I've got like $2-3000 for a pair of bookshelves, suggestions?

F

Fryguy8

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2001
Messages
1,707
Well I finished getting my signal path mostly in order. It's at least functional for computer speakers at this point. Zhaolu DAC balanced outs to an SM Pro audio volume control balanced outs to a behringer A500.

So i've got 250 watts per channel to work with, and a dell 30", so i can get some pretty large speakers. DIY is first priority, so if anyone has any suggestions for nearfield designs that would be appreciated. Limited to 8" drivers maximum, other than the width the other 2 dimensions can get pretty large (within bookshelf proportions, 25" tall isn't unreasonable), meaning things like MTMs are preferred, and 3-ways are preferred if baffle step compensation is suitable in nearfield (<2 ft).

No subwoofer currently, though one will probably be added in the future.
 
I know a little bit about audio, but half of that went straight over my head. Woosh!
 
mtms are floorstanding...I'm confused.

Why not get Reference 1s?
 
The reference 1s he was referring to are from av123.com
Have you ever checked out the forums at avsforum.com? They have a large speaker audio section. I'm assuming you'd get more help there than a computer audio forum. Are you opposed to floorstanding speakers? I thought they were supposed to be better overall.
 
This is my forte...

You got 2500$ to spend?

What have you auditioned and what do you like? Do you have a preference for the sound you want out of your bookshelves?

I just want you to know that I'm about || close to pulling the trigger on a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors.. but I'm having cold feet.. and the wallet doesn't want to die.

:)
 
aznx said:
mtms are floorstanding...I'm confused.

Why not get Reference 1s?
Click to expand...

MTM is just a shorthand version of midrange/tweeter/midrange.

The advantage is you can apply d'appolito to this and achieve better coherence and possibly better imaging within a short field. The downside is you get limited vertical dispersion.... so when you stand up or if your seat is not exactly placing your ears on par with the tweeter, you will get a drop in the highest frequencies.
 
Pinipig523 said:
MTM is just a shorthand version of midrange/tweeter/midrange.

The advantage is you can apply d'appolito to this and achieve better coherence and possibly better imaging within a short field. The downside is you get limited vertical dispersion.... so when you stand up or if your seat is not exactly placing your ears on par with the tweeter, you will get a drop in the highest frequencies.
Click to expand...

Ah, I thought he was talking about x-mtms from av123, but then again they aren't in the 2-3k price range either.:p
 
Pinipig523 said:
This is my forte...

You got 2500$ to spend?

What have you auditioned and what do you like? Do you have a preference for the sound you want out of your bookshelves?

I just want you to know that I'm about || close to pulling the trigger on a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors.. but I'm having cold feet.. and the wallet doesn't want to die.

:)
Click to expand...

Whee, I remember you. I'm just going to go off on a huge tangent here, you gather the information you need and make some suggestions.

1. I almost certainly want to go DIY. I have the resources to get good looking cabinets built, and crossovers assembled, and the price savings is extraordinary, comparing what the av123 reference 1s actually are compared to what they cost.

2. I've heard not much in the realm of mid-high end audio, but do know that I like forward sounding more aggressive speakers. Back when I did car audio I prefered the likes of focal and mb quart.

I've auditioned sonus faber grand pianos (obviously not applicable here), as well as a couple of models of martin logans, and generally hate the sound of the martins. I found the sonus fabers to sound MUCH better.

I own a pair of Dayton Reference TMWWs that are bi-amped downstairs (http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject/) and am generally happy with these.

I use grado headphones exclusively for home use (currently sr225s, and if I ever upgrade it will almost certainly be to rs-1s or gs1000s instead of going to another brand). Again speaking towards my preference towards more aggressive/forward sounding speakers.

I plan on using a subwoofer with these computer speakers, but would like them to function well without one.

Being DIY, I'm heavily considering the likes of exodus LCR (which is pushing the physical size limits), and madisound seas odins.

