Intel's Andy Grove on Manufacturing in America

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the must read article of the morning.

Among the scores of fabless chip companies and product design houses in Silicon Valley, Intel is a standout. It's an American high-tech company that not only creates but builds some of the most sophisticated tech products in the world here. That contrasts with others, like Apple and Hewlett-Packard, that consign virtually all product manufacturing and assembly abroad.
 

muzzle79

Gawd
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
636
Pretty good read.

Follows the same sentiments a lot of people have. The US is no longer a goods based economy and more of a Services based one.

The biggest problem facing US manufacturing? Cost, Americans aren't willing to pay the additional fees to cover workers salaries etc. We've become a culture used to having it our way at the cheapest possible price and this does not jive with cutting prices. Hence why the Chinese market has done so well. That said, you're starting to see a shift in human rights issues in Main land China increasing the end costs to purchasers of OEM manufacturing.
This seems to be driving manufacturing to places like Vietnam and such.


Bottom line is it's not just the government that needs to intervene. It's the American people. If the people aren't concerned, government investment will only serve as a waste of time and money.


"Disclosure: This was typed on a Mac made in China, with a Microsoft KB made in China, on Samsung monitors made in China and a desk made in Sweeden (by product of somewhere else.)
 

RedShark

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
1,891
From the article:
"On the other hand, we are competing with a very effective country [China] that's beating the shit out of us," according to Grove.

CNet normally sensors those naughty words. Amusing. Grove has a point though :p
 

Zarathustra[H]

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
31,548
Don't they have most of their well paying R&D jobs in Israel?

Who cares about the uneducated hourly manufacturing jobs. We need more high end , well paying, degreed jobs in the U.S.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
31,548
"Disclosure: This was typed on a Mac made in China, with a Microsoft KB made in China, on Samsung monitors made in China and a desk made in Sweeden (by product of somewhere else.)

IKEA? Designed in Sweden.. Manufactured wherever they could do it the cheapest. Probably somewhere in Turkey or southeast Asia.
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
The biggest problem facing US manufacturing? Cost,

I agree that cost is the biggest problem, but differ with whose to blame.
It's not so much the consumer, as it is government related costs.
The high level of regulations combined with high taxes is what is killing manufacturing in the US.
Combined with the "Free trade at any cost" policy that's overly one sided against the US, and it's no wonder businesses move production overseas.

Instead of high taxes on business, the Federal government needs to go back to raising revenue through tariffs on imports.
Tariffs should be based on whatever tariffs the other country puts on US imports. If China charges an average 30% tariff on US goods brought into their country, then we should be charging 30% on everything being imported from china.

Regulations need to be streamlined and cut back.
This doesn’t mean eliminate all regulation like the Left constantly whines, but there are so many different agencies a company has to deal with just to build or add onto a plant, that many times it becomes cost-prohibited.

Stop government medaling in the market.
From the mess Fannie May and Freddie Mac made of the housing market, to the bogus “green job economy” that kills several jobs for every one it creates, to ethanol and other farm subsidies that raise food prices.
They are all a waste of taxpayer’s money that ends up hurting the middle class in the end.

While businesses have used computers and automation to become more productive (producing more per person) over the last 30 years, government has become less productive (it cost more and provides less).
One example is public schools out here in California. Adjusting for inflation, the cost per student has gone up 200-300%, yet quality has gone down (more students fail to graduate high school, lower test scores, etc)

When are we going to clean up government so we can return jobs back to this country?
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
Zarathustra[H];1036387477 said:
Who cares about the uneducated hourly manufacturing jobs. We need more high end , well paying, degreed jobs in the U.S.


Not everyone is a candidate for a college degree. A lot of people used to make a good living in manufacturing.

The push that everyone needs to go to college and get a degree is unrealistic, and is part of the reason college costs are so high. The need for a degree has been so imbedded in our society (mainly by people who have degrees) that people take out huge loans to get one, then end up waiting tables while trying to pay back the loans.

