Inverse: A Highly Versatile Steam-Box Design

[esplin2966]

Look forward to seeing them.

Thanks!!

Once we get the prototype, we'll need to be running all sorts of tests. Does anyone know which CPU and GPU currently on the market have the WORST cooling performance? I want to make sure that when I'm running temperature tests, I'm testing the worst case scenario.

 

[iFreilicht]

Thanks!!

Once we get the prototype, we'll need to be running all sorts of tests. Does anyone know which CPU and GPU currently on the market have the WORST cooling performance? I want to make sure that when I'm running temperature tests, I'm testing the worst case scenario.

If you want to know what kind of heat they generate, look at the TDP, that could help. Right now, you'll probably get the most toast with the high-end AMD cards, those seem to be getting very toasty from what I've heard.

For the CPU, you could just use an undersized heatsink or put a resistor into the Fans Voltage supply line to make it spin slower. If you have a nocuta cooler you can use the Low Noise adapters they're shipped with.

 

[esplin2966]

If you want to know what kind of heat they generate, look at the TDP, that could help. Right now, you'll probably get the most toast with the high-end AMD cards, those seem to be getting very toasty from what I've heard.

For the CPU, you could just use an undersized heatsink or put a resistor into the Fans Voltage supply line to make it spin slower. If you have a nocuta cooler you can use the Low Noise adapters they're shipped with.

Yeah, I was thinking about getting the R9 290X and the i7 4790k. Overclocking will allow me to push the maximum wattage on both of those. And I can measure the maximum wattage by using one of those wattage measurers you plug into the wall.

 

[Aibohphobia]

And I can measure the maximum wattage by using one of those wattage measurers you plug into the wall.

The cheap consumer power meters are known to read low with modern PSUs with active PFC: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040592868&postcount=6

I'm using the Brand Electronics 4-1850: http://www.brandelectronics.com/meters.html

$150 but it does much better than the Kill-A-Watt.

Oklahoma Wolf (the main PSU reviewer at JonnyGuru.com) uses the Rek RF9901 and I think he's only ever run into one PSU that tripped it up. That's about $200 on eBay but you have to message them and ask for the 120V version if you want to use it here in NA: http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6804

I have a Extech 380803 on my test equipment wishlist but that's almost $900

 

[esplin2966]

The cheap consumer power meters are known to read low with modern PSUs with active PFC: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040592868&postcount=6

I'm using the Brand Electronics 4-1850: http://www.brandelectronics.com/meters.html

$150 but it does much better than the Kill-A-Watt.

Oklahoma Wolf (the main PSU reviewer at JonnyGuru.com) uses the Rek RF9901 and I think he's only ever run into one PSU that tripped it up. That's about $200 on eBay but you have to message them and ask for the 120V version if you want to use it here in NA: http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6804

I have a Extech 380803 on my test equipment wishlist but that's almost $900

That's unfortunate... Oh well, $150 is OK. Wish it were cheaper, but it's not terrible.

 

[esplin2966]

Update 06/15/2015:

Manufacturer is buying materials and accessories right now. Hopefully manufacturing can begin soon.

We are having a meeting with the manufacturers to get an update on their progress this week. We also found someone who can physically go to the factory and do some quality control, so we should be able to get some good-quality prototypes!

 

[esplin2966]

Update 06/24/2015:

Just got a message from our manufacturer. They’ll be manufacturing our 2 prototypes in the next 2 days! Super excited!

Now we gotta start buying components for testing and some PC building joy!

 

[iFreilicht]

Update 06/24/2015:

Just got a message from our manufacturer. They’ll be manufacturing our 2 prototypes in the next 2 days! Super excited!

Now we gotta start buying components for testing and some PC building joy!

OH YEAH! I'm so with you, that must be an awesome feeling! I think you may have already written that above, but could your reiterate on the two configurations you'll be testing? Or will there be even more?

 

[esplin2966]

OH YEAH! I'm so with you, that must be an awesome feeling! I think you may have already written that above, but could your reiterate on the two configurations you'll be testing? Or will there be even more?

I actually got so excited that I couldn't sleep last night lol.

