Is a 2 mile network realistic?

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DellAxim

Gawd
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Feb 14, 2003
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I lease a commercial building for my business, which happens to be just over 2 miles "as the crow flies" from my house. I need an internet connection at the shop badly but I can't really afford two. (one at home, one there) Being in on commercial property, I can't get a low cost DSL line, I have to sign up for some business plan.

Anyway, I'm wondering how possible it would be to setup a wireless network from my house 2 miles away. Everything I read talks about "line of sight"....can somebody elaborate on this? If I get on the roof of my house I don't think I can see the shop. The house is approximately 100 feet higher in elevation and it is flat in between, so theoretically I guess I could hit it with a bullet. There could be some trees/houses in the way but this is a small town.

I'm looking at a product like this that claims up to 4 miles of connectivity, but I know that is best case scenario.
http://www.wirelessnetworkproducts.com/hd26972.aspx

Can I realistically expect something like that to connect over half the distance claimed? (2 miles) Is it really that cheap/easy? $168 to share my internet from home would be fantastic, but seems to good to be true?! Is there something I am missing? I don't need high speed here, 1mbps would make me happy...
 
Line of Sight means no trees, buildings, any kind of structure in the way.

Any kind of obstruction is very bad for digital RF systems - multipath interference does some very nasty things to connections. Adding more power usually makes the connection worse.

Look at the Ubiquity networks products. Using tightly-directional antennas would also help.
 
How tall of an antenna mast can you mount on the commercial building? Will they even let you install something like that?
 
Try a couple Ubiquiti 900MHz Nanobridges. They come with dishes to focus the signal and 900MHz has the best chance of punching through some trees.
 
Can't you use something like mobile broadband thru a cell phone carrier?
 
The taller the antenna, the better the connection (taller antenna would move the Fresnel zone outside of the ground/tress/crrap).
 
Your first step is what you started by getting on your roof. You need to determine if you can setup a clear line of sight between the buildings.
 
Did you look into ClearWire? It's something like $40/month. We have a Subway franchise that has no cable or DSL service available and ClearWire works great for us. Not sure how fast the connection speed is, but it's way more than adequate for our web needs.
 
Subscribed because this is a topic relevant to me and that I find interesting and useful for future endeavors.
 
ripken204 said:
those 3g/4g plans are insanely priced and capped.
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I want to use things like a webcam and stream music from home....not gonna happen with a ~4gb allowance. 4G is not available at the shop.

Eickst said:
How tall of an antenna mast can you mount on the commercial building? Will they even let you install something like that?
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I don't plan on any height at all really, beyond a small satellite dish or something, since the building is about 100' in elevation lower than my house. (and no I wouldn't be allowed to use any kind of "mast") A small antenna of some sort should be fine.

Ehren8879 said:
Try a couple Ubiquiti 900MHz Nanobridges. They come with dishes to focus the signal and 900MHz has the best chance of punching through some trees.
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Those look nice...I thought lower frequencies didn't travel as far? What about the 5ghz range? Radio noise is one issue I can see around here, there are literally hundreds of 2.4ghz wifi systems under my 2 mile path.
 
Shadowspawn said:
Your first step is what you started by getting on your roof. You need to determine if you can setup a clear line of sight between the buildings.
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And what if I can't? There aren't any major obsticles but there could be a tree or something. Is a 2 mile network still possible without a complete line of sight?
 
I'll make it quick. The calculus work is done in this one already, and for each DOUBLING of antenna length, you SHOULD get 3 dBi of gain :) Enjoy!

http://www.wireless.org.au/~jhecker/helix/

You WILL want to read up on FCC rules, btw. Penalties can be HARSH if you break the rules.
 
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DellAxim said:
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I want to use things like a webcam and stream music from home....not gonna happen with a ~4gb allowance. 4G is not available at the shop.
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Probably not going to happen over a two mile wireless link either. I think you may need to consider re-adjusting your expectations.
 
I was thinking you should use two nano stations.....BUT If you have the patience you may be better served with (2) ubiquity bullets and using 24db directional dishes.

I would call ubiquity and ask them their opinion.

If you have perfect line of sight AND the fresnel zone is clear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_zone you should have no problems establishing a good connection over that distance.

Using the right equipment you can set up a wireless link over 20 miles, but you have to have the right equipment, set up the right way , with no interference and nothing in the fresnel zone. When you don't have all those items you start to lose, performance or reliability. A lot of what is being suggested here are good ideas. Do try to get clear line of sight and no obstacles in your fresnel zone. Use a frequency that no one or as few people as possible are using. Higher frequencies tend to have less noise, but can not go thought objects as well. Which is why most industrial wireless applications use 900mhz. 900mhz penetrates through objects better as opposed to 5Ghz which can be stopped by simple objects or even thin walls. There are also different limitations as to how much power you are allowed to use at certain frequencies. I believe the limits are far higher for 900mhz and 3.5Ghz than 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I can expand on this further.
 
maw said:
Probably not going to happen over a two mile wireless link either. I think you may need to consider re-adjusting your expectations.
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If he intends to use either wireless endpoint as a repeater, I agree he's screwed. But if he is only planning on using them as wireless bridges. There is a definite possibility that this can be done.

I've done a similar low latency link over 400' though trees with almost no line of site...so I know it is possible.
 
You can do a 900mhz link but I wouldn't expect any more than 1-2 Mbps out of it. If you are only using it for internet it should work. We have a few building to building links ranging from a couple hundred feet to several hundred yards, the 900 will give you better range/reliability (imo) but the 2.4 gives more bandwidth.

Our longest link is about 600-700 yards with 802.11g, simple bridge, works fine for the 3 PC's in the remote building. Cheaper than the tens of thousands running fiber underground would have cost us.
 
