LHR for current gen cards are a horrible idea

El_Capitan

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So, I'm catching back up on 5 years of being away from the computer hardware building/overclocking arena.

Okay, so LHR cards (Lite Hash Rate) are now being made to deter crypto miners from buying graphics cards, right? Well, that's a horrible idea, and here's why.

  1. Resellers are still selling the LHR cards at 2x or 3x MSRP rate like they're still FHR cards. For example, the RTX 3060Ti's MSRP was $399. They're selling still selling at resellers for ~$900 as I type this, and those are the LHR cards. No miner will buy those cards, and no gamer is going to buy those cards at those prices, either. Also, until the prices drop back down to MSRP, AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel have no incentive to race with the next generation of cards, because they can't be priced based on the previous generation's MSRP.
  2. People are speculating that once Ethereum 2.0 starts, meaning that it goes from Proof of Work (PoW, basically mining crypto) to Proof of Stake (PoS, there's no more mining, just staking crypto and getting percentage yields), that GPU prices will get back to normal. That's ridiculous. Cryptocurrency isn't going away any time, soon. Neither is mining. All the Ethereum miners will just start mining another PoW cryptocurrency.
  3. Let's say Person A buys a RTX 3060Ti LHR card for $900, and Person B bought a RTX 3060Ti FHR card for $900. A year or two goes by, and a RTX 4060Ti LHR gets released for $449 MSRP. Person A's RTX 3060Ti LHR card is now worth $300 used. No miner will buy that card. Person B's RTX 3060Ti FHR card is now worth way more, or equal to, the RTX 4060Ti LHR, based on the RTX 4060Ti's LHR hashrate.
  4. Even if prices for LHR cards go back down near the MSRP rate, they'll still be bought by miners, because it's based on Rate of Return (RoR). Basically, based on the hashrate and Watts a card has, how many days will it take to mine with that card to make up for the cost of that card? For example, if a $900 RTX 3060Ti FHR has a RoR of 180 days (6 months), and a RTX 3060Ti LHR mines at 66% of the FHR's capability, then once a RTX 3060Ti LHR's price gets to $600 (which is still $200 above MSRP), the RoR is still the same, so the miner is still going to buy the LHR card based on the price than a gamer is.
No matter what, the gamer is screwed. They're buying gimped mining cards at the same cost as non-gimped mining cards, and the resell rate of gimped cards are going to be horrible once the next generation cards are released.

IMO, if they never made LHR cards for the current generation of cards, it would have been better for the gamers, because if they made the next generation of cards LHR cards, then any gamer with a current gen card would be able to resell their card to a miner and be able to buy a next gen LHR card. Instead, it's having the reverse effect of screwing gamers, and instead favoring the miners.

Thoughts?
 

pippenainteasy

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Mining is only partially responsible for the elevated prices right now, no doubt. Otherwise consoles wouldn’t be scalped right now either. There will be selling of mining cards when proof of stake comes around, but likely demand is high enough that used cards will still command a premium over msrp.
 
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noko

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Many thought/indicated that the LHA cards would allow cards to be more readily available to the gamers. It made zero difference in the price and availability, looks like it made it worst but now Nvidia has a precedent for restricting more features on a card. For miners, they are a PIA, so when the next wave of GPUs come out the miners will go after the new cards vice used LHA cards, making the next generation demand go up and resale value for the gamers not as high. Good for Nvidia, bad for everyone else.
 

applegrcoug

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One point worth noting...

The lhr is only effective at restricting ethash algorithms. It still runs full for the others that miners will flock to later.
 

crazycrave

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I would ask if you sold your video card with 2019-20 pricing for profit and then buy an overpriced upgrade as the 3080GTX dropped a lot of jaws when it arrived .
 

noko

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One point worth noting...

The lhr is only effective at restricting ethash algorithms. It still runs full for the others that miners will flock to later.
On other algorithms, the card acts funky (3080Ti) depending it seems on what driver one is using. For example ERGO (ERG), very narrow memory band to allow full mining rate, a slight variation and the hash rate goes down almost 50%. Variations in power settings causes weird swings in mining hashrates etc. It is an interaction with firmware and drivers is my guess. Anyways they are still profitable meaning dedicated miners will just buy more of them to make what they need -> making the situation worst.
 

chameleoneel

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So, I'm catching back up on 5 years of being away from the computer hardware building/overclocking arena.

Okay, so LHR cards (Lite Hash Rate) are now being made to deter crypto miners from buying graphics cards, right? Well, that's a horrible idea, and here's why.

