It's happening, affordable 4k OLED TV's are finally becoming a reality

Its really hard to go back to lcd after using Oled for awhile.... I tried it last night, although the lag isn't horrible on the 55ec9300 ( 29-36ms for the middle bar, oddly its alot lower then my Pioneer Elite pro101 I had ) I was supremely doing horrible in Forza 6 with all assist off, every-time I started to lose control I could not save the car because of the lag.

So I tried an lcd I had which has a little bit less lag ( leo bodnar I have was showing about 2-5ms less lag) so in other words you cant feel a difference between the display BUT my goodness guys.. the lcd is a Samsung 32d5000 which has a VA panel , it also has PWM and its static contrast it has was just under 5000:1 when I got it ISF calibrated a few years ago by D-Nice. In other words its not horrible in lcd standards.

Anyway racing at night in Forza 6 on the ring is incredible on the Oled and awe inspiring! It really makes it soo believable in person whereas on the lcd it did not evoke the same feelings. I was also surprised that even with the oled light at 60 and contrast at 80 it was still ALOT brighter then the ISF calibrated lcd at 120cdm.

I just really wish they would reduce the ABL on the oled and reduce the lag, oh the vertical banding at low ire ( 5-10%) which I can sometime see in the sky of Forza when panning/turning in the game, LG is sooo close with this tech!!!
 
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Cool Vibrations said:
Dropping in this thread to chime in... co-worker just bought a new LG OLED 4k TV (55EG9600) and he called me over to hear my thoughts about it since he knows I'm an avid gamer and I take my displays very seriously.

First off, this is a pretty damn good TV. Black levels are great but black uniformity needs work. Contrast is remarkable, a big leap vs. LCDs and power consumption is fantastic. The curved screen didn't bother me at all so I have really nothing to say about it. It's a non-issue for me. He told me the colors were already pretty good out of the box but it's been professionally calibrated and it looked good to me, although I would've liked to see the expanded gamut that should be included in UHD Blu-rays in the future.

When all is said and done, especially taking into account its price, the amount of years OLED has been in development, and the types of applications it's already been deployed for... I'm not impressed. Image quality was great but motion clarity isn't as great as I thought it'd be. I noticed they didn't include a feature to mitigate image retention either, was expecting at least (AIRPO or a scrolling bar).

OLED as a technology still needs a lot of work or maybe I've overestimated how big the leap was going to be. Perhaps the technology has been hyped so much that I've expecting a lot more from it but there is some promise.

If someone were to ask me what would be the best TV right now, I would automatically refer them to ZT60/F8500. I'd wait for a few more manufacturers to start adopting OLED before pulling the trigger unless you have cash to burn, then go for it.
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The technological leap of OLED won't be realized for at least 3-5 more years when they start introducing it in very thin paper like format that you can roll up. I'm thinking phones that can be expanded into the size of a tablet by pushing a button and rolling out the screen. It will also be really nice in commercial applications with transparent backgrounds. For HT, that leap won't be there until they resolve those issues you mentioned.
 
You're never going to get rid of motion blur unless the screen flickers or you run at like 1000hz.

I'm looking forward to 1000hz+ monitors, because flickering blows.
 
bigbluefe said:
You're never going to get rid of motion blur unless the screen flickers or you run at like 1000hz.

I'm looking forward to 1000hz+ monitors, because flickering blows.
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You would also have to run the game at 1000fps, otherwise sample and hold blur still has an effect. :)
 
Has anyone seen some spectrum distribution graphs for the LG tv's? What really bothers me is that, unlike samsung, I've heard that they use white led's with color filters. But shouldn't white OLED's produce much better whites compared to led's anyway as seen in the LG lighting products?
 
bigbluefe said:
I'm looking forward to 1000hz+ monitors, because flickering blows.
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And I'm looking forward to monitors and tv's with 3d lut's because inaccurate colors and gamuts suck. Actually, panasonic announced a 3d lut oled tv sometime ago iirc, so it's happening too.
 
Polar_Fox said:
Has anyone seen some spectrum distribution graphs for the LG tv's? What really bothers me is that, unlike samsung, I've heard that they use white led's with color filters. But shouldn't white OLED's produce much better whites compared to led's anyway as seen in the LG lighting products?
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Yes. especially since LG OLED's have four sub-pixels, with a white one being pure and unfiltered.
 
CNET's flat 65" OLED (4K) review is up. The verdict: Best TV available. If you need a 55" or 65" TV and have the money, buy it. There is no sustitute.

