Leave FFXI for WoW?

bonkrowave said:
WoW is a MMORPG ... not just an MMO there is a difference
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Perhaps I'm just missing it, but I don't see how what anything you said bears on the discussion of whether Guild Wars is an MMO, which is what ]|[ Mar']['in ]|[ and I were discussing. What is your point, exactly?
 
bipolar said:
Fine then, give me your definition of an MMO, and I'll tell you if it fits it. Be as descriptive as possible as to what makes up an MMO and why Diablo II is not one.
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Persistent worlds. Diablo and the like do not have persistent world. Games that are called MMOs generally have a world that all the players are connected to at once for most of the content (With the exception of instances, of course).

Guild wars is almost 100% instanced, and doesn't have a single persistent world :)

Not saying that GW is a bad game by any stretch, but that's generally the difference.
 
bipolar said:
Fine then, give me your definition of an MMO, and I'll tell you if it fits it. Be as descriptive as possible as to what makes up an MMO and why Diablo II is not one.
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I guess the best way to compare WoW and D2 is by comparing Massively Multi-Player to "Lots of People play it on the internet"

Diablo 2, while millions of people are online, there's 8 people per game. Sure WoW is the same basically on a larger scale (1000's I guess?)

In WoW, if we wanted, 5,000 people on the server could meet up in one place and battle it out because it's all the same world.

Is guild wars like this? Or is there some sort of separation?

I'll keep trying to think of ways to make myself clearer :(

bipolar said:
Perhaps I'm just missing it, but I don't see how what anything you said bears on the discussion of whether Guild Wars is an MMO, which is what ]|[ Mar']['in ]|[ and I were discussing. What is your point, exactly?
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No idea either :p
 
CatsGoMoo said:
Persistent worlds. Diablo and the like do not have persistent world. Games that are called MMOs generally have a world that all the players are connected to at once for most of the content (With the exception of instances, of course).

Guild wars is almost 100% instanced, and doesn't have a single persistent world :)

Not saying that GW is a bad game by any stretch, but that's generally the difference.
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That's exactly what I was wanting to know and trying to say.
 
CatsGoMoo said:
Persistent worlds. Diablo and the like do not have persistent world. Games that are called MMOs generally have a world that all the players are connected to at once for most of the content (With the exception of instances, of course).

Guild wars is almost 100% instanced, and doesn't have a single persistent world :)

Not saying that GW is a bad game by any stretch, but that's generally the difference.
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That is an interesting point. What exactly is meant by 'persistant'; i.e., how would one know whether a world is persistant or not. I suppose it would entail having the possibility of anyone on that server cross your path at any given time.

I've only played the E3 demo from last year, so I'm not entirely certain on whether quest areas are persistant or not; clearly, the PVP battlefields are instanced on a case-by-case basis, but isn't there a common area where you could theoretically interact with any other area? I ran into hundreds of people in the city, people who were just standing around, or trading, or chatting. How much of a world must be persistant before it is deemed an MMO?

I think there is no definitive line between MMO and non-MMO. It is a matter of degrees. Clearly, a game like UT2k4 would be outside the MMO field, but Diablo II would be on the fringe, WoW and the like would be "mainstream" MMOs, and Guild Wars would be somewhere in the middle.
 
bipolar said:
That is an interesting point. What exactly is meant by 'persistant'; i.e., how would one know whether a world is persistant or not. I suppose it would entail having the possibility of anyone on that server cross your path at any given time..
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Read what I said above about the 5000 people and crap.
 
]|[ Mar']['in ]|[ said:
I guess the best way to compare WoW and D2 is by comparing Massively Multi-Player to "Lots of People play it on the internet"

Diablo 2, while millions of people are online, there's 8 people per game. Sure WoW is the same basically on a larger scale (1000's I guess?)

In WoW, if we wanted, 5,000 people on the server could meet up in one place and battle it out because it's all the same world.

Is guild wars like this? Or is there some sort of separation?