I feel that d'appolito is necessary for 2 reasons: 1. Improved midbass/bass response (I'd like extension to 60hz or so anechoically) 2. better dispersion since I'm going to be sitting nearfield.

I've considered mini-arrays, but not sure how this will work with my width limitation (realistically can't go wider than 10" unless I do weird stuff)
 
Fryguy,

Ill get back to you in a few hours, I have a half-shift of work to go to right now.

2 things:

1. You did not hear the good Martin Logans on good gear. What you heard were probably the cheaper MLs on a receiver.
2. I think that for you, it may be cost-benificial to go non-DIY considering that you are considering to spend a good chunk of cash. If you go with used speakers, you can always flip them back for almost the same (as long as the condition is good) when you upgrade. If you go DIY, you may have to essentially start from scratch each time you want to "upgrade"... unless you're willing to take the speaker apart and redo the drivers and crossovers each time... which would limit your choices for each build.

I would suggest non-DIY.
 
Well with a budget like that, I'd give DIY a miss. I think you are going to have trouble finding components in that range, and there is a lot you can screw up in speaker design. If I was given money like that for bookshelfs, I would personally get B&W 805s.
 
Sycraft said:
Well with a budget like that, I'd give DIY a miss. I think you are going to have trouble finding components in that range, and there is a lot you can screw up in speaker design. If I was given money like that for bookshelfs, I would personally get B&W 805s.
Click to expand...

I agree. Plus, you have absolutely ZERO resale on DIY.
 
Alright, if you were to go with non-DIY route, I would suggest several bookshelves.

1. Polk LSi9 - well below 3K, at about $900 new. Will get you a good sense of musicality, but at the cost of much transparency and muddy especially in the lower midbass region.
2. AV123's Onix Reference 1 - well below 3K, around $600 in the used market. Overall, I thought it was a little too sibilant for me. I couldn't push it to good volumes without the treble becoming a little overbearing. It "SEEMS" detailed, even hyperdetailed, but upon close inspection and critical listening comparing it to other speakers, it is actually a little laid back with regards to the midrange, but peaked with the upper treble. Go figure.
3. JM Labs Profile 908 - Priced at around $2K, it gives a good clean sound. Better than the previous 2 I just mentioned. Not a lot of bass, but quick and taut throughout.
4. Sonus Faber Concertino Domus - Priced around $1.5K. A good balance of highs, mids, and lows. I thought it was clean sounding, much like the Profile 908, but without an overly "shiny" sort of reproduction. The 908 just seemed to be too clean to me. This Concertino Domus sounds a bit more like music to me. Not the last word in coherence, nor musicality.... but neither were the previous 3 that I mentioned.
5. BW 805 - Priced around $2K. It's an OK speaker, does a lot well but I feel that it has the propensity to get a little hot with the treble balance and the woofer is not FST like the rest of the 80x and 703 counterparts. Not the best midrange. Too expensive for what you get, IMO. But, if british sound is what you're after, this may be a good match for you.
6. Paradigm S2 - Priced at around $2200, this is a pretty good speaker. Neutral.... but maybe to a fault. I did not feel like it was necessarily involving. I thought it was too clean without being able to draw me to the music. Not the best coherence either, and I demand coherence especially if I'm spending over $2K. I could not get a good sense of soundstage with my demos with it. Albeit, I heard the non-Beryllium ones.... the S2 version 2 are better from what I've read... and it's the same price.
7. Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor - Bar none, my favorite... although pricey at about $3900. Musical, realistic sounding and coherent to a greater degree than all other 6 I mentioned. The only caveat, once you hear the Cremona Auditors' bigger brothers - the Cremona Floorstanding - you will be forced to spend more money on them bigguns'. :)

Those are the 7 that come to mind. I've heard several more.. including Axiom gear, Polk, Epos, Proacs, Von Schweikert.

Other good bookshelves to consider:
1. Dynaudio gear... I'm not familiar with this company but they get rave reviews.
2. ACI XL... good speaker, same midrange woofer as the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor... sourced from ScanSpeak... the REVELATOR!
3. Tyler Acoustics... the Signature Reference may be another good choice.

