Linux as a gaming platform

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Desdichado

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
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What do you all think of Linux as a gaming platform, both now and in the future? I am specifically interested in answers to three questions:

• Have you considered or are you currently using Linux as a gaming platform?
• What do you see as the future of gaming on Linux?
• What do you see as the current problems with gaming on Linux?

I'm doing this both out of curiosity and as research for a class, so any response is appreciated.
 
If we could game natively on linux it would be the first and only platform i put on my computers. Until linux devs actually start talking to developers/publishers and encourage them to make them natively openGL, or whatever is needed for the game to play on linux, and more and more people start using linux because its waaay cooler (want to say better but just cant) then windows and more and more gamers switch then will all games be mainstream for linux. and maybe instead of being ported to linux when they make it for windows, make it native for linux, and port for windows....
 
• Have you considered or are you currently using Linux as a gaming platform?

Yes, at one point. Then I got tired of Tux Racer :)

• What do you see as the future of gaming on Linux?

Right now, the only sure thing on Linux is Flash. Everything else is a hack-job, excepting a handful of games that are native. And the native games that are not open source often have unresolvable incompatibilities and bugs, because development is usually abandoned right after release.

If they can jump the hardware support hurdles, then they might just attract more native games. But honestly, the only games with long lives in Linux are the open-source; it's the only way to resolve incompatibilities caused by new versions of the kernel and conflicting library files, etc. Basically, if gaming is going to happen on Linux, it will have to be open-source.


• What do you see as the current problems with gaming on Linux?

Lack of consistent drivers for 3D acceleration makes the cost of entry in Linux gaming high. Constantly changing kernel API with nary a care for backward-compatibility break games. The kernel is an especially bad offender, because Linus doesn't give a shit about anything except making a server OS.

Also, unless you are working on something sexy like the kernel or Gnome or video drivers, contributors tend to have a short attention span, and projects tend to fall apart. A great example is X: everyone needs it, but it really doesn't get much visibility because it's buried underneath your favorite window manager. The fact is, X.org is really sucking it up, and people are clamoring for a replacement...of course, X.org replaced xfree86 years back because that project was falling apart. Seeing a pattern developing here?

At least the drivers part is getting better. Thanks to ATI's open documentation, you now have more choice than just Nvidia for Linux gaming. The drivers are a crucial first step in the right direction, and may encourage developers to take the leap.
 
defaultluser said:
• Have you considered or are you currently using Linux as a gaming platform?


• What do you see as the future of gaming on Linux?


• What do you see as the current problems with gaming on Linux?
Click to expand...

Umm, i answered all these questions...idk why ur quoting them again
 
1) No.
2) As the platform for a console/handheld manufacturer
3) Ignoring the majority.

Explanation:
1) It currently only exists as an emulator, not a standalone platform. Regardless of the reasons for why this is the case, this is the reality.
2) Consoles are the easiest launching point for Linux. Asus' EEE PC got a lot of people using a Linux distro because it kicks off in a stupidly easy form that obscures all complexity until you are interested enough to go and unlock advanced mode. Consoles are a closed system where all variables can be controlled and so they can package in Linux seamlessly to the overall platform experience from the ground up. It's much easier to troubleshoot 1 set of hardware/software than everybody's motley set of hardware and software settings.

After it's established on a console/handheld it has the basis to draw in PC development. Otherwise, they're not stupid enough to blow their time and money being the first to pioneer a risky endeavor, it'll take a console manufacturer who can lock down the risk by dictacting the environment.

3) Linux games need linux gamers. Linux gamers need linux games. It takes a large force to overcome the initial inertia, hence the need for a manufacturer to pick it up as a platform for development.

For this to happen, Linux needs to appeal to the manufacturer over a native solution. That's a tough sell.
 
• Have you considered or are you currently using Linux as a gaming platform?
I have put some thought into it. A free OS is always nice and back in the months before Vista came out, I was really craving something new. I was dabbling in a lot of skins and explorer alternatives to jazz up the old interface.

• What do you see as the future of gaming on Linux?
• What do you see as the current problems with gaming on Linux?