I'll keep trying to think of ways to make myself clearer :(
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Hundreds of people can meet up in the common areas to trade and such, but the PvP battlefields are instanced and limited to something like 4 v 4 (exact numbers will vary, as I last played it a year ago).

It's an interesting game; more akin in many ways to UT2k4 with persistant characters and classes. You don't play for the quests, as in WoW or even Diablo II -- you play for the enjoyment of brief PvP encounters, much like you play UT2k4 capture the flag games that last only minutes.
 
bipolar said:
Hundreds of people can meet up in the common areas to trade and such, but the PvP battlefields are instanced and limited to something like 4 v 4 (exact numbers will vary, as I last played it a year ago).

It's an interesting game; more akin in many ways to UT2k4 with persistant characters and classes. You don't play for the quests, as in WoW or even Diablo II -- you play for the enjoyment of brief PvP encounters, much like you play UT2k4 capture the flag games that last only minutes.
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Ah I see. So that's how they are able to get by with no monthly fees.
 
]|[ Mar']['in ]|[ said:
Ah I see. So that's how they are able to get by with no monthly fees.
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Well... they still have dozens (hundreds?) of servers to maintain, just as any MMO. I think they're trying out another model, where "expansion packs" will be released every 3 months or so, probably at $20-30 each. These will provide new abilities for your characters. I've heard it compared to card games like Magic: The Gathering, with new expansions being like the booster packs you can buy.

I think it will be a fun game, but it's not about PvE questing like in WoW. I think it will appeal more to the Q3/UT crowd. Whether they will market it this way remains to be seen.
 
bipolar said:
Well... they still have dozens (hundreds?) of servers to maintain, just as any MMO. I think they're trying out another model, where "expansion packs" will be released every 3 months or so, probably at $20-30 each. These will provide new abilities for your characters. I've heard it compared to card games like Magic: The Gathering, with new expansions being like the booster packs you can buy.

I think it will be a fun game, but it's not about PvE questing like in WoW. I think it will appeal more to the Q3/UT crowd. Whether they will market it this way remains to be seen.
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Yeah. I can understand that. I've always been more of an RTS player and really like the idea of being "part of an army". Forming large raids and laying waste to a city is just awesome.
 
]|[ Mar']['in ]|[ said:
Yeah. I can understand that. I've always been more of an RTS player and really like the idea of being "part of an army". Forming large raids and laying waste to a city is just awesome.
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Don't suppose you play AoM? :) I'm going to be playing quite a bit tonight, be fun to do some 2 v 2.
 
bipolar said:
I think it will be a fun game, but it's not about PvE questing like in WoW. I think it will appeal more to the Q3/UT crowd. Whether they will market it this way remains to be seen.
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are you kidding? its not about questing? you have to go along with the storyline and quests to continue in the game, and to get better in skills. Your role playing character has to be a good character for your PVP character to be good. You unlock skills on your RP char so your PVPchar can use them. Dont know how you say it appeals more to the Q3/UT crowd. please explain.
 
-RIP-Crayak said:
are you kidding? its not about questing? you have to go along with the storyline and quests to continue in the game, and to get better in skills. Your role playing character has to be a good character for your PVP character to be good. You unlock skills on your RP char so your PVPchar can use them. Dont know how you say it appeals more to the Q3/UT crowd. please explain.
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From my experience playing it, the game is much more oriented towards the PvP instanced arenas. It is unlike PvP in other games, in that the people participating are locked in -- more people can't join halfway through the battle. 4 vs 4 in a ~60 second match that has zero consequences -- you don't die, don't need to retrieve a corpse or work off xp debt. It has all the "meaningfulness" to your character that losing a game of CTF in UT2k4 does.

From everything I've read, the focus will be on these PvP arenas, much more so than the questing. I've even heard rumors that characters who don't want to do PvE will have the option of starting off at a fairly high level immediately, so they can jump right into PvP.