I'm thinking about testing at least the 4 configurations specified in the OP. Not sure about the exact components though, gotta figure that out in the next few days. I might also try to do a "reach" configuration, where I do a custom water-cooled loop that goes through both the CPU and GPU.

 

[iFreilicht]

I see, that makes sense. Hopefully the prototypes won't have any manufacturing mistakes.

 

[sethiano]

that thing is sexy man. good work!

 

[The_Oasis]

Mate, your case is absolutely beautiful.

Man, I just love the SFF community. So many super cool cases, and I want all of them.

Good luck, esplin! You're doing a damn fine job!

 

[esplin2966]

I see, that makes sense. Hopefully the prototypes won't have any manufacturing mistakes.

Yeah, that's the one thing that frightens me right now. We'll have a guy there tomorrow to make sure they're doing a good job, so hopefully even if things don't go as planned, we can deal with it right away.

that thing is sexy man. good work!

Thanks a lot man! I appreciate the support.

Mate, your case is absolutely beautiful.

Man, I just love the SFF community. So many super cool cases, and I want all of them.

Good luck, esplin! You're doing a damn fine job!

Thanks! You guys definitely help motivate us through this project!

 

[dougp]

I wish it was designed for dual 120mm radiator AIOs - CPU and GPU. That'd be pretty sweet ... not sure you could fit it in the 240mm config area.

 

[esplin2966]

I wish it was designed for dual 120mm radiator AIOs - CPU and GPU. That'd be pretty sweet ... not sure you could fit it in the 240mm config area.

The design as it is will not fit 2 x 120mm radiators. It'll only fit a 240mm radiator, and I'm hesitant to make the case any bigger (I like being able to say <10L as opposed to <11L). Is there an advantage to having a different radiator for the CPU and the GPU versus just having a large radiator that goes through both CPU and GPU?

 

[Silentbob343]

The design as it is will not fit 2 x 120mm radiators. It'll only fit a 240mm radiator, and I'm hesitant to make the case any bigger (I like being able to say <10L as opposed to <11L). Is there an advantage to having a different radiator for the CPU and the GPU versus just having a large radiator that goes through both CPU and GPU?

Guessing for a situation like fury x

 

[dougp]

Guessing for a situation like fury x

And for EVGAs AIO 980/Ti as well. I think it's going to become more common.

Could there be modification of the GPU wall? Perhaps a removable area?

I know it's not a huge segment, but I think AIO cooled GPUs will become more mainstream soon and the that future proofs the case.

 

[esplin2966]

Guessing for a situation like fury x

And for EVGAs AIO 980/Ti as well. I think it's going to become more common.

Could there be modification of the GPU wall? Perhaps a removable area?

I know it's not a huge segment, but I think AIO cooled GPUs will become more mainstream soon and the that future proofs the case.

Hmm, that's a good point. I think I can work out a way to make this possible by only adding some holes and not have to significantly alter the design. Probably the compromise that'll have to be made is that an SFX-L PSU won't be supported with a dual 120mm water-cooling setup.

Btw, the compartment divider that separates the GPU from the rest of the case is removable, allowing for easier modifications to the case if the user so chooses.

 

[dougp]

Hmm, that's a good point. I think I can work out a way to make this possible by only adding some holes and not have to significantly alter the design. Probably the compromise that'll have to be made is that an SFX-L PSU won't be supported with a dual 120mm water-cooling setup.

Btw, the compartment divider that separates the GPU from the rest of the case is removable, allowing for easier modifications to the case if the user so chooses.

This is the first case that has me intrigued, then. If I can fit two AIO on there, nuts. I will sacrifice a SXFL.

 

[esplin2966]

This is the first case that has me intrigued, then. If I can fit two AIO on there, nuts. I will sacrifice a SXFL.

I'm gonna try to work an SFX-L in there! I just thought of a way that might work!

 

[DG25]

What PCI express riser cable do you plan to use? I'm guessing it will sit on the back of the GPU, isn't there a bit too hot for it (or for the gpu)?

 

[Necere]

The design as it is will not fit 2 x 120mm radiators. It'll only fit a 240mm radiator, and I'm hesitant to make the case any bigger (I like being able to say <10L as opposed to <11L). Is there an advantage to having a different radiator for the CPU and the GPU versus just having a large radiator that goes through both CPU and GPU?

