Just got a Samsung XL30 - 30" LED

sedluk

n00b
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Nov 28, 2004
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17
I am sitting in front of my XL30 while reading about all this *PVA and color shift stuff. While sitting in front of the monitor I have never noticed color shift. I keep thinking that I must be missing something.

While walking into the room and viewing the screen from a 180 degree angle I see an obvious color shift and the white balance is way off.

While sitting in front of the monitor and moving around I have not noticed any color shift let alone one that would be worth writing about.
 

InToGraphics

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
126
I am sitting in front of my XL30 while reading about all this *PVA and color shift stuff. While sitting in front of the monitor I have never noticed color shift. I keep thinking that I must be missing something.

While walking into the room and viewing the screen from a 180 degree angle I see an obvious color shift and the white balance is way off.

While sitting in front of the monitor and moving around I have not noticed any color shift let alone one that would be worth writing about.
You're not missing anything. It's a myth. At least with the latest panels.
But at least you know what to do if you want it back. Just take your wireless keyboard and chair to the room door and work from there.
 

albovin

[H]ard|Gawd
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It's OK. That's the problem with universal/generic, you have to please too many needs and requirements. The technology is not ready yet.
No problem with technology. There are two or three models to do everything. They are called universal.

That's why they are top ranked.


desperado12im8.jpg



crtipsuj7.jpg
 

albovin

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I am sitting in front of my XL30 while reading about all this *PVA and color shift stuff. While sitting in front of the monitor I have never noticed color shift. I keep thinking that I must be missing something.

Yes. You are missing image quality.

xl30colorshifttx3.jpg
 

sedluk

n00b
Joined
Nov 28, 2004
Messages
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I am not sure what I am doing wrong but I open the picture of the three turtles:

http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tortillax3xl30cm0.jpg

And on my monitor (XL30) they all look exactly the same.

If I get out of my seat and walk over to the side of the monitor and look at them from a sharp angle, all three lose contrast, the white background looks dull.

There are problems with the XL30, but color shifting is not one of them. A real problem is the Natural Color Expert does not currently run on Vista 64.

Another issue that I have noticed is there is always a flicker about one minute after the monitor is turned on. I have not really timed this exactly. But the monitor always does this flicker each time I turn my computer on. It is not a big deal; it may have something to do with the monitor warming up. It is not really distracting and is subtle. I may not see it every time it boots, it would be easy to miss, but I found this interesting.
 

pawstar

Limp Gawd
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Jul 2, 2005
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465
Oh man, I'm missing out on a huge flamewar here.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - the NEC 3090 also suffers from shifts in color, especially whites and darker tones. Its far from perfect, and exhibits this behavior more than previous/other IPS panels.

Albovin, please compare the NEC 30" (or any other 30" IPS panel) to a CRT and not the industry best NEC 24" which we all know to have crt-like performance against a crt. What you are doing is very MISLEADING. It does NOT represent the quality of 30" H-IPS accurately.
 

albovin

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Oh man, I'm missing out on a huge flamewar here.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - the NEC 3090 also suffers from shifts in color, especially whites and darker tones. Its far from perfect, and exhibits this behavior more than previous/other IPS panels.

Albovin, please compare the NEC 30" (or any other 30" IPS panel) to a CRT and not the industry best NEC 24" which we all know to have crt-like performance against a crt. What you are doing is very MISLEADING. It does NOT represent the quality of 30" H-IPS accurately.

War??
Elementary school with funny colored pictures.
People study basics here.

NEC 3090 also suffers from shifts in color,
Remark for education:
Unfortunately for you it's not possible due to the panel technology.
What you call "shift in color" you can see on any picture on the wall or any object in your room if look from different angle. Same for CRT, same for the NEC 2490.
This sort of "shift in color" is from housewives' vocabulary. When they clean their cupbords they look from different angles to see the surface differently for better cleaning. Housewives are clever!

Colorshift is a definition for *VA specific problem due to Vertical Alignment.