  1. Resellers are still selling the LHR cards at 2x or 3x MSRP rate like they're still FHR cards. For example, the RTX 3060Ti's MSRP was $399. They're selling still selling at resellers for ~$900 as I type this, and those are the LHR cards. No miner will buy those cards, and no gamer is going to buy those cards at those prices, either. Also, until the prices drop back down to MSRP, AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel have no incentive to race with the next generation of cards, because they can't be priced based on the previous generation's MSRP.
  2. People are speculating that once Ethereum 2.0 starts, meaning that it goes from Proof of Work (PoW, basically mining crypto) to Proof of Stake (PoS, there's no more mining, just staking crypto and getting percentage yields), that GPU prices will get back to normal. That's ridiculous. Cryptocurrency isn't going away any time, soon. Neither is mining. All the Ethereum miners will just start mining another PoW cryptocurrency.
  3. Let's say Person A buys a RTX 3060Ti LHR card for $900, and Person B bought a RTX 3060Ti FHR card for $900. A year or two goes by, and a RTX 4060Ti LHR gets released for $449 MSRP. Person A's RTX 3060Ti LHR card is now worth $300 used. No miner will buy that card. Person B's RTX 3060Ti FHR card is now worth way more, or equal to, the RTX 4060Ti LHR, based on the RTX 4060Ti's LHR hashrate.
  4. Even if prices for LHR cards go back down near the MSRP rate, they'll still be bought by miners, because it's based on Rate of Return (RoR). Basically, based on the hashrate and Watts a card has, how many days will it take to mine with that card to make up for the cost of that card? For example, if a $900 RTX 3060Ti FHR has a RoR of 180 days (6 months), and a RTX 3060Ti LHR mines at 66% of the FHR's capability, then once a RTX 3060Ti LHR's price gets to $600 (which is still $200 above MSRP), the RoR is still the same, so the miner is still going to buy the LHR card based on the price than a gamer is.
No matter what, the gamer is screwed. They're buying gimped mining cards at the same cost as non-gimped mining cards, and the resell rate of gimped cards are going to be horrible once the next generation cards are released.

IMO, if they never made LHR cards for the current generation of cards, it would have been better for the gamers, because if they made the next generation of cards LHR cards, then any gamer with a current gen card would be able to resell their card to a miner and be able to buy a next gen LHR card. Instead, it's having the reverse effect of screwing gamers, and instead favoring the miners.

Thoughts?
The shortages suck. But, I don't think Nvidia, AMD, or Intel have any duty to our resell value.
 

motqalden

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Its funny that people throw around the scalper term . Pretty much anyone selling seems to be scalping their used cards. Finally get an expensive 3090? Cool i"ll just sell my used 3080 for twice what i payed for it. Very few if any people are being reasonable and everyone want to cash in and blame someone else but almost everyone is part of the problem.
 

RPGWiZaRD

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Just make it illegal to buy and resell electronics, sanitary, health products etc for the sole purpose of profitize for own gain, it's more harm than good especially as the scalper won't pay any taxes off its sales eitherway. It's a middleman noone needs or wants and brings personal gain for such a small group of people that it's irrelevant. Yes the prices will still go up when demand is much higher than supply but I'd much rather pay the manufacturer of the product than a low-life scalper.
 

applegrcoug

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Just make it illegal to buy and resell electronics, sanitary, health products etc for the sole purpose of profitize for own gain, it's more harm than good especially as the scalper won't pay any taxes off its sales eitherway. It's a middleman noone needs or wants and brings personal gain for such a small group of people that it's irrelevant. Yes the prices will still go up when demand is much higher than supply but I'd much rather pay the manufacturer of the product than a low-life scalper.
nah, dont need to make it illegal...just get the department of revenue involved more like with a car.

like here, if you dare sell a car to your buddy for say a hundred bucks, and then your buddy goes to register it, he will have to pay sales tax...
But dang, you dared sell it to him for less than what the states book says it is worth, so that tax will instead not be collected on the sale price but what they think the value should be.

They could just make it so onerous, no one would want to sell a GPU. Like put some energy taxes on stuff too....
 
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crazycrave

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It's crazy how one reaction sets off a chain reaction like Covid = Stimulus Checks = Amazon buying = Cargo Prices = Port of LA jammed with cargo ships that dropped an anchor onto pipe line and 13 million gallons of oil spill is now killing everything .. but I hope they get there fresh supply of mining cards as there real money makers ..lol
 

legcramp

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It's crazy how one reaction sets off a chain reaction like Covid = Stimulus Checks = Amazon buying = Cargo Prices = Port of LA jammed with cargo ships that dropped an anchor onto pipe line and 13 million gallons of oil spill is now killing everything .. but I hope they get there fresh supply of mining cards as there real money makers ..lol
Had plans for catching lobster this weekend.. that got canceled because of the oil spill :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

philb2

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They must be living paycheck to paycheck if theyre willing to waste time standing in line for a flip as little as that.