Have you actually tested to see if you can fit a CLC in only 70mm of height? They tend to have very stiff tubing, and even with the 85mm of clearance between the bracket and the SFX PSU in the M1 it's a very tight fit with a ~27mm CLC and the tubing at the front. Less than 70mm of clearance just doesn't seem feasible to me.

Guessing for a situation like fury x

The Fury X rad is 65mm thick, which isn't going to happen in a 70mm tall case, unless you want to cut some holes and run the tubing outside. As a rough estimate, I'm going to say you'd need a good 50mm over the rad thickness to have enough space for the tubing to bend.

 

[esplin2966]

What PCI express riser cable do you plan to use? I'm guessing it will sit on the back of the GPU, isn't there a bit too hot for it (or for the gpu)?

Yes, the riser cable sits on the back of the GPU. I think it should be alright with heat, though this probably depends on the GPU. It has been done in this build though, and to my knowledge the guy had no issues with this setup.

Have you actually tested to see if you can fit a CLC in only 70mm of height? They tend to have very stiff tubing, and even with the 85mm of clearance between the bracket and the SFX PSU in the M1 it's a very tight fit with a ~27mm CLC and the tubing at the front. Less than 70mm of clearance just doesn't seem feasible to me.

The Fury X rad is 65mm thick, which isn't going to happen in a 70mm tall case, unless you want to cut some holes and run the tubing outside. As a rough estimate, I'm going to say you'd need a good 50mm over the rad thickness to have enough space for the tubing to bend.

Though I haven't tested with CLCs, I suspect the answer depends on various factors, like how flexible the tubes are, how much distance the tubes go before being bendable, etc. I do believe that it's going to be very tight no matter what though, and it'll definitely have to be a focus of testing when we get the prototypes. What might end up happening is that only certain models will fit, in which case we'll compile a compatibility list.

 

[iFreilicht]

What PCI express riser cable do you plan to use? I'm guessing it will sit on the back of the GPU, isn't there a bit too hot for it (or for the gpu)?

Adding to what esplin already said, I also tested a flexible riser for my current project, and it didn't have a single issue with the heat. Cables can take quite a beating when it comes to heat, 100°C are not nearly enough to melt the insulation of a regular jumper wire, and that is the first thing to go when you heat wires up.
But yeah, I'd be very interested in the riser as well, that thing needs to be super-reliable.

 

[DG25]

I'm curious, why the need for that space between the mobo and the gpu? Is it because you want to support non-reference GPUs with wider PCBs? Why not closer to the mobo?

 

[Jeremy1080]

I'm curious, why the need for that space between the mobo and the gpu? Is it because you want to support non-reference GPUs with wider PCBs?

Power Cables

 

[DG25]

Only if the PCB is the same length as the mobo, i'm guessing. If it is longer, as most are, than the power connectors would go past the mobo tray, allowing it to sit closer. And anyway, if that's the only reason, maybe the GPU could be placed a bit lower, in order for the power connectors to sit above the mobo (i.e above the pci express slot).

 

[esplin2966]

I'm curious, why the need for that space between the mobo and the gpu? Is it because you want to support non-reference GPUs with wider PCBs? Why not closer to the mobo?

Yeah, basically I want to support "wider" GPUs, like the MSI GTX 980 Gaming, which is nearly 150mm wide.

Only if the PCB is the same length as the mobo, i'm guessing. If it is longer, as most are, than the power connectors would go past the mobo tray, allowing it to sit closer. And anyway, if that's the only reason, maybe the GPU could be placed a bit lower, in order for the power connectors to sit above the mobo (i.e above the pci express slot).

I don't want to place the GPU any lower, because I want to be able to put fans over the GPU for extra cooling, similar to the way it is done in the Silverstone RVZ01.

 

[esplin2966]

Update 07/28/2015:

Hey everyone! Big update today.

Our manufacturer had produced a sample of our first prototype without any surface finishing, and we visited the factory to quickly test it out. While it worked, we weren't satisfied with its structural rigidity. This case is designed to hold loads (monitors, speakers,etc.), so it's absolutely important that it is physically strong.

