LCD Monitors with the darkest blacks

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morris

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I spend a lot of time working on video in a dark room so I need to find a 23-24" monitor with very dark blacks.

I'm trying to find out what suitable monitors are available. Ideally I'm looking for a 16:9 1920x1080 monitor, but a 16:10 1920x1200 would be OK if it meets my other requirements. One of the most important things of all is dark blacks, ideally lower than 0.05 cd/m² - the lower the better. I also need a monitor that can operate at a low brightness, preferably less than 100 cd/m². It needs to be relatively cheap as well.

The only monitor I know of so far that fulfills these requirements is the Samsung F2380. It appears to have quite a few problems though. Most of them I could probably live with, but the ghosting is a bit of a worry. I don't play games but I am concerned that the ghosting might be evident whilst watching video. Does anyone know if this is a problem?

If anyone can suggest any suitable monitors it would be very much appreciated. I've been searching the review sites but I've not come up with much yet.
 
Any LCD with LED backlighting should fit the bill.
If those are too costly for you, look for VA panels such as MVA or PVA.
 
astroguy said:
Any LCD with LED backlighting should fit the bill.
If those are too costly for you, look for VA panels such as MVA or PVA.
Click to expand...

LED back-lighting does not always imply local-dimming, but LED backlights are easier to dim than CCFL by nature. However how dark you can set the backlight is still dependent on the panel controls anyway. So I don't think "any" LED-back-lit panel will work.

I don't think there yet exist any monitors with local-dimming, so you're going to want to find something with good native ("static") contrast. IIRC, PVA-type panels have the best native contrast, compared to TN and IPS.
 
Well,

The 23" Samsung F2380 PVA panel reportedly has about the best black and contrast ratio that I've heard of. And it's priced well at about $300, currently, down from about $350.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
 
Surely 2408wfp S-PVA panel. Worth for money and tons of connections. The only problem is horizontal color shift and slight backlight inhomogeneity (but these are common for almost any PVA panel). Which has much better black than my U2410 and 2490wuxi.
 
Kaldskryke said:
LED back-lighting does not always imply local-dimming, but LED backlights are easier to dim than CCFL by nature. However how dark you can set the backlight is still dependent on the panel controls anyway. So I don't think "any" LED-back-lit panel will work.

I don't think there yet exist any monitors with local-dimming, so you're going to want to find something with good native ("static") contrast. IIRC, PVA-type panels have the best native contrast, compared to TN and IPS.
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Exactly.

There is LED-backlit via edge lighting, and then there is "full array" LED backlighting where there are many, many individual LEDs behind the panel that can be selectively dimmed as the elements being displayed require.

To my knowledge, all computer monitors currently available are edge-lit via LED rather than via full-array LED. So, you're really not getting much of a difference in black levels over old fashioned CFL backlighting.
 
PVA, probably the 2408, but there are a few 23" models as well. LED backlighting (full array with local dimming vs edge lit) is not yet prevalent with PVA screens, so if you are buying right now, CCFL plus S-PVA fits your bill.
Could be a year or so before the LED backlights come to S-PVA models because the economics right now are slowing Samsung down. LED backlights (good ones, but still with white LED's) will help contrast and aid in getting lower black levels, but they are not available right now with the panel type PVA that gives you the best black levels.
 
Also if you're working with video I'd recommend a 16:10 monitor...

The think one of the reasons they had 16:10 monitors vs. 16:9 is so that when you are editing video there is a little extra space for tool-bars etc. but if you had just a 16:9 monitor there'd be no room on the preview itself. I know editing in Vegas 9 the preview monitor has toolbars / info on the top and bottom which are handy to have.

You won't find any LCD that has good black' / color reproduction for cheap... I do HD Video editing but nothing critical... but I'm using a 3007WFP-HC... the advantage is I get a full 720p preview while editing, and another 3/4 of the screen for my timeline / project media etc. everything else I need. I used to have 2 x 24" 1920 x 1200 monitors and was too much of a pain to keep turning my head to see what the changes looked like... but with this setup I can see it all on one screen and it's quite nice.

Just an idea... GL
 
At this point, the only 16:9 monitor I know of that is not TN is the 27" iMac (2560x1440 IPS), which is way out of your price range.

