Intel's Layoff Letter To Employees

[GearChoices]

So you think the primary consideration for hiring someone should be to make sure all colors are equally represented?

Justice/equality etc means someone will not be denied because of their race/religion etc, not that they'll be hired because of it.

The difference between hiring/not-hiring based on citizenship is entirely different than hiring/not-hiring based on religion/ethnicity/race/sexual-orientation/gender/identity/national-origin/disability-status, etc...

When a US citizen remains underemployed/unemployed because he/she cannot get a job that a non-citizen got, and the non-citizen was not significantly more educated/skilled, the nation as a whole is weaker. The longer that citizen is out of work, the longer he/she is going without becoming more experienced/skilled, and the more experience/skill that will ultimately end up leaving the US if/when that H1-B returns to India.

And the more H1-Bs there are, the more excess labor there is, and the more companies reduce their inflation-adjusted compensation. Even when they do not decrease salaries, they are allowing compensation to fall because inflation occurs and they know there is excess labor ready to work at any price. Not to mention, as someone already said, H1-B workers are themselves abused in many ways that companies cannot get away with (at this time) on US workers, because if the H1-B says anything to anyone, it's immediately back to India.

Is it "just" that one life is improved with the sacrifice of another? I am not talking about in the case of Americans falling from the "upper" class as the "sacrifice," I am talking about Americans falling from the middle class into poverty (or never being able to rise above it), which is what is happening in the case of many prospective/current/former tech workers. That should not be an acceptable cost of providing a higher quality of life for a non-American. Justice requires the elimination of poverty, not shuffling it around.

US policy should be to import labor only as needed when there is ACTUALLY a shortage of qualified American students/graduates/workers. But no such shortage exists.

But as I have been saying, US citizens are NOT given an equal chance in the first place, because of the multiple reasons already stated. If they were given an equal chance, and the system was not rigged, they would be "finding" qualified workers and would not be able to report to the government, politicians, media, and corporate lobbying organizations that there is a "shortage."

And I'm not even asking for companies to not take advantage of cheap labor is a competitive advantage, since that is unfortunately increasingly necessary to stay competitive/in-business if consumers are not willing to pay a little more for higher quality products/service/work. BUT, they are not doing it "just to stay in business," even if that is also the reality. They are constantly lying/BSing that there is a "shortage" when there is not, lobbying/bribing politicians to change policy to allow them and all the other businesses to do it more, and funneling all the excess profit to the elites at the top.

 

[MrCrispy]

The difference between hiring/not-hiring based on citizenship is entirely different than hiring/not-hiring based on religion/ethnicity/race/sexual-orientation/gender/identity/national-origin/disability-status, etc...

When a US citizen remains underemployed/unemployed because he/she cannot get a job that a non-citizen got, and the non-citizen was not significantly more educated/skilled, the nation as a whole is weaker. The longer that citizen is out of work, the longer he/she is going without becoming more experienced/skilled, and the more experience/skill that will ultimately end up leaving the US if/when that H1-B returns to India.

And the more H1-Bs there are, the more excess labor there is, and the more companies reduce their inflation-adjusted compensation. Even when they do not decrease salaries, they are allowing compensation to fall because inflation occurs and they know there is excess labor ready to work at any price. Not to mention, as someone already said, H1-B workers are themselves abused in many ways that companies cannot get away with (at this time) on US workers, because if the H1-B says anything to anyone, it's immediately back to India.

Is it "just" that one life is improved with the sacrifice of another? I am not talking about in the case of Americans falling from the "upper" class as the "sacrifice," I am talking about Americans falling from the middle class into poverty (or never being able to rise above it), which is what is happening in the case of many prospective/current/former tech workers. That should not be an acceptable cost of providing a higher quality of life for a non-American. Justice requires the elimination of poverty, not shuffling it around.

US policy should be to import labor only as needed when there is ACTUALLY a shortage of qualified American students/graduates/workers. But no such shortage exists.

But as I have been saying, US citizens are NOT given an equal chance in the first place, because of the multiple reasons already stated. If they were given an equal chance, and the system was not rigged, they would be "finding" qualified workers and would not be able to report to the government, politicians, media, and corporate lobbying organizations that there is a "shortage."

And I'm not even asking for companies to not take advantage of cheap labor is a competitive advantage, since that is unfortunately increasingly necessary to stay competitive/in-business if consumers are not willing to pay a little more for higher quality products/service/work. BUT, they are not doing it "just to stay in business," even if that is also the reality. They are constantly lying/BSing that there is a "shortage" when there is not, lobbying/bribing politicians to change policy to allow them and all the other businesses to do it more, and funneling all the excess profit to the elites at the top.

I don't disagree really. But like I said above, the primary issue is that corporations want to make profit, and they are protected by a system and govt based on capitalism.