I’ve seen managers who would hire someone with no job experience and an unrelated degree, over someone with several years experience but no degree. The one thing these managers had in common, was the fancy degree hanging on their wall and a complete cluelessness about the real world.
 

snapperdragon0

Weaksauce
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
68
Very well articulated, nutzo.

There are a lot of costs that everyone in the US demands be placed on manufacturing and yet couldn't care less if the goods they buy are from countries that decide to side step them in the name of competition.

It feels good to pass this stuff until you lose your job.
 

snapperdragon0

Weaksauce
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
68
Not everyone is a candidate for a college degree. A lot of people used to make a good living in manufacturing.

The push that everyone needs to go to college and get a degree is unrealistic, and is part of the reason college costs are so high. The need for a degree has been so imbedded in our society (mainly by people who have degrees) that people take out huge loans to get one, then end up waiting tables while trying to pay back the loans.

I’ve seen managers who would hire someone with no job experience and an unrelated degree, over someone with several years experience but no degree. The one thing these managers had in common, was the fancy degree hanging on their wall and a complete cluelessness about the real world.

You are on a roll. Totally agree, and I get upset when I hear people that make statements like that. Jobs need to be available across the board because that reflects the population.

Any time you have a large population with nothing to do for work...the end result is you either pay them off (welfare, unemployment, etc) or they riot. I'm not against those programs by any stretch, but it is getting ridiculous these days.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
31,548
Not everyone is a candidate for a college degree. A lot of people used to make a good living in manufacturing.

The push that everyone needs to go to college and get a degree is unrealistic, and is part of the reason college costs are so high. The need for a degree has been so imbedded in our society (mainly by people who have degrees) that people take out huge loans to get one, then end up waiting tables while trying to pay back the loans.

I’ve seen managers who would hire someone with no job experience and an unrelated degree, over someone with several years experience but no degree. The one thing these managers had in common, was the fancy degree hanging on their wall and a complete cluelessness about the real world.

I wouldn't say no to a new plant in the U.S. But lets be realistic. If we want the high pay we have been accustomed to, its probably going to have to come from high tech highly educated positions.


The problem here is that We have too high standards of pay for manufacturing to work in the U.S.

We have lost our competitive edge in manufacturing because of such utterly ridiculius things as line assembly workers (unskilled labor) demanding $20+ per hour, when these peoples skills make them disposable, and they really ought to be minimum wage type jobs.

Pay is based on supply and demand. If I can replace you tomorrow, I am less likely to really care if I keep you, and thus I am going to pay you less. However - if you have a skillset I can't replace, then I am going to make sure I pay you well so you stay. When we have expectations, living standards and unions that drive wages up above what supply and demand would dictate as a price, its no wonder companies look to manufacture elsewhere in the world, where the costs more closely approximate the value of the labor.

So we have to be realistic. Unless we are going to impose some sort of draconian protectionistic trade restrictions that will hurt us in the long term, we have driven these jobs abroad and what remains are high qualified design/tech jobs. If wee can't compete in this field either we are going to be thoroughly screwed too...

...and we are currently losing this battle cause too many people go to college and study some flake degree like English, history, political science, psychology, sports management or basket weaving, instead of focusing on an important skill based professional degree that gives us a competitive edge like in Statistics, Mathmatics, Engineering or Science.

The problem with higher education is not that too many people pursue it. The problem is that too many people pursue unimportant subjects because they think they are "fun" or "interesting" instead of selecting a degree in which there is a real potential career, and thus wind up with a lot of debt, and no earning potential to show for it, or to help pay it off.
 

PurduEE

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 9, 2000
Messages
1,578
Not everyone is a candidate for a college degree. A lot of people used to make a good living in manufacturing.

The push that everyone needs to go to college and get a degree is unrealistic, and is part of the reason college costs are so high. The need for a degree has been so imbedded in our society (mainly by people who have degrees) that people take out huge loans to get one, then end up waiting tables while trying to pay back the loans.