Generally speaking, TN panels have the worst blacks and LED doesn't help much with this. Good VA panels have the best blacks of any LCD, but are the slowest LCD panels. Good IPS monitors have blacks almost as good as VA panels, can be almost as fast as TN panels, and are superior to both VA and TN panels in just about every other regard.

"Relatively cheap 1920x" and "very dark blacks" are incompatible features in the LCD market.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I only just found them. Not long after posting, my computer suffered the most horrific system failure I've ever encountered. Total meltdown. Anyway I'm back in business now.

With the monitors I'm really not sure what to do at the moment. I just recently sent back an NEC 23" IPS EA231WMi because I found that the black levels were not good enough for me. I notice that ToastyX posted a review in the EA231WMi thread stating that he got below 0.05 cd/m² from it, which is pretty low. I imagine I probably got about the same with mine (I have no tools for measuring though). This was my first LCD so I had no point of reference. I found that it looked quite bland with a lot of films, particularly black and white ones. My old CRT monitor, on the other hand, does at least go a fair way to achieving the kind of look I'm after.

This makes me wonder if LCD is going to be suitable for me at all, at least within the price range I can afford. I think I'll probably try a couple more monitors and see if I get on better with them. If not I'll probably stick with the CRT for the time being. The Samsung F2380 does look good for the darkness of the blacks, but that black crush is certainly a worry. I need to do some more research. It definitely seems like I need to be looking at VA panels.
 
This is also one of my biggest problems with LCD's, and I'm struggling to figure out what to do. I've considered going back to CRT, but there's just nothing available. I'm tired of making purchase mistakes, and I'm on a bit of a strict budget. Wasn't planning on spending much more than a couple hundred bucks on a widescreen display, but that's not working out so well for me. Yes, I've seen the FW900's. They're nice, but rare and people want so much for them, not to mention that they're getting really old now. Just don't know what to do at this point.
 
Supposing I ignore your frivolous monitor return placing a burden on retailers, I would suggest to you the EIZO EV2333W. That model measured 7000:1 static in the PRAD review.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
Supposing I ignore your frivolous monitor return placing a burden on retailers, I would suggest to you the EIZO EV2333W. That model measured 7000:1 static in the PRAD review.
Click to expand...

:eek::eek:WOW I just read that. Ezio just out contrasted the Pioneer Kuro. One of the best static contrast measurement ever.

2nd LCD Monitor with the deepest blacks would be the Samsung F2380 which once calibrated is proably one of the best displays up to a 2,000$ price point in terms of contrast and blacks. Properly calibrated the black crush is really minor and is definately not noticeble to most people.

If you are skeptical about the Samsung F2380 don't be. I own one (I use it for Xbox as it has almost no input lag) and have compared it with my Samsung 950 LED and they are very close in PQ. It destroys the Panny PZ85u plasma that we also have and is noticeable better than the Samsung LN46a750 during side by side comparisons. Best display I have ever owned when price is a factor For 240$ you can't go wrong.

Now I want that Ezio.

Edit: I had the Acer LED TN and it was horrid in terms of black level quality. The best of the LED TN's is the Samsung XL2370, according to reviews its a great TN and but will not provide deep enough blacks.
 
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*VA monitors typically have the best black levels and contrast ratios, and also the worst ghosting and highest input lag of all LCD monitors. Black crush not withstanding... :/
 
Get a Samsung 244t, if you can find one. I have compared the 244t side by side to the NEC LCD2470WNX, which uses the same panel (Samsung LTM240M2), and the 244t definitely has punchier blacks. I have compared the 2470 side by side with the LCD2490WUXi, and apart from the horizontal shift associated with PVA, I can't tell them apart.

I had a Samsung 215tw and like the 244t it seemed to emphasize contrast.
 
As I understand it, the black crush of a *VA monitor is angle-dependent, is it not?

If you increase the brightness of an S-PVA LCD enough to eliminate black crush (either using monitor controls or video card LUT controls), will it then have an effective contrast ratio just as bad or worse than an S-IPS / H-IPS?
 
NCX said:
:eek::eek:WOW I just read that. Ezio just out contrasted the Pioneer Kuro. One of the best static contrast measurement ever.
Click to expand...