Furthermore, our manufacturer said that having a varying-size hole pattern is too time-consuming for them to keep the same production price that we had agreed on. There was also mixed reception from the community regarding this design choice. We also received other feedback from the community, asking for the front IO to be moved to the front as well as for the design of a stand to hold the case vertically. Clearly, a redesign is in order.

After a lot of work, we updated the design to reflect the points mentioned above while keeping the same internal configuration (anything that it could hold before, it can hold now). The new design (renders updated in the OP) is stronger, has USB and audio plugs in the front, and employs a uniform yet unique hole pattern in the front to keep costs low. This new design has been submitted to the manufacturer, and they have made production prints for it. The second prototype is scheduled to begin manufacturing this week. We are also working on a case stand that also doubles as a slim ODD rack.

Despite this small setback in our timeline, we believe that it brought about a big improvement in the design. As always, we welcome any feedback regarding the design. Please don't hesitate to let us know what you think!

 

[vipz]

I would love to see pictures of the first prototype if you could share.

 

[esplin2966]

I would love to see pictures of the first prototype if you could share.

Absolutely! Here are some pictures:

 

[illli]

Furthermore, our manufacturer said that having a varying-size hole pattern is too time-consuming for them to keep the same production price that we had agreed on. There was also mixed reception from the community regarding this design choice. We also received other feedback from the community, asking for the front IO to be moved to the front as well as for the design of a stand to hold the case vertically. Clearly, a redesign is in order.

not really liking the changes to be honest. front usb/audio makes the front uglier. also, in picture #3 the power button is on the underneath side? how tall are those little nub feet? from the renders i thought maybe 1/2 an inch, it seems a little awkward to try to press a button on the underneath side with such a tight space. speaking of the feet, looks like they are in the same position as originally. was hoping they could have been moved a little more underneath to hide them more. I also liked the random-looking hole pattern in the cg renders more than the uniform in the prototype build, but maybe that was just for testing purposes?

 

[esplin2966]

not really liking the changes to be honest. front usb/audio makes the front uglier. also, in picture #3 the power button is on the underneath side? how tall are those little nub feet? from the renders i thought maybe 1/2 an inch, it seems a little awkward to try to press a button on the underneath side with such a tight space. speaking of the feet, looks like they are in the same position as originally. was hoping they could have been moved a little more underneath to hide them more. I also liked the random-looking hole pattern in the cg renders more than the uniform in the prototype build, but maybe that was just for testing purposes?

For this form factor, a lot of people will want to put this in a shelf or in a media rack. This means that for those people, having a USB in the front will be very helpful. There were also some awkwardness with case assembly when the IO ports were on the side, so I'm reluctant to completely remove them from the front. Maybe just having 1 USB would be better?

Yes, the power button is on the bottom now, about 3-4mm from the edge so you barely have to slip a finger in to press it. Having it on the bottom also prevents blinding LEDs from messing with your sleep (happens to me a lot, and some people have voiced similar issues to me).

The rubber case feet provided can be put anywhere, so don't worry about their location on the renders.

The random hole patterns in the renders are new, so the old prototype doesn't have it. The new prototype build will though. Glad you like it!

 

[SaperPL]

Absolutely! Here are some pictures:

Why would you make such cut-ins around PSU mount holes if there's no space from IO shield hole? There's literally like 2mm of unbent metal.

Also can you show us how the the covers come together at sides and the front edges? I'm not really sure but from this it looks like those are welded together. Is that it?

 

[iFreilicht]

Yeah I'm concerned about the PSU cutout as well. It is somewhat required by the standard, though.

I personally like the uniform hole pattern better than the new random one, and I think the coloured front audio looks fugly. Black audio jacks would look a whole lot better, but then you'd somehow have to mark what's what. 2 USB ports are fine on a front that is this large, though.

It looks like you where able to get the PCIe bracket holders punched into the metal. Did your manufacturer have tooling for this or did you have to pay for that extra?

Also, you could make the CPU bottom cutout a bit smaller, especially to the back I/O of the motherboard where no socket would ever reside.

 

[esplin2966]

Why would you make such cut-ins around PSU mount holes if there's no space from IO shield hole? There's literally like 2mm of unbent metal.

Also can you show us how the the covers come together at sides and the front edges? I'm not really sure but from this it looks like those are welded together. Is that it?