The game is about finding a few people to party up with, working out an ideal strategy for optimal usage of skills and spells, and then sparring with another team. This is exactly what clans in Q3, CS:S, or UT do as well, with the obvious difference that those games aren't class/skill-tree based.
 
bipolar said:
From my experience playing it, the game is much more oriented towards the PvP instanced arenas. It is unlike PvP in other games, in that the people participating are locked in -- more people can't join halfway through the battle. 4 vs 4 in a ~60 second match that has zero consequences -- you don't die, don't need to retrieve a corpse or work off xp debt. It has all the "meaningfulness" to your character that losing a game of CTF in UT2k4 does.

From everything I've read, the focus will be on these PvP arenas, much more so than the questing. I've even heard rumors that characters who don't want to do PvE will have the option of starting off at a fairly high level immediately, so they can jump right into PvP.

The game is about finding a few people to party up with, working out an ideal strategy for optimal usage of skills and spells, and then sparring with another team. This is exactly what clans in Q3, CS:S, or UT do as well, with the obvious difference that those games aren't class/skill-tree based.
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How long ago did you play it? and as for consequences for dieing in an RPG, cant realy recall any rpgs where you lose things in battle. and its not a 4vs4 60 second battle. and from everything youve read about it you should try playing it more before you start to critisize it. As for the starting off at the highest level in the begining? yes you can. but youll have a crap character if you havent done anything with a regular char. You have to unlock skills and other items on your reg char to use them on a pvp char. and what game isnt about getting with a group of people to find an ideal strategy to use optima skills for the group. unless you like solo'ing. you dont have to compare that to FPS you should be comparing that to all other games.
 
-RIP-Crayak said:
How long ago did you play it? and as for consequences for dieing in an RPG, cant realy recall any rpgs where you lose things in battle. and its not a 4vs4 60 second battle. and from everything youve read about it you should try playing it more before you start to critisize it. As for the starting off at the highest level in the begining? yes you can. but youll have a crap character if you havent done anything with a regular char. You have to unlock skills and other items on your reg char to use them on a pvp char. and what game isnt about getting with a group of people to find an ideal strategy to use optima skills for the group. unless you like solo'ing. you dont have to compare that to FPS you should be comparing that to all other games.
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Who said I was criticizing it? I plan on picking it up when it comes out next month. I think anyone who says the emphasis is on exploring the world and PvE as opposed to instanced small and short PvP battles is being disingenuous at the least, however.

I stand by what I said in that gameplay-wise, the PvP will resemble, say, TFC much more closely than it will resemble Everquest's PvP; and that, as the emphasis on the game is strongly PvP, it is a fair comparison to make. I'm not sure why you think that should be taken as a criticism.
 
I thought Guild Wars was supposed to have no monthly fees, If they are going to sell expansion packs for $20-$30 every 3 months that about $10 /month. :p I guess they realized all those servers couldn't be maintained without some form of revenue stream other than new game sales.
 
a36steel said:
I thought Guild Wars was supposed to have no monthly fees, If they are going to sell expansion packs for $20-$30 every 3 months that about $10 /month. :p I guess they realized all those servers couldn't be maintained without some form of revenue stream other than new game sales.
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That's been their plan the whole time. One doesn't need to purchase the expansion packs to play, so technically you can play for free forever, after the initial purchase.

Consider Everquest, though. Not only did they have a monthly fee, they had what, 7? 8? expansion packs. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! :)
 
bipolar said:
Who said I was criticizing it? I plan on picking it up when it comes out next month. I think anyone who says the emphasis is on exploring the world and PvE as opposed to instanced small and short PvP battles is being disingenuous at the least, however.