?

the kuro has a much higher static contrast than 7000:1, and the sony xbr8 series also have a measured static contrast of around 7-8000:1

a properly calibrated kuro will measure 15-20,000:1 static
 
PVA black crush / gamma crush is at it's worst head on, but yes it is angle dependent.

Also, AFAIK there are no currently available local dimming or edge lit LED computer monitors, the only LEDs are 'dumb' backlit models. I'm sure that will change eventually.

If you are working in a dark room, you want to make sure that the LCD monitor you get has an adjustable backlight that can get sufficiently dim. This way, even with ~1000:1, at least the blacks are pretty dark, even if the contrast remains at 1000:1. Most computer monitors are set really, really bright, and in a dark room you sometimes cannot dim the backlight enough. On other models, when you lower the brightness below a certain point, it just crushes blacks rather than lower the backlight further. Some of the better review sites mention minimum black levels.

Pro plasmas would be a good option, but of course they are not available in 24" sizes.
 
I've got the 2370XL and the black crush is pretty bad. I don't have access to calibration gear, so I've had to use software/visual tests to calibrate...even playing around with it a bunch I haven't been able to get deep blacks without loss of detail. In games like Dragon Age or movies like Harry Potter it is pretty bad. That's an LED-backlit unit, so just be aware and don't be afraid to return whatever you get if you don't like it. I'm about to take mine back and will probably give the F2380 a go, or wait for the new HP screens that have been announced.
 
Boscoh said:
I've got the 2370XL and the black crush is pretty bad.. I'm about to take mine back and will probably give the F2380 a go
Click to expand...

That's not black crush, that's gamma shift from viewing angle. For a TN panel, you want to calibrate the monitor to 2.0 gamma. After doing this, the top of the screen will be around 2.2-2.4 gamma and the bottom will be around 1.8 while the center is about normal.
 
This will be the consumer computer monitor with the darkest blacks when it is launched, although who knows how much better it is at avoiding black crush / gamma issues compared to the older F23xx monitors. The Eizo based on the same panel supposedly had even higher measured contrast.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1487864

Basically this is 300% of the contrast of the best of the rest, assuming the specs are true. The fact that they specifically mention static contrast separately from dynamic contrast is a very good sign, as is the ability to work in sRGB mode.
 
sethk said:
This will be the consumer computer monitor with the darkest blacks when it is launched, although who knows how much better it is at avoiding black crush / gamma issues compared to the older F23xx monitors. The Eizo based on the same panel supposedly had even higher measured contrast.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1487864

Basically this is 300% of the contrast of the best of the rest, assuming the specs are true. The fact that they specifically mention static contrast separately from dynamic contrast is a very good sign, as is the ability to work in sRGB mode.
Click to expand...

These also have some of the worst black crush of all PVA panels, and have a very slow matrix exhibiting severe ghosting.
 
I have the F2380 and it only has some color streaking depending on the game. I use it for my 360. I also have the 2233rz 120hz panel and for some games (PC vs console comparison) they are even. If you check digitalversus the F2380 is slightly beter than a good 5ms TN. Most games I've played have no signs of streaking except BF 1943. I will have to run PixerPixan on it.
 
I have the Samsung F2380 as-well. I use it for PC gaming and 360. I would say that overall it is very clear and the contrast is excellent for an lcd! I also had Kuro Plasma, the PRO111-fd. I would say the Samsung lcd isnt even close to the Kuro for static contrast ratio BUT is every bit as good as the non local dimming lcd's out there.

I would like to check out that Ezio, its colors and contrast ratio are ALOT better then the F2380. Where can the Ezio be purchased? I don't think it looks as nice as the F2380 look wise.

Anyone play with the Apple 24 LED monitor? That any good compared to the F2380?

The blur on the F2380 is pretty obvious when playing games, but I would rather deal with that then horrible contrast ratio :/ There is half a screen (average 7 ms) of input lag
compared to my FW900 so it is great in that respect. The Kuro was horrible for input lag! even running at native 1080p on the tv it had an average of 36 ms of input lag yet no real screen blur :0 Can't win them all I guess ha
 
coolhandm3 said:
Anyone play with the Apple 24 LED monitor? That any good compared to the F2380
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If you are referring to the 24" Apple LED Cinema Display, it's totally worthless unless you have a MacBook Pro. It only uses mini DisplayPort. And AFAIK, it uses white LED backlighting, which really doesn't give you much, if any advantage over a traditional CCFL backlight. It's an IPS panel so it will have great viewing angles and decent contrast, but it won't quite match a PVA in terms of blacks.

