Invisibility has ruined games for me

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Bare with me I need to rant, and was hoping I could find some people who relate. The concept of invisibility has ruined any game that has it for me.

Words can not express how much I fucking hate this shit. When you play as a rogue in world of warcraft compared to any other character it really feels like you're cheating. You can move around areas in a way that nobody else can, you can destroy a shaman in seconds no matter what his/her gear is (well back in the day, don't play anymore because of rogues), it's great unless you're one of the classes that isn't a rogue.

When you play any rts for the most part that has it the whole game gets turned into not an army vs army but some bullshit about countering invisibility or trying to sneak into someones base.

The old gauntlet games were ruined because of the invisible levels you had to somehow navigate through.

Above all it's just flat out lazy game design, so many different gameplay concepts could be explored yet this shit keeps getting put into game after game. Nothing is fun about not seeing your enemy.

I wish this was as hated as the pay to win model so it could attract more attention.
 

daemonmf

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If done right, it's about risk vs reward. I can understand if it's an aspect that you don't particularly appreciate, but it's not inherently lazy.

I tend to appreciate the dynamic that it adds when done right.
 

theNoid

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I never had any issue with opponents being invisible, usually there are in game counters to their strengths etc.. On a long list of things that could "ruin" gaming, invisibility is invisible lol
 
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If done right, it's about risk vs reward. I can understand if it's an aspect that you don't particularly appreciate, but it's not inherently lazy.

I tend to appreciate the dynamic that it adds when done right.

please tell me a game where it's done right. It's cheap and usually trumps everything else for the most part. Everything about it is lazy, that's why it's in so many games, because it's so damn easy.

The people that appreciate it are the people who play rogues, snipers, love the game thief, and hate games like quake. Your sole goal in life is to find the easy way out of everything, instead of facing a challenge head on.
 

djsb

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please tell me a game where it's done right. It's cheap and usually trumps everything else for the most part. Everything about it is lazy, that's why it's in so many games, because it's so damn easy.

The people that appreciate it are the people who play rogues, snipers, love the game thief, and hate games like quake. Your sole goal in life is to find the easy way out of everything, instead of facing a challenge head on.

Quake? You mean that game with the invisibility pickup?

And playing Thief... is not the easy way out of anything. Period. ;)
 

Zohar78

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please tell me a game where it's done right. It's cheap and usually trumps everything else for the most part. Everything about it is lazy, that's why it's in so many games, because it's so damn easy.

The people that appreciate it are the people who play rogues, snipers, love the game thief, and hate games like quake. Your sole goal in life is to find the easy way out of everything, instead of facing a challenge head on.

the original halo and halo 2 had it as close to right by making it a pickup and only lasting a set time..

In wow, rogues issue is not so much stealth, but all their abilities combined with stealth. Feral cats have stealth and arent quite as aggravating as rogues. Also wow is notorious for its op classes and counter classes. Some classes do better against all, some do better against certain ones.
 
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Quake? You mean that game with the invisibility pickup?

And playing Thief... is not the easy way out of anything. Period. ;)

never played quake 1 that much if that has it, just 2 and 3. But was referring to multiplayer, should have clarified that. I know that's not in either of those.
 

Direfox

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Rock/paper/scissors. I remember destroying rogues with my shadow priest. They didn't stand a chance. Lots of balancing both ways since then I'm sure, but invisibility was not "easy mode" in WoW and most of the games I played. I loved being able to creep around areas with high powered enemies I could avoid. But I also like being able to walk in there with a paladin and just completely nuke the place too. Every class has been in some way overpowered, and every class has had lots crap too. Occasionally at the same time.
 
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the original halo and halo 2 had it as close to right by making it a pickup and only lasting a set time..

In wow, rogues issue is not so much stealth, but all their abilities combined with stealth. Feral cats have stealth and arent quite as aggravating as rogues. Also wow is notorious for its op classes and counter classes. Some classes do better against all, some do better against certain ones.


I get that wow's balance is out of whack all around but still if you're a person that isn't playing one of the invisibility classes, doesn't that annoy the fuck out of you? Going along minding your own business and someone comes along and gets the jump on you just because of a game mechanic that you don't have.

I wouldn't have an issue with it if it wasn't in every other multiplayer game. Not lazy... really think about how many games have it in them.
 

Climber

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So basically WoW ruined games for you? That is pretty much what I took from your post.
 
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So basically WoW ruined games for you? That is pretty much what I took from your post.