I'll follow the trend and agree. We can't all have high-paying, so-called knowledge-worker jobs. It's unsupportable and unrealistic. Moreover, the way student loans are handled in the US (cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and guaranteed by the government) may come to a head as more and more people graduate with substantial debt and no means to repay it. That guaranteed money is big business for the for-profit colleges in particular. Someone signed me up for information from University of Phoenix as a joke - those guys called all day long and wanted to get me signed up and qualified for loans as quickly as possible. It's a pure scam supported by this idea that you need a degree (even a questionable one).
 

PurduEE

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 9, 2000
Messages
1,578
Zarathustra[H];1036387774 said:
We have lost our competitive edge in manufacturing because of such utterly ridiculius things as line assembly workers (unskilled labor) demanding $20+ per hour, when these peoples skills make them disposable, and they really ought to be minimum wage type jobs.

I think the kind of assembly line worker you're talking about rarely exists. I imagine there's a substantial amount of skill in assembling modern products. While I have never worked in a fab, I've worked for companies with fabrication facilities. It appears to be a highly-complex, heavily automated process. It is possible that the workers who populate such facilities may have been unskilled upon their hiring, but it can't be said that they're "unskilled" labor. If a job could be done by someone truly unskilled, it would likely be automated.

So we have to be realistic. Unless we are going to impose some sort of draconian protectionistic trade restrictions that will hurt us in the long term, we have driven these jobs abroad and what remains are high qualified design/tech jobs. If wee can't compete in this field either we are going to be thoroughly screwed too...

Some protection seems to be what Grove is talking about in the article. As others have stated, China and other countries don't exactly play fair with the whole free-trade thing (currency manipulation, etc.). I fail to see why the US can't play the same games and/or why doing that would be draconian. It seems to work fine for China.

...and we are currently losing this battle cause too many people go to college and study some flake degree like English, history, political science, psychology, sports management or basket weaving, instead of focusing on an important skill based professional degree that gives us a competitive edge like in Statistics, Mathmatics, Engineering or Science.

Sounds nice, and I hear it said a lot, but factually it falls flat. I worked in the PC biz for about 10 years. Almost all of the jobs in that industry that used to employ engineers in the states have moved overseas - this is discussed in the article.
 

Blown 89

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
3,436
The biggest problem facing US manufacturing? Cost
Actually, that's not their biggest problem. The biggest problem is that they can outsource work and not only get it done cheaper but get it done better and faster. I highly recommend the book "The World is Flat" by Thomas L. Friedman. It's a book that examines outsourcing, insourcing, homesourcing etc. More or less it's a book about how technology is changing the business world. I have to read it for a class I'm taking at ASU and it's absolutely fascinating. There's even a chapter dedicated to Open Source.
 

Sherk

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Messages
2,286
I'm going to school for an engineering degree. It absolutely kills me how many foreign students we have here; most are also on free rides.

To me, this is doing several things:
1) Directly increasing the cost of an education in America (by paying for theirs they have to increase costs for those of us who do pay in)
2) Allowing more jobs to move overseas, when those students go back to their own countries...
3) Making it harder for American students to get into a limited degree program
 
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
50
Zarathustra[H];1036387477 said:
Don't they have most of their well paying R&D jobs in Israel?

As far as I know, Intel has two main R&D groups, one in Oregon and the other in Israel and they develop in tandem. For instance, the Israel team worked on the Core architecture, the Oregon team worked on Nehalem, and the Israel team is working on Sandy Bridge, etc.
 

dopexile

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
70
There's a good reason why nothing is manufacturered in the US.