Did I mention it costs as much as some 26" H-IPS models?

I give the Apple LED Cinema Display three thumbs down for these simple facts.

*gets ready for the rush of angry rabid Apple fanb0is*
 
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I believe the 5970 video card has mini display port so if you had that v-card you could use the Apple display. I aslo know that Belkin sells at the apple store a DVI to minidisplay port converter but its $160 lol!!

I think the Apple display looks very nice BUT its hard to judge how good the blacks are in the APPLE store because its soo freakin bright in there :/
 
coolhandm3 said:
I believe the 5970 video card has mini display port so if you had that v-card you could use the Apple display. I aslo know that Belkin sells at the apple store a DVI to minidisplay port converter but its $160 lol!!

I think the Apple display looks very nice BUT its hard to judge how good the blacks are in the APPLE store because its soo freakin bright in there :/
Click to expand...

Well no shit, it's there. But where do you see 5970's in stock? :confused:

And the Apple has no ergonomic adjustments besides tilt. For almost $900 for a 24" panel, I want the works. Pivot, landscape, height adjustment, and swivel are a must at that price point. Am I alone in thinking this?
 
Mr. Bluntman said:
Well no shit, it's there. But where do you see 5970's in stock? :confused:

And the Apple has no ergonomic adjustments besides tilt. For almost $900 for a 24" panel, I want the works. Pivot, landscape, height adjustment, and swivel are a must at that price point. Am I alone in thinking this?
Click to expand...
The Eizo ev2333w amazes me in this aspect. After I watched this video I was left hoping it'd be great for gaming. But as you mentioned they typically have the " worst ghosting and highest input lag of all LCD monitors. Black crush not withstanding... :/ "
 
Sounds like the Eizo has the same panel as the Samsung F2380. Yet it comes with better electronics. But even with overdrive this is a very ghosty/streaking panel. From Prad review:

Unfortunately, streak formation is a large flaw in the EV2333WH and is literally a hair in the soup. We do not recommend deactivating overdrive even for occasional gamers; indeed, we would like to say that anything other than the highest level cannot be recommended and even then, sometimes very pronounced streaks can be seen in fast movements such as those that appear in shooting or racing games, especially for hard contrasts (dark on bright). Thus fact alone disqualifies the Eizo EV2333WH for hardcore gamers.


Still, probably a good choice for casual gamers who aren't bothered by the PVA shift. It sounds much improved over the Samsung F2380.
 
For HD video editing, a dual 24' or 30' setup is best accompanoed by a Panasonic Plasma for previewing, either through Deckling or a normal display adapter.
 
I just got a 24" LED Apple Cinema Display, and it's one of the best monitors I've seen. I had a pair of Dell U2410's, and returned them to get a single Cinema Display.

Wow.

I happen to like glossy screens (most who do photo editing don't, it seems), and my measured black luminance values are 0.15, with a white luminance of 90. Out of the box the colors are pretty damn close what my Spyder3 adjusted things to.

I am really glad I dumped the Dell U2410's. The quality of those monitors was just atrocious. Granted, the ACD costs 2x as much, but it was worth the cost.

Oh, and I run this on a PC (Windows Vista). I don't have any mac hardware at all other than this. I run the 24" LED Apple Cinema Display via a DVI connector using an Atlona Mini Displayport to DVI converter.

I control the monitor brightness via a strange workaround using Apple's Boot Camp drivers and control panel. (You have to run the boot camp control panel w/o admin privileges, otherwise it will give an error message... strange, I know. So, you must use the 'runas.exe' program using a non-admin account, targeting the boot camp control panel executable). Alternately, one could use an apple keyboard's brightness control buttons w/o having to do this workaround.

I'll probably get a Dell U2410 as a second monitor (right now I'm using an old Viewsonic VP201B S-IPS panel) once *all* of the quality problems are resolved. I'll wait for Rev A02 or later in that case.
 
The Samsung F2380 will give you close to true blacks. I have had one for a week now and while surfing hardforums the background is very close to as dark as the screen bezel.
 
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