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Is Apple making an 'iPad Pro' with a stylus?
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I wouldn't count on a 3rd party equivalent to the Pencil anytime soon.
heatlesssun
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There were indeed pretty careful about almost always adding the condition. Considering that Microsoft was there to help with the launch it would have been kind of awkward if they hadn't.
To be fair the Surface line was far from the beginning of the productivity tablet. And it indeed these devices have long had a lot of problems. But the Surface Pro 3 got the overall vision and execution better than anything before it. And it looks like everyone has taken notice in the OEM space, Lenovo's Mix 700 is nothing but an copy of the Surface Pro 3 and no Apple has just joined the party.
I guess the most interesting thing about the iPad Pro is the pencil. I know a lot of Apple folks never thought of them as very useful but they really do change the nature of tablet and there's no way to sell a tablet at this price I think, even if is an iPad, without one. This actually could be good news for Windows tablet folks as I imagine that a lot of these pen based apps will make it into the Windows world because I doubt the iPad Pro is going to outsell out pen capable Windows devices and it's getting easier to port iOS apps over to Windows.
The price is a bit tricky. This looks to be more targeted as professionals and possibly students than businesses because even with the pen and keyboard cover it's still a tablet without PC like capabilities. Designers and artistic folks will probably love it and don't have the same desire to run desktop apps as a business looking for a 2 in 1. Though students might like it but see more cost effectiveness with a Windows hybrid.
Looking forward to the reviews.
I didnt say equivalent or the same. I said it would work just fine. Sure if you want the full features of that pencil then you have to shell out $100+tax. That's a little stip for Joe Average but if you're enthusiast then that's a different story. Good luck apple selling this iPad Pro to Average Joe.
heatlesssun
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That's not at all the target market for this device. The price in and of itself isn't problematic. The problem for the iPad Pro is existing competition and in particular the Surface Pro line. While I'm sure the Apple has really well tuned the experience so have a lot of other folks for this class of device and my guess is the Surface Pro 4 is going to be a formidable challenger. Often Apple doesn't have solid competition when it does things new for Apple.
My initial impression is that this will do well with artists and designers but misses the mark for businesses and students a bit because it will bring nothing new at all for now at least at a price point with lots of good competition that's better established.
They're not the target user. Just like everything else Apple sells with "Pro" attached, it's got a bunch of stuff unnecessary for Joe Average.
Michaelius
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It certainly makes SP3 look like bargain
heatlesssun
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Pretty sure it won't. The digitizer on the Pro looks to me to be a dual style electrostatic one similar to the Surface Pro 3 that's designed to pick up signals from the pen that are separate from touch, that's how palm rejection work with this type of technology.
The iPad Pro is targeted towards professionals. A few of our designers are really interested in the product (and we are an Apple ecosystem company). Price isn't really an issue for business expenses; it's actually reasonable if you compare it to Wacom's offerings (that is if you are an illustrator/designer). And who knows at this point how well the Pro operates against a Cintiq. Probably not at the same level yet.
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I see the iPad Pro and Surface Pro as different sides of the same coin. The iPad is more for people who like iOS, but want more powerful hardware; the Surface Pro is for Windows users who want more mobile hardware. There's a degree of overlap, but they're going to appeal to somewhat different audiences.
heatlesssun
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I believe that this a very correct assessment. I see the iPad Pro as more of a tool for designers and artists and something like the Surface as a more general purpose productivity tablet/hybrid device.
bman212121
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Interesting with 4 speakers and the scaling to run original iPad apps side by side
That's still one of the biggest problems with iOS. None of the apps can handle scaling. You end up with the funky resolution used on their device because it's a multiple of the original ipad. 1024 x 768 multiplied by 2.667 is the dimensions of the new screen size. When rotated it's an exact 2x duplication of the original image. Most apps are just stretched to fit rather than made to support multiple screen sizes.
You sound like you haven't used an iOS device in years. Old and unprepared apps were indeed upscaled when @2x became a thing. Now, every app is prepared for every supported resolution for its targeted version of iOS—apps won't pass certification for the App Store otherwise. There's no need for an iOS app to handle dynamic scaling when resolutions are precisely defined.