Would have scored a perfect 10 if not for "value" rating.

(banding on very dark test patterns still present).

http://www.cnet.com/products/lg-ef9500/
 
Has anyone heard anything about when/if OLED plans to stop using "sample and hold?"

That might be when I jump in. That, or when 65" models come down to around $2500 and/or my son isn't quite as at risk for destroying it. Whichever comes first.

If I heard that OLED was going to die and be abandoned, I'd go out and get one today, no matter the cost.
 
Hurin said:
Has anyone heard anything about when/if OLED plans to stop using "sample and hold?"

That might be when I jump in. That, or when 65" models come down to around $2500 and/or my son isn't quite as at risk for destroying it. Whichever comes first.

If I heard that OLED was going to die and be abandoned, I'd go out and get one today, no matter the cost.
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The Samsung OLED released in 2013 had a BFI option

There are rumors they might be re-entering the market in 2017. Perhaps LG will get around to implementing it next year, but I haven't heard anything. At any rate, with 4K now tackled and yields improving dramatically, it seems like it's the time for them to start spending more time on improving processing.
 
x3sphere said:
The Samsung OLED released in 2013 had a BFI option

There are rumors they might be re-entering the market in 2017. Perhaps LG will get around to implementing it next year, but I haven't heard anything. At any rate, with 4K now tackled and yields improving dramatically, it seems like it's the time for them to start spending more time on improving processing.
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This is OLED and not LCD so of course what I'm about to say may not apply at all. Wouldn't these TV's with their 60Hz refresh rates suffer from insane flickering if using some sort of strobing? If they do start to use strobing wouldn't it be best to wait for a 4k with real 120Hz? Again this is OLED so maybe the issues seen with 60Hz strobed LCDs may not apply.
 
OLED has nearly instantaneous pixel response, unlike LCD. The reason there is motion blur is because OLEDs are not typically capable of the light output necessary to blank the screen for a significant amount of time between frames.

You can certainly make OLEDs that would accept considerably higher refresh rates to decrease motion blur, of course, and some OLEDs do use low persistence where brightness is not as critical. The Oculus DK2 runs its OLED at 75hz with a duty cycle of 2ms/13ms. Since it's right on top of your eyes in the pitch darkness of the goggles, it can sacrifice a lot of brightness. For a TV you can't sacrifice that much brightness over the current maximum output of OLEDs but of course this is continually improving.

Personally I don't much care about motion clarity on TVs that I mostly use to watch 24fps content because, well, there's only 24 frames of motion data there to begin with... but I would surely love a 144hz OLED display with a 1/7ms duty cycle for PC gaming.

I have an F8500 and I've also watched things on the LG OLEDs and it's absolutely wild to me to suggest the F8500 is better. It just isn't. Genuine 0cd, pure black is a completely different experience. The 4K OLEDs are just unreal, and these are the first few commercial generations. I dearly hope LG's OLED business has no issues, because OLED is just a vastly superior tech compared to any previous display tech that has made it to commercial production. OLED will make hundreds of hz refresh rates possible with true black infinite contrast, better color reproduction and near-perfect motion clarity in the future. And it will do it all in a package that you can paste onto your wall like wallpaper, using less power per area than ever before.
 
I think our best chances at a gaming OLED is with Panasonic. They have a track record of including Displayport on some of their 4K TV models. If DP 1.3 actually hits in the next couple of years, a DP 1.3 120 Hz 4K OLED by Panasonic is possible. As long as they keep input lag sub 30ms, it would definitely be the display to have.
 
Polar_Fox said:
And I'm looking forward to monitors and tv's with 3d lut's because inaccurate colors and gamuts suck.
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Most mid-high tier TV's do have 3D LUTs (independent hue/saturation/luminance controls for RGBCMY). The problem is they are not always implemented properly, and in LG's case really don't work properly at all, producing very bad colour artefacts. A lot of the reviews advise to leave these controls alone on the LG's.

I've had a couple of Samsung plasmas where the 3D LUT doesn't work properly either. For example I could skew the red and yellow adjustments to their maximum red values, and this would not have any effect on skin tones in between the red and yellow axes. Only a very narrow band of reds and yellows were affected. Haven't had a go at a Panasonic yet, maybe they are better :)

The other issue is of course getting a meter that can actually read colours accurately enough to even do a 3D LUT calibration. For that you will need to drop at least $5,000 on a meter. Consumer grade offerings from Xrite/Spyder may work ok on one display, but terrible on another. I've had lots of mixed results with these cheap meters and would not trust them to produce an accurate result. All they are good for really is brightness measurements, which is still pretty useful for setting peak brightness and gamma, and possibly linearising whatever white balance is chosen.
 