This focus on greed and wealth is the root cause of many issues and is the reason why there is no upward mobility, no real middle class, a huge income disparity etc that will continue to get worse. The effects on the tech/IT sector and the specific case of H!B workers is a very very minor part of a much bigger problem.

 

[GearChoices]

Do you have the same outrage for American companies who outsource manufacturing/labor to China? Because that's pretty much every single company, and they do it for the same reason - money.

If not you are a hypocrite.

Corporations by definition will do everything to generate more profit. That's what this country is based on and our govt does everything possible to protect corporations. Its easy to direct your hatred at Silicon Valley and tech companies who are subject to much more regulation and restrictions than most others and hire skilled workers.

Yes I am as outraged about those other things, and many more things. Because all of my beliefs are based on the idea that every single human being deserves justice - and yeah, justice includes punishment for those doing harm to others. I know some people would try to spin the word "justice" into meaning that murderers need to be treated well, etc... It is unfortunate I even had to add the note to cut that attack-path off before it starts - it's insane that "justice" is increasingly a bad word now.

When I can afford to do so, I buy high quality items regardless of where they are made. 100% of the time, I always find the best quality ends up being from Western nations. So I back up my words with action.

As I already said, I do not blame companies for cutting American workers to decrease costs. I do blame the hell out of them for the constant lying and manipulation of the political system and media (which are often the same companies) to allow them to do it. If they do not manipulate society, all they are doing is competing with the companies who are using those cost-cutting tactics, but when they go one step further and manipulate society to allow them to do it more, they no longer have the excuse, "i'm just doing it because I have to do so in order to compete."

 

[MrCrispy]

I think you have to accept that companies have no national loyalty or identity, and believing that our govt operates in the best interests of American citizens is naive in the extreme. Everything from elections to laws to policies is rigged and designed to benefit the wealthy.

There is only way to fix this - corporate and personal greed has to be contained and regulated. Yet we keep electing govts who believe the nonsense that 'tax cuts for rich and corporations create jobs' when there is absolutely no evidence to support this and never was.

Its not even about the IT industry. Look at how much protest there is against raising the minimum wage, providing benefits, or national health care (the real thing, not the current one). All because we are told it will 'hrm big business and thus the economy'. Yet those same companies are first to ask for trillion dollar bailouts from the taxpayers.

 

[M1ster_R0gers]

LOL, an HR person talking about sorting through technical resumes and cover letters.

That never ends well.

Do you think me being a member here for fifteen years means that I might have some "general technical" knowledge about things? Why even put forth effort to post something like that? Do you like insulting strangers?

 

[GearChoices]

Yes, I agree completely with all of that. It just annoys me when people make-up excuses or realities that are not true. At least the people saying, "there is no justice in the world, there should not be justice in the world, i am not advancing justice in the world, I do not want justice in the world, and I do not want anyone else wanting or working towards justice in the world" in one form or another are being honest. It is the constant denial that there is anything unjust going on, and the excuses for everything bad happening, that is annoying. That and the, "God exists, therefore injustice he created is good," and the, "God does not exist, therefore justice as a concept does not exist" arguments...

 

[jwcalla]

there could be an easy fix for this ... require all H1B visa participants to hold an MS, PHD, or post doctoral status from a Western university ... this would take away the argument of them "stealing" jobs from Americans as there are fewer Americans in those categories than there are foreign nationals

So you think requiring a PhD is a better solution than just ending the program and letting Americans fill the jobs so they don't have to live on food stamps handed out by a government $18 trillion in debt?

What is with the obsession with expanding the labor supply to be as large as possible? It's on both the low end (with Mexicans) and the higher end (tech sector). Do people not understand the dynamics of labor supply and demand? And are people deceived about the current employment / unemployment situation in the nation?

You know... there really aren't a lot of jobs out there that can't be replaced with foreign labor after just a bit of training. It just so happens that there aren't any special visa programs for other lines of work. Does anybody really think a Chinese couldn't be trained to replace street lamps? Or an Indian working in HR? Does anybody think a Malaysian couldn't handle being court clerk? How about a Burmese driving the big brown truck? How hard would it be to train somebody from Qatar to be a police officer? Surely they have police there too! Why not just bring them all over here and pay them a nickel an hour? It'll be great for the economy.

Or is it only tech people and those in service jobs that should bear the brunt of this idiotic thinking?

People complain equally about outsourcing (moving jobs to foreign countries completely) even though that has been extremely beneficial for consumers allowing Americans to have have unprecedented purchasing power compared to previous generations ... for those complaining about the lose of "American" jobs, how many of you own a TV or monitor made in the USA, how many of you are wearing clothes made in the USA, what about your computer, your phone ... I have worked for companies (including Intel) that had a large overseas presence but they still employed workers in the USA who weren't on H1B visas

This might surprise you... but people actually had TVs, phones and clothes back in the day when all those things were made in America.