I'm going to answer these questions together because I feel they go hand in hand. Honestly, there isn't a gaming future for linux. There are less games developed for it than for mac's and some people are content with Wine. Looking at the grand scheme of things, a lot of companies wont develop games for linux because its such a small and fickle market. I don't know the numbers, but I imagine that less than 5% of home pc's run linux. Of those 5%, I think that a good 4% run linux because they need something that will run on their very outdated hardware (im talking p3/socket A stuff).

Here's the typical conversation that I have with people I have talked to, who run linux.

Them: I run Ubuntu on my computer. Its pretty cool. I hope they make a port for Wow so I don't have to run it through wine.
Me: You could always dual boot and go with XP for your games.
Them: Microsoft sucks, I hate them and they eat babies.
Me: Ok then.
Them: Well, I will run windows when I build my new rig. Im going to get a job soon and make like $6 an hour. I will be able to move out so my mom cant say no when I try and buy a computer. Its going to kick ass. I figure I will save up like $2000 in a few months bla bla bla..

Anyways you get the idea. A lot of linux users (I may not be talking about you, so don't get bitchy) run linux because they are A) too cheap to buy an OS. B) Think that microsoft "liek sux". C) Have a computer that runs shitty even on small kernels like Damn Small Linux. or D) Don't use the computer for gaming. All of which aren't exactly the target audience that developers want to design games for.
 
*Have you considered or are you currently using Linux as a gaming platform?
Yes and I do. There are quite a few NATIVE Linux games out there and new
ones are always coming along.
iD are spearheading gaming on Linux with the doom series, quake series (inc
EnemyTerritory:QuakeWars, which btw contrary to what has been said is piss easy
to install... And you don't need to be a Linux guru to do it). there tech5
engine and rage have had positive comments from Carmack to be coming
linux-native as well
iD actually
opensource their old engines (they have stated the doom3 engine will go gpl when
they are finished with it) and quite a few opensource games run off the q3-gpl
engine

Epic are as well with the Unreal series (but are being shite with UT3, the Linux
client exists but for some reason they can't release it yet, [strong] Rumour is that
Valve are porting STEAM to Linux esp since postal3 is going linux-native and
uses valves source engine ;) )

The opensource games are fun, but they don't cut it w.r.t. commercial games
(although the on q3 engine are really good Nexuis as is freeciv)
Then there is Wine and co (codeweaver-gamer and cedega - good for DRM games). A nasty hack but works
very well (as long as the game doesn't use bullshit DRM [noCD hack fixes that
like for window] or the game doesn't use obscure windows dll call). It isn't as
bad as people have made out with wine.. I mean DawnOfWar:SoulStorm installed
from the DVD by just double-clicking on the setup.exe and it just worked (I
needed a noCD crack cause those bastards added DRM!!!)

BASICALLY there are quite alot of linux-native games out there (AvP,NWN,Penumbra,Jack
Keane,Savage2,X3,EVE,Vendetta...), and WINE has improve ALOT over the year

What do you see as the future of gaming on Linux?
I hope there is a future and the likes of iD are helping in bringing
cutting-edge games to linux as well as the likes of the linux gaming company
that take windows games of a couple of years old and port them.
The crunch will be if that rumour about Valve going linux-native is true (they
have been advertising for the last couple of years for linux coders to port
their games - search if you don't believe)

If Valve did do it it would be the tipping stone that gets linux taken seriously
as a gaming OS (even those HL2,CSS... run ok in WINE)

if Valve dont (even tho postal3 is coming to linux-native??) gaming on linux
will lag severely behind windows (like MAC does as well) with new games coming
out but nothing really to catapult it to bring in other designhouses

DX10 is actually making cross-porting alot more attractive. DirectX had the
advantage over OpenGL+... because it was an all-in-one API package. DX10 fucked
up sound access and thus creative are pushing OpenAL really hard thus breaking
this whole all-in-one that was DX's advantage.
Not only that but libSDL has advanced a hell of alot such that it wraps around
OGL,OAL to provide a common API but not only that it can wrap around DirectX as
well so if a coder uses libSDL they have done alot of the hard work to allow a
game to run on windows,MAC and linux

What do you see as the current problems with gaming on Linux?
Windows (XP specifically) is the biggest current problem. MS has a 90% marketshare and game
designers are after money. It is because game designers want to make money that
the "Vista only, DX10 only" games don't exist either... not enough marketshare
for such a commitment (linux position of gaming is a bit like the dx10-only
titles)

IF MS's marketshare could drop to 70% and MAC & Linux take up the slack then
things would change.

