Large/old Home Router/Network planning help

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Worminater

Gawd
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Apr 12, 2004
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Hey. I have a fairly large (~3600sqr foot, 140 yr old, 3 story brick) house in a fairly WiFi saturated urban area, I have Gig Fiber coming into my basement into ethernet to the first and second floors, and a line run from the second to the third. Today, I have Fios crap-router in the second floor fed from basement, and then running to my office to hardwire my desktop. WiFi on the edges is spotty, but works.

I have a pretty stupid setup, excluding computers/phones, currently including 10 sonos speakers, 12 Nest devices, 6 Google Homes, 6 chromecasts, 20 Hue bulbs/lamps, and a number of Wemo switches. I have been seeing some hiccups in the back on Sonos, and my Nest Secure has been pinging me somewhat often about network drops (~every other day).

This leads me to think a proper network setup is necessary, probably Mesh? After searching a bit and reading the GUIDE,I'm leaning toward moving FiOS router to basement to keep FiOS TV happy, then having it feed to an AmpliFi HD on second floor w/ extenders on 1st and 3rd. I do have some concerns about the Mesh playing nice w/ all the IOT devices around the house as they're likely just to increase in number, but I think it should all work smoothly once I disable wifi on the FiOS router...

Opinions or other options are welcome.
 
Probably would be just fine. With it being a larger brick home, you'll need to pay attention to your transmit and receive power. For WiFi 5Ghz is great for crowded wifi areas due to channel overlap avoidance, but 5Ghz is terrible for structure penetration and is susceptible to a lot of attenuation. 2.4Ghz does a great job at transmitting at high power and penetrating walls and structures, but is problematic in existing crowded 2.4G WiFi with overlap.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is generally doing what Brian_B suggested works... but more often when people throw in more and more APs in an already crowded WiFi environment, it can make the problem even worse.

The consensus is that with modern APs you can broadcast SSIDs on both 5G and 2.4G radios, but you'll want to limit the amount of 2.4G usage. "Yell only as loud as you need your clients to hear you" - so if you can get full 2.4G coverage that you need for all your IoT stuff with only one AP advertising it, then go that route and have all your APs utilize the 5G and turn off 2.4G where it's not needed.
 
I have a 5G running now, but signal just gets eaten by my floors/walls, 2.4 *mostly* works. Good idea on channel though, i haven't really done that since I moved and moving to something less crowded could help allot.
 
Worminater said:
I have a 5G running now, but signal just gets eaten by my floors/walls, 2.4 *mostly* works. Good idea on channel though, i haven't really done that since I moved and moving to something less crowded could help allot.
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SMB and Prosumer APs like Ubiquiti do pretty good about giving you visbility in the current WiFi spectrum for both 2.4GHz and 5GHz. Once you set them up, you'll want to take a peek at the spectrum to see which channel to choose. I would advise against auto channel and auto power.

Run absolutely as much as possible on 5GHz and then use 2.4GHz where necessary and dedicate those SSIDs for each radio.
 
Farva said:
You'll only be able to get ~30 devices per 1 of those Lite APs.
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Is this a limit of the Lite or the Ubiquity tech itself? 30 should be fine for forseable future I think, but tells me if i should consider one of the more expensive models or not (i haven't found a good comparison yet)
 
Worminater said:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015PR20GY

If i'm reading right, i should be able to toss one of these on 1st+3rd floor of my current home/router, and be good to go?
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Ya, Unifi AP's handle a lot of clients. To be honest with this many devices I prefer overkill, so I would get 3 and put one on each floor with a hard wire from the AP to a switch.
I was always under the impression that even the Lite's would handle 50+ clients fine, but if it is true they only handle 30 or so then you could probably step up to the regular version (no need to get HD model) and that should be good. Or maybe the "LR" model for better coverage?

With this many devices I would also do things a bit manually, I make the 2.4 and 5Ghz radios have different SSIDs and connect devices to each one in a well distributed way. For instance, speakers will want to be able to have solid connection but dont need a ton of bandwidth, so you could connect all 12 Sonos speakers to the 2.4GHz band. Chromecasts may need the extra bandwidth for streaming UHD content so put them all on 5GHz, the Nests need good stability and not a ton of bandwidth so 2.4GHz with them as well. Then put all the lamps on 5Ghz just to free up the 2.4GHz radios from extra load they dont need. If you have 3 APs then this should spread out clients so that each radio only has 10-12 devices on it.