 

[CRaschNet]

Disney is just as bad right now. Seems the IT market is getting substandard employees for the H1B Visa.

 

[punisher]

This focus on greed and wealth is the root cause of many issues and is the reason why there is no upward mobility, no real middle class, a huge income disparity etc that will continue to get worse. The effects on the tech/IT sector and the specific case of H!B workers is a very very minor part of a much bigger problem.

Any corporation, publically traded corporation, will always focus on "greed and wealth" and profits. It is this way for any successful business regardless of size. Successful = Being able to open the doors every day, and not have the paychecks bounce. Shareholders expect the maximum return on their investment, and if the board doesn't deliver as expected, they will be replaced.

Decades ago there was nowhere else for US business to find qualified skilled labor except the US, and some Western European nations. European labor was usually more expensive than American labor, so guess what, US labor got the nod. Cars were built here, electronics were built here, hand tools were forged here, heck, even clothes were made here. The rest of the world caught up, at least to the point of being "good enough", and in some cases better..........and almost certainly cheaper.

Stockholders and investors now have abilities for near instantaneous trading. Brokerage houses fight for milliseconds of time to beat the competition to buy/sell. They pay outrageous sums to mathematicians to write algorithms that can work faster to decide on buys/sells. Long story short, stock can be dumped in a fraction of a heartbeat. Investers can move to "greener pastures" quickly. If a corporation shows a sign of weakness, stock prices fall immediately. Oh, "greener pastures" include every publically traded corporation on the planet, not just here in the US.

Not a lot we can do in the US to fix the problem, except become more competitive, and make it possible for corporations to hire Americans and still have enough income to keep investors happy. I just don't see anything else changing. It is a spiral. We like cheap goods, can't have cheap goods without cheap labor, there is no cheap labor in the US, US workers are out of jobs, and couldn't afford goods made in the US.....because they have no jobs that pay a decent income.

Its a core problem. Three generations of generally shit parenting, schools that have essentially become public daycare centers, and teachers rendered ineffective because of those parents, are tanking us. GIGO. I don't even know if we have the will to do what is needed to fix the system, or even if there is a solution at this point. We might be the country supplying the cheap labor for other country's versions of HIBs in a decade or so.

 

[Exavior]

I like the pretty way they said you are fired.

 

[Largo]

That letter was dick. hahaha. Nice. Least they are giving them 3 months worth of pay to find a new position, and it's possible to collect unemployment.

 

[Ur_Mom]

I think you have to accept that companies have no national loyalty or identity, and believing that our govt operates in the best interests of American citizens is naive in the extreme.

Wal-mart used to pride itself on stocking "Made in USA" before going to alternatives. When Sam died, they dropped that initiative. Many American's aren't going for the Made in USA stuff, either. They love the cheap Chinese made shit. But, which is it? They can't afford the USA made stuff due to low wages, or the low wages are caused by less people buying their product due to competition?

It's just getting harder to push all the Chinese shit out of the way to get to the American made stuff. I heard an argument in Oregon for raising the minimum wage. If they raise it, it will raise the buying power of the worker. Sure. Then, they will spend that money on goods from American companies to help cover the costs of the higher wages... That part I can't agree on (although, I am not a consumer expert on any level). I think they will buy more cheap foreign products vs. the American products...

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Wal-mart used to pride itself on stocking "Made in USA" before going to alternatives. When Sam died, they dropped that initiative. Many American's aren't going for the Made in USA stuff, either. They love the cheap Chinese made shit. But, which is it? They can't afford the USA made stuff due to low wages, or the low wages are caused by less people buying their product due to competition?

It's just getting harder to push all the Chinese shit out of the way to get to the American made stuff. I heard an argument in Oregon for raising the minimum wage. If they raise it, it will raise the buying power of the worker. Sure. Then, they will spend that money on goods from American companies to help cover the costs of the higher wages... That part I can't agree on (although, I am not a consumer expert on any level). I think they will buy more cheap foreign products vs. the American products...

It's not like making something in the US doesn't somehow involve the shipment of raw materials or parts or something from another place on the planet anyhow so buying junk with a "Made in USA" tag on it doesn't mean a whole lot anywho.

Raising minimum wages also doesn't really do much of anything in the long run. What happens is that the baseline cost of a unit of labor at the bottom of the expenses stack rises for businesses across the board which means that the cost of goods and services based on that labor has to rise because those costs are eventually passed on to the consumer so business enterprises can pay expenses and maintain profit margins. It then devalues the income of everyone else who has to then go looking for higher paying jobs to compensate for more expensive goods and services. So like raising it is disruptive, but if left alone to stabilize, there's eventually a net zero change relative to costs which kinda makes the whole exercise of doing so pretty pointless except for like temporary political advantages or duping the average person making that lowest wage into thinking things are better because they can buy more beer and watch more NASCAR when that won't really be the case in the long run.