1) Labor Unions - They expect never ending, unrealistic wage increases even if a company is unprofitable\uncompetitive. They use "featherbedding" rules to adopt inefficient work procedures which appear pointless, complex and time-consuming merely to employ additional workers. They try to extort money out of companies by taking means of production hostage. It's a fun party until foreign, non-union competition comes and puts them out of business.
2) Laws and Regulations - Think of all the governments, permits, lawyers, and regulations involved to open a factory in the US... then compare those to Asian countries.
3) Second highest corporate taxes in the world.
4) Overvalued US dollar and wages because China, Japan, etc always push it up into to flood the country with exports. The US government is always willing to sell these countries treasuries so they can overspend and politicians have more power.
 

SamuraiInBlack

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
5,734
Zarathustra[H];1036387774 said:
The problem here is that We have too high standards of pay for manufacturing to work in the U.S.

Yeah, because you know, that whole safety in the workplace thing is just a total farce. What's a little toxic chemical exposure rendering someone a vegetable compared to making a few million? Or unlicensed and untrained machine operators destroying a few pallets of product worth hundreds of thousands of dollars once in awhile, or running over a co-worker with a one ton machine?

We have lost our competitive edge in manufacturing because of such utterly ridiculius things as line assembly workers (unskilled labor) demanding $20+ per hour, when these peoples skills make them disposable, and they really ought to be minimum wage type jobs.

You've never set foot in a manufacturing gig in your life, have you?

Pay is based on supply and demand. If I can replace you tomorrow, I am less likely to really care if I keep you, and thus I am going to pay you less. However - if you have a skillset I can't replace, then I am going to make sure I pay you well so you stay. When we have expectations, living standards and unions that drive wages up above what supply and demand would dictate as a price, its no wonder companies look to manufacture elsewhere in the world, where the costs more closely approximate the value of the labor.

So are you willing to work for pennies just to keep a job that you're good at so that your company can stay competitive? Because that's what you're saying. Oh, you have a degree do you? So do a bunch of guys in India who are willing to work for less than $5 an hour and work 80 hour weeks just to take YOUR job and make it theirs. You going to compete with that? Because that's quite the reality NOW. Its not just 'unskilled labor' going byebye from America.

So we have to be realistic. Unless we are going to impose some sort of draconian protectionistic trade restrictions that will hurt us in the long term, we have driven these jobs abroad and what remains are high qualified design/tech jobs. If wee can't compete in this field either we are going to be thoroughly screwed too...

Or maybe we could actually start raking the rest of the world over the coals like they do to us. Fair is fair, right?

...and we are currently losing this battle cause too many people go to college and study some flake degree like English, history, political science, psychology, sports management or basket weaving, instead of focusing on an important skill based professional degree that gives us a competitive edge like in Statistics, Mathmatics, Engineering or Science.

Tell that to my friend who is six grand in the hole with a degree AND experience that should be landing him a gig doing anything that has ANYTHING to do with flying a plane to working on one, with 4 years experience in the Navy working on planes, yet he can't get anything better than working at UPS as a truck loader and his only other option is to re-enlist (I forget the reason why he hasn't). He's got plenty of flight time under his belt and knows the ins and outs of the science of flying. To someone in his field he may not be all that impressive, but to me he may as well have written the book.

The problem with higher education is not that too many people pursue it. The problem is that too many people pursue unimportant subjects because they think they are "fun" or "interesting" instead of selecting a degree in which there is a real potential career, and thus wind up with a lot of debt, and no earning potential to show for it, or to help pay it off.

And there are many more who have pursued real career potential and just flat out aren't getting it. For every person you can name that's become successful I am willing to bet you can find at least 10 people in their graduating class who actually busted ass but have yet to get their lucky break. There are no guarantees that just because you have a degree and experience to match that you will get a job. It just means that at best, you have an edge over competition. And even then, there's still no guarantee that you'll even get THAT.
 

PersonalJ

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
1,795
Yeah, because you know, that whole safety in the workplace thing is just a total farce. What's a little toxic chemical exposure rendering someone a vegetable compared to making a few million? Or unlicensed and untrained machine operators destroying a few pallets of product worth hundreds of thousands of dollars once in awhile, or running over a co-worker with a one ton machine?



