IP Cameras?

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vraa

Gawd
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
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598
I'm thinking about getting video monitoring installed in our restaurants.

I have a vendor that wants to do it for about 100$/store per month. That's equipment, warranty and installation.

I feel that paying a few thousand a month is too much money for that kind of deal so I'm thinking about doing something myself.

I figure I need to monitor the following things.
4 cameras per location
The screen on the register itself (windows based).
The receipts printer.

This is what I think I can do -- the 4 cameras will be network cameras and I can access them from a remote location through a router --> Just use port forwarding. That doesn't seem too complex, but I have no idea what kind of hardware I'll need as far as cameras go, does any know who makes networkable video cameras?

The register it self I think I can use VNC if I need to, or some kind of screen-recording program. I bet I can find that myself but if anyone has experience with a product already, let me know.

Now this is a more tough problem. Currently the receipts printer is installed as a printer driver. I was thinking if there was a way to intercept that and not only print to the receipt printer, but also as a pdf or something so I could just ftp the receipts of the store of the day to a folder in a remote location. Does anyone know how to set up a "faux printer" that'll print to 2 source?

This should be a fun summer project.
 
For the camera part there are IP cams out there that support Power over Ethernet so they will run on a single cat5 cable. You only need to buy the power adapters for the ports.

For recording screens get a vid card that has TV out (which is now days all of them) and let XP mirror the screens. Hook up the TV out to a VCR or another comp with TV card that records them (You can use the very comp you are recording too). Not the most elegant way but works.
 
I have a buddy that does this service for people...has security cameras setup at various locations...some networks as much as a dozen cameras.

Intellinet cameras, and the software he uses to record from his office is Go1984
http://www.go1984.com/
 
I am doing the same at home.

I have 1 server that I use as a FTP, webserver etc.

1 IP cam (plans for 5 total)

1 IP over power cables (just put it near a plug socket)

The server acts as a store for 24 hour footage.

If they take the server (it is heavy so I doubt they could) the IP cam still emails me any motion detected in stills and video

I have full pan / tilt control and it can be viewed over the net at any time. Problems are that real time is only 5 fps, to view more than 3 cams at once you will need a decent upload speed. motion detection can get a bit confused by sudden change of light.

ae_1.JPG
 
Malk-a-mite said:
Does the fact that the software is called "go1984" worry anyone else?
Click to expand...

Yeah I dunno where the name came from....I believe it's a German software company. It's awesome software though...I setup his office behind an IPCop router, core 2 duo box with 2 gigs of RAM and a terra of hard drive space. Big screen monitor....he keeps that software running and fills his screen with like 50 cameras so far from his clients..and growing fast soon as he hooks up a few more mini malls 'n a country club.

You can easily click on a location..then select 1x camera to bring up top screen...zoom around, etc.
 
vraa said:
I'm thinking about getting video monitoring installed in our restaurants.

I have a vendor that wants to do it for about 100$/store per month. That's equipment, warranty and installation.

I feel that paying a few thousand a month is too much money for that kind of deal so I'm thinking about doing something myself.

I figure I need to monitor the following things.
4 cameras per location
The screen on the register itself (windows based).
The receipts printer.

This is what I think I can do -- the 4 cameras will be network cameras and I can access them from a remote location through a router --> Just use port forwarding. That doesn't seem too complex, but I have no idea what kind of hardware I'll need as far as cameras go, does any know who makes networkable video cameras?

The register it self I think I can use VNC if I need to, or some kind of screen-recording program. I bet I can find that myself but if anyone has experience with a product already, let me know.

Now this is a more tough problem. Currently the receipts printer is installed as a printer driver. I was thinking if there was a way to intercept that and not only print to the receipt printer, but also as a pdf or something so I could just ftp the receipts of the store of the day to a folder in a remote location. Does anyone know how to set up a "faux printer" that'll print to 2 source?

This should be a fun summer project.
Click to expand...

A Couple questions.

1) Are you project oriented or are you looking for the best solution?
2) Assuming the latter, is there any sort of budget per store?
3) What sort of printers are you using? How do they connect? And/Or is there any sort of data collection via serial port available in your POS software?
 
I would rather do this myself. We have an approved vendor (only guy we can use if we decide to NOT do it ourselves). :(

He wants 100$ / store / month. That turns out to be more than 5000$/month total :eek: :(

For that kind of money --- Yeah....

I'm trying to keep everything so it'll pay for itself within half a year or so.

I have a central office where I want to be able to manage everything. Basically I want to say "Hey, I wonder what happened on April 1st in Store #43" and without moving from the office (my desk) I load up the videos for that day.