It does NOT represent the quality of 30" H-IPS accurately
You are not following.
 

kortik

Limp Gawd
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148
so is there a comparison between samusing xl30 and Gateway xhd3000?
somewhere online. I cannot find it?
 

pawstar

Limp Gawd
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What you call "shift in color" you can see on any picture on the wall or any object in your room if look from different angle.
Nope! Not the same. Old IPS don't do this, NEC 30 does. Stop twisting truths around.

This sort of "shift in color" is from housewives' vocabulary. When they clean their cupbords they look from different angles to see the surface differently for better cleaning. Housewives are clever!

Colorshift is a definition for *VA specific problem due to Vertical Alignment.

And since when did you get a monopoly on the term "colorshift" and get to pin it to a specific technology. If thats the case then colorshifting paint must be cheap way to spray on *VA monitor panel onto any surface :p
 

albovin

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so is there a comparison between samusing xl30 and Gateway xhd3000?
somewhere online. I cannot find it?

It's unlikely that you can find this comparison at a professional test level. They are oriented in opposite directions.
XL30 is a laboratory product for laboratory use.
Gateway XHD3000 is the most interesting *VA-based product (alongwith the new NEC 24WMGX3) for general use.
You can compare them indirectly only taking info from different sources.
Generally (what is widely known):
Panel.
Similar or same PVA panel with different backlight.
Colors.
XHD retains standard color gamut (unique for 30", optimal for general use); XL30 is a laboratory creature to test what color saturation can be achieved with LED backlight (zero value for general use). Both with regular PVA colorshift.
Black and CR.
Expect comparable values.
Equipment.
XHD - advanced (except for photo quality due to PVA and ergonomics) multimedia monitor.
XL30 - almost bare panel with added half-successful LUT calibration support. No extra inputs, no controls (+/- Brightness and Power On/Off).
Issues.
XHD - controversial reports about production quality. See appropriate thread.
XL30 - uniformity (specific LED backlight issues), other half-finished product illnesses.
Price.
XHD - about $1500. Can be found at MicroCenter on display.
XL30 - absurd, $3000++

More detail - look for the tests.
 

kleox64

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Nope! Not the same. Old IPS don't do this, NEC 30 does. Stop twisting truths around.

And since when did you get a monopoly on the term "colorshift" and get to pin it to a specific technology. If thats the case then colorshifting paint must be cheap way to spray on *VA monitor panel onto any surface :p

VA panels have colour-shift, there is no fix as its tied to the technology. Looking head on the sides (2-3" rougly) are a different colour.
I thought the 24" S-PVA samsung was bad, the 30" is taking the p*ss since its more obvious due to the larger surface area.
 

InToGraphics

Weaksauce
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A JPEG/JPG will not show what you want. Or maybe it does. Because it's a lossy format.

And I'll tell you a public secret. If I wanted to, I could select whatever part of a picture and make it look just that little bit worse.

Or for instance, take a high quality jpeg (and also saved only once), do a minimal edit on a very tiny region of that jpeg (one pixel is enough), and save it again. Repeat this a couple of times, each time you save it, you're compressing it a bit more, therefore losing a bit more information from the original, and there you have your worse looking monitor.

Or you could do the opposite and "enhance" the appearance of the monitor you prefer.

And when you upload a JPEG, have imageshack.us compress ("optimize") it further.
Agree, both sides will look worse after uploading, but the worst looking side will look even worse.

I'm not saying you did all this deliberately. I'm saying that your pictures don't prove anything.

Colour shift also depends on the brightness setting of the monitor.
There is side effect called "colour shift" which results from increasing brightness. This side effect, degrades general color characteristics due to change of saturation, hue and brightness. Skin-tone colors in particular are affected. So lower your brightness to minimize any "colour shift" you might see.
With games, and films, high brightness is probably better. For professional work it is not.
Maybe that is the reason that we can't (will never?) agree.

BTW, "top ranked", next to main stream monitors which cost far less ? And by a website where most of the audience doesn't give a d*mn about colour accuracy, and wouldn't even notice bad colours when told what to look for.

:confused:Oh, and why do people with *IPS panels prefer to look from the righthand side at their monitors ?:confused:

Another thing. The screen shot with the 2 guys. The one at the top that is straight on. The NEC monitor suffers from loss of detail in the hair. It could be the JPEG, or an *IPS problem. Who knows ?
This detail is better visible (but not much) in the screenshot just below it. But there the skin-tone colours are lighter. The skin tone of the guy on the left has gone (from pink to) pale. Again it could be just your JPEG, but it could also be the IPS panel.
Who knows ?

