iPhone And Apple Jumped The Shark

i have to wonder if people would still line up for iphone 16 if it looked similar to the iphone 5.

surely this mania can't go on forever. or could it........... ?
 
TheGardenTool said:
Nothing is the big deal to me. I don't think it is pathetic to stay up all night if you really want to preorder the phone, or anything else. I was merely answering the guys question with a statement that might relate more to him or others on this board.
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Yes I was agreeing with you, sorry for the confusion.
 
I don't think anyone can make an LTE worldphone that thin, with the specs it has and with the battery life it exhibits for "minimal R&D", particularly not with a casing that's as precisely-manufactured as they claim it to be.

The comment above regarding Apple simply assembling off-the-shelf components is laughable considering Apple does their own SoC, battery and display/touchscreen development. I guarantee you there's no other smartphone on the market that has as many unique, in-house-designed components as an iPhone (for better or for worse). That's not to say that these things make it the best phone on the market, but it's certainly not just some hodgepodge of off-the-shelf components just crudely thrown into a box.
 
wonderfield said:
I don't think anyone can make an LTE worldphone that thin, with the specs it has and with the battery life it exhibits for "minimal R&D", particularly not with a casing that's as precisely-manufactured as they claim it to be.

The comment above regarding Apple simply assembling off-the-shelf components is laughable considering Apple does their own SoC, battery and display/touchscreen development. I guarantee you there's no other smartphone on the market that has as many unique, in-house-designed components as an iPhone (for better or for worse). That's not to say that these things make it the best phone on the market, but it's certainly not just some hodgepodge of off-the-shelf components just crudely thrown into a box.
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silly nerd, don't you know that the [H] forum is slowly devolving into an Apple hate, love everything Microsoft circle-jerk? Don't be so unaware next time!
 
BBA said:
The cost estimate to make it is broken down HERE, as referred to by that article, and includes the sum of the parts cost plus the additional items such as assembly/packaging/etc...

http://www.ubmtechinsights.com/uplo.../iPhone_5_Teardown/iPhone5-BOM-comparison.JPG
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This is a bill of materials. It is a list of materials used in assembly of an iPhone 5. Nothing more. Here is a non-exhaustive list of what it does not include:

  1. Assembly costs - labor.
  2. Assembly costs - equipment.
  3. Packaging costs - labor.
  4. Shipping costs.
  5. Applicable import taxes/fees.
  6. Sales - labor. (Apple stores aren't free.)
  7. Technical support - labor.
  8. Patent royalties

Would you kindly point out any one of these items in the TechInsights Bill of Materials?

Those are just the per-unit costs. You also have to consider the sunk cost of any of these devices, including (again, non-exhaustive list):

  1. Software engineering.
  2. Electrical engineering.
  3. Mechanical engineering.
  4. Prototyping.
  5. QA/Testing.

BBA said:
I am also sure the R&D was minimal, since all of the parts almost directly copy other phones that already has the same components equiped (Samsung and Apple phones included). In fact, the only non-cosmetic parts design the I5 uses that is not already used in some other phones is the Apple A6 processor, since it is the first phone CPU apple itself actually had a part in specifying the design of.
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Can you name even one other phone that has an 1136x640 screen? Not only is this a new piece of hardware they likely had to work closely with the display manufacturer to prototype, but iOS and all the first-party apps had to be optimized for the new format.

Can you name a single phone with the new, proprietary Lightning connector, other than the iPhone 5?

I'm going to hand you an iPhone 4S and one of the new LTE radio ICs. I'm going to be generous and assume you have perfect soldering skills. Can you make the iPhone 4 operate at 4G speeds? Should be minimal effort, right?

To say Apple "had a part in specifying the design of" the A6 is quite an understatement. Do you think Apple paid $278 million for P. A. Semi so they could write specification documents for them?

You don't have to take my word on it. Apple disclosed the numbers as part of their ongoing litigation with Samsung:

Apple Inc earned gross margins of 49 to 58 percent on its U.S. iPhone sales between April 2010 and the end of March 2012, while gross margins on the iPad were much lower during much of that period, according to a court filing.
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Using the iPhone 4S (which wasn't even available until towards the end of 2011, 20/25 months into the filing period), which TechInsights estimates at $131 per unit, and using its off-contract price of $649, that gives you a margin of almost exactly 80%. When you consider that the original iPhone 4 (which was the top-tier model for the bulk of the filing period) cost less, and that margins on the higher tier (32 and 64 GB) devices are only going to be higher, you're approaching 85-90%.