As to the bullshit about "lack of consistent 3D acceleration" its exactly that.
Bullshit. OpenGL and the API to interface with that is the same as on windows.
Linux 3D driver have existed for a VERY long time to allow consistent. I mean
FFS I can load the 1st quake onto my linux box and it just runs TODAY if there
was no consistancy that would break... Linux's userland has been as consistant
as windows has been between its versions

Then there is the "Constantly changing kernel API with nary a care for backwardcompatibility
break games." Again BULLSHIT.
Yes the Kernel's API does change BUT only internal API, the API that is only of
concern to kernel-level drivers NOT games ...
The reason we are on kernel: 2.6.27 is because the external API hasn't
changed... IF it had changed with would be on 2.8.x but we are not
The only people that are bitchen about the kernel's internal API changing is
nvidia but all they have todo is tweak their kernel and release a new one (like
they have always done...) AND if they would provide openspecs (like ATi have)
then the linux community could handle the changes to the API

I can take an old game (early quake) and it will run on my upto date linux system
(gcc-4.3.1, Glibc-2.8, kernel-2.6.25) why? because the API which games need have
been bloody stable for a looong time. AND failing you just slot the relevant
glibc/openal/ version and pre-load them and the game will still work (I mean
UT2004 shipped with libSDL and openal libs within its working directory, but you
can link against your main systems ones for better performance, ~10fps boost)

YES there was a time that "Linux" compatibility was really bad!!! this was
mostly when the kernel was in 2.4.x series and it worked on the odd version are
testing and even are release. This lead to distro's heavily patching their
kernels and glibc (since the time between releases was huge) and this lead to
incompatibility between distros.

HOWEVER with "git" being used and snapshots for releases it means that each
distro is actually very similar now and things do just work.


Ubuntu has also done a great job of providing a consistent interface for dev's
and users.
From a users P.O.V. Ubuntu is taking out alot of the hard (but fun ;) ) out of
linux and trying to make it just work
From a dev P.O.V. they can dev with Ubuntu and say "works with Ubuntu" so ppl
can use either ubuntu or people can figure out what additional libs are needed
(a quick ldd on the ELF binary/lib soon tells you that)


In short Linux is a good gaming platform just not attractive enough for all
games to be written natively for linux (chicken and the egg). Its getting better
and there are a few potential to tip the scales to improve things drastically.
For the sake of downloading a 700meg ISO you might as well try out linux and
tinker with it (where the fun really is ;) )

Oh and btw I use linux cause it is fun to tinker with. I have legal copies of
Win2k,XP,Vista (but 99% of the time in my gentoo box). MY nice Core2 machine
with 3Gig RAM is only a year old (and was build for ETQW) and MS has its place
(if only MS would port office to linux, I would buy immediately)
just to rule out the stereotype of a linux user ;)
 
The bottom line is that it would cost a lot of different groups a lot of money, and they would see little benefit back in return. They wouldn't be noticeably expanding their user base or appealing to a different market, because people already understand that windows is for gaming and if they really want to will just run both. Not only that, but selling something on a platform inherently not centered around making money doesn't make very much logical sense, imo. A lot of people run linux so they don't have to buy software. With pc gaming declining as is, I don't see how fragmenting and expanding the cost of development is at all beneficial to anyone.
 
So everyone that uses Windows buys all their software?

Somehow I don't think that is true
Just cause the OS is free/open doesn't mean userland apps have to be or that people using linux won't spend any money (people don't use linux because it is free... why are people switching when they already have XP then?). iD have made money from closed-source linux games

Matlab have made money from closed-source linux app
Xilinx has made money from closed-source linux app
maple have made money from closed-source linux app

The thing is if an application is coded sanely it doesn't take much to port an app.
Quite a few apps these days use the qt4 toolkit for windows THIS removes one of the major stumbling blocks with porting desktop aps to linux (OrCAD now uses qt4 but they dont have a linux client, only reason to convert to qt4 is to sell a linux client at some stage).

and with games there is very little that is OS-specific.
 