Actually rts's are the larger concern for me, but how that was all that you got from my post is not something I can explain. I'm not your brain, but to clarify I hate invisibility and all games that have it, which seems to be the majority of non sports/fighting games.
 

Trimlock

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EQ did it great. Certain mobs you couldn't get past, it randomly would drop and you had to account for undead mixed with live targets, or live targets mixed in with undead.

Rogues sneak was great as if you went in front of anyone (later cheapened by AA) you were caught, again certain mobs could see sneak etc.

In EQ Invs was not something that removed you from risk, if anything it added a bit of adrenalin.
 

Climber

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Actually rts's are the larger concern for me, but how that was all that you got from my post is not something I can explain. I'm not your brain, but to clarify I hate invisibility and all games that have it, which seems to be the majority of non sports/fighting games.

What rts do this? You mentioned wow several times but mentioned rts briefly in passing.
 
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What rts do this? You mentioned wow several times but mentioned rts briefly in passing.

umm pretty much all of them, I think a better question would be which ones don't. In fact I would love to know about a base building rts that doesn't have this. Maybe the historical ones I guess, never played any of those.
 

Climber

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Age of empires, age of mythology, company of heroes and several others I play don't use invisibility. Don't remeber it being a big deal in warhammer, warcraft or starcraft either.
 

Trimlock

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Oh starcraft does have invisibility, but unless you are one of those extreme players, its not really a factor (Ghosts and Air units).
 
D

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So basically you can't handle a certain strategy and are mad about it. You do know there is a reason for those units in games, right? It's called combined arms and using strategy rather than brute force, aka "army vs army".
 
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So basically you can't handle a certain strategy and are mad about it. You do know there is a reason for those units in games, right? It's called combined arms and using strategy rather than brute force, aka "army vs army".

So basically you are saying strategy can't exist without invisibility and you're mad about my post about it. You do know there is a reason it's in every other game, right? It's called being lazy and using a mechanic that's been done again and again without any real concern for balance.

Wtf is fun about being on the opposing end of getting owned by something you can't see in games which are entirely visual based. Nothing about it makes any sense.
 
D

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If you get owned by invisible units, you just suck at said game. Company of Heroes has snipers, which are invisible until they shoot or you get close enough/use a detection unit. They are very effective if used right, but it requires skill on both ends to use and to counter them. Same thing in Starcraft, ghosts and DT's are used in a strategy, but once you get the counter they are pretty useless.

Really, they are just like any other unit in that there is a counter to them and if you don't counter them correctly you are fucked. Just like archers are usually demolished by cavalry in medieval RTS games, and if you don't counter them you get destroyed.

You really do just sound butthurt for no reason, you can use your own argument for pretty much any unit.
 
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If you get owned by invisible units, you just suck at said game. Company of Heroes has snipers, which are invisible until they shoot or you get close enough/use a detection unit. They are very effective if used right, but it requires skill on both ends to use and to counter them. Same thing in Starcraft, ghosts and DT's are used in a strategy, but once you get the counter they are pretty useless.

Really, they are just like any other unit in that there is a counter to them and if you don't counter them correctly you are fucked. Just like archers are usually demolished by cavalry in medieval RTS games, and if you don't counter them you get destroyed.

You really do just sound butthurt for no reason, you can use your own argument for pretty much any unit.

finally someone with a real argument. Now let me tell you why you're wrong.

It is NOT like any other unit. Every other unit you can see coming, that's a huge difference! It's fun trying to move certain units forward because you want them to attack first. It's fun using your reflexes to out shoot someone else. Getting stabbed in the back from someone you couldn't see coming even if you turned around is not fun.

I'm not saying in every game it's op. Really the spy's in tf2 aren't op, but the point is the way the have to go about doing what they do is bullshit. Hide, get behind someone then instantly kill them without any counter from the other player.

Again games are all visual based, this shouldn't be a part of them let alone in damn near every game.

It points to a larger problem in society, people who are trying to always get ahead without any concern for the nobility of their actions, a society of people who say nobody's perfect and use that as an excuse to do bad things. I think I can sum it up by saying that if you play a rogue in wow you are what's wrong with this world.
 
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daemonmf

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please tell me a game where it's done right. It's cheap and usually trumps everything else for the most part. Everything about it is lazy, that's why it's in so many games, because it's so damn easy.

The people that appreciate it are the people who play rogues, snipers, love the game thief, and hate games like quake. Your sole goal in life is to find the easy way out of everything, instead of facing a challenge head on.