You've never set foot in a manufacturing gig in your life, have you?



So are you willing to work for pennies just to keep a job that you're good at so that your company can stay competitive? Because that's what you're saying. Oh, you have a degree do you? So do a bunch of guys in India who are willing to work for less than $5 an hour and work 80 hour weeks just to take YOUR job and make it theirs. You going to compete with that? Because that's quite the reality NOW. Its not just 'unskilled labor' going byebye from America.



Or maybe we could actually start raking the rest of the world over the coals like they do to us. Fair is fair, right?



Tell that to my friend who is six grand in the hole with a degree AND experience that should be landing him a gig doing anything that has ANYTHING to do with flying a plane to working on one, with 4 years experience in the Navy working on planes, yet he can't get anything better than working at UPS as a truck loader and his only other option is to re-enlist (I forget the reason why he hasn't). He's got plenty of flight time under his belt and knows the ins and outs of the science of flying. To someone in his field he may not be all that impressive, but to me he may as well have written the book.



And there are many more who have pursued real career potential and just flat out aren't getting it. For every person you can name that's become successful I am willing to bet you can find at least 10 people in their graduating class who actually busted ass but have yet to get their lucky break. There are no guarantees that just because you have a degree and experience to match that you will get a job. It just means that at best, you have an edge over competition. And even then, there's still no guarantee that you'll even get THAT.

The lack of jobs is related more to wage disparity, not necessarily workplace safety. Having to pay for various entitlement programs such as Social Security and other programs drives up wages.
 

pinq

n00b
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
57
and you wonder why i7-980xs sell for a grand each...

seriously, building in the us is capital intensive. not gonna create a whole lot of jobs. like those french factories that are 100% automated.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
31,548
You've never set foot in a manufacturing gig in your life, have you?

Working in one right now thank you. We - the engineers - make pretty little procedures telling the assembly workers exactly how to do their jobs. The procedures even have pictures. If you can read a picture book, you can do the basic assembly work. A monkey could almost do it.

True, we have some more qualified "tech" type positions that are not degree based positions, but still require some skill, but there are very few of these.


So are you willing to work for pennies just to keep a job that you're good at so that your company can stay competitive? Because that's what you're saying. Oh, you have a degree do you? So do a bunch of guys in India who are willing to work for less than $5 an hour and work 80 hour weeks just to take YOUR job and make it theirs. You going to compete with that? Because that's quite the reality NOW. Its not just 'unskilled labor' going byebye from America.

I don't like it eaither, but its going to happen wheter we like it or not. If we want to maintain our standard of living we will need to make sure that we are better at what we do than everyone else in the world. That currently isnt the case, and it starts with the wrong priorities in school. (high school being all about fashion, football and drama club rather than what the russians and chinese do, 16 hour days filled with math and statistics.) No wonder they are kicking our asses. We have become too lazy.

Or maybe we could actually start raking the rest of the world over the coals like they do to us. Fair is fair, right?

In what way is the rest of the world raking us over coals? Please do tell.


Tell that to my friend who is six grand in the hole with a degree AND experience that should be landing him a gig doing anything that has ANYTHING to do with flying a plane to working on one, with 4 years experience in the Navy working on planes, yet he can't get anything better than working at UPS as a truck loader and his only other option is to re-enlist (I forget the reason why he hasn't). He's got plenty of flight time under his belt and knows the ins and outs of the science of flying. To someone in his field he may not be all that impressive, but to me he may as well have written the book.

So he's essentially a flying bus driver/mechanic. Big whoop. Have you seen the airline industry lately? It's collapsing on itself. Maybe he should have picked a field in which there are actually some prospects.