The PSU cutout was a design mistake that we all managed to miss somehow. It is corrected after the first prototype though, as can be seen in the new renders:

Here is a picture of how the top and bottom panel comes together at the sides.

Previously, the IO ports are on the side, and as you can see it looks ugly. It also made things difficult to assemble, which is why the updated design has the IO in the front.

Yeah I'm concerned about the PSU cutout as well. It is somewhat required by the standard, though.

I personally like the uniform hole pattern better than the new random one, and I think the coloured front audio looks fugly. Black audio jacks would look a whole lot better, but then you'd somehow have to mark what's what. 2 USB ports are fine on a front that is this large, though.

It looks like you where able to get the PCIe bracket holders punched into the metal. Did your manufacturer have tooling for this or did you have to pay for that extra?

Also, you could make the CPU bottom cutout a bit smaller, especially to the back I/O of the motherboard where no socket would ever reside.

The audio ports can be easily painted, as you suggested in the small form factors forum

My manufacturer had tooling for the PCIe bracket holders (they're a case company themselves), so it didn't cost us anything.

Good point about the size of the CPU cutout. From our tests, it doesn't seem to make things weaker though, as that part doesn't really take much weight. I can make the hole smaller just for safety.

 

[veryrarium]

@esplin2966

Hi, I guess this is my first post in this thread.
Am I understanding the following points correctly? I just went through the entire thread and have a comment/concern to express to you but I want to avoid saying things based on any misunderstanding of the case design.

1) In both the first prototype and the latest revision, the case height excluding the feet is 70mm, and that's the external measurement.

2) In both the first prototype and the latest revision, both the top and bottom sides of the case have two layers, namely, a 2mm thick aluminum panel on the outside and a 1.5mm thick steel on the inside, and the two layers are totally in contact with each other (unless there is a cutout) leaving 0mm space in between.

3) The renders for the four usecase configurations are for the first prototype and haven't been updated (as I see the "front" I/O facing sideways in those) but in each pair of "without the cover frame" and "with the cover frame" renders, this "cover frame" with all these rectangular cutouts and fan mount screw holes is the internal steel layer of the case bottom and not the external aluminum layer.
(I think so from the first of the six photos of the prototype.)

 

[esplin2966]

@esplin2966

Hi, I guess this is my first post in this thread.
Am I understanding the following points correctly? I just went through the entire thread and have a comment/concern to express to you but I want to avoid saying things based on any misunderstanding of the case design.

1) In both the first prototype and the latest revision, the case height excluding the feet is 70mm, and that's the external measurement.

2) In both the first prototype and the latest revision, both the top and bottom sides of the case have two layers, namely, a 2mm thick aluminum panel on the outside and a 1.5mm thick steel on the inside, and the two layers are totally in contact with each other (unless there is a cutout) leaving 0mm space in between.

3) The renders for the four usecase configurations are for the first prototype and haven't been updated (as I see the "front" I/O facing sideways in those) but in each pair of "without the cover frame" and "with the cover frame" renders, this "cover frame" with all these rectangular cutouts and fan mount screw holes is the internal steel layer of the case bottom and not the external aluminum layer.
(I think so from the first of the six photos of the prototype.)

Hey! I would be happy to hear your concerns and questions. Here are the answers to your clarification:

1) Actually, the external height measurement, excluding the feet is now 72mm because of the increase to 2mm aluminum in the outside. Length and width dimensions have also changed. I will update it right away after this post.

2) Basically correct. The case will come with some thin foam strips to put between the 2mm aluminum outer panel and the 1.5mm steel interior to prevent rattling.

3) Completely correct. I figured that since the internals are basically the same, I didn't need to update it. Evidently it is causing confusion, so I will get my designer to send me some updated renders.

Edit: Updated dimensions.

 

[veryrarium]

Hey! I would be happy to hear your concerns and questions. Here are the answers to your clarification:

1) Actually, the external height measurement, excluding the feet is now 72mm because of the increase to 2mm aluminum in the outside. Length and width dimensions have also changed. I will update it right away after this post.

2) Basically correct. The case will come with some thin foam strips to put between the 2mm aluminum outer panel and the 1.5mm steel interior to prevent rattling.