If you're so sure of yourself, if you're absolutely sure you're right and everyone else is wrong, then I'd advise you to buy a bunch of Apple stock. Get a stake in the company and then start a class-action lawsuit on behalf of Apple shareholders, because Apple just lied through their teeth to their shareholders and to the U.S. District Court, Northern District of California. You'll be rich - if you're right.
 
Its a custom Apple core. They have gone the way of Qualcomm. They no longer use off the shelf cores if Anandtech is to believed.

Its actually rather exciting, Apple is now a core hardware company. Probably scares Intel.
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
This is a bill of materials. It is a list of materials used in assembly of an iPhone 5. Nothing more. Here is a non-exhaustive list of what it does not include:

  1. Assembly costs - labor.
  2. Assembly costs - equipment.
  3. Packaging costs - labor.
  4. Shipping costs.
  5. Applicable import taxes/fees.
  6. Sales - labor. (Apple stores aren't free.)
  7. Technical support - labor.
  8. Patent royalties

Would you kindly point out any one of these items in the TechInsights Bill of Materials?

Those are just the per-unit costs. You also have to consider the sunk cost of any of these devices, including (again, non-exhaustive list):

  1. Software engineering.
  2. Electrical engineering.
  3. Mechanical engineering.
  4. Prototyping.
  5. QA/Testing.

Can you name even one other phone that has an 1136x640 screen? Not only is this a new piece of hardware they likely had to work closely with the display manufacturer to prototype, but iOS and all the first-party apps had to be optimized for the new format.

Can you name a single phone with the new, proprietary Lightning connector, other than the iPhone 5?

I'm going to hand you an iPhone 4S and one of the new LTE radio ICs. I'm going to be generous and assume you have perfect soldering skills. Can you make the iPhone 4 operate at 4G speeds? Should be minimal effort, right?

To say Apple "had a part in specifying the design of" the A6 is quite an understatement. Do you think Apple paid $278 million for P. A. Semi so they could write specification documents for them?

You don't have to take my word on it. Apple disclosed the numbers as part of their ongoing litigation with Samsung:



Using the iPhone 4S (which wasn't even available until towards the end of 2011, 20/25 months into the filing period), which TechInsights estimates at $131 per unit, and using its off-contract price of $649, that gives you a margin of almost exactly 80%. When you consider that the original iPhone 4 (which was the top-tier model for the bulk of the filing period) cost less, and that margins on the higher tier (32 and 64 GB) devices are only going to be higher, you're approaching 85-90%.

If you're so sure of yourself, if you're absolutely sure you're right and everyone else is wrong, then I'd advise you to buy a bunch of Apple stock. Get a stake in the company and then start a class-action lawsuit on behalf of Apple shareholders, because Apple just lied through their teeth to their shareholders and to the U.S. District Court, Northern District of California. You'll be rich - if you're right.
Click to expand...

No but I know a phone that has an even higher resolution.

samsung_v_iphone_640.jpg
 
Cali3350 said:
Its a custom Apple core. They have gone the way of Qualcomm. They no longer use off the shelf cores if Anandtech is to believed.

Its actually rather exciting, Apple is now a core hardware company. Probably scares Intel.
Click to expand...

Which is impressive, beating all android phones and even some android tablets. Bravo to the Apple team and their R&D.
 
damicatz said:
No but I know a phone that has an even higher resolution.
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Please read my post again. I never claimed that having the only 1136x640 screen made it a good screen or a good phone. I was merely trying to make a point about how it was hardly an off-the-shelf part. Such insane pixel density, yet they can't even hit 720P? I thought the 90s was when I'd stopped seeing '640' in my display resolutions.

Did you really need to quote the whole post to make that one little non sequitur?

refraxion said:
Which is impressive, beating all android phones and even some android tablets. Bravo to the Apple team and their R&D.
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If they could hear you, they'd say "Thanks, it was minimal."
 
I think the iPhone would do a lot better if it wasn't for all the over-priced plans.

I paid $199 for a Virgin Mobil LG Smartphone and I get 300 minutes (far more than I need), unlimited Text and Unlimited 3G for $25 a month. THAT is a phone that fits my needs at a cost I can afford. They have 4G phones for $299 and the plan is $35 per month.

They have the iPhone now too, but I can buy a used car cheaper than what they are charging for the phone.
 
TechLarry said:
I think the iPhone would do a lot better if it wasn't for all the over-priced plans.
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Yeah, the situation with the major carriers has gotten out of control. People seem happy enough to pay the $100/month+ needed to get a plan with decent amount of data, though.
 