 

[Ur_Mom]

It's not like making something in the US doesn't somehow involve the shipment of raw materials or parts or something from another place on the planet anyhow so buying junk with a "Made in USA" tag on it doesn't mean a whole lot anywho.

Not anymore. But, at least you're supporting more jobs in the US, even if the raw materials are foreign.

Raising minimum wages also doesn't really do much of anything in the long run. What happens is that the baseline cost of a unit of labor at the bottom of the expenses stack rises for businesses across the board which means that the cost of goods and services based on that labor has to rise because those costs are eventually passed on to the consumer so business enterprises can pay expenses and maintain profit margins. It then devalues the income of everyone else who has to then go looking for higher paying jobs to compensate for more expensive goods and services. So like raising it is disruptive, but if left alone to stabilize, there's eventually a net zero change relative to costs which kinda makes the whole exercise of doing so pretty pointless except for like temporary political advantages or duping the average person making that lowest wage into thinking things are better because they can buy more beer and watch more NASCAR when that won't really be the case in the long run.

I think a lot of what people are wanting is that the so-called 1% are taking in most of the money and not sharing it. By raising the minimum wage, they want to close that gap. Some think that the CEO and others will take pay cuts to make up for it, not raise prices to make up for it. It is funny listening to politicians try and answer questions on it, though. One guy asked the question "Teachers are already underpaid. What will they think when some kid flipping burgers is making as much as they are at $15 an hour?". The response - "It's not only kids flipping burgers. There are also many adults that have minimum wage jobs. There are more adults than teens with those jobs.". Didn't even address the real question.

But, I make more than minimum wage, and I can buy more beer than I could on minimum wage. NASCAR is still on TV on the weekends, nothings changed there. So, they might be onto something. Higher wages = more beer... I'm spending more on beer, but I'm not really getting more in quantity. Just drinking better beer. NASCAR still has Danicka Patrick, though, so that part is still a bust.

 

[Ducman69]

Minimum wage is a joke though, because you don't WANT many adults working minimum wage jobs, you want them in career positions and producing greater output for society than just working lettuce in their 40s which is ridiculous. That should be an exception to the rule, and a demonstration of a complete failure to have produced an adult that isn't capable of his time being put to better use.

Besides, minimum wage can be fixed by more organic mechanisms, such as simply deporting all the illegal aliens and having strict border control and immigration laws. A police officer can pull over a van of Mexicans without a driver's license in Houston, and yet he's not authorized to arrest them because he's not INS which is crazy IMO. Its simply a matter of supply and demand, and the reason that garbage truck drivers made a healthy living in the 1960s is simply because he wasn't competing millions upon millions from South of the border flooding our domestic unskilled labor pool. Pretty common sense.

But even if you raise the minimum wage to say $15 an hour, that has no effect on the 1%ers income, and if anything will simply translate into increased cost of consumer goods and services that will shrink the middle class. The real problem is not that someone flipping a burger isn't making enough, its that a college educated person may only be making $50K-$200K for their skilled labor while a tiny percentage of the population has a net worth greater than some small countries. Take Bill Gates for example. If you are in your 30s and were to make $100 million a day... again a day, you would still not catch up to Bill Gates in Net Worth before you died. Think about that for a second, and then explain to me how increasing a burger flippers income is going to affect that? Its apples and oranges.

BTW, most teachers are NOT underpaid, they are under-qualified and shouldn't have gotten the job in the first place! Unionized American public school teachers include (with some exceptions) some of the absolute dumbest people I have met, and are a complete and total joke to the standards that are in place in private schools and schools overseas in Germany, France, and Singapore at least (I'm sure many others). Half of the unionized public school teachers I have met are clearly not much more than bored housewives with empty nest syndrome and figured they wanted to be around kids, not field experts that want to pass on knowledge, and the kids recognize this. This is why they also fight against any kind of standardized metric to evaluate their performance, because they know they don't measure up. Our University professors by contrast are top notch again, but again these are non-unionized and generally field experts that command respect with a mastery of the subject matter, so its not that we don't have intelligent people, just that our public school systems are designed to attract middle-age housewives that like kids with low standards accordingly.

 

[Ur_Mom]

BTW, most teachers are NOT underpaid, they are under-qualified and shouldn't have gotten the job in the first place! Unionized American public school teachers include (with some exceptions) some of the absolute dumbest people I have met, and are a complete and total joke to the standards that are in place in private schools and schools overseas in Germany, France, and Singapore at least (I'm sure many others). Half of the unionized public school teachers I have met are clearly not much more than bored housewives with empty nest syndrome and figured they wanted to be around kids, not field experts that want to pass on knowledge, and the kids recognize this. This is why they also fight against any kind of standardized metric to evaluate their performance, because they know they don't measure up. Our University professors by contrast are top notch again, but again these are non-unionized and generally field experts that command respect with a mastery of the subject matter, so its not that we don't have intelligent people, just that our public school systems are designed to attract middle-age housewives that like kids with low standards accordingly.