To power these you use PoE. I dont think the AC Lite's come with a PoE injector but Im not positive on that. You can either buy PoE injectors and have them all pluigged in at the switch where the line from the AP goes, or use UniFi switches that support the PoE output on the switch itself and not use injectors.
 
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Worminater said:
Is this a limit of the Lite or the Ubiquity tech itself? 30 should be fine for forseable future I think, but tells me if i should consider one of the more expensive models or not (i haven't found a good comparison yet)
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It really don't matter how you slice it. WiFi is WiFi - Some devices can probably handle 50+ clients, or even higher, but it starts to get dicey. On WiFi only one client can talk at a time, so if you can imagine the more APs and clients you have it's like having a conversation at a concert.
 
If you care about speeds I would look at the AC Pro or AC HD. They should also provide better coverage \ penetration.

I'm sure experiences vary on this but I've never had good luck with unifi wifi backhauls. I would make sure you can get a cable from the basement to each AP.

If you don't want to run cables I have actually had better luck with more newbie friendly Mesh systems like the linksys velop. (i'll probably get cut for saying that but it's coming from someone who really likes unifi products and runs them at home.)
 
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Kardonxt said:
If you care about speeds I would look at the AC Pro or AC HD. They should also provide better coverage \ penetration.

I'm sure experiences vary on this but I've never had good luck with unifi wifi backhauls. I would make sure you can get a cable from the basement to each AP.

If you don't want to run cables I have actually had better luck with more newbie friendly Mesh systems like the linksys velop. (i'll probably get cut for saying that but it's coming from someone who really likes unifi products and runs them at home.)
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If going mesh is the option, definitely go Orbi - they have dedicated wireless radios for backhauls.
 
I have experience with Eero, TP-Link Deco, Asus Lyra and Google WiFi. They're all great. Get your favorite brand and you'll be happy.

Orbi, Velop also have great reviews. I honestly don't think you can go wrong with any brand.

If you go this route look for one with a TriBand mesh system, it should support dedicated backhaul over the "third" band. However, hard wiring each AP back to your router will ALWAYS give you the best results.

My largest install is 19 Eero's in a 10,000 SQFT house with 2 external buildings. That client gets his max bandwidth anywhere in his house over 2.4 or 5ghz
 
Worminater said:
Is this a limit of the Lite or the Ubiquity tech itself? 30 should be fine for forseable future I think, but tells me if i should consider one of the more expensive models or not (i haven't found a good comparison yet)
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Just the Lite version. The HD can do 250. Pro is 125.
 
Ubuquiti is a solid choice. Given the number of devices present that could be using actual bandwidth (e.g., the Sonos and Chromecasts), I'd recommend the UAP-AC-Pro at the minimum (the bottom of the linked page gives throughput specs for many of their models). Given the age of the house I'm guessing that the construction is such that WiFi doesn't penetrate very well (e.g., plaster and lath walls). That plus the number of devices would have me looking at an AP per floor.

Don't forget that if you go Ubiquiti you'll need something to run the controller software, such as their Cloudkey, a Raspberry Pi, or a container/virtual machine (it can be run as an app on a Mac/PC, but in my experience this doesn't work as well).

Mesh is out (or it should be). It's a kludge to cover for installs where it's not possible to properly wire up the access points. Since it appears that the house is pretty well wired up, there's no call for it here. There are also other wired tech such as MOCA bridges that can be utilized if needed to help spread out APs and/or get some devices off of WiFi and onto ethernet.

Suggested reading:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...-realize-how-terrible-consumer-wi-fi-gear-is/
https://arstechnica.com/information...flecting-on-almost-three-years-with-pro-gear/
 
YOu dont need to run controller software with Ubiquiti outside of the initial install of the units. You only need to keep software running if you want fancy graphs showing various bandwidth use.
 
My setup isn't quite as extreme as yours but it isn't far off. I get by with a single FortiAP 421E with 3900sqft over 3 floors but that likely isn't an option for you. That said, I would highly suggest pulling the Sonos boxes off your wifi and using a bridge or boost. I've found Sonos to be much more stable that way.
 