TechLarry said:
I think the iPhone would do a lot better if it wasn't for all the over-priced plans.

I paid $199 for a Virgin Mobil LG Smartphone and I get 300 minutes (far more than I need), unlimited Text and Unlimited 3G for $25 a month. THAT is a phone that fits my needs at a cost I can afford. They have 4G phones for $299 and the plan is $35 per month.

They have the iPhone now too, but I can buy a used car cheaper than what they are charging for the phone.
Click to expand...

It's not the iPhone. Every LTE data plan comes with a bottle of lube, regardless of the phone's make/OS. It's just that expensive.

Verizon charges you $40/month just for the privilege of buying service from them. Then once your foot is in the door, you actually have to buy a plan from them, which starts at another $60/month for a measly 2GB. That's right, $100/month for the lowest plan. And people bitched 5 years ago when the original iPhone cost a then-unheard-of $60/month!! :eek: Oh how times quickly changed. Also it's amazing how these new shared plans from providers, which were supposed to help lower prices, never seem to actually work out in the customer's favor...
 
Cali3350 said:
Its a custom Apple core. They have gone the way of Qualcomm. They no longer use off the shelf cores if Anandtech is to believed.

Its actually rather exciting, Apple is now a core hardware company. Probably scares Intel.
Click to expand...

Apple doesn't design shit in the silicon arena. Anybody who thinks you can design silicon at that complexity with a handful of people is not very well versed on the industry. Also, custom silicon is not "rare", it is a function of scale. Where I used ot work we had a custom die from Microchip because we bught a bazillion of them per year. It saved us money and it made them money. What Apple is good at is figuring out what features might best work on the main die to eliminate support HW. They have economy of scale on their side so they can easily afford (e.g. demand) to have their own "special chip".
 
InorganicMatter said:
It's not the iPhone. Every LTE data plan comes with a bottle of lube, regardless of the phone's make/OS. It's just that expensive. And people bitched 5 years ago when the original iPhone cost a then-unheard-of $60/month!!
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It's interesting to me how increased competition in the mobile space has served only to increase prices. Collusion, anyone?
 
what are half of those features? I never heard of them and some sound downright annoying
 
InorganicMatter said:
It's not the iPhone. Every LTE data plan comes with a bottle of lube, regardless of the phone's make/OS. It's just that expensive.

Verizon charges you $40/month just for the privilege of buying service from them. Then once your foot is in the door, you actually have to buy a plan from them, which starts at another $60/month for a measly 2GB. That's right, $100/month for the lowest plan. And people bitched 5 years ago when the original iPhone cost a then-unheard-of $60/month!! :eek: Oh how times quickly changed. Also it's amazing how these new shared plans from providers, which were supposed to help lower prices, never seem to actually work out in the customer's favor...
Click to expand...

Yeah If I had to go shared, my cost would go up $30.... :mad:
 
schizrade said:
Yeah If I had to go shared, my cost would go up $30.... :mad:
Click to expand...

LOL...I could not stomach the rip off plans. I just bought a phone outright and went contract less. The funny thing in all this argument...I bought a cheap android phone while waiting for the new WIndows phone, the one I really want.

Mind you, my unlimited (5GB of 4G) data, unlimited text and 100Min talk plan costs a total of...$30/mo. (That's it, $30 TOTAL, no taxes and fees to pay extra either). The 4G seems to cover just about anywhere I go as well (and it is T-Mobile's plan).

I have yet to go over the minutes but I did put an additional $30 on the plan just to cover if I do go over the 100 minutes, so I effectively have 400 minutes, 300 of which roll until I use them.
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
This is a bill of materials. It is a list of materials used in assembly of an iPhone 5. Nothing more. Here is a non-exhaustive list of what it does not include:

  1. Assembly costs - labor.
  2. Assembly costs - equipment.
  3. Packaging costs - labor.
  4. Shipping costs.
  5. Applicable import taxes/fees.
  6. Sales - labor. (Apple stores aren't free.)
  7. Technical support - labor.
  8. Patent royalties

Would you kindly point out any one of these items in the TechInsights Bill of Materials?

Those are just the per-unit costs. You also have to consider the sunk cost of any of these devices, including (again, non-exhaustive list):

  1. Software engineering.
  2. Electrical engineering.
  3. Mechanical engineering.
  4. Prototyping.
  5. QA/Testing.

Can you name even one other phone that has an 1136x640 screen? Not only is this a new piece of hardware they likely had to work closely with the display manufacturer to prototype, but iOS and all the first-party apps had to be optimized for the new format.