Oh, and to be on topic… iPad Pro, meh, whatever. I'm mildly surprised this happened, because there doesn't seem to be a great use case for a 13'' iPad (especially when the prices overlap with the MacBook Air), or tablets with double digit sizes in general.
heatlesssun
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As soon I heard the rumors of this device, especially with the pen and considering the state of the consumer tablet market it made perfect sense to me. I know that a lot of people in this forum don't get the appeal of a large pen enabled tablet but this market has been around a lot longer than the media consumption one. And there's two things about it that are very different from media consumption buyers which make perfect sense for a company especially like Apple that lives on high margin hardware though it's a much smaller market.
One, buyers in this market will spend the money for something that does the job well. And two, they'll do that year after year after year. It's as loyal a device market as there is I think. Plus over the years I've seen plenty of people wanting Apple to create a pen enabled device. They just kind of ignored it until they didn't really have a lot choice given the state of the consumer tablet market so it would be silly to ignore such a potentially loyal market at this point.
Not sure what I find more annoyingly incorrect: the idea that the iPad is strictly a media consumption device, or that Apple is some sort of passive bystander in the tablet arena.
heatlesssun
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I have a number of Windows tablets of various sizes, ranging from the 7" screen HP Stream 7 to a 12" screen Surface Pro 3. Even though they are both running the same OS (well 32 vs 64 bit Windows, still functionally the same) one is a media consumption device and the other is not. Screen size has everything to do with making a tablet more of productivity device. Apple made this very same point in their iPad Pro presentation.
And as far as Apple being passive in the tablet market, well it's hard to see where they've lead in a while. Sure the iPad Pro looks to be great hardware with a beautiful screen and should do well for the target market. But a large screen tablet with a smart connector for an optional keyboard cover and digital pen? That's just plain copying elements out of a higher margin market that's seeing much better growth than smaller, media consumption based devices. It's beyond obvious to anyone looking at it honestly and considering that I started this thread eight months ago and it pretty much all was as the rumors said I'm not just making stuff up or bashing Apple but seeing like it is.
bman212121
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I've never used an iOS device cause I'm not that silly.
And in big stars, *for the ios version at the time of it's release.* I'm not seeing anything in that marketing speak that states that an app targeted for an older version of iOS won't run on a newer one. I've never heard of anyone complain that they got their new ipad and their 6 year old version of Angry Birds wouldn't install now because the dev didn't update it to support the newest device. And we're not just saying that they took an did a quick recompile to make it run, they took an app that was designed for 480 x 320 and make it work flawlessly at 3272 x 2048 without stretching any of the textures or UI to fit the screen.
defaultluser
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This is the first time Microsoft caught Apple napping in a long time.
There's no support for touch in OS X - you have to pay over a hundred dollars for a 3rd-party driver, and then it's not clean integration. So instead we get this hodgepodge pos intended to compete with a Surface Pro 3 running on iOS, a PARAGON of productivity
Snooorrrree. It's going to take them at least the same 3 years to get the convergence down right like MS did, so they're fucked
There's no support for touch in OS X - you have to pay over a hundred dollars for a 3rd-party driver, and then it's not clean integration. So instead we get this hodgepodge pos intended to compete with a Surface Pro 3 running on iOS, a PARAGON of productivity
Snooorrrree. It's going to take them at least the same 3 years to get the convergence down right like MS did, so they're fucked
heatlesssun
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This is the first time Microsoft caught Apple napping in a long time.
There's no support for touch in OS X - you have to pay over a hundred dollars for a 3rd-party driver, and then it's not clean integration. So instead we get this hodgepodge pos intended to compete with a Surface Pro 3 running on iOS, a PARAGON of productivity
Snooorrrree. It's going to take them at least the same 3 years to get the convergence down right like MS did, so they're fucked
Microsoft took a ton of risk and made a lot of mistakes with Windows 8. I can't really blame Apple nor anyone else for dissing the idea of a hybrid OS in 2012. But at the same time it does seem to be inevitable. Windows 8's mistakes as Windows 10 seem to be proving were not inherent to the idea but much more about Windows 8's mistakes. And when Microsoft got it's act together and dumped the idea on Windows RT devices and reduced x86 Windows licensing costs and Intel got Atom on a good path and the release of the Surface Pro 3 and Surface 3, the hybrid idea started to make a lot more sense, especially when the consumer tablet market started to nose dive.