BTW, with all those S-PVA Samsung panels selling into the professional market, we are bound to see some craptastic photography, digital art, advertising, etc. in the near future.
It's funny that exactly this group of monitor users, where colour accuracy is most important, are moving towards monitors with panels which suffer from so called "colour shift"/"gamma shift".
Maybe because they block too much light from entering the room (I still need to do this myself), lower the ambient light, and can therefore lower the brightness of their monitors.
Problems be gone.
 

pawstar

Limp Gawd
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Messages
465
VA panels have colour-shift, there is no fix as its tied to the technology. Looking head on the sides (2-3" rougly) are a different colour.

No, you misunderstand me. I'm NOT saying that PVA panels don't have color shift. What I am saying is that in light of the less than spectacular performance of the current generation 30" *IPS and rather superb performance of modern S-PVA wrt *VA (& TN) technology the traditional IPS >> PVA no longer holds.

My big problem is the constant denial that 30" IPS don't have any color shift in them. They do - its not of the same character as related to *VA technology but it does cause the image to change appearance. Older generation IPS did not suffer as much from this before. And its more than just size - take some black paper and mask a 30" panel to give the same viewing area as a smaller screen and compare it against an older monitor. When looking from the same angle, the image on the 30" panel will shift far more than that of the natively small, older generation IPS monitor.

What I would really like to see is a reputable reviewer do a head to head comparison of the best 30" *IPS and best 30" *VA monitor and conclusively show the differences as well as provide a real-world usage performance comparison


I thought the 24" S-PVA samsung was bad, the 30" is taking the p*ss since its more obvious due to the larger surface area.

Please provide some evidence that it is so much worse. From accounts of other forum members owning 30" PVA panels, this is not the case.
 

InToGraphics

Weaksauce
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For what it's worth :
Contrary to what one might think, I highly respect albovin's knowledge and input.
I only wish he wouldn't sometime bent the thruth to favour his cause.
I have no intention to flame. To me it's just a slightly heated discussion.

It's a bit like discussing suitability of models for certain shoots with my competitor friends.
They do the shoot, but are too lazy to correct the images themselves. So they handover that job to me. Before they do the shoot they inform me of what's to come. And I propose some of their own models whom I have classified by suitability per type of shoot in an Access database with photo material of skin-tone, blemishes, scars and how to correct them and which programs were used.
A couple of models always have "a slight arse rash around their bumcrack". You don't want to pick those for a lingerie shoot. I end up removing zits on each photo showing their bumcrack.
It's about 50-50 whether my recommendations are chosen. If it gives me an unnecessary time consuming or difficult retouching job, that is where the discussion starts.
We end up discussing specifications, features, and looks of the different (monitor:p) models and their suitability. But we keep talking to eachother.
 

albovin

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What I would really like to see is a reputable reviewer do a head to head comparison of the best IPS and best VA monitor and conclusively show the differences as well as provide a real-world usage performance comparison

Wow!
My dear, It has been done 100 times. That's why it's ABC of monitor technology understanding. The whole community knows that very well (those who graduated from elementary school of course).
Even with all compassion, there is no use to repeat all that for you personally every morning.
Being in denial is your own problem.
 

pawstar

Limp Gawd
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Messages
465
Wow!
My dear, It has been done 100 times. That's why it's ABC of monitor technology understanding. The whole community knows that very well (those who graduated from elementary school of course).
Even with all compassion, there is no use to repeat all that for you personally every morning.
Being in denial is your own problem.

I guess my previous post wasn't very clear to you. We are talking about 30" monitors right? So its edited to remove all ambiguity.

I have no doubts that the industry best IPS (Nec 2490 & possibly HP DreamColor 24) mop up everything else in the smaller monitor size segment but 30" wise there is no conclusive answer!