I've also thought OLED would have performed more strongly by this point if not for marketing reasons, and part of that is the "LED" displays that brands (I think Samsung started this?) were quick to start selling when they were really just fancy backlights in standard LCDs. I thought it was dumb to call them that and the wait for OLED had begun even way back then, and by now I'll bet most consumers would be hard-pressed to tell you the difference between a LED and an OLED TV, only that it costs much more and they can't tell the difference (though to me it feels like anyone should be able to tell the difference with their eyes closed!).

I feel like they've killed the chance to use OLED as a buzzword and created too much confusion in the mind of the casual buyer to sell them as effectively. I've been to many friends and relatives' houses that still watch cable channels on standard definition because they just watch the channels from 1-200 or so, no matter how many times I point out to them that the HD channels are the higher-numbered ones and they should watch those instead. And they don't care!! Which is mind-boggling! We're enthusiasts here....the average joe is going to walk into a Walmart, pick the pretty overboosted bright LCD that's cheap, and go home. They'll believe whatever nonsense the sales guys spew to move the ones they want most. If this wasn't the case, my beloved Pioneer Kuro would still be in production!

So my hope is that this going to change now that OLED has sufficiently decreased in price that it's becoming more plausible to sell mainstream, and then Best Buy and whoever is going to start pushing those and setting them to maximize their visual benefits in showrooms....It'll be like the fatter profit margins of 10 years ago when LCDs were still pushing out CRTs. Only it'll be a more difficult sell from a marketing standpoint as the main driver over tubes had been the size and weight savings (and brightness! my god the brightness they set them to!), but I hope the tech matures enough that we'll start seeing them in smaller screens and monitors in quantity eventually. I don't need a 4K OLED just yet, but the price is almost there....and if they take care of this sample-and-hold business and get the lag down, I'm in! Plasmas? We don't need no plasmas!! I don't have to show you any stinking plasmas!!
 
I think you have a point with the marketing thing. I know a few people that have seen a curved OLED in person and thought it was amazing, but they had no idea it is a completely new type of display and thought it was just the fact that it was curved that made it look so good. They didn't even notice it said OLED instead of "LED. And they wouldn't realize it was something different if they did.
 
This is so true.
For years Samsung have been able to sell planetloads of whatever crap essentially because they've mastered 'surfing' on the total ignorance of the ultra-majority casual crowd.
Whoever wishes OLED to sell like hot cakes in the near future will have to understand this.

Again as I may have mentioned before; while plasma had been available for many years all around the world, until the end of production I am positive 99% of the people when on to buy a new set...still had no friggin' idea what the actual advantages of plasma over LCD were.

PS: At my ex-job among other products I was for a time responsible for the consumer TV business, and trust me that was one of the most frustrating one can imagine: extremely bothersome to handle and customers definitely had no idea what they were buying, any attempt at 'educating' them was guaranteed to be a waste of time.
But you could hear them talk about smartphones for hours, yeah, God, they knew better than our most-informed sales reps lol.
 
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All of the above will be moot if indeed OLED comes down in price over the next year or three as expected. That trend is already underway and if anything has accelerated in the last year. If LG (and now Panasonic and Samsung) can just keep OLED alive until economies of scale kick in, OLED will find its place in the wider market.

Once OLED TVs are just a few hundred dollars more expensive (rather than thousands), they'll be a no-brainer upgrade for even the casual buyer. At that point, they'll be "the best for only a few hundred more" and as backup all any sales rep (or picky buyer) will have to do is read any review online which will say unequivocally that the OLED display is infinitely superior.

So yeah. Right now we're still stuck with idiot buyers purchasing crap because it's cheap. But even those idiots will buy something better when the price differential isn't quite so crazy.
 
Polar_Fox said:
Has anyone seen some spectrum distribution graphs for the LG tv's? What really bothers me is that, unlike samsung, I've heard that they use white led's with color filters. But shouldn't white OLED's produce much better whites compared to led's anyway as seen in the LG lighting products?
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You can realize 98CRI or more with good white led setups. Of course this requires a very wide spectrum of phosphor mixes. Mostly remote phosphor from what I've seen.
 