Can you name a single phone with the new, proprietary Lightning connector, other than the iPhone 5?

I'm going to hand you an iPhone 4S and one of the new LTE radio ICs. I'm going to be generous and assume you have perfect soldering skills. Can you make the iPhone 4 operate at 4G speeds? Should be minimal effort, right?

To say Apple "had a part in specifying the design of" the A6 is quite an understatement. Do you think Apple paid $278 million for P. A. Semi so they could write specification documents for them?

You don't have to take my word on it. Apple disclosed the numbers as part of their ongoing litigation with Samsung:



Using the iPhone 4S (which wasn't even available until towards the end of 2011, 20/25 months into the filing period), which TechInsights estimates at $131 per unit, and using its off-contract price of $649, that gives you a margin of almost exactly 80%. When you consider that the original iPhone 4 (which was the top-tier model for the bulk of the filing period) cost less, and that margins on the higher tier (32 and 64 GB) devices are only going to be higher, you're approaching 85-90%.

If you're so sure of yourself, if you're absolutely sure you're right and everyone else is wrong, then I'd advise you to buy a bunch of Apple stock. Get a stake in the company and then start a class-action lawsuit on behalf of Apple shareholders, because Apple just lied through their teeth to their shareholders and to the U.S. District Court, Northern District of California. You'll be rich - if you're right.
Click to expand...

I knew you couldn't let by-gone's be by-gone's, not in the apple defenders of [H] nature. Yes, the 'otherp costs per phone category covers all of that shit you mention.

You lost, iPhone5 officially sucks compared to Samsung S3 and that's the answer.
 
BBA said:
I knew you couldn't let by-gone's be by-gone's, not in the apple defenders of [H] nature. Yes, the 'otherp costs per phone category covers all of that shit you mention.
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No, it does not. If it did, the definition of 'bill of materials' would be different. If it did, then the DigitalInisghts numbers would be right in line with Apple's margins.

The DigitalInisghts BOM estimate for the iPhone 4S is $132.50, from the chart you linked earlier. iSuppli, another research firm, estimates it at $188, or $196 after the cost to assemble/manufacture. The price is something like $55 more, shows the assembly cost as separate from the bill of materials, and has no catch-all "other" sections. It also includes this disclaimer:

Please note that these teardown assessments are preliminary in nature, and account only for hardware costs and do not include other expenses such as software, licensing, royalties or other expenditures.
Click to expand...

I feel it's also relevant to point out that if you take iSuppli's BOM+Manufacturing number, and divide it by the off contract price, you still get a gross margin of 70%, which is well above the 50%-60% margins claimed by Apple in court filings.

I've produced a mountain of evidence that the very definition of a Bill of Materials not include any of the things you claim it does, that other market research firms which arrive at similar numbers explicitly state that those things are not included, and that even if they did include those things, the numbers don't even remotely add up to Apple's court filings. What evidence have you submitted, besides the initial link to the TechInsights article? Your argument for the past several posts has basically been "Yes it does, the article says so." when anyone with rudimentary reading comprehension skills can see that the article makes no such explicit claim. Inferring that claim from what is said is an understandable mistake, but I think by now it's clear it's the wrong inference to make.

BBA said:
You lost, iPhone5 officially sucks compared to Samsung S3 and that's the answer.
Click to expand...
You haven't been paying attention. I never claimed that the iPhone was superior to, inferior to, or equal to any other phone. My sole issue has been with your gross misrepresentation of the thought and effort that Apple puts into the iPhone, which any rational, informed technology enthusiast, even if they are not a fan of the result, has to grudgingly acknowledge. Or would you rather go back to the pre-Apple days of Windows Mobile 6?

I've never owned an iPhone. I've been an Android user since the G1. I did own an iPod Touch two years ago, but I sold it once I found a music app that had a less terrible interface than the stock app and once large microSDs became more affordable. But there are still times I wish that the interface was as slick and responsive as my old iPod.

And that's really the heart of the issue right there. Barring a few notable missteps, when Apple sets out to do something they generally do it very well.

But don't let that stop you from touting your subjective opinion as objective fact. Hey - isn't that the same thing iPhone fanboys do?
 
seems like the article was written just for the ''i told you so'' factor...
 
I don't think the author is saying that apple as a company is in decline. It seems to me that it's more about the hype they are creating around the iphone 5, when there are few new features. I think apple has "jumped the shark" with the iphone 5. They are claiming how great it is and it feels forced. I wonder how happy their engineers and idea people are with the finished product. It's not even close to as innovative as past iphones.
 
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