You're making me rethink my life goals. When I'm older, I want to teach kids. Either middle school or high school computer lab teacher. I want to pass on my knowledge and what I've learned over the years onto another generation without yelling "In my day, we had PUNCHCARDS! We did it all by hand, therefore, we are better!".

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

BTW, most teachers are NOT underpaid, they are under-qualified and shouldn't have gotten the job in the first place! Unionized American public school teachers include (with some exceptions) some of the absolute dumbest people I have met, and are a complete and total joke to the standards that are in place in private schools and schools overseas in Germany, France, and Singapore at least (I'm sure many others). Half of the unionized public school teachers I have met are clearly not much more than bored housewives with empty nest syndrome and figured they wanted to be around kids, not field experts that want to pass on knowledge, and the kids recognize this. This is why they also fight against any kind of standardized metric to evaluate their performance, because they know they don't measure up. Our University professors by contrast are top notch again, but again these are non-unionized and generally field experts that command respect with a mastery of the subject matter, so its not that we don't have intelligent people, just that our public school systems are designed to attract middle-age housewives that like kids with low standards accordingly.

One of my friends has a brother who is teaching and for his BS in education teaching 2nd grade he only gets like $60k a year. He's working on his masters right now so he can get an extra like $5k or something. The cost of living is pretty low here, but thats still probably the saddest income ever.

As for University professors being top notch, that's not always true. I'm a college student right now and I've had like a big mix of competency. Some professors are very good at what they do and know the material they're teaching extremely well. Some have like zero clue and it doesn't have anything to do with age or experience in their fields either.

 

[heatlesssun]

One of my friends has a brother who is teaching and for his BS in education teaching 2nd grade he only gets like $60k a year.

Are we talking in the US? $60k is well above the national median for an individual.

 

[MrCrispy]

Wal-mart used to pride itself on stocking "Made in USA" before going to alternatives. When Sam died, they dropped that initiative. Many American's aren't going for the Made in USA stuff, either. They love the cheap Chinese made shit. But, which is it? They can't afford the USA made stuff due to low wages, or the low wages are caused by less people buying their product due to competition?

It's just getting harder to push all the Chinese shit out of the way to get to the American made stuff. I heard an argument in Oregon for raising the minimum wage. If they raise it, it will raise the buying power of the worker. Sure. Then, they will spend that money on goods from American companies to help cover the costs of the higher wages... That part I can't agree on (although, I am not a consumer expert on any level). I think they will buy more cheap foreign products vs. the American products...

It doesn't matter if they buy American/Chinese products. The argument for raising the minimum wage is simple - wealth has to be distributed in a fair manner. When the corps and their execs earn billions, there is no reason they can't pay their workers a decent salary.

Now the traditional argument is that employers will pay workers what they want and the system will adjust due to demand/supply, but that's nonsense and always has been.

Paying your workers a bare minimum which is not even enough for rent/food means they have NO income to spend on anything else - they won't be going to restaurants, movies, vacations, buy any toys/gifts, buy a new car etc etc - they won't do anything to support the economy.

The Republicans WANT this - they can keep claiming that 'its your own fault if you are poor' and protest against any social benefits, meanwhile pushing for more tax cuts for the rich which translates straight into profit.

Rich/Republicans want to privatize profit and socialize risk, when it should be the other way around.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Are we talking in the US? $60k is well above the national median for an individual.

Yes, in the US. I don't see how the median could possibly be something below $60k since that's like working poor income. My household income is substantially higher, I have no mortgage, no car payments, no cell phone, no cable TV, and my rent and utilities are very cheap for my area and I'm highly annoyed I don't save more than I do now and have to watch what I buy so I can make regular deposits in savings and my extra (non-work funded) retirement accounts. It totally sucks. How do people make it with all those bills plus kids and anything _less_ than 60k?

 

[Ur_Mom]

It doesn't matter if they buy American/Chinese products. The argument for raising the minimum wage is simple - wealth has to be distributed in a fair manner. When the corps and their execs earn billions, there is no reason they can't pay their workers a decent salary.

But where is the extra money coming from for wages? The corps and execs are not going to take a pay cut. It's not redistribution of wealth, IMO.

However - I am not a politics major, nor am I an expert with economics. I am good with a gradual rise in wages, as most are. Just trying to see how things will work and see how the various arguments pan out. Basically, trying to learn more based on the various arguments I hear...