The receipts isn't a big deal since I'm getting the receipts of the day mailed to me anyways -- but it'd be nice if it were really simple. I could setup an ftp server on each register (they run WinXP) and just setup a cron job to pull it off there every night. I just have to figure out a way to print to PDF AND STILL print to the receipt printer. The current software only links to the reciept printer driver. :(

Thanks guys for the help, I'm looking into it all -- I hope to have at least 10 stores as a test deployed by the beginning of the summer. It's just so confusing because so few companies say EVERYTHING that their products can do. :(
 
1c3d0g said:
Don't like the name, but has exactly what you're looking for (I think).

http://www.axis.com/
Click to expand...

I'm in charge of revamping our CCTV system (20 or so cameras) on campus and I've been looking at Axis extensively... seems like they have some really nice products.

I just gave go1984 a try just now and I'm not digging the wannabe OS X theme.
 
versello said:
I just gave go1984 a try just now and I'm not digging the wannabe OS X theme.
Click to expand...

I agree, the OSX look has got to go, but the product DOES seem slick though. I haven't found too many IP Cam proggy's that have THAT extensive of IP Cam compatibilities. Almost all will support the major players, Sony, Axis, Canon, Panasonic, etc. But it's hard to find an IP cam proggy that will support the oddballs chep cams as well. And yes, occasionally there IS a use for a cheap cam.
 
vraa said:
I would rather do this myself. We have an approved vendor (only guy we can use if we decide to NOT do it ourselves). :(

He wants 100$ / store / month. That turns out to be more than 5000$/month total :eek: :(

For that kind of money --- Yeah....

I'm trying to keep everything so it'll pay for itself within half a year or so.

I have a central office where I want to be able to manage everything. Basically I want to say "Hey, I wonder what happened on April 1st in Store #43" and without moving from the office (my desk) I load up the videos for that day.

The receipts isn't a big deal since I'm getting the receipts of the day mailed to me anyways -- but it'd be nice if it were really simple. I could setup an ftp server on each register (they run WinXP) and just setup a cron job to pull it off there every night. I just have to figure out a way to print to PDF AND STILL print to the receipt printer. The current software only links to the reciept printer driver. :(

Thanks guys for the help, I'm looking into it all -- I hope to have at least 10 stores as a test deployed by the beginning of the summer. It's just so confusing because so few companies say EVERYTHING that their products can do. :(
Click to expand...

If all you want is networked access to the cams, a conventional DVR at each location with network support and a few basic minidome cams may be a viable alternative to IP Cams.

The problem with IP cams, especially if you are talking about having so MANY locations is to decide where the historical footage will be recorded. At each separate location? Then you are talking about a license of whatever cam software that has remote viewing for the site + PC to record to + the cams + Cat5 wiring + Power/POE switch.

Or you can record everything to the main office, where bandwidth issues MAY come into play. 50 ( 5000 per month / $100month = 50, right?) locations times 4 cams each= 200 cams. That's a fair piece of bandwidth. What frame rate do you want to record at? That potentially could increase the bandwidth even more. And Last, what if the internet connection goes down at that site?

There are more than a few Conventional cam DVR's that will take a serial input(either directly from printer communication or a dedicated dataport) and overlay that IN A SEARCHABLE format with that cam's view. That's a posibility. For a co-ax cam system, you'd need a DVR, Cams, 12vdc/24vac (depending on the power req of the cams) power supply, co-ax/power cable (they make siamesedcable if you want), and BNC ends). Anyone with basic electrical knowledge can do this.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of IP cams (I have 3 in my house), but I'm just not seeing that as the best solution for your project.
 
i know AXIS makes a ton of IP cams

they might be a good place to look if you are still going in that direction
 
Nate7311 said:
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of IP cams (I have 3 in my house), but I'm just not seeing that as the best solution for your project.
Click to expand...
You have sparked my curiosity, what would you suggest?
 
I have installed AXIS cameras and setup a couplke of their servers. It's pretty nice stuff if you can afford it.
 
SVT4ME said:
I have installed AXIS cameras and setup a couplke of their servers. It's pretty nice stuff if you can afford it.
Click to expand...

SVT, I have a few questions if you don't mind about AXIS' set up. I mentioned in a previous post that I'm looking at AXIS as a solution to my environment. I sent you a PM as I didn't want to hijack the op's thread, but I can post it here as well.
 
vraa said:
You have sparked my curiosity, what would you suggest?
Click to expand...



Well... You've already stated 4 cams per locations... So let's start with a 4 ch DVR.