Confirmed over at the Ubiquity forum

The "2.4Ghz Nano Bridge" with shield kits (must have!) and setting the equipment in 10 MHz mode, and enabling channel shifting feature.

With two of these devices pointed directed at each "+- 3 degrees" other you should be able to achieve a rock solid low latency 10-12mbit connection at a distance of approx 2 miles...... again assuming you have a good line of sight.

NOTE this is NOT the same product as the Nano Station. The built in antenna array is completely different.

You can try to get more speed out of this setup, but the configuration list above has been confirmed and verified to work at a 2 mile distance with the measured performance listed.
 
2 miles are easy if you have line of sight. I'm using two NanoStations (NS2's) over a 1.7 mile link. I'm using them with an Andrew 24dBi grid dish at each end with only 16mW of power. I have used 15dBi grids with 21mW but I like the smaller beamwidth of the 24's (there's a subdivision of houses at one end).

If you can get a mast high enough it would work. In most jurisdictions you can go 20' above a structure before needing a permit.

http://www.ubnt.com/nanostation
 
You pay for what you get. It is going to be less economical to build a RELIABLE 2 mile link than to just get another internet contract. At least I don't think so. I would like to see how this goes, and maybe prove me wrong.
 
grimster said:
You pay for what you get. It is going to be less economical to build a RELIABLE 2 mile link than to just get another internet contract. At least I don't think so. I would like to see how this goes, and maybe prove me wrong.
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My thoughts exactly. Once you start talking about installing 20 ft masts on rooftops and beaming high power signals across town, I start thinking zoning and FCC violations. And so far, none of the suggestions are even remotely guaranteed to work, and even the ones that show some promise certainly wouldn't be enough for reliable multimedia streaming.
 
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grimster said:
You pay for what you get. It is going to be less economical to build a RELIABLE 2 mile link than to just get another internet contract. At least I don't think so. I would like to see how this goes, and maybe prove me wrong.
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The 900mhz Ubiquiti Nanobridge is only $160 on ebay and if I can get line of sight there is no reason I can't get a reliable signal. The cheapest internet connection would be about $60/month or $720/year. The equipment would easily pay for itself.

My only internet choices at the commercial address are DSL, "business class" cable, or wireless. I wanted a $14.95/month DSL line but I have to have a phone line as well to get that. I don't need a phone and DSL sucks.

maw said:
My thoughts exactly. Once you start talking about installing 20 ft masts on rooftops and beaming high power signals across town, I start thinking zoning and FCC violations. And so far, none of the suggestions are even remotely guaranteed to work, and even the ones that show some promise certainly wouldn't be enough for reliable multimedia streaming.
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Like I said, I don't plan on building a mast because of elevation differences, but if I did I would be allowed 30 feet on top of the roof by zoning. 100 feet at my commercial address. An long as you purchase legal FCC approved equipment they don't care. If I can get a line of sight there is no reason I can't get the "100+Mbps real outdoor throughput" the nanobridge claims at 30km.

If I can't get a perfect line of sight then I think I can still do it but I agree it would be less reliable. Still, the speeds would be plenty for media streaming. Like I said before, I only really need something as fast as a cheap 1.5mpbs DSL line. Either it connects or it doesn't, it's not going to connect slower than that.
 
Clear line of site with WDS turned on netted me ~50mbps, which should still do the job for you.
 
DellAxim said:
If I can't get a perfect line of sight then I think I can still do it but I agree it would be less reliable. Still, the speeds would be plenty for media streaming. Like I said before, I only really need something as fast as a cheap 1.5mpbs DSL line. Either it connects or it doesn't, it's not going to connect slower than that.
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Well, in spite of my skepticism, I do wish you luck. I think it would be awesome if you actually got it to work. Do let us know how it turns out.
 
This project is possible, but not practical. Most providers have options for small business. I'd explore all options and this would be my last one. Hell, maybe talk to some other businesses if you're friendly with them about splitting a wireless signal.
 
DellAxim said:
The 900mhz Ubiquiti Nanobridge is only $160 on ebay and if I can get line of sight there is no reason I can't get a reliable signal.
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If you set it up correctly, that will work, but you should expect 1-2Mbps max using the 900mhz equipment.
 
Mackintire said:
If you set it up correctly, that will work, but you should expect 1-2Mbps max using the 900mhz equipment.
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Why do you think through put will be so bad? I have a project in the works to switch out Alvarion 900 Mhz gear for Ubiquiti 900. Current Alvarion gets customers at best 1Mbps, so we looked at ubnt as a replacement. Are you saying that our customers 1 - 2.5 miles out aren't going to get more bandwidth?

In a lab environment I've gotten around 50Mbps throughput on the nanobridges.
 
Ligowave makes some dishes that will do what you want. You still have to have line-of-site though.

http://www.ligowave.com/

You may want to borrow a telescope to see if you can actually see the one building from the other.
 
Ehren8879 said:
Why do you think through put will be so bad? I have a project in the works to switch out Alvarion 900 Mhz gear for Ubiquiti 900. Current Alvarion gets customers at best 1Mbps, so we looked at ubnt as a replacement. Are you saying that our customers 1 - 2.5 miles out aren't going to get more bandwidth?

In a lab environment I've gotten around 50Mbps throughput on the nanobridges.
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Are your nanobridges 900mhz? The reason I ask is most every post I read over on the ubiquiti forums in regards to the 900mhz nanobridge tops out at around 10-12mbps at 800 feet. At 2 miles one user was able to get a stable line at 1-2mbps. The 2.4Ghz Nanobridges provide MUCH better throughput. And since the radiation pattern is so tight, interference is less of an issue with the nanobridge...compared to the wider less focused radiation pattern on the Nano Station.
 
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