:D
 
What do you think about paradigm S4s? Seem like they might be too big, and the tweeter will be way too off axis to be useful.

I've heard sonus faber speakers before and was quite impressed with them. I'll have to see if I can audition these bookshelves.

Realistically I'll probably just drop the price range down a bit and DIY exodus LCRs, as they seem to be able to give me a bit more of the sound that I want: really strong midbass prescence from a pair of 8" high excursion drivers, an usher audio tweeter, which I'm under the impression is similar to "the focal sound" that I like so much, and overall just the best of a lot of worlds.

I'm not really worried about resale value at all.
 
Fryguy8 said:
What do you think about paradigm S4s? Seem like they might be too big, and the tweeter will be way too off axis to be useful.

I've heard sonus faber speakers before and was quite impressed with them. I'll have to see if I can audition these bookshelves.

Realistically I'll probably just drop the price range down a bit and DIY exodus LCRs, as they seem to be able to give me a bit more of the sound that I want: really strong midbass prescence from a pair of 8" high excursion drivers, an usher audio tweeter, which I'm under the impression is similar to "the focal sound" that I like so much, and overall just the best of a lot of worlds.

I'm not really worried about resale value at all.
Click to expand...

The S4 are more of the S2, more bass more punch. But what you're after is definitely the S4 version 2 with the Beryllium tweeters. Those retail for exactly $3K.

And you say you're not worried about resale right now, but more of this audio hobby of ours (once you get to the hi end) is about resale. Otherwise, you'll just be dumping cash into something more of a pit rather than something that you can get money back when you're ready for something else. Wouldn't it be a lot better if that money that plunked for your (seemingly hi end at one time) PC was recoverable in a few years when you're ready to upgrade? Wouldn't it be grand if you could get back the $1000 or so that you spent on your PC... and use that $1000 to build another one that is more current?

Unless you're as wealthy as who knows what, you're going to wish you could get back what you initially put in.

That's why I dont have trouble spending a lot with audio.... as long as I can get resale, it's almost like a bank. I bought my Summits for $6700 and if I wanted to, they sell for $8000 on the used market. Same logic applies to my soon-to-be acquired Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors.

Especially since you're in a good and prime position considering you are buying what is essentially what I call LIQUID investment, meaning the bookshelf speaker... I advice that you go non-DIY. Bookshelves are very very easy to resell.. why? Because of their size and ease of shipping.

You're in a perfect position to get something truly great now... use it for a few years... and then bump up once you're ready for that next step or when you feel the need to really go to that next step in audio.

At least, that's my opinion.

You can build your DIY speaker, and just like your PC and all the other PCs that we all build on hardforum, you will never see that money ever again.
 
Fryguy8 said:
What do you think about paradigm S4s? Seem like they might be too big, and the tweeter will be way too off axis to be useful.
Click to expand...

And what do you mean off axis? Vertically or horizontally?

Either way, Paradigm is based on a national research in Canada and their main premise is an amazing dispersion character. If anything, this is one speaker that you will have to worry the least about when it comes to dispersion and off-axis listening.

Also, make sure you power these speakers right and you give them the proper source.

A $3000 speaker and an XFi card will not yield the majority of the nuances that makes a speaker great, as an example.

What's your source and what have you got for your preamp and what have you got for amplification?
 
my source is currently a modified zhaolu 2.5 dac balanced out to a behringer a500, with an sm pro audio m-patch2 acting as a pre-amp of sorts in between. Not the best signal path in the world but eh. I'm not too much of a believer in the differences of higher-end amplifiers. Not sure if you remember me, but we've had this conversation before, and I'm going to leave it at that. Not that I'm not going to upgrade, just that I'd rather have $600 source with $3000 speakers rather than vice versa.

And I'm a pretty honest believer that this is the highest I'll end up spending on these speakers. I most likely won't get the upgrade bug on the speakers if I do it right the first time.