I think Apple will eventually do a hybrid OS as eventually they will run up against better and better hybrid hardware that makes it tough to justify an expensive mobile OS only device.
kbrickley
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Scaling works a lot better now and I am sure that a few companies will modify their apps to run natively at the new size and resolution ... even if they don't then iOS 9 will allow multitasking so you could turn the pad sideways and run apps natively side by side where they would still benefit from the newer chip and resolution
defaultluser
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Oh, certainly. That's why I stated how many years behind they were. Inevitably they will find a way to make touch work without breaking OS X TOO badly
One thing I will give them credit for here: they're also using this as an opportunity to get people used to an ARM-powered productivity machine. That's a first for Apple, who deferred to Intel for the Macbook 12". We'll have to see if this trend continues once they merge OS X and iOS. We've known for years the plan is to ditch x86 entirely, it's just a question of "when."
Right now Apple needs the Mac because all iOS development is done on it. A future in which all iOS development can be done directly on iOS is a future where the Mac (and thus OS X and the paradigm it represents) doesn't need to exist at all in its current form. Personally I think the Mac will be around quite some time, but that Apple will slowly cannibalize it with more productivity-focused iOS devices, in the process taking what they need from OS X and adding it to iOS. iOS devices will never run a traditional WIMP desktop like OS X and Windows are, but OS X and iOS may be able to run apps built from the same code at some point. Apple set the foundation for all of this in place with Swift some time ago.
heatlesssun
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I just think at some point the question "Why can't I run OS X apps on a device that has a screen bigger than some Macs?" And I think that's a pretty logical question that will eventually have to have some kind of equivalent from in time if the hybrid market has long term growth and Windows 10 does well. Three years ago it was much easier to say that hybrid devices were stupid and that you can't do a hybrid OS without compromising something considering how badly Windows 8 was received overall. But two different devices is also a compromise, just a different one.
It's going to be interesting how this all goes.
I shouldn't be surprised they dropped the ball on this... I was interested in it to a degree since I dabble with digital painting but I can't stand drawing on my iPad when I had one which is why I went Surface Pro. There's no point to the iPad Pro IMO if one really wanted to do digital art on iOS just get an older iPad and one of the active styluses by Adonit or Wacom and save a ton of $$. For that kind of $$ the Surface Pro is the clear winner for anyone interested in doing digital art.
heatlesssun
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I think Apple is doing the right thing for now. The iPad Pro is in part a tactical response to the faltering consumer tablet market. A whole scale strategic shift to a hybrid concept is overkill. A hybrid tablet is not easy to do, just ask Microsoft and the decade long failure it had with tablet PCs. Windows 8 was a high risk strategic move where Microsoft was trying to address the tablet market that was much stronger three years ago and with no tablet ecosystem Microsoft leveraged the Windows desktop, over estimated the strength of the tablet market, poorly executed and thus failed to go anywhere.
At this time Apple doesn't need to take these kinds of risks especially with the hybrid market that while growing is still pretty small and still far form certain as a long term substantial market though I think it will be and not long from now.
Apple looks to have a sexy piece of hardware that should do well in the artistic market, add some profits back into the iPad line without much risk and not cannibalizing the Mac. For now it is a logical and solid move. But you have to imagine that Apple is working on a hybrid for sometime down the road.
VladDracule
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You mean the market that is completely blind to apples competition and the surface pro 3 which is superior in literally every single way
limitedaccess
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I don't think many people picked this up but the Ipad Pro Pencil has tilt support. This is actually pretty unique. Non of the Surface Pro iterations have had tilt support. I'm not actually aware of any Windows device with tilt support. I don't believe the Galaxy Note Pros support tilt either (although the newer Note phones do?). Even for Wacom dedicated drawing tablets the entry consumer line doesn't have tilt support, only the the professional Intous and Cintiq lines do.