Normally for this kind of functionality, I prefer to use ImageVault Pro's (4ch for your application), but those might be kinda pricey($1800+) for your budget. but there are numerous other DVR's out there with a POS interface. If the POS Interface interests you, we need to know 2 things, 1 how your printers are connected to the POS device and if that's not via a serial connection, then does your POS device have a serial data output available? If both of these are no, then just let go of the POS idea right now and spend what you'd save in not going the POS route on a larger storage capacity. It never fails, 3 days after the DVR has began to recycle its storage, your boss will ask you for footage of a "supposed" slip-and-fall for legal or insurance reasons. It's murphy's law ;).

My reccomendation for a DVR w/ POS interface for you: Dedicated Micros D4A4RSCD80GB. $1300-1600 Google/Froogle it ;). W/O POS interface? Arm Electronics RDVR4A160G (ethernet / USB flash drive) $675+ Most DVR's you will find anymore have an ethernet Interface. Again Google/Froogle. Or I have a few surveillance vendors I can send to you that are very knowledgeable.

Next we have cable: Either basic RG-59 and a 18/2 stranded separate or that combination is available in a siameesed type where the RG-59 and 2 strands of 18ga wire are all molded together. Budget $200MAX for 1000' (I know this is high, but I bet you'd be able to do 4-5 stores with a 1000' spool).

Cameras: This is the trickiest part. What are you looking to do? Just some 6" round minidomes on the ceiling? A big obvious camera on a mount on the wall? Interior lit views? Outside views of Day/Night? If it's all just minidomes of inside well lit areas, you can get away with something as simple as (like Arm's products. cheap and reliable) an Arm C420Md (C420MDBLK is the black model). Again, Google/Froogle ~$60+

Only 3 parts left, Power supply for the cams Watch that you get the right supply for the cams. Some cams are 12vdc and some are 24vac, and some can do both. 24vac tends to work better for longer (200'+) runs, as well. a 4ch 12vdc unit can be hand for under $100 MAX

Monitor: Any BNC connection monitor will do... $150-$200

Last part is BNC crimp/twist on ends. Can be had for $0.30-$1 ea. Probably require 8 (1 for end end of each run) for each loc.

Total Location costs with my estimates ( AFTER YOU DO MORE RESEARCH YOURS WILL DIFFER DUE TO YOUR SITUATION)

DVR ~$750 or ~$1500 w/ POS Inferface
CABLE ~$50 (1/4 spool)
CAMS ~$300 (4 @ $75 average)
CAM PSU ~$75
MONITOR ~$175
BNC ENDS ~$3

Totals w/o POS: $2258/location ROI vs. $5000 ( 50Locations/$100month) ip cam monitoring = 23months
Totals w/ POS: $3008/location ROI vs. $5000 ( 50Locations/$100month) ip cam monitoring = 31months


Not exactly cheap mind you, but compared to increasing bandwidth costs both at the store's level to compensate for the Cam feeds and the increased bandwidth needs at the office level to accomodate 50 stores worth of cam feeds PER MONTH. Then you have to deal with the potential for internet lines ( and therefore surv. feeds) being down. Or adding the cost of IP Cams + Local PC + Monitor for PC + IP Cam Software.

I bet you it comes out fairly close anyway you cut it. This is NOT going to be a cheap product.

Ok now my hands are tired. Hope this helps, let me know if it you have any more Q's.
 
Thanks Nate7311, that is some really good information. I am currently looking to expand a 4-channel cheap-o DVR system. We want to bump it to 7 or 8 camera setup, possibly with PTZ capability on a couple cams.. The RG-59 siamese cable is already installed so I am looking for a good quality DVR that can be upgraded by me with extra drives and has a solid interface and search functions. Can you provide that list of vendors?
 
Sure.

As far as brands go, I've have a mix of Basic ARM DVR's in my smaller stores and ImageVault 16ch and Vicon-CCTV units in my larger stores. You'll find that most DVR's will have PTZ controls available to them, but a few of the top companies liek Vicon have a completely proprietary system. It's slick, but not much compatibility with anything outside of THEIR PTZ Cams or basic cams. Going forward, I think I'm going to stick with ImageVault's DVRs. The only problem I have with them is that they are somewhat limited on FPS compared to the rest of the market.

Side note for those that want a Basic POS integration or just text from ATM, Access control system, etc overlayed on the cams. "Text-inserter" boxes exist that take any serial input in a variety of formats and overlay that ontop of the cam input and then into the DVR. New they are expensive, but you can find older units all over the place if you start looking.

I've dealt with "Surveillance Systems Integration" ALOT lately. So far they've demolished the lowest internet pricing on everything I could find...
At SSI, if you want the contact please PM/Email me. I'm not fond of releasing info out on forums like this w/o vendor's knowledge.
 
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