When it's done right and balanced, it creates a game where there can be many different viable ways to approach the game, or can be used to create tension or a sense of dread. Using a blanket statement that "all games with invisibility suxxors" is probably not the most effective way to vent your frustration.

  • As mentioned, Starcraft has invisibility and is used in a perfectly valid way since there are legit, balanced counters.
  • The game Rain on PSN uses invisibility to pretty great effect as part of its main mechanic.
  • STALKER has invisible enemies and I never thought they were cheap or lazy. They intensified an already pretty thrilling game for me. Also, I liked watching them suddenly materialize after I killed them.
  • I'm currently playing through Planescape: Torment and there is an element of invisibility in the game with thief characters that is a refreshing change to bashing things with my Axe or using my magic missiles.
  • Crysis had the cloaking which I very much enjoyed. It fit in with the story and it's use was limited giving it a bit of a strategic element.
There are plenty more examples and I'm not going to list them fully here. Checking out the Invisibility list on Giant Bomb shows a bunch of games and I'm pretty sure some of them are pretty OK, maybe even great.

For sure, there are plenty of tropes that can and have been used in poor, lazy game design and for sure sometimes invisibility is one (invisible walls...) but making blanket statements about things is also lazy.
 
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When it's done right and balanced, it creates a game where there can be many different viable ways to approach the game, or can be used to create tension or a sense of dread. Using a blanket statement that "all games with invisibility suxxors" is probably not the most effective way to vent your frustration.

  • As mentioned, Starcraft has invisibility and is used in a perfectly valid way since there are legit, balanced counters.
  • The game Rain on PSN uses invisibility to pretty great effect as part of its main mechanic.
  • STALKER has invisible enemies and I never thought they were cheap or lazy. They intensified an already pretty thrilling game for me. Also, I liked watching them suddenly materialize after I killed them.
  • I'm currently playing through Planescape: Torment and there is an element of invisibility in the game with thief characters that is a refreshing change to bashing things with my Axe or using my magic missiles.
  • Crysis had the cloaking which I very much enjoyed. It fit in with the story and it's use was limited giving it a bit of a strategic element.
There are plenty more examples and I'm not going to list them fully here. Checking out the Invisibility list on Giant Bomb shows a bunch of games and I'm pretty sure some of them are pretty OK, maybe even great.

For sure, there are plenty of tropes that can and have been used in poor, lazy game design and for sure sometimes invisibility is one (invisible walls...) but making blanket statements about things is also lazy.

It's not lazy I genuinely hate all people that take part in it, if it was socially acceptable to put them in ovens I would.


Seriously though nobody has a problem with this being in every non realism based multiplayer game practically.
 
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D

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You should stop playing competitive multiplayer games, seriously. You can't handle the fact that people will abuse certain parts of a game and are somehow trying to set a moral standard. Seriously, get away from games, do something else for a while and come back when you have calmed down.

Or, give those bullshit classes a try. I guarantee that if you play them long enough, you will realize they really aren't as OP as you say they are. It's like noob tubes in Call of Duty or Battlefield. They can seem really annoying, but if you actually use them, you realize they really aren't going to get you to first place.

Seriously though, I know how frustrating things like that can be in games. But in the end, people just play video games for fun and some technically ruin it for others, but we are all free to do as we please(except cheat, since that is generally agreed upon to be BS). Play some other games for a while or take a break. I always have much more fun in MP games after I take a break for a while.
 

RealityCrunch

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Regardless of how well balanced invisibility is in a game (even if it's less powerful than other aspects), it generally generates a lot of angst and this causes people to generally regard it as overpowered, even if it's not. People just don't like being snuck up upon, surprised and not being able to see the opponent. I'd hate to see developers remove it simply due to players unable to factor in invisibility and cope with it.
 

RCGodward

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It's not lazy I genuinely hate all people that take part in it, if it was socially acceptable to put them in ovens I would.


Seriously though nobody has a problem with this being in every non realism based multiplayer game practically.

Wow.

I don't like this. You can't say anything that I won't counter with "How can you like that?" and I don't want to hear it. I threaten genocide against people that play with this.

Dude, you need to calm down. It's pretty apparent that nobody has as much of a problem with this as you.
 

Climber

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Again you bring up WoW and fps not rts. In rts they are valid counters to stealth and it isn't a big deal.