Same as black friday mentality
Maybe and maybe not. Maybe they make more than that, but not so much more that they can spend without careful consideration. Or maybe they (or their parents ...) have suffered significant financial deprevation in their lives, which has left a permanent emotional scar. Think of the generation that lived (or grew up) during the Great Depression in the 1930s. Those people became "savers" for all their lives.

Of course, waiting on line for hours and hours isn't exactly free. There are family and job considerations, and there is always the "quality of life" issue, because waiting on line for hours ain't exactly fun.
 

Nebell

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You'd be crazy not to mine as a gamer, especially if you have a RTX 3080. That card earns some $8/day, and say you game 12 hours per day, that's $4/day, $120/month, nearly $3000/2 years, which is when you'd have a free top end video card every new gen! Or two RTX 4080, or a brand new high end computer.
Or a brand new computer. Hating on mining as a gamer is stupid.
 

celwin

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You'd be crazy not to mine as a gamer, especially if you have a RTX 3080. That card earns some $8/day, and say you game 12 hours per day, that's $4/day, $120/month, nearly $3000/2 years, which is when you'd have a free top end video card every new gen! Or two RTX 4080, or a brand new high end computer.
Or a brand new computer. Hating on mining as a gamer is stupid.
$8 a day? Not hating on mining, but unless you are broke or have an under paying job, not worth it. Those who buy 3080 + cards to game I would imagine are not in that class. I may be completely wrong, but gamers with 3090, 4k big screen monitors are most likely upper middle class and not looking to mine to offset cost. It simply goes as entertainment budget expense.
 

lawlz_xd

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$8 a day? Not hating on mining, but unless you are broke or have an under paying job, not worth it. Those who buy 3080 + cards to game I would imagine are not in that class. I may be completely wrong, but gamers with 3090, 4k big screen monitors are most likely upper middle class and not looking to mine to offset cost. It simply goes as entertainment budget expense.
I don't see what a person's finances or salary has anything to do with it. Whether a person is making minimum wage or six-figures a year, why not make passive income? You have nothing to lose from mining when you aren't gaming with your rig. Even when you factor in electricity costs (~$0.1/kWh), you still make about $7/day with a 3080 or $3.5/12 hrs assuming you want to game for 12 hrs/day x 7 days a week. If you're one of the lucky ones and purchased it at the $700 MSRP, you pay off the card in 7 months.
 

TED

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Free money is free money. I work a full time job. If I ever find a card in stock you know I'm going to mine with it when I'm at work and asleep. You telling me you wouldn't pick up a 20 if you see it on the sidewalk on your way into work?
 

celwin

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Free money is free money. I work a full time job. If I ever find a card in stock you know I'm going to mine with it when I'm at work and asleep. You telling me you wouldn't pick up a 20 if you see it on the sidewalk on your way into work?
I'm saying I put it up to entertainment cost much like going to a concert or a ball game. I'm not trying to recoup my cost as I see it as disposable income. No knock on anyone who does. Just a different take.
 

philb2

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I don't see what a person's finances or salary has anything to do with it. Whether a person is making minimum wage or six-figures a year, why not make passive income? You have nothing to lose from mining when you aren't gaming with your rig. Even when you factor in electricity costs (~$0.1/kWh), you still make about $7/day with a 3080 or $3.5/12 hrs assuming you want to game for 12 hrs/day x 7 days a week. If you're one of the lucky ones and purchased it at the $700 MSRP, you pay off the card in 7 months.
I think you are missing the point of the previous post. The card doesn't just show up on your doorstep, effort-free. You have to make a considerable effort to first get the card. You aren't addressing this point.
 

philb2

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Free money is free money. I work a full time job. If I ever find a card in stock you know I'm going to mine with it when I'm at work and asleep. You telling me you wouldn't pick up a 20 if you see it on the sidewalk on your way into work?
Please see my message #357 to lawlz_xd . People aren't leaving 3090s on the sidewalk just waiting to be picked upl
 

Digital Viper-X-

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Mining is only partially responsible for the elevated prices right now, no doubt. Otherwise consoles wouldn’t be scalped right now either. There will be selling of mining cards when proof of stake comes around, but likely demand is high enough that used cards will still command a premium over msrp.
you're not mining on your xbox series x??
 

kirbyrj

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Of course, waiting on line for hours and hours isn't exactly free.

It is according to this forum. I asked the question about the "scalping" rules wondering why people's time and effort wasn't worth something when calculating the "cost" of the card. I was told tough shit.
 

defaultluser

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RDNA2 is just fine for mining. 62MH @ 100-110w is a win for me :D.

Also I was kidding ^^
(but if someone was able to mine on it, it would probably outperform desktop cards as it has higher memory bandwidth)


Right, this is the same reason why LHR cards are still selling well - until they disable the feature entirely, yo can still make money with these things purchased at retail.