EniGmA1987 said:
YOu dont need to run controller software with Ubiquiti outside of the initial install of the units. You only need to keep software running if you want fancy graphs showing various bandwidth use.
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Or:
  • Whenever you need to change the settings.
  • Installing firmware updates.
  • For some user/group configs.
  • You want/need to keep logs.
  • You're running a guest portal.
True, that's not much, but something to consider.

FWIW, I found the controller kinda flaky running from my Mac. I moved it into a minimal Ubuntu LXC container running full-time and it's much better. At the very least, I'd recommend installing it to a minimal linux VM (Ubuntu 16.04 LTS works well, 18.04 LTS isn't compatible last I checked) that can be fired up as needed or left running.
 
I would start with one, with the number of connected devices I would think youd be better with 2 ap pro units and probably wont need long range. I have the AC lite in my apartment and I can use it in my parking lot and out in the courtyard with no issue.
 
Based on your skill level, I think Google's mesh solution is much better than a unifi setup which needs constant tweaking before you get it right.

Buy 3 Google WiFi hubs, hardwire at least 1 per floor, add additional ones where you see poor coverage.
 
ComputerBox34 said:
Based on your skill level, I think Google's mesh solution is much better than a unifi setup which needs constant tweaking before you get it right.

Buy 3 Google WiFi hubs, hardwire at least 1 per floor, add additional ones where you see poor coverage.
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I'm a SWE, not IT... :) . My Pi did get decommissioned when i got free cloud credits @ my current job, though i've been meaning to re-setup hassio...
 
IMO, you are approaching if not already exceeded the practical limit on wifi devices in such a small place. If I counted correctly, you have 54 devices plus the Wemo switches plus your computers and phones. That is a lot of things all chattering at the same time. This doesn't count your neighbor's devices. Very possible you are dealing with a couple of hundred gizmos trying to talk at the same time. The big problem with wifi is each radio is single tasking. Assuming a simple single radio AP, if IOT gizmo 1 is talking to AP1, no other device can talk. Probably why you are seeing the network dropped messages. (Someone's phone decided now was a good time to download update for app #5 and hogged the AP when the Nest wanted to talk). Most modern APs now include multiple radios to help but each radio needs its own channel, which have to compete with all the other gizmos and APs that both you and your neighbors are running.

Put any high bandwidth devices on wired that you can. Things like streaming devices are a good fit for wired.

Segregate your networks. Try to put all your IOT gizmos on 2.4Ghz and your non-wired streaming/phones/computers on 5Ghz.

Expect that your ISP supplied router will include a WiFi AP you can't shut off. (A lot of ISPs are setting up a network of APs for their customers to use by making each router such an AP). If your ISP does this, consider putting their router in a ventilated metal box.

Your house may be both a help and hindrance. A lot of old houses use plaster and lathe for the wall. Decent RF shield. Especially if the lathe is metal mesh. Will help in limiting the interference from neighbors but will kill your internal signals.

Consider putting all your APs on UPS. Each power blink can cause an AP to go through reboot, during which it is offline. The UPS will limit the reboots from power blinks.
 
Dead Parrot said:
IMO, you are approaching if not already exceeded the practical limit on wifi devices in such a small place. If I counted correctly, you have 54 devices plus the Wemo switches plus your computers and phones. That is a lot of things all chattering at the same time. This doesn't count your neighbor's devices. Very possible you are dealing with a couple of hundred gizmos trying to talk at the same time. The big problem with wifi is each radio is single tasking. Assuming a simple single radio AP, if IOT gizmo 1 is talking to AP1, no other device can talk. Probably why you are seeing the network dropped messages. (Someone's phone decided now was a good time to download update for app #5 and hogged the AP when the Nest wanted to talk). Most modern APs now include multiple radios to help but each radio needs its own channel, which have to compete with all the other gizmos and APs that both you and your neighbors are running.
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Agreed. I believe the Sonos is on it's own private mesh, and the Hues may be (.. i haven't really dug into how the Hue hub works...). The biggest issue has been the Nest on the fringes, cameras having issue providing steady live-view in the corners of the house (though back up 10s and things seem to be steady , makes me think it catches up via caching.)
 
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