I would like to see the top 30" IPS (which would be the NEC3090 atm) and the top 30" *VA (either Eizo CG301W or maybe the new Lacie 730 if they have a fixed version of the XL30 with proper hw calibration). But if you know of a proper review of both head to head, please share the link with us.
 
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I just received the XL30.


I read the thread about the turtle and color shift, and I notice on the NEC the head of the turtle loosing the purple-ish huw that is in the back area of the head. I opened the file on my screen and swiveled the Xl30 to both extremes. The ONLY shifting that occurs on my screen is the black point dropping a bit and exposing the background of the turtle.

I have had a number of screens, and one of my favorites are the Sony 24" CRT ( I have 5 of these screens. I am keeping 1 al the rest are for those interested to buy it, late prod date 2002&3), from the Nanao, Viewsonic (Yes these from the old school days) to the Eizo, NEC... This is the most comfortable screen, solid picture, with amazing color value.

I have a couple issues with it, and none are for color shift.

I would also stress that I am not a gamer. I bought this for professional image editing use/Prepress CYMK SWOP color output proofing.

So far it is the best screen I have seen, as I look around. There are probably better screens, but that accuracy is DEAD after 2-3 years or so of regular pro usage. For the price and the outstanding life span of the LED, this was a winner.

I am looking at this cute turtle again and again....I swiveling the screen left to right...Im paying attention to the orange color on the rim of the shell, the slight purple color to the head and over all..... I only notice a black point drop...NO color shift, and I dont know how you want to define color shift, but there is no color shifting (Black is not a color).

There is one other guy I read about that has this screen.

I did a couple calibrations and I actually still need to understand what "mode" is calibrated, but when CAL is set (after I did the NCE2 calibration), I see that the screen is a bit pink, but in all the other modes it is not. The instructions say that this has been professionally calibrated already, and I do like the way the "standard" mode looks( when neither of the presets are lit up). I think I better go over the manual.


I will be getting another 30 inch in the next couple weeks or months, ..I might even wait it out, but the vibrancy of this screen is just beautiful...and its as if I am holding a dull matte or matte finish Velvia film up to a bright light.

The best test that I will run for this monitor is when I inspect the glossy pages of the national and international magazines I submit my work for, and when I send that print to the Fuji or Inkjet contract proofing machine...thats when I will know that this was the right choice, as thats all I will expect from it...to be dead on accurate so it doesnt cost me my contracts....the box it came it says professional use, and thats what I hope it does.

Gamers and video editors sadly need to look elsewhere for bag2buck payback.
 

albovin

[H]ard|Gawd
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I just received the XL30.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_0-tLLf6eqJY/R9MZWy1sYzI/AAAAAAAAAHE/x8FOFzuDj_E/s1600-h/Dell+2408+#1.jpg

Can you see a dark rectangle in the bottom left hand corner (front view)?

NO color shift, and I dont know how you want to define color shift, but there is no color shifting (Black is not a color).

You can see two pictures on the previous page that perfectly illustrate what colorshift is.
The first one is 24" PVA.
The second is colorshift on samsung XL30 - provided by it's owner.
Whatever backlight is, PVA is PVA.

colorshiftdiagramni8.jpg
 
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my problem is with the white...it has a slight pink in some areas, i think this is due to the "triad" of led? dont know much about it. it is very slight, but I consider myself picky about color
 
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I do also notice the slightest bit of it getting darker as I made the window smaller and dragged the window across the screen to see it react on all areas of my screen. It did get darker in the middle and to the right, and to the left the rectagle is more evident...ever so slightly.
 
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if i squint it is not visible. but across the screen it is visible, and ever so slightly on the left of the screen.

This makes sense as I did the test from the guy in the Netherlands, and the purple color test that he gets blue to purple...I get the slightest lightness at the left edge of my screen. I dont have a color shift at all, but it is a about 1 to 2 "levels" brighter along the left
 
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I ment to say....Ever so slightly MORE on the left of the screen (in my previous post , first sentence)
just to be clear.
 
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I see the colorshift diagram...not sure how to read it, or am I supposed do something with it?
How can use it to test my screen? (sorry a bit new to some of this testing)

I am about 24" to 30" (about arms length) from my screen and obviously looking at it head on...but it is wide so my head will ever so slightly tilt or shift left or right in order to focus on those areas.
 