In fps and WoW stealth was annoying but we easily countered if you worked as a team. Stealth is great for picking off the unskilled or stragglers. In DAoC shadowblades were hugely OP because they had a skill which could one shot most players and if a one shot occured they wouldn't drop from stealth so I can see you bitching about that but I don't think you are.

Every other game has a counter to stealth. If you're getting destroyed that much by stealth you need to rethink your tactics and strategy.
 

cortexodus

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It points to a larger problem in society, people who are trying to always get ahead without any concern for the nobility of their actions, a society of people who say nobody's perfect and use that as an excuse to do bad things. I think I can sum it up by saying that if you play a rogue in wow you are what's wrong with this world.

Are you literally comparing various perceptual notions of moral failures within society itself

-to-

a stealth unit mechanic in videogames...? :confused:

Jesus Tap Dancing Shizzle Screws... You need to stop playing video games. Today. That, or just move to a PvE server on WoW, as it's clear you've been ganked a few times too many and have developed a serious case of PTSD from it.

/thread
 

JustinCorrigible

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I don't know, I love watching from the shadows and then sneaking up behind my victims, so I guess invisibility just clicked with me. The more they whine and scream desperately about how I'm OP and unfair, the more power it gives me.
 

acerbic

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Quake? You mean that game with the invisibility pickup?

And playing Thief... is not the easy way out of anything. Period. ;)

Invisibility was disabled in competitive plays and non crappy servers. It was silly.

In Quake being able to hear the person was always vastly more important than being able to see them anyways. You could hear someone around a wall moving towards you, have a rocket impact them by spamming the right place, mental math where their next spawn would be, spawn kill them off the bat and be closing in on their next spawn... and you didn't have to see anything.

Situational awareness is huge in Quake, but there was more than one way to track people. You never had music and could always hear exactly where people were and where they were going (especially since all the good players were moving at mach 5 off strafe jumps to start with), any armor, weapon, or ammo pick up gives away where you are instantly to someone who's half awake, and it's easy to spam a rocket and just listen for the "hurfff" noise someone makes when they take damage.

Sure, you could turn invisible in Quake and that made you harder to land a direct hit on, but you weren't sneaking up on anybody who was worth playing.
 

Pez

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Dota 2 is a very competitive game. It has invisible heroes (or heroes with skills that make them invisible). They are rarely, if ever, used in pro matches because they are easily countered and rendered pretty useless. Skill and strategy counters invisibility.
 

NoOther

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finally someone with a real argument. Now let me tell you why you're wrong.

It is NOT like any other unit. Every other unit you can see coming, that's a huge difference! It's fun trying to move certain units forward because you want them to attack first. It's fun using your reflexes to out shoot someone else. Getting stabbed in the back from someone you couldn't see coming even if you turned around is not fun.

I'm not saying in every game it's op. Really the spy's in tf2 aren't op, but the point is the way the have to go about doing what they do is bullshit. Hide, get behind someone then instantly kill them without any counter from the other player.

Again games are all visual based, this shouldn't be a part of them let alone in damn near every game.

It points to a larger problem in society, people who are trying to always get ahead without any concern for the nobility of their actions, a society of people who say nobody's perfect and use that as an excuse to do bad things. I think I can sum it up by saying that if you play a rogue in wow you are what's wrong with this world.

I hear what you are saying, and here is where you are wrong. In real life invisibility is a major strategic goal. We have special forces that use a variety of methods of stealth to achieve an advantage. We have stealth bombers, stealth fighters, hell we have stealth battleships. Other nations also have stealth forces. It is a major strategic component to warfare. It isn't put into games because it is a lazy tactic, its put in there because its a real part of real strategy.

What you are talking about isn't really strategy at all. You are basing everything off what you can see. But almost all of strategy is designed around hiding your actions from your opponent and only letting them see what you want them to, regardless of whether you even have stealth/invisible units or not. Plus in many games, this is balanced well with detection units and abilities. I find it hilarious you mention rogue vs shaman in WOW, since when I used to play I owned rogues as a shaman using many of the counter abilities that shaman possessed.

It is all about knowing how to use what you have to counter your opponent, that is true strategy, not your lazy version of strategy. You just want to see whatever is there and then press the counter button to automatically counter it. That is extremely lazy and is no strategy at all.
 
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I don't know, I love watching from the shadows and then sneaking up behind my victims, so I guess invisibility just clicked with me. The more they whine and scream desperately about how I'm OP and unfair, the more power it gives me.

ding ding ding, and this is my point. This is the mentality of people that play invisible characters.