I stand by what I said in that gameplay-wise, the PvP will resemble, say, TFC much more closely than it will resemble Everquest's PvP; and that, as the emphasis on the game is strongly PvP, it is a fair comparison to make. I'm not sure why you think that should be taken as a criticism.
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The emphasis is on Having to participate and questing and PvE to even stand a remote chance to PvP. And if you only played in the Open Gladiator arena sure those last a good 60 sec. if they cant PvP, but have you been in a real Guild War battle between 2 large guilds at their guild halls. I guess not, because those last a while if the teams are right. And about comparing Everquest to GW, i wouldnt know i played UO, and i never played EQ, besides phase 3&4 of beta. The game is balance between PvP and PvE becuase one cannot live without the other. Ill stand by what i said when i say it compares in no way to TFC. I dont see it as a fair comparison, and im not taking it as a criticism unless youve been playing the beta weekends every month.
 
Do not start WOW. (period)

Trust me, you DO NOT want the aggrivation caused by blizzards imcompetence to run the game servers..

Everyother day servers will go down for *emergency maintainence*.. emergency means out of nowhere, unexpected... but you can always count on blizzard and their servers to go down when the clock hits 9pm prime time.




Do yourself a favor, start another game.. atleast untill blizzard get their act together about the servers...
 
Emret said:
Do not start WOW. (period)

Trust me, you DO NOT want the aggrivation caused by blizzards imcompetence to run the game servers..

Everyother day servers will go down for *emergency maintainence*.. emergency means out of nowhere, unexpected... but you can always count on blizzard and their servers to go down when the clock hits 9pm prime time.




Do yourself a favor, start another game.. atleast untill blizzard get their act together about the servers...
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Simply not true

GG
 
bonkrowave said:
Simply not true

GG
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not true? are you fucking serious?

I have started this game at 3/3/05 and I already have 6 days bonus which was offered for compensation for the down times when the servers were down for a period of over 24hours at a time..

I am not mentioning the regular prime time downtimes which are not compensated either.

Have you heard the term "terrible twenty" ? Go search for it
 
Emret said:
not true? are you fucking serious?

I have started this game at 3/3/05 and I already have 6 days bonus which was offered for compensation for the down times when the servers were down for a period of over 24hours at a time..

I am not mentioning the regular prime time downtimes which are not compensated either.

Have you heard the term "terrible twenty" ? Go search for it
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However Mr. Emret...I think you are becoming part of the minority here. I've been on Tich for a few months now and only 3x have I not been able to play exactly when I wanted too. And for Mr. Bonko to say "it isn't that bad" means Blizzard has come along way from a few months ago. The amount of "Blizz sucks" threads has greatly diminished which is probally proof positive (because of how easily people at the [H] vent) that servers are becoming more stable and usable.

And by mentioning that you are not mentioning you're are mentioning :D

-tReP
 
Emret said:
not true? are you fucking serious?

I have started this game at 3/3/05 and I already have 6 days bonus which was offered for compensation for the down times when the servers were down for a period of over 24hours at a time..

I am not mentioning the regular prime time downtimes which are not compensated either.

Have you heard the term "terrible twenty" ? Go search for it
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I play on two servers ... Eonar ... my main, and Stormscale my Alt. I really think you need to calm down. There is no such thing as the terrible 20, there are only 8 realms that seam to have more problems then the rest.

If you did get 6 free days, which I doubt ,and you are so addicted to the game that 6 days without WOW, over a four month period is to much for you, then you really need to evaluate if you are spending to much time playing.

And I am not even close to being a fan-boi. Anyone else on this forum will attest to that fact. I often complained about the stability of the servers and the poor customer support they have. The facts are clear tho, that the servers have been getting much better.
 
And I am not even close to being a fan-boi. Anyone else on this forum will attest to that fact. I often complained about the stability of the servers and the poor customer support they have. The facts are clear tho, that the servers have been getting much better.
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Bonkorave is a "fan-boi"... he's just in denial, lol. It's a love-hate relationship. :D

By the way Bonko, he said he started playing on March 3rd, which is less than a month ago. So, if he got 6 days credited already that would be a lot.

If the POS Roleplay server Silverhand is any indication, I can believe the 6 day credit story Emret stated. I had to ditch that server and move to a new one (thanks Blizzard) because everything Emret stated in this post was true about that server up until the time I abandoned it recently.