Do any TVs at all accept 120hz input properly without overclocking shenanigans? I'm pretty sure you would need Displayport for 4K@120hz input too.
 
Sancus said:
Do any TVs at all accept 120hz input properly without overclocking shenanigans? I'm pretty sure you would need Displayport for 4K@120hz input too.
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I hear the Vaporwhare Fooah Kay Footee is slated to deliver the goods sometime never soon!
 
Sancus said:
Do any TVs at all accept 120hz input properly without overclocking shenanigans? I'm pretty sure you would need Displayport for 4K@120hz input too.
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None that I know of. Only some 3DTV's accept 120hz as custom resolution because it wrongly detects it as active 3D video signal. Does even Displayport have enough bandwidth for 120hz 4K? We just barely got 60Hz 4K with HDMI 2.0.
 
Considering HDMI only supports 8bit and dp only just handles 10bit at 4k60, there is no way in hell to do 120hz without severely gimping something. Monochrome? Lol.
Edit, pretty sure the dell 5k screen uses two dp cables, so could be a way to temporarily do it
 
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Vega said:
I think our best chances at a gaming OLED is with Panasonic. They have a track record of including Displayport on some of their 4K TV models. If DP 1.3 actually hits in the next couple of years, a DP 1.3 120 Hz 4K OLED by Panasonic is possible. As long as they keep input lag sub 30ms, it would definitely be the display to have.
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I would pay a lot of money for that.

Heck, I'd be happy (for now) with one of LG's 60Hz sets if they could knock the lag down and reduce/eliminate the sample-and-hold motion blur.
 
This is no where near my idea of affordable. When they are $1,000 I'll buy one
 
I was experimenting with the EC9300 last night, my goal was to see if I could stop the ABL from kicking in and reduce the vertical banding on the tv.

This is my findings:

I was playing Forza 6 in PC mode and in game mode, oled light at 60 and contrast at 80 , brightness at 50, w50 color. I noticed as soon as I began to race the tv was dimming all over the place that had white letters ( time, place, speedometer, the clouds in the sky aswell!)

So I did this, I reduced the contrast to 59 and put the oled light to 80. The picture still looked fantastic and reminded me more of the Elite pro101 I had in the past.

These settings turned off the ABL on the set! Now full screen white and the white letters in Forza 6 and the clouds do not dim!

An interesting side effect of this was that it reduced the vertical banding to the point where even if I try to look for it, I can't see it!

Please try these settings and enjoy the no ABL. Even normal tv benefits from this, especially full screen white commercials and full screen colors, no more dimming.

This was all done on the newest firmware 5.00.15. I also checked with my Leo Bodnar and on PC mode with game mode which is the lowest lag possible on this set ( I have tried every setting and hdmi input etc) I am now getting 29ms-35ms for the middle bar. At times on the 5.00.05 firmware I was getting some weird spikes to 42-47 ms for the middle bar, that is gone now, its back to what it was before the 5.00.05 update which seemed to cause some issues.
 
Hmm, interesting. Although it uses the same LG oled panel, sounds like all the money went back into the electronics to back up the panel. Not sure how twice the cost for the same panel backed by upgraded electronics is going to go over with purchasers though.
 
Nice job Panasonic, but given that it's using LG panels this is great for LG too -- just means they'll sell that many more panels since other brands are buying them to use in their own product. LG themselves are probably more concerned with driving down prices than optimizing quality with no expense spared. And that's the right move, for OLED to stick around it has to become price competitive with LCD.
 
Polar_Fox said:
How do you even review displays without measuring colors? These "reviews'' should be disregarded as subjective impressions.
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It actually doesn't much matter in this case. The only competition for this display is LGs own OLED, non-OLED displays are all garbage, and plasma is dead.

It's enormously, absurdly unlikely that this TV has color issues that the LG OLEDs do not, and it resolves the only major issue with the LG OLEDs, which was black levels just above absolute black.
 
Sancus said:
which was black levels just above absolute black.
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You mean the banding in black levels that aren't absolute black? Or an inability to achieve absolute black. If the former, cool. If the latter, that's news to me!
 
If these expensive OLED TVs don't support FreeSync, though, they're a waste of time.

I'm never buying a fixed refresh monitor again. Not good enough.
 
I just want an OLED that's <= 48"...

EDIT: but still a TV. haha don't want a phone/tablet.
 
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