And there are many more who have pursued real career potential and just flat out aren't getting it. For every person you can name that's become successful I am willing to bet you can find at least 10 people in their graduating class who actually busted ass but have yet to get their lucky break. There are no guarantees that just because you have a degree and experience to match that you will get a job. It just means that at best, you have an edge over competition. And even then, there's still no guarantee that you'll even get THAT.

I know economic times are tough right now. This happens every 10 years or so, and this one is bigger than the average one. With time it will get back to where we were in the early 2000's, but we need a little patience. It took a long time and a lot of effort to get ourselves into this mess, and we won't be able to dig ourselves out of it overnight.

Besides. Times are not as tough as you are making them out to be. Sure. 10% unemployment. This means 90% of those who want work have it. You get this on a test it's an A. Actually, to follow the test analoguy, this ought to actually be balanced up a little bit on a curve, as the best you can ever expect is about 4-5%.

Even when the world economy recovers - however - we will still have to compete with the rest of the world, and there is - due to competitive reasons - simply no future for unskilled labor in the U.S. If we are lucky, and work really hard, and make smarter decisions than we have in the past, then MAYBE, just MAYBE we'll keep a competitive endge on the qualified stuff...

...but as it stands right now they are eating our lunch, cause they want what we've had since the 50s and they are HUNGRY and willing to work for peanuts to start to get there.
 

Blown 89

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
3,436
Tell that to my friend who is six grand in the hole with a degree AND experience that should be landing him a gig doing anything that has ANYTHING to do with flying a plane to working on one, with 4 years experience in the Navy working on planes, yet he can't get anything better than working at UPS as a truck loader and his only other option is to re-enlist (I forget the reason why he hasn't). He's got plenty of flight time under his belt and knows the ins and outs of the science of flying. To someone in his field he may not be all that impressive, but to me he may as well have written the book.
That's your "buddy's" fault for choosing that career path. Pilots have been having a hard time landing jobs for a long time and flying in the Navy doesn't mean you have the experience the civilian world wants. When I was in flight school everyone said the fastest way to get a seat wasn't in the forces. You get more flight time and more experience outside of the military. If UPS is the best he can land HE is the one doing something wrong, not the system.

I agree with Zarathustra[H], the guys on assembly lines are some of the most overpaid employees in the world. The overinflated sense of entitlement and self worth those guys has is unconceivable and yes, I've been on one. It's not rocket science.
 

psilence

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
167
Zarathustra[H];1036388657 said:
Working in one right now thank you. We - the engineers - make pretty little procedures telling the assembly workers exactly how to do their jobs. The procedures even have pictures. If you can read a picture book, you can do the basic assembly work. A monkey could almost do it.

True, we have some more qualified "tech" type positions that are not degree based positions, but still require some skill, but there are very few of these.




I don't like it eaither, but its going to happen wheter we like it or not. If we want to maintain our standard of living we will need to make sure that we are better at what we do than everyone else in the world. That currently isnt the case, and it starts with the wrong priorities in school. (high school being all about fashion, football and drama club rather than what the russians and chinese do, 16 hour days filled with math and statistics.) No wonder they are kicking our asses. We have become too lazy.



In what way is the rest of the world raking us over coals? Please do tell.




So he's essentially a flying bus driver/mechanic. Big whoop. Have you seen the airline industry lately? It's collapsing on itself. Maybe he should have picked a field in which there are actually some prospects.




I know economic times are tough right now. This happens every 10 years or so, and this one is bigger than the average one. With time it will get back to where we were in the early 2000's, but we need a little patience. It took a long time and a lot of effort to get ourselves into this mess, and we won't be able to dig ourselves out of it overnight.

Besides. Times are not as tough as you are making them out to be. Sure. 10% unemployment. This means 90% of those who want work have it. You get this on a test it's an A. Actually, to follow the test analoguy, this ought to actually be balanced up a little bit on a curve, as the best you can ever expect is about 4-5%.

