? Or your telling me they use cloud based software and just deal with a browser ? I don't understand you telling me your bank is going to mess with the windows store in order for your tellers to use windows -s. lol
 
ChadD said:
So the tellers at your bank deal with customers with MS office ? Or your telling me they use cloud based software and just deal with a browser ? I don't understand you telling me your bank is going to mess with the windows store in order for your tellers to use windows -s. lol
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We have our own package management system, we don't just host installers and have people run them like an internet download. It's very much a store system where people look for things and an install process with elevated permissions installs the package. All I was saying is that sure, we potentially could package things as UWAs and deliver them that way. I doubt that would any time soon since we already have a great process for this sort of thing.
 
heatlesssun said:
We have our own package management system, we don't just host installers and have people run them like an internet download. It's very much a store system where people look for things and an install process with elevated permissions installs the package. All I was saying is that sure, we potentially could package things as UWAs and deliver them that way. I doubt that would any time soon since we already have a great process for this sort of thing.
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So you agree then windows -s is never going to fly in a bank. I can tell you the same is true in almost every business market you can imagine. Companies still rely on windows way more then they should... but its not windows they are stuck with. Its inventory management, accounting, payroll, and payment systems that are all highly niche, and the larger the company the more likely its all highly customised as well. I see large companies everyday that have freaking windows xp systems running in their warehouses because they don't want to change out their IM software. Windows -s will see zero uptick in those markets... nor will it see any movement in the education market. I think its pretty easy to see how -s is going to fall on its face. I am still trying to honestly figure out who its supposed to be for... the only answer I can come up with is MS is trying everything they can to get locked down store based OS into the market somehow. This -s play just seems rushed and not well thought out.
 
auntjemima said:
The mere fact that it is in Windows 10?... Do you feel the same as iTunes and their store present on MacOS, or the play store present on all Android devices?

Last I checked there was a software manager in Linux as well. You are free to install from it, if you like, or just download Deb's etc and install as you like. How is the store different than that?

You can't say "well what if they...." or "in the future they might...". Just because the want to make a profit, as do all companies, that doesn't mean you shouldn't look at what they are doing and compare it to all other major tech companies. They all have stores and no complaints, then Microsoft, who was late to the party makes one and BOOM, issue.
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I had a feeling you'd attempt to throw up the software manager under Linux, and your argument is flawed. It's flawed because the software manager is free, due to the fact that it's free it obvious that it's one intention is to benefit the consumer as it's obvious that it's not benefiting the developer. If Microsoft's intentions regarding the Windows Store were purely to benefit the consumer they'd avoid taking a cut of all sales on the Windows Store, however it's obvious they do take a cut which I find boggling as making the store free to developers would be a sure fire way to increase it's adoption.

Once again, bizarre decisions on behalf of Microsoft....

As someone that also owns and uses a Mac, I also believe that Apple are using their own store primarily as a way to generate more revenue as opposed to benefiting the consumer, no different to Microsoft. The point you're missing is that the fact the Windows Store exists is making Windows users uneasy as Windows was the last propitiatory OS with no application store and as a desktop OS people want things to remain as open as a propitiatory product can possibly be - They don't want to even consider the notion of the OS forced onto them being locked down to Windows Store installation only, which some may claim is unlikely - The notion of Trump getting elected 10 years ago was unlikely, but it happened.

What I'm claiming is that I understand this point of view on behalf of enthusiasts, with more and more civil liberties being stripped from the average member of society in favour of the large corporations pulling the strings of Government, I see no reason to pretend like the scenario isn't a concern.

And yet here you are...Getting all defensive?
 
ManofGod said:
Which is not even close to what Windows 10 is like. It is more like a chocolate bar and peanut butter being on the same table but not mixed. You can choose to eat either one or have both at the same time, your choice.
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Personally, I think it's more like chocolate flavoured cancer..."It must be good, it tastes like chocolate".

There's no ignoring the fact that Windows 10 is so good Microsoft had to give it away.
 
DPI said:
Wait, so after years of Chromebooks being mocked as "LOL chromebooks" and "I'd never get one" and "Who buys these?", now suddenly its "OMG Chromebooks monopoly, Microsoft should be applauded for deciding to compete!" You guys are hilarious. So after nearly three decades of windows monopoly, now suddenly Microsoft is The Little Engine That Could, because Chromebooks have become too big to ignore in one segment.

Chromebooks quietly carved out a niche in schools because they're cheap, fast, maintenance free without the endless virus/malware scans / patches / reboots, and hundreds or thousands can be deployed without the need for dedicated IT staff.

Unfortunately, Microsoft taking regular bloated Windows, removing the desktop icon and calling it "Windows S" isn't going to make any inroads in this school segment that's now suddenly so important, nor is the trashdump of third worlder scam apps called the Windows Store something that will persuade many IT decisionmakers, in school districts or otherwise.
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I've never "mocked" Chromebooks or said "I'd never get one" so I'm not one of "those guys". In fact, I checked out Chromebooks before I decided I could get a better laptop set up by purchasing a couple of used laptops on Ebay and blowing away the Windows install and installing the Linux OS on them. That way I have an OS I want and I'm not tied into the Google Cloud environment.

See I'm willing to run any OS and am not tied to any one, but I won't take the line that one is evil and another is not. If Linux had a USA tax package that allowed one to e-File I could seriously consider using Linux only, but that, at this time, does not exist. Unless you happen to know of one that does allow a person to e-File. Logging in to Vanguard and then transferring online to TurboTax is not what I'm talking about. I want to purchase the physical program disk and install on my personal computer. Also, running Windows in a VM is NOT an option. Should that be the solution I will simply maintain a Windows system.
 
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