Patience, grasshopper. Swift can make this distinction meaningless. .app and .ipa can just be different packaging formats for the same thing that wrap it in an interface appropriate for the target. Apple will have what Microsoft is calling Universal Apps long before trying some sort of hybrid OS.
So it runs all my apps? Out of the box? Without me having to re-buy or re-engineer any of them? Great, we'll take 1500.
"Superior in literally every single way" eh? The iPad has a leg up on the stylus, size, weight, screen resolution, screen aspect ratio and app store apps if you want to do base it on specs. The Surface has a leg up if you desire Windows applications and i3/i5/i7 performance.
The A8X already approached the low-end of Intel's processor range; it will be interesting what the A9X brings. It won't be anywhere near an i5 SP3 though.
The trackpad on the SP3 keyboard is not that great after using it for a few months. It's too small and not as responsive as a Macbook trackpad. The keyboard bounces too much when typing on it; I'm hoping that the short keyboard on the iPad Pro will improve on this.
I think the Air Pro will find its usage with people using it for work who aren't primarily programmers or excel jockeys for a living. I'd love to have one when I'm out in the field so I can pull up equipment manuals or take notes while troubleshooting. You can do that on the SP3 but the apps aren't there for it yet (kidding, Onenote is great but their PDF/eBook app selection was shit the last time I used one). It'll be interesting how Windows 10 changes things though.
The A8X already approached the low-end of Intel's processor range; it will be interesting what the A9X brings. It won't be anywhere near an i5 SP3 though
.The trackpad on the SP3 keyboard is not that great after using it for a few months. It's too small and not as responsive as a Macbook trackpad. The keyboard bounces too much when typing on it; I'm hoping that the short keyboard on the iPad Pro will improve on this.
I think the Air Pro will find its usage with people using it for work who aren't primarily programmers or excel jockeys for a living. I'd love to have one when I'm out in the field so I can pull up equipment manuals or take notes while troubleshooting. You can do that on the SP3 but the apps aren't there for it yet
(kidding, Onenote is great but their PDF/eBook app selection was shit the last time I used one). It'll be interesting how Windows 10 changes things though.heatlesssun
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I'd agree with most of this but we know little about the iPad Pro's pen performance and I'm not sure how one can objectively state that a 4:3 aspect ratio is superior to 3:2.
I think the Air Pro will find its usage with people using it for work who aren't primarily programmers or excel jockeys for a living. I'd love to have one when I'm out in the field so I can pull up equipment manuals or take notes while troubleshooting. You can do that on the SP3 but the apps aren't there for it yet
Drawboard PDF isn't free but it is a very nice PDF viewer and inking markup Windows Store app.
Dropped the ball? The reality is despite being more expensive than a Surface Pro, when equipped with Stylus and Keyboard, and despite running on lower power SoC, and despite having less connectivity and expansion, and despite having a "less capable OS", the iPad Pro will outsell the Surface Pro.
Know nothings have been babbling about two things for a while that are never going to happen.
1: Full desktop OSX with touch controls.
2: Port Full desktop OSX, to ARM.
The reality is that iOS is OSX with touch controls already. There is almost zero value add in having another version of OSX with touch controls. It just brings confusion.
As far as porting full desktop OSX to ARM. Again this is nonsense. They already have OSX for ARM and it is called iOS. No need for an upheaval and massive expense of a switchover, which makes zero sense on higher end models.
Instead this is what will happen. iOS will grow up the food chain from the bottom. I was surprised that Apple is doing a stylus, since it is such a niche item.
The stylus gets the most press. But the real story here is the keyboard.
iPads didn't have to get this large to have a pen, but it did need to get this large to support a proper spaced keyboard.
While there have been third party keyboard cases for the current iPad, those have tiny, non standard spaced, toy keyboards.
This is the first serious move of iOS into the laptop space.