Even when the world economy recovers - however - we will still have to compete with the rest of the world, and there is - due to competitive reasons - simply no future for unskilled labor in the U.S. If we are lucky, and work really hard, and make smarter decisions than we have in the past, then MAYBE, just MAYBE we'll keep a competitive endge on the qualified stuff...

...but as it stands right now they are eating our lunch, cause they want what we've had since the 50s and they are HUNGRY and willing to work for peanuts to start to get there.

I generally disagree with the premise of your argument, but with the bolded in particular, although I don't think it's your fault for repeating these figures. Unemployment is actually much higher, nearer 17-20%, because the government isn't reporting unemployment figures even as it was back in the clinton days. If you take both the U3 and U6 figures and add them together, un/under employment is actually nearly double the official 10% figure.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/10/24/60_minutes_the_real_unemployment_rate_is_17.html
 

Zarathustra[H]

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
31,548
I generally disagree with the premise of your argument, but with the bolded in particular, although I don't think it's your fault for repeating these figures. Unemployment is actually much higher, nearer 17-20%, because the government isn't reporting unemployment figures even as it was back in the clinton days. If you take both the U3 and U6 figures and add them together, un/under employment is actually nearly double the official 10% figure.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/10/24/60_minutes_the_real_unemployment_rate_is_17.html

I feel like it is entirely appropriate not to include those who have stopped looking in the numbers, as they no longer affect the supply / demand equation.

That being said, lets take your 17%, that converts to an 83%. Adjust this up on the bell curve by 4.5 percentage units to account for the real perfect scenario, and we have 87.5%. Thats still a solid B, if not an A-... :p
 

DocSavage

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 18, 2002
Messages
2,409
I'm going to school for an engineering degree. It absolutely kills me how many foreign students we have here; most are also on free rides.
Are you serious about the free rides for foreign students? Who is subsidizing these, and why?
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
11,267
Zarathustra[H];1036388657 said:
Working in one right now thank you. We - the engineers - make pretty little procedures telling the assembly workers exactly how to do their jobs.

I wouldn't get too smug about it. Engineering jobs get heavily outsourced as well. When your job is outsourced for 1/4 your wages (about what we were paying outsourced Chinese engineers) will you feel like it is time for you to take a 75% pay cut because that is all you are now worth on the global market?

With time it will get back to where we were in the early 2000's, but we need a little patience. It took a long time and a lot of effort to get ourselves into this mess, and we won't be able to dig ourselves out of it overnight.

Early 2000's was another bubble. It has been a long time since we had real growth with a solid foundation.


...but as it stands right now they are eating our lunch, cause they want what we've had since the 50s and they are HUNGRY and willing to work for peanuts to start to get there.

Realize that we will never have the boom times of the 50's again. That was largely the result of the USA emerging relatively unscathed after WWII, while most of the rest of the world was in rubble as the war was fought in their countries.

We are now looking at a long period of equalization, where the China/India gets the boom times and we stagnate.
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
11,267
Are you serious about the free rides for foreign students? Who is subsidizing these, and why?

When I was in University, Many foriegn students had free rides, but it was paid by their own government, not ours, and their governements paid more than local students to cover the real unsubsidized cost of education.
 

PersonalJ

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
1,795
Zarathustra[H];1036388975 said:
I feel like it is entirely appropriate not to include those who have stopped looking in the numbers, as they no longer affect the supply / demand equation.

That being said, lets take your 17%, that converts to an 83%. Adjust this up on the bell curve by 4.5 percentage units to account for the real perfect scenario, and we have 87.5%. Thats still a solid B, if not an A-... :p

That's bad math, U6 unemployment/underemployment from the BIS is a valid number. Right now it is at 17.0%. This number does not include people who have been forced out of the workforce and are no longer looking for work.
 

westrock2000

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
9,233
Representing long time semiconductor fab Texas Instruments, right here smack dab in the middle of the United States (Dallas). Not only that, my 3000 sq. foot home only costs $150K (brand new) and I am not part of a union and I have great health care.