 

[mope54]

Our University professors by contrast are top notch again, but again these are non-unionized and generally field experts that command respect with a mastery of the subject matter, so its not that we don't have intelligent people, just that our public school systems are designed to attract middle-age housewives that like kids with low standards accordingly.

Professors are unionized. You pull so much misinformation out of your ass it borders on pathological.

 

[TwistedAegis]

The issue I have with the current employment situation and corporations is that we are now in a very, very specialized world. Back in the day, for less specialized jobs, there were apprenticeships, on the job training, etc.

But now corporations sitting on literal mountains of money and piss and moan that there aren't "qualifed" to do the very specific internal function; they wish to find someone who has, on their own risk, time and money, done all of that, then hire/fire them at will.

They need to take on some of the training on their own, instead of the continuous effort to break the bargaining power of the average worker. But they continue to win, which is why median income has only grown by less than 0.1% per year (inflation-adjusted) since the early 1970s.

 

[TwistedAegis]

But where is the extra money coming from for wages? The corps and execs are not going to take a pay cut. It's not redistribution of wealth, IMO.

However - I am not a politics major, nor am I an expert with economics. I am good with a gradual rise in wages, as most are. Just trying to see how things will work and see how the various arguments pan out. Basically, trying to learn more based on the various arguments I hear...

Economics are not a zero sum game. There is a price that people will pay for goods, so at a certain point, the corp and execs will have to take some pay cut. Prices may rise some as well.

But, with more discretionary income spread out, you increase demand substantially. And you also create a more balanced distribution of demand. Rather than high employment in luxury goods, yachts, mansion construction (Apple watches), you get people making basic goods, furniture, etc, of which 100,000,000 people with new discretionary income will want rather than 5,000 people with $10M more dollars to add to their $1B.

 

[MrCrispy]

But where is the extra money coming from for wages? The corps and execs are not going to take a pay cut. It's not redistribution of wealth, IMO.

However - I am not a politics major, nor am I an expert with economics. I am good with a gradual rise in wages, as most are. Just trying to see how things will work and see how the various arguments pan out. Basically, trying to learn more based on the various arguments I hear...

Why shouldn't they take a pay cut? And btw, they don't have to take a pay cut. We just need to stop passing laws that allow them to legally not pay taxes and use the many loopholes and strategies that exist specifically to only help the 1%. That's where all the money is going.

The total amount of money is fixed (more or less), you can't keep printing currency. So you do need redistribution of wealth. What's been happening for the last few decades is redistribution upwards - all the middle class money has moved to the wealthy. Why can't it move the other way?

 

[TwistedAegis]

Why shouldn't they take a pay cut? And btw, they don't have to take a pay cut. We just need to stop passing laws that allow them to legally not pay taxes and use the many loopholes and strategies that exist specifically to only help the 1%. That's where all the money is going.

What, you mean like Apple and Google saying that a major patent underpinning all of their IP is owned by a PO box in Norway, and thus assign billions of dollars of profits to said PO box to only pay the 1% or 3% in taxes they charge, even when most of those profits were generated within the US?

I'd love to do that. BTW, a significant portion of my genetic code traces back to Norway as well, so that's how I'm going to base my taxes on as well!

 

[Ur_Mom]

Why shouldn't they take a pay cut? And btw, they don't have to take a pay cut. We just need to stop passing laws that allow them to legally not pay taxes and use the many loopholes and strategies that exist specifically to only help the 1%. That's where all the money is going.

The total amount of money is fixed (more or less), you can't keep printing currency. So you do need redistribution of wealth. What's been happening for the last few decades is redistribution upwards - all the middle class money has moved to the wealthy. Why can't it move the other way?

Because have you ever tried to take something from someone? They don't want to do it. They are powerful and in control. Their own checks are going to be the last of the cuts. Same with those loopholes. It'll be hard to close those without new ones opening up.

 

[MrCrispy]

Because have you ever tried to take something from someone? They don't want to do it. They are powerful and in control. Their own checks are going to be the last of the cuts. Same with those loopholes. It'll be hard to close those without new ones opening up.

Well for a start we need to stop electing multi millionaires, I mean why do people think they will ever vote for the interests of the common people? Rich pass laws to help the rich.

 

[heatlesssun]

Professors are unionized. You pull so much misinformation out of your ass it borders on pathological.

Some are even members of the Teamsters I believe but the big one is the AAUP, American Association of University Professors.

 

[fdiaz78]

It doesn't matter if they buy American/Chinese products. The argument for raising the minimum wage is simple - wealth has to be distributed in a fair manner. When the corps and their execs earn billions, there is no reason they can't pay their workers a decent salary.

Now the traditional argument is that employers will pay workers what they want and the system will adjust due to demand/supply, but that's nonsense and always has been.