And the off-axis I'm worried about is vertical. In a TMM with the tweeter on the top while sitting on a desk, it's height has the potential to be quite elevated relative to head-height, leading to potential problems, whereas an MTM will almost certainly put it almost exactly at head level. MTM just seems like a far better solution for near-field large bookshelves over TMM, and I think in my case, with my sonic preferences I'm going to want a speaker that uses 2 midbass drivers.
 
Im not going to try and convince you with regards to amplification differences... though I dont remember having this convo with you before. Anyway, your DAC should be borderline good enough to scale up to $3K speakers. Your amp... eh. But that's me.

Dont get too hung up on having to have MTM vs TMM or what not. The thing is, in all reality, with you being so close, you're better off going with a TM speaker for prime coherence between the tweeter and the midrange woofer. Besides, there's faaaar more that goes into speaker sonics than the driver configuration... there's crossover, materials used, drivers used, time/phase alignments, dampening, etc... the list goes on. Rather than restricting yourself into a bias based on speaker driver configuration, I'd suggest you go out there and listen to a lot with your own music (not MP3) and bring your DAC and amp with you.

As a side note to your dilemma with the S4 being a tad too tall.... you can always adjust via height of the speaker stand.

And I dont believe that this is your last stint with speakers, regardless of how right you get this one. You're probably my age or slightly younger, you have way more than 50 years ahead of you.... to say this is your final speaker is wishful thinking.
 
adjusting with height isn't an option, since they will be sitting on my computer desk flanking my monitor. So speaker positioning becomes more important since I'm limited with adjustability.
 
Fryguy8 said:
adjusting with height isn't an option, since they will be sitting on my computer desk flanking my monitor. So speaker positioning becomes more important since I'm limited with adjustability.
Click to expand...

That's fair enough...

I gave you a list of stuff to audition, ball's in your court.

Good luck with the adventure. :)
 
Thanks man I appreciate it.

For reference, any specific suggestions in a lower price range? say 1-2k? Just want to get a sense of the overlap.
 
Fryguy8 said:
Thanks man I appreciate it.

For reference, any specific suggestions in a lower price range? say 1-2k? Just want to get a sense of the overlap.
Click to expand...

Lower price range?

The Paradigm S2 at the top of that.... then start with the newly revised Paradigm Reference 40 v4. Other than those two, I would echo again, the Polk LSi9, the Reference 1, the Sonus Faber Concertino Domus, the ACI XL, and the Profile 908.
 
I just bought some HiFi in the 1-2k range, and have tried the following

Focal JMLabs 816V --> If you liked Focal Car Audio, these should impress
B&W 6 series --> Garbage IMO
Dali Ikon 6 --> Very crisp and clear, in fact, too clear for me, silly as that is to say
Dynaudio Audience 52, 62 --> I bought the 62s :p
Totem Rainmaker, Model 1 --> Model 1 is an amazing bookshelf
Paradigm Booskelves, don't know exact model --> WAY to bright for me
Monitor Audio S6 --> Does many things very well, but ultimately there was something about the sound that wasn't for me... can't even pinpoint it
Epos M16 --> Good speakers, very neutral
Quad 22L --> Great Finish, Great sound... good value now, end of line I think


And have also tried (My Reference Speakers):

Sonus Faber Cremonas: I thought they were good, but have the feeling you were paying alot for the cabinet... I've heard better for less, but they are REALLY attractive speakers.

Wilson Audio Sophias: Pretty good overall, I liked the sound alot. A tad bright for my tastes, but imaging, soundstaging, and overall dynamics were A+ (they're big heavy speakers, after all)
 
Fryguy8 said:
Thanks man I appreciate it.

For reference, any specific suggestions in a lower price range? say 1-2k? Just want to get a sense of the overlap.
Click to expand...

If youre doing nearfield why not get some studio monitors from dynaudio?? Thats what i would do no doubt.

I honestly wouldnt drop $3000 on a nice pair of dali euphoria bookshelves (what i would get for $3000), until i had the environment the speakers were meant to be listened in
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top