3) Completely correct. I figured that since the internals are basically the same, I didn't need to update it. Evidently it is causing confusion, so I will get my designer to send me some updated renders.

Edit: Updated dimensions.

Thanks for clarification. I didn't know the aluminum thickness was increased.
Now with my better grasp of size, I see the internal space has height 72 - (2 + 1.5 + foam thickness) * 2, that is, 65 - 2 * (form thickness). That *sort of* clarifies one of my questions, well actually hard to say as I don't know the thickness of each foam padding... I was wondering how a 63.5mm tall SFX PSU was made to fit between the two steel sheets even with a bit of margin left below the PSU as shown in one of the looked-up-from-below view renders.

But that was not my main concern, my main concern was AIO cooler fitment as pointed out by Necere. I think you should take his comment more seriously than what your reply to him sounded like, as I'm afraid not just some, but no single AIO cooler out there may fit in the 65mm or less space. I can confirm Corsair H60 (the 2013 edition) is a no-no, no matter how hard and badly I force and bend its rubber tubes at their connection with the rad ports to minimize the (rad + tube) combined height. I estimate this particular AIO requires more than 73mm of space as absolute minimum (and 73mm would leave me constantly worried about tubes getting cracked at the barb ridges). The problem lies not only in the stiffness of the rubber tubes but in the fact that the barbs at the inlet/outlet ports stick up perpendicular to the rad spanning quite a length above the rad giving little freedom in an effort to minimize the tube bending radius. AIOs with smooth or corrugated plastic (FEP?) tubes may or may not have shorter bend radius so I can't draw a sweeping conclusion, but now that you have a prototype case in hand I strongly recommend you test fit AIO coolers of different tube and barb types that you have access to, or ask kind people here or elsewhere who own 120/240mm AIOs and who don't mind checking to see how narrow they can make their units down to. Two of the four configurations you present in the OP rely on the use of AIOs and if your case turns out to not support any AIOs in the market I don't think you will be happy with your project.

 

[esplin2966]

Thanks for clarification. I didn't know the aluminum thickness was increased.
Now with my better grasp of size, I see the internal space has height 72 - (2 + 1.5 + foam thickness) * 2, that is, 65 - 2 * (form thickness). That *sort of* clarifies one of my questions, well actually hard to say as I don't know the thickness of each foam padding... I was wondering how a 63.5mm tall SFX PSU was made to fit between the two steel sheets even with a bit of margin left below the PSU as shown in one of the looked-up-from-below view renders.

But that was not my main concern, my main concern was AIO cooler fitment as pointed out by Necere. I think you should take his comment more seriously than what your reply to him sounded like, as I'm afraid not just some, but no single AIO cooler out there may fit in the 65mm or less space. I can confirm Corsair H60 (the 2013 edition) is a no-no, no matter how hard and badly I force and bend its rubber tubes at their connection with the rad ports to minimize the (rad + tube) combined height. I estimate this particular AIO requires more than 73mm of space as absolute minimum (and 73mm would leave me constantly worried about tubes getting cracked at the barb ridges). The problem lies not only in the stiffness of the rubber tubes but in the fact that the barbs at the inlet/outlet ports stick up perpendicular to the rad spanning quite a length above the rad giving little freedom in an effort to minimize the tube bending radius. AIOs with smooth or corrugated plastic (FEP?) tubes may or may not have shorter bend radius so I can't draw a sweeping conclusion, but now that you have a prototype case in hand I strongly recommend you test fit AIO coolers of different tube and barb types that you have access to, or ask kind people here or elsewhere who own 120/240mm AIOs and who don't mind checking to see how narrow they can make their units down to. Two of the four configurations you present in the OP rely on the use of AIOs and if your case turns out to not support any AIOs in the market I don't think you will be happy with your project.

I'm actually taking his comment fairly seriously, I just have no way of testing it. I don't currently have the first prototype on hand since it's in China. We just had someone go over to the factory to test it out, but it's gone now that we're on the second prototype.

In the meantime, I am thinking of a way to make sure the tubing of any AIO cooler fits. I'm thinking of making a small cutout at the bottom of the case to allow AIO tubing to come through, like this:

A little tight for money right now, but once I get paid at the end of the month I'll buy some AIO coolers to test the minimum tubing bend radius.