Paying your workers a bare minimum which is not even enough for rent/food means they have NO income to spend on anything else - they won't be going to restaurants, movies, vacations, buy any toys/gifts, buy a new car etc etc - they won't do anything to support the economy.

The Republicans WANT this - they can keep claiming that 'its your own fault if you are poor' and protest against any social benefits, meanwhile pushing for more tax cuts for the rich which translates straight into profit.

Rich/Republicans want to privatize profit and socialize risk, when it should be the other way around.

Is this the tripe being taught in our schools today? You get paid what your labor is worth. If you feel you are underpaid then you are free to go somewhere else that will value your labor//skills.

 

[MrCaffeineX]

Is that letter for real? It doesn't look real. It seems kind of unprofessional and something a 13-yo trying to prank the internet would put together.



You can joke all you want, but people who don't have their heads in the sand recognize it's a serious problem.

They did an in-depth report on the H-1B subject on NPR recently, but did not draw any conclusions from the research. There have been numerous attempts at addressing the issue, with bi-partisan support in Congress, but they have gone nowhere.

The root of the problem is that while the world economy has been in the process of globalization, our society has not caught up. This has left a lot of skilled workers in a position where they feel entitled to a higher wage (shocking right?), but the companies they work for can easily lay them off in order to replace them with cheaper workers, who may be from other countries.

It really is no different than the consultants' proposal in Office Space where they want to replace half a dozen higher wage employees with temps for half the salary, while keeping one of them on-board with a raise to manage the menagerie. This kind of thing has been happening in corporate America for as long as I have been in the workforce. The only major difference is that we are no longer competing with only applicants within the US - we are now competing on a global scale.

The never-ending quest for more corporate profits feeds the demand for shuffling the employee deck on a regular basis. By doing so, companies prevent employees from attaining salaries that are deemed too high for the job performed.

Further downward pressure is added in times of surplus labor because people just want a job to make some money to pay their bills, so they will take less money in exchange for their time. Automation can replace workers with machinery, making those workers less valuable (not as people mind you, but we're dealing with a world-view where people are nothing more than a consumable resource with a specific cost).

Setting aside the diversity arguments for the time being, it should be apparent to any thinking individual that these labor issues are not black and white. We are witnessing a major transition in the global economy, spurred by technology, and as a society, we are not yet willing to get together to address these issues. As a result, the majority of politicians on both ends of the spectrum are simply dialing up the rhetoric to garner enough support to get elected, without truly wanting to legislate anything once they are elected. The rare few that try to engage people (including other politicians) in a discussion of these topics are treated as pariahs.

 

[heatlesssun]

Setting aside the diversity arguments for the time being, it should be apparent to any thinking individual that these labor issues are not black and white. We are witnessing a major transition in the global economy, spurred by technology, and as a society, we are not yet willing to get together to address these issues.

These issues are FAR from new. The only reason I'm in this country today two centuries after the fact is due to the global pursuit of cheap labor.

 

[MrCaffeineX]

Is this the tripe being taught in our schools today? You get paid what your labor is worth. If you feel you are underpaid then you are free to go somewhere else that will value your labor//skills.

This was certainly true in the past, but I don't think it can be summarized with such a blanket statement in today's global economic landscape. There are a number of factors (some mentioned in my previous post) that are putting downward pressure on wages. MrCrispy makes some relevant points as well, but even he broad-brushes things that are more nuanced.

In terms of economics, a strong middle class, as determined by purchasing power, is necessary for a consumption economy to function properly. We have had several decades of stagnant, or negative, wage growth, especially at the middle class level, and for a number of different reasons. Inflationary pressures have driven costs up during that time period, leaving fewer people with the disposable income necessary to drive the economy forward.

The global economy is forcing a fundamental shift in the way we are examining fiscal and monetary policy, but the majority of people in the US are averse to change, so they will elect representatives that are also change-averse. When things finally get resolved, I suspect that people currently on both sides of the debate will not like the results.

 

[Burticus]

TLDR, too much random hate anyway.

As someone who was recently laid off and is still looking for work, I sympathize with anyone affected by these layoffs.

And comments like "if you can't get a job in tech in xyz time", well sure, if you want to take a huge pay cut and start over. I can tell you finding something that isn't a big cut in pay is hard. I see stuff all day long from recruiters basically wanting technical gods for $25 an hour or less. I could live on that but I would have to sell my house. Actually that is still on the table.

 

[TwistedAegis]

If everyone is happy with American median income reverting to the global economic mean, with a few "superstars" here and there earning massive paychecks, then by all means, advocate for that.

I, meanwhile, will be advocating differently. And I expect as the doctors and lawyers and other degreed professionals start to see automation start taking their jobs, they won't be using the same tired arguments about just moving up the knowledge ladder.