To the the guy above that's making shit up about shaman beating rogues, it's not impossible if the person is a complete moron, but any rogue with half a brain could kill any shaman always, usually with little effort, didn't matter what spec you had either.

Finally to the guy who said I'm lazy for desiring to have the ability to somehow spot my enemy, why is it lazy to desire someone to not be able to get the jump on you? If you want to hide fine, but don't make it IMPOSSIBLE for me to spot someone, unless I build a unit specifically to counter that one dynamic that you can't see coming.

Again this is in practically every non realism based game, and in my opinion it's a big reason why there's so many people stuck on consoles playing nothing but cod and madden.
 

chockomonkey

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Overall my opinion on stealth mechanics is that they are completely dumb in a multiplayer environment and they prohibit the creation of actual balance.
They only work well in single-player games.

In RTS i find them extremely annoying. But RTS with the whole "QUICK DO EVERYTHING!" attitude just turns me off anyway.

In games like WoW, I find it retarded. Ever try to do arena with a rogue? Yes it gives them the advantage against unaware targets. However, a rogue will get slaughtered if popped out of stealth. I've lost so many matches in the first second of the match because a warrior got a lucky shout which popped the rogue and then he's instantly dead.

In FPS it is 100% retarded. Unless it's Single-player FPS. I really enjoyed being the stealthy one in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

In League of Legends there are also stealth characters. If you're fighting one, that just means you need to buy the item to negate stealth. If you are the stealth guy, you pretty much have free reign until your opponents get their stealth-detecting items.
 

Shantarr.Dalrae

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Invisibility is a terrible mechanic in multiplayer games, I feel. It offers an advantage so grossly powerful that the counterbalance is a nightmare to deal with from a design perspective.

Invisibility in singleplayer games, when used properly, adds immerive experiences and does not affect the balance of a game.

I look forward to the day when 'stealth classes' use concealment as a form of mechanic, perhaps in a 'chameleon' style ala Morrowind, versus true invisibility.

Hell, it's even jumping genres, world of tanks has invisibility. TANKS, INVISIBLE TANKS! ha.
 

acerbic

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Again this is in practically every non realism based game, and in my opinion it's a big reason why there's so many people stuck on consoles playing nothing but cod and madden.

That's not why people game on consoles. People game on consoles for one of two main reasons.

1. Like the vast majority of people today they are buying laptops, not 90's era relics we call desktops. These aren't the best gaming platforms, and all too often the traits that make a laptop desirable compared to other laptops (battery life, slim form factor. light weight) make sure that it is a terrible gaming machine. So AAA gaming on their computer is right out.

2. Like the majority of computer users they find computers to be obnoxious at times. They don't like dealing with drivers, patches, buggy games, and the general hassle of PC usage. The negative sides of a PC make using one an utter deal breaker if another device could be used instead. These are also reasons why people prefer to use tablets now if at all possible.

The games have nothing to do with it, the problem is the platform. As long as PC gaming is attached at the hip to desktops it's going to have problems as those become a less and less desirable computing device. No game, price drop, or anything else is going to change the fact that the desktop is dieing off for VERY good reasons.

The threats to console gaming are set top devices like the Steam Box or even Apple TV if apple wants to go that route. Just as consoles were never a threat to PC gaming, laptops, smart phones, and tablets just turned the desktop into something that makes about as much sense for most people as a typewriter.
 

Rizen

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I've never had that hard of a time with invisibility.

I played a rogue in WoW and yes it was challenging for some classes to counter, but there were plenty of classes that it was nearly impossible to beat as a rogue as well. Part of the problem with WoW actually was people like you who would complain incessantly that things were unfair until the devs basically catered and gave every ability to every class and the game became a homogenized mess.

RTS and RPG games are more like chess, there are classes that have specific strengths and weaknesses, the point of the game is learning how to counter those tactics. If you are too lazy to theorycraft or strategize and just want to run in guns blazing all the time, play a different game.
 

lilbabycat

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When you play as a rogue in world of warcraft compared to any other character it really feels like you're cheating.

I rarely had a problem with rogues that tried to gank me. Maybe you just have a magnetism towards ganking unsuspecting noobs/lowbies, or classes that you are the Rock to their scissors? Invisibility is treated wildly different in a multitude of games, and for the vast majority of MP ones it is one where a careful eye can pick up a predator-esque silhouette / shimmer your character usually has.
 
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