America is alive and kicking here!
 

westrock2000

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
9,233
Oh and were looking to have out best year since 2000 (right before the industry went to shit).
 

SamuraiInBlack

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
5,734
The lack of jobs is related more to wage disparity, not necessarily workplace safety. Having to pay for various entitlement programs such as Social Security and other programs drives up wages.

Yeah I was overlooking the pay part.

This is what i get for running on 2 hours of sleep. Yay ridiculous hours at work!
 

aaronspink

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
2,122
As far as I know, Intel has two main R&D groups, one in Oregon and the other in Israel and they develop in tandem. For instance, the Israel team worked on the Core architecture, the Oregon team worked on Nehalem, and the Israel team is working on Sandy Bridge, etc.

Intel has major R&D centers in Oregon, California, Arizona, Massachusetts, Washington, Colorado, Haifa(Israel), Mexico, and Bangalore(India). They majority of the semiconductor fabs are in the US (Oregon, Massachusetts, New mexico, Arizona), 1 in Israel, 1 in Ireland, and 1 in China. The Ireland and China sites do trailing edge processes. Assembly and Test are in Costa Rica, Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, and China. In addition, all the fabs are capable of low volume A&T work as well.

http://newsroom.intel.com/community...es-law-around-the-world-in-bricks-and-mortar/ has a list of all the active fabs and their locations.
 

aaronspink

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
2,122
Are you serious about the free rides for foreign students? Who is subsidizing these, and why?

A lot of countries subsidize their student studying in the US. Outside of a few countries (aka US/Europe) in the world, there aren't a whole lot of top tier academic institutions. The US happens to have a LOT of universities that offer degrees in fields that are important the world over. As a for instance, there are many middle eastern countries with bright educated nationals, lots of money, and little to no post high school education infrastructure. A good for instance is Dubai which pays for many of its nationals to go to school abroad in the US and Europe.

So that's a lot of free rides without even getting into scholarships and grants for foreign students.
 

FrostCS

n00b
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
32
I am glad they do the designs and everything here, although I can't remember the last time I saw Product of USA or Manufactured in USA on it.
 

Cyrilix

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
2,188
I'm going to school for an engineering degree. It absolutely kills me how many foreign students we have here; most are also on free rides.

To me, this is doing several things:
1) Directly increasing the cost of an education in America (by paying for theirs they have to increase costs for those of us who do pay in)
2) Allowing more jobs to move overseas, when those students go back to their own countries...
3) Making it harder for American students to get into a limited degree program

Free rides my ass. International students pay a buttload for university, about 2-3x more in tuition fees than PR or citizens.
 

Cyrilix

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
2,188
So are you willing to work for pennies just to keep a job that you're good at so that your company can stay competitive? Because that's what you're saying. Oh, you have a degree do you? So do a bunch of guys in India who are willing to work for less than $5 an hour and work 80 hour weeks just to take YOUR job and make it theirs. You going to compete with that? Because that's quite the reality NOW. Its not just 'unskilled labor' going byebye from America.

I don't really see what you mean here. If someone is willing to work 80 hours to survive, while you're only willing to work 40 for a fairly equivalent job, then I'm sorry to say, they will take your job. The only way to prevent this is to differentiate yourself somehow, by doing a job that requires greater qualifications that those people don't have or by being the best in your field so your 40 hours are worth more than their 80 hours. Unfortunately, that's the reality.
 

Cyrilix

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
2,188
Zarathustra[H];1036388975 said:
I feel like it is entirely appropriate not to include those who have stopped looking in the numbers, as they no longer affect the supply / demand equation.

That being said, lets take your 17%, that converts to an 83%. Adjust this up on the bell curve by 4.5 percentage units to account for the real perfect scenario, and we have 87.5%. Thats still a solid B, if not an A-... :p

I don't think you can look at unemployment that way... as a school grade. Regardless, 10-20% seems like a bit much, if you ask me.
 
Top