On the Apple side you can buy a
2015 Macbook:
2 lbs
12" 226 ppi
One Port
$1299
iPad Pro + Keyboard
<2lbs?
13" 264 ppi
One Port
$968
IMO this is step just step one. I expect eventually this will evolve into Apple bringing out a more laptop type machines running iOS. Something like a Lenova Yoga.
The power of an A9 is probably already good enough for what the majority of people do with a laptop.
So Desktop OSX won't go touch. iOS will go latpop. Any overlap will be from iOS growing up the food chain.
The economics/power envelope of iOS/ARM latops will be really nice...
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VladDracule
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"Superior in literally every single way" eh? The iPad has a leg up on the stylus, size, weight, screen resolution, screen aspect ratio and app store apps if you want to do base it on specs. The Surface has a leg up if you desire Windows applications and i3/i5/i7 performance.
The A8X already approached the low-end of Intel's processor range; it will be interesting what the A9X brings. It won't be anywhere near an i5 SP3 though
The trackpad on the SP3 keyboard is not that great after using it for a few months. It's too small and not as responsive as a Macbook trackpad. The keyboard bounces too much when typing on it; I'm hoping that the short keyboard on the iPad Pro will improve on this.
I think the Air Pro will find its usage with people using it for work who aren't primarily programmers or excel jockeys for a living. I'd love to have one when I'm out in the field so I can pull up equipment manuals or take notes while troubleshooting. You can do that on the SP3 but the apps aren't there for it yet
Yeah until your pen dies because of its 1 hour battery life and you left your charge cable out in the office, good luck with that. Nobody has even touched the stylus and so far as i can tell, the ipad pro doesnt have palm rejection which makes its writing implementation subpar at best. App store apps, i can virtually gaurantee every single one of your apps will have a replacement on windows. Trackpad -> Ipad pro has none
And no, it wont sell more than the Surface pro. Hell just look at EVERY SINGLE ipad forum that has a thread about the announcement, every single person is saying it is completely pointless to buy one when the SP3 is out
heatlesssun
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I guess expensive large screen tablets are already niche. But within that niche a digital pen is simply a must for much of the target audience and being niche already that market needs to maximize the number of potential buyers.
While I'm sure the keyboard will get more use on iPad Pros than the pen, $968 dollars for a device that's still iffy as a laptop isn't nearly the driving the driving force for now that the pen is.
heatlesssun
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The iPad Pro does have palm rejection, that was mentioned in the launch presentation. It's a powered pen which is probably an electrostatic pen like the SP3.
As for sales outlook, while the iPad Pro might outsell the SP4 I doubt it will by a huge margin and it's unlikely to outsell all large Windows tablet/hybrids combined. I think this last part might help out Windows tablets. I'm think a number of developers working on ink specific apps for the iPad Pro will port them over to Windows because there will be a large user base to sell to.
This is just more of the same, Apple will fail nonsense that has been proven wrong endlessly for over a decade. Stylus battery life is 12 hours/full charge. If you forgot to charge it, 30 minutes from a 15 second charge.
As far as no one testing the stylus:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9622/hands-on-with-the-ipad-pro-and-ipad-mini-4
Anandtech said:
Tablet size has little correlation (if any) to a need for a stylus.
But given your stylus fetish, no surprise you see it that way. But I bet the attach rate (sales) for the stylus is much lower than the keyboard.
Size and keyboard usability have a direct correlation. This is big for the keyboard, not the stylus.
I don't see this as any more iffy a laptop than a Surface Pro. Both of them have non optimal keyboard cases.
Which is why I think this is a stepping stone to a more laptop oriented iOS devices.
VladDracule
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Actually no, it was NEVER mentioned in the launch video, and nobody has commented on it since then, In fact, they said its designed to accept both pen and hand input simultaneously..."designed" which means it absolutely does not have palm rejection. Man apple fans will eat up whatever shit they launch no matter how inferior it is
Tyler-Durden
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FWIW, one of my best friends is a digital art designer at ILM. He and his team just got an approval for 12 with stylus and keyboards.
So, someone's gonna be buying these things.
So, someone's gonna be buying these things.