 

[heatlesssun]

I, meanwhile, will be advocating differently. And I expect as the doctors and lawyers and other degreed professionals start to see automation start taking their jobs, they won't be using the same tired arguments about just moving up the knowledge ladder.

Great point. Telling doctors and lawyers to go get better jobs is a hollow argument.

 

[Ducman69]

Professors are unionized. You pull so much misinformation out of your ass it borders on pathological.

You're like a gopher accusing people of digging holes, lol! Please show us what percentage of private university tenured professors are unionized compared to our public school system. *pops popcorn* Oops!

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

You're like a gopher accusing people of digging holes, lol! Please show us what percentage of private university tenured professors are unionized compared to our public school system. *pops popcorn* Oops!

The AAPU has like 47,000 members which isn't a lot, but because mope has a law degree and you have...well you have a motorcycle anyway, he's probably right and you're probably wrong.

 

[mope54]

Well...less about degrees and more about keeping a discussion in context...

ducman made an assertion about unionized K-12 systems compared to university professors

since he was talking about public k-12, the analog must be public university professors and not private university professors

if he was actually referring to private university professors then he would have to consider private k-12 institutions, which aren't unionized.

It's the same mistake he makes in nearly all of his other comparisons: trying to draw analyses between disparate categories without establishing a basis for doing so.

If his point is about unions, then he needs to compare k-12 unionized teachers to k-12 non-unionized teachers, unionized professors compared to non-unionized professors and not across categories like unionized k-12 compared to non-unionized, private university professors.


As for the numbers, it's a strange request of him to ask for a comparison of how many public university professors exist vs. private university instructors. Using California as one example of how silly this kind of comparison would be, here is a list of California higher education institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_..._California#Private_colleges_and_universities

The amount of private colleges are far more numerous than public institutions, but looking at that list you'll find that there are but a small handful of private institutions that one would willingly choose to go to as a top choice (and hope to obtain gainful employment afterward). Or we could simply compare the rankings of the UC's and certain Cal States (of which there are nearly 40,000 unionized professors along, but we aren't part of the AAUP) to those private universities and find the private institutions sorely lacking in quality.

We would find the same (silly) levels of discrepancy if we tried to compare the thousands of public k-12 schools to the dozens of private k-12 schools in California.

He hasn't bothered to account for the simplest of variables, like funding or salaries, for examples.

There may be a relationship between unionization and quality of education, but he hasn't even begun to think about that relationship correctly nor has can he demonstrate it with the way he's going about it in this discussion.

 

[PersonalJ]

Minimum wage is a joke though, because you don't WANT many adults working minimum wage jobs, you want them in career positions and producing greater output for society than just working lettuce in their 40s which is ridiculous. That should be an exception to the rule, and a demonstration of a complete failure to have produced an adult that isn't capable of his time being put to better use.

Besides, minimum wage can be fixed by more organic mechanisms, such as simply deporting all the illegal aliens and having strict border control and immigration laws. A police officer can pull over a van of Mexicans without a driver's license in Houston, and yet he's not authorized to arrest them because he's not INS which is crazy IMO. Its simply a matter of supply and demand, and the reason that garbage truck drivers made a healthy living in the 1960s is simply because he wasn't competing millions upon millions from South of the border flooding our domestic unskilled labor pool. Pretty common sense.

But even if you raise the minimum wage to say $15 an hour, that has no effect on the 1%ers income, and if anything will simply translate into increased cost of consumer goods and services that will shrink the middle class. The real problem is not that someone flipping a burger isn't making enough, its that a college educated person may only be making $50K-$200K for their skilled labor while a tiny percentage of the population has a net worth greater than some small countries. Take Bill Gates for example. If you are in your 30s and were to make $100 million a day... again a day, you would still not catch up to Bill Gates in Net Worth before you died. Think about that for a second, and then explain to me how increasing a burger flippers income is going to affect that? Its apples and oranges.

BTW, most teachers are NOT underpaid, they are under-qualified and shouldn't have gotten the job in the first place! Unionized American public school teachers include (with some exceptions) some of the absolute dumbest people I have met, and are a complete and total joke to the standards that are in place in private schools and schools overseas in Germany, France, and Singapore at least (I'm sure many others). Half of the unionized public school teachers I have met are clearly not much more than bored housewives with empty nest syndrome and figured they wanted to be around kids, not field experts that want to pass on knowledge, and the kids recognize this. This is why they also fight against any kind of standardized metric to evaluate their performance, because they know they don't measure up. Our University professors by contrast are top notch again, but again these are non-unionized and generally field experts that command respect with a mastery of the subject matter, so its not that we don't have intelligent people, just that our public school systems are designed to attract middle-age housewives that like kids with low standards accordingly.

Professors are not top notch, they are only top notch at a handful of institutions (Maybe top 50 schools or so).