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I see what you are saying, but from the front view my screen shows faint details on the background of the turtle image. When i swivel the screen to a agressive angle, what appears is the dithering pixel pattern on the "push" of dynamic range of the camera that captured the image.
 

albovin

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I do also notice the slightest bit of it getting darker as I made the window smaller and dragged the window across the screen to see it react on all areas of my screen. It did get darker in the middle and to the right, and to the left the rectagle is more evident...ever so slightly.

This is what I was going to ask you to do.
You can drag a solid color or gradient color and see it change in different places of the screen. This is colorshift too.
You can drag the turtle and see "more turtle" in the corners and "less turtle" in the center.
But back to the start point.
I ask you if you can see the rectangle in the whole picture because it's important.
This rectangle should not be visible from the front view.
It must be even with the background, indistinguishable.
Make it invisible and repeat your observation.
 
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Also worth mentioning...

I am in Cal.(calibrated) mode. This was after I did 3 Calibrations at

Brightness 160cd/m2 as I think it was giving me a tan at the factory setting when the screen was white (I tried to set to a lower 160 but at the end it says the brightness is higher than the max) ...I didnt understand this really).

Black is at minimum,
D65,
Gamma 2.2

My Delta E came in to be less than 0.41~
 
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i cannot lower the Cal settings...even the brightness. If I take it into standard mode, it would not be worth testing. If there is a way to make it disappear, let me know how to adjust, as I am new to this screen.
 
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I dragged it again... You dont really see a change in the turtle as the color info is so random...no repeat pattern to trace, but on the rectangle a slight shift is visible.
 
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in the center it is less visisble, ...the right side of the traingle has a "chimney" to it, and it has a dark shade along the right, this makes it more visisble in the center...as you drag left, these all are more evident.

Funny this test is very key for me, as I create lots of work that has mostly black backgrounds, and the CYMK sum percent is important for press (not to exceed 320 total or less according to the press), and I often deal with different blacks within the same file.
 

albovin

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I see the colorshift diagram...not sure how to read it, or am I supposed do something with it?
How can use it to test my screen? (sorry a bit new to some of this testing)

I am about 24" to 30" (about arms length) from my screen and obviously looking at it head on...but it is wide so my head will ever so slightly tilt or shift left or right in order to focus on those areas.


This diagram is not a test pattern.
This is just simplified illustration.
The black crush zone is always right opposite your point of view.
It follows you as you move your head across the screen field.
If you drag a piece of solid color from the center to a side, you'll see it getting pale. Then move your head accordingly to be right opposite the piece you've just dragged. You'll see the full color return.
It says that you never have "true" color across the whole *VA panel due to it's viewing angle deficiency (angle colorshift).

You can screw gamma abruptly so that the black crush zone becomes pale and all detailes visible. But this action will wash out colors badly closer to the screen edges.
It's better if your monitor is properly calibrated to 2.2 - you'll have more realistic impression of what you monitor actually displays.

Another picture to view.
http://bp1.blogger.com/_0-tLLf6eqJY/R9MXiC1sYxI/AAAAAAAAAG0/xYfLUN78fbY/s1600-h/Dell+2408+#3.jpg

Same on video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnaMex2FUo
 
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the QUALITY CONTROL image you provided is 296% black on the left where it says "CONT..." then it tops at 300% at the "...ROL".

I can see the slight shift on the edges of the word QUALITY as I drag it across the screen..and even that text is at 291% to 294 to the right.

not sure if these are to illustrate or to guide, as the image itself is skewed
 

albovin

[H]ard|Gawd
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Heh, heh, I see alsbovin strikes heavily on all knowledgeable :)

No, just 50% strength.
Do you want to say that I have found a victim?:)
No, so(u?)drug. We are just helping our friend know more about his monitor.
I don't think this is a big disaster.
AFAIK professionals work with numbers.
We, regular users, we don't work with numbers. We just enjoy what we can see. That's why so many people dislike colorshift.
 
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It is interesting , but I wonder as I read earlier that other panels are not imune to this either..your thoughts?

I can see this as a negative, but vs what other pro vs con situations?
 
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