At least this new server I'm on is a lot better and makes Bonko and Trep seem less insane and like "fan-boi"s. But if the only experience I had to go by was the horrible Silverhand server or Emret's server then I would have no choice but to believe you both were crazy when saying things are getting better.
 
I rarely have a problem where both my main(Shadowmoon) and my alt(Stormscale) are down at the same time.
 
Astral Abyss said:
At least this new server I'm on is a lot better and makes Bonko and Trep seem less insane and like "fan-boi"s. But if the only experience I had to go by was the horrible Silverhand server or Emret's server then I would have no choice but to believe you both were crazy when saying things are getting better.
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I resent this ...... I am still entirely insane.

:p
 
bonkrowave said:
I play on two servers ... Eonar ... my main, and Stormscale my Alt. I really think you need to calm down. There is no such thing as the terrible 20, there are only 8 realms that seam to have more problems then the rest.

If you did get 6 free days, which I doubt ,and you are so addicted to the game that 6 days without WOW, over a four month period is to much for you, then you really need to evaluate if you are spending to much time playing.

And I am not even close to being a fan-boi. Anyone else on this forum will attest to that fact. I often complained about the stability of the servers and the poor customer support they have. The facts are clear tho, that the servers have been getting much better.
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I feel genuinely insulted being a called a "fan boi" because I'm on a server which does not have as many problems and I state as such.

If Blizzard fell off the face of the planet I would not care because my guild would just find a new game to play. I play MMO’s because of friends…not the people who make it. Our guild started with D2…to EQ…to DAOC…Horizons…and now to WoW. We dabbled in Dungeon Siege, SWG, and EQ2 but the popularity wasn’t there.

The problems I have seen are in line with my expectations of the game. Just because my expectations may be lower than yours doesn’t make me a “fan boi”; it makes me a realist. Blizzard is meeting my expectations and I didn’t set them that high because I figured this is how it would be in the first place. I truely expect every week to have "scheduled" downtime and I expect every week to have at least one unexpected reboot/crash. I expect there to be bugs which people will abuse and I expect there to be bugs which will cripple a class to the point of making it non-fun. I expect the nerf bat to come out violently every once and a while too. I expect people to whine that they can't get every ounce of content out of the game only play 2 hours a week and I expect people to whine that play 40 hours a week that can't get end game content because they suck in a team enviroment.

In the past few weeks Bonko has calmed down alot. My assumption is that the server performance is starting to come near desired expectations. The amount of bitching/praising a person does is typically in relation to how far above or below the said item/event is. Since an expectation is relative and not FACT, I take most of what people say here worth a grain of salt. Most peeps here are extremest one way or another. Yep...a 6600GT pwns a 9800pro. :rolleyes:

-tReP
 
wowcredit.JPG


need i say more?
 
Oh, my server, Kel'Thuzad as of 4/2/05 12:00AM MT is down on a friday night.

need i say more?
 
MemoryInAGarden said:
^ Very, very nice
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Since you just bought your game, I cant tell if you are being sarcastic, or you liked it becuase I got 36 days for free..


Trust me I'd rather play and pay normally than get compensated for crappy service

They cant compensate for what little hours I play the game for, and I was unable to because of their incompetence to run decent servers
 
Emret said:
Since you just bought your game, I cant tell if you are being sarcastic, or you liked it becuase I got 36 days for free..


Trust me I'd rather play and pay normally than get compensated for crappy service

They cant compensate for what little hours I play the game for, and I was unable to because of their incompetence to run decent servers
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Let's see you run that servers with close to over 2,000,000 characters, people constantly logging in and out, and several hundred thousand people on at any given time any better than Blizzard is doing. Shutting the server down for a patch? Well how the hell else are they going to apply it?
 
I'm on Stormscale and have yet to notice problems with any servers, YET. The one good thing about FF was that there was hardly ever any server problems.
 
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