People will mine on whatever they can make money off!

The only reason someone can't mine on that Series X is because they haven't ported a program over yet , but it's only a matter of time (all that is required is to port it to Metro)
 
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philb2

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It is according to this forum. I asked the question about the "scalping" rules wondering why people's time and effort wasn't worth something when calculating the "cost" of the card. I was told tough shit.
kirbyrj

When it is a decision about waiting in line, or endlessly (and I mean OCD-level) checking stores, discord, etc, I don't really if other people think their time is free, and therefore so should mine. That's my decision alone to make. As for being told "tough ---," that reflects badly on the people making that statement. You kirbyrj are a free person allowed to make your own decisions as you see fit.
 

kirbyrj

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kirbyrj

When it is a decision about waiting in line, or endlessly (and I mean OCD-level) checking stores, discord, etc, I don't really if other people think their time is free, and therefore so should mine. That's my decision alone to make. As for being told "tough ---," that reflects badly on the people making that statement. You kirbyrj are a free person allowed to make your own decisions as you see fit.

I agree. If someone spends hours tracking down something that is hard to find and sells it for more than retail cost, I have no problem with it. At the same time, I don't fault people for trying to pay the lowest they can for something either. Nor do I fault those who refuse to pay a nickel over MSRP.

But as to whether or not LHR cards were ever a good idea...I think the fact that you still can't buy cards outright after several months shows that it didn't make any difference. The fact that you can't buy a PS5 or XBX readily either which can't mine at all should show us something.
 

Slade

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I have a nice rig with a 3090. I mine because it's extra spending money. Tracking a Z06 isn't cheap. I picked up 4 more cards in store/evga queue at msrp. It's not like I waited in any lines. I just saw they were in stock and said I want that card. 1 Rig is hooked up to my entertainment center. I play pc games which use a game pad there on my couch. It also has my racing wheel setup on it. A second mining rig is upstairs in living room acting as a htpc for the family TV and I play pc kids games with my 2 year old on it.
 

Sycraft

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$8 a day? Not hating on mining, but unless you are broke or have an under paying job, not worth it. Those who buy 3080 + cards to game I would imagine are not in that class. I may be completely wrong, but gamers with 3090, 4k big screen monitors are most likely upper middle class and not looking to mine to offset cost. It simply goes as entertainment budget expense.
Particularly since mining can be hard on a card and break it, and RMAs are not a pleasant process right now. $8/day, even if that were guaranteed and factoring in all costs like electricity and AC, is just not enough to make me want to risk damaging my expensive toy. I want a high end GPU more than a want a little bit of money that I might get, if the market for it is good at the time and the exchanges are working and so on.
 

crazycrave

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I don't have highend because I learned not to chase the best after my 6800 Ultra ..

But to pay a lower price is another way of paying for it as why my hardware is in 2019 prices ..
 

ChosenUno

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When my Legion 5 Pro with a 3070 arrives you bet your ass I'm gonna mine on it whenever I'm not using it. Just mining while I sleep for 8 hours over the course of 2 years is almost 1/2 the price of the machine. Otherwise it's just gonna sit there and not be productive while depreciating every day.

Sure I'd waste some longevity, but I'd get money to invest in a new laptop, shortening my upgrade cycle. Plus I haven't seen conclusive evidence that 24/7 mining on electronics actually do significant harm if it's well-cooled, well-maintained and not overclocked/overvolted.
 

noko

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Particularly since mining can be hard on a card and break it, and RMAs are not a pleasant process right now. $8/day, even if that were guaranteed and factoring in all costs like electricity and AC, is just not enough to make me want to risk damaging my expensive toy. I want a high end GPU more than a want a little bit of money that I might get, if the market for it is good at the time and the exchanges are working and so on.
New World indicates otherwise.
 

Koldur

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New World indicates otherwise.
New World just exposes manufacturing issues. Cards that are built correctly, do not have issues in these cases.

The cards that broke down seem to only be in the hundreds, that could have happened on other games as well. These messages go viral immediately, that is a problem of the internet and social media at this moment.

EVGA even admitted it was a problem with solder joints.
 

flegg

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It's is not about the time/energy cost to a lot of these people. They actually enjoy that shit it is a craze
 

kirbyrj

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New World just exposes manufacturing issues. Cards that are built correctly, do not have issues in these cases.

The cards that broke down seem to only be in the hundreds, that could have happened on other games as well. These messages go viral immediately, that is a problem of the internet and social media at this moment.

EVGA even admitted it was a problem with solder joints.

In fairness, it was poorly coded. They didn't cap the framerates on the menus and it was pushing pixels at something silly like 600+ FPS when it was completely unnecessary IIRC.
 
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