Desdichado said:
What do you all think of Linux as a gaming platform, both now and in the future? I am specifically interested in answers to three questions:

• Have you considered or are you currently using Linux as a gaming platform?
• What do you see as the future of gaming on Linux?
• What do you see as the current problems with gaming on Linux?

I'm doing this both out of curiosity and as research for a class, so any response is appreciated.
Click to expand...

I've tried it with my old setup that is now my test server (Radeon x850xt). It is still pretty hit or miss on getting games to work correctly. Last night I had to go through a big production to get the new ATi 8.7 drivers installed correctly and then Eve Online still did not recognize it.

I have had luck in the past with Source Engine games though.

The future of linux lies in native binaries where games are using OpenGL instead of DirectX. All id Software titles get linux binaries as well as Unreal Engine games if the designers create a binary for us. It's there for developers to use but very few do as of yet.

Current problems: Drivers. At least for me personally. Sometimes the installer works correctly and sometimes it doesn't this needs to be resolved quickly. Beyond that adoption of OpenGL 3 will be a huge help but so many developers are invested in DirectX that it will be a hard sell.
 
eeyrjmr said:
So everyone that uses Windows buys all their software?

Somehow I don't think that is true
Just cause the OS is free/open doesn't mean userland apps have to be or that people using linux won't spend any money (people don't use linux because it is free... why are people switching when they already have XP then?). iD have made money from closed-source linux games

Matlab have made money from closed-source linux app
Xilinx has made money from closed-source linux app
maple have made money from closed-source linux app

The thing is if an application is coded sanely it doesn't take much to port an app.
Quite a few apps these days use the qt4 toolkit for windows THIS removes one of the major stumbling blocks with porting desktop aps to linux (OrCAD now uses qt4 but they dont have a linux client, only reason to convert to qt4 is to sell a linux client at some stage).

and with games there is very little that is OS-specific.
Click to expand...

My comment was that "a lot of people" use linux largely because it is free and they don't want to pay for microsoft's expensive software and I stand by that. Certainly not everyone, and yes there are applications that linux users will pay for, but there just aren't very many.

That point is secondary, though, to the fact that its a lot of work with little benefit. Its an entirely new platform to test on. Just because the software runs doesn't mean it works properly with all different types of hardware. Linux drivers more or less suck in many cases even for very popular products.
 
eeyrjmr said:
examples please?
Click to expand...

Oh come on...video card drivers on linux aren't even close to what they are on xp and even vista in terms of performance or ease of install/upgrade. Linux is great at what it does, but its not intended to be a gaming os. It certainly could be, but it'll never receive the necessary attention. Its a catch 22 of no games and sub-par hardware support.
 
Spaceman_Spiff said:
Oh come on...video card drivers on linux aren't even close to what they are on xp and even vista in terms of performance or ease of install/upgrade. Linux is great at what it does, but its not intended to be a gaming os. It certainly could be, but it'll never receive the necessary attention. Its a catch 22 of no games and sub-par hardware support.
Click to expand...

ATi linux drivers have been shown to outperform Vista drivers
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=897&num=1
so does that mean that Vista isn't a gaming OS?

And nvidia drivers are actually really good with a few fps difference between XP and Linux - that can easily be recovered in running Openbox instead of... KDE

Linux nvidia/ATi drivers are actually pretty good. Yes there was a time that ATi drivers were a P.O.S. but that time has long past
 
eeyrjmr said:
ATi linux drivers have been shown to outperform Vista drivers
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=897&num=1
so does that mean that Vista isn't a gaming OS?

And nvidia drivers are actually really good with a few fps difference between XP and Linux - that can easily be recovered in running Openbox instead of... KDE

Linux nvidia/ATi drivers are actually pretty good. Yes there was a time that ATi drivers were a P.O.S. but that time has long past
Click to expand...

I will agree that the ATi drivers are constantly improving but I still have issues installing them. It's not good when you have to use a 3rd part to tell you how to install the latest version. This is my biggest issue with linux. There is no unified install system.

http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Ubuntu_Hardy_Installation_Guide

I had to use that, black list the old drivers and build *.deb packages to run instead of just the *.bin file you download. Then Eve online still doesn't recognize the drivers so I can't play it on my Ubuntu machine. fglrxinfo reports the correct drivers though. Maybe it will work but I didn't have time last night for testing.
 
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