Intel's 9th Generation Core Family - Coffee Lake (Refresh)

Having spent a nontrivial amount of my life researching and developing SMT - I would just reiterate that you should run benches to validate assumptions. Things are often quite counter-intuitive.

Cache with relation to the cores is very tricky. Cache population is quite good in modern processors. It turns out "more cache" rarely has much of an impact in most programs (emphasis on most - there are some things which are all over the place with memory locality), because the access patterns which blow up the 'smaller' cache still blows up the larger.

Constrast this with having another thread on the core - you avoid stalling the entire core based upon 1 cache miss or similar stall. This is why SMT ends up giving really solid improvements, even though you'd think the cores should be fully utilized by aggressive workloads. Stalls are very expensive.

So if the desire is to have more cache versus more threads, consider that the bargain really boils down to slightly increasing your cache hit rate at the cost of significantly increasing the cost of a cache miss.

If power/heat is a huge concern, I'm not going to have any good advice. Trying to optimize throughput while saying power is the primary constraint is not a world I've had to live in. Well, I guess my advice would still be "Get more cooling!" :)

my options are quite limited because laptop. going from 4c to 6c was a no brainer, 6c6t > 4c8t in multithreaded workload while generate less heat than 6c12t. laptop itself could handle 6c/12t just fine as it is designed for 8700k.

however going from 6 to 8 is different. 4c8t would benefit say 30% with HT on over 4c4t, but 4c to 6c is 50% more cores, so 2 more cores already > 4 more threads. even benching like CB15 are best case scenario due to how optimized that software is, while most other software aren't and instead are optimized towards user experience and features.

I had to get the best SL binned chip to achieve decent overclock. going to 8c heat will be an issue (i do plan to mod heatsink eventually). as much as I do agree testing to validate, most consumer software aren't as optimized as bench software, this would require me testing each software for my own personal usage scenario. cache is really a bonus here cause it comes with 8 core and 8c/16t chip usually comes with more cache than 8c/8t chips. (8700k vs 8600k).

turning off threads to reduce heat and has more cache also mean i might be able to boost frequency by 100mhz more (thats just a bonus as 4.8ghz vs 4.7, the increase dont matter much). unless of course what you're saying is, going from 1c1t to 1c2t would mean better performance for even single threaded workloads.. did i misunderstand?
 
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my options are quite limited because laptop. going from 4c to 6c was a no brainer, 6c6t > 4c8t in multithreaded workload while generate less heat than 6c12t. laptop itself could handle 6c/12t just fine as it is designed for 8700k.

however going from 6 to 8 is different. 4c8t would benefit say 30% with HT on over 4c4t, but 4c to 6c is 50% more cores, so 2 more cores already > 4 more threads. even benching like CB15 are best case scenario due to how optimized that software is, while most other software aren't and instead are optimized towards user experience and features.

I had to get the best SL binned chip to achieve decent overclock. going to 8c heat will be an issue (i do plan to mod heatsink eventually). as much as I do agree testing to validate, most consumer software aren't as optimized as bench software, this would require me testing each software for my own personal usage scenario. cache is really a bonus here cause it comes with 8 core and 8c/16t chip usually comes with more cache than 8c/8t chips. (8700k vs 8600k).

turning off threads to reduce heat and has more cache also mean i might be able to boost frequency by 100mhz more (thats just a bonus as 4.8ghz vs 4.7, the increase dont matter much). unless of course what you're saying is, going from 1c1t to 1c2t would mean better performance for even single threaded workloads.. did i misunderstand?

I think I'm really saying get the 8c/16t chip, carefully benchmark before assuming SMT off is a superior choice. If you're really running single threaded code a lot, well heck, don't get the 8c at all. But if you are running threaded code a lot, the HT will generally be a net positive computation/watt versus turning it off - even if you have to lower the overall clocking a little.

Since this is my area, I would also be interested in any field data you generate along these lines.
 
I'll be holding on to my Skylake-X for a couple more generations.

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I think I'm really saying get the 8c/16t chip, carefully benchmark before assuming SMT off is a superior choice. If you're really running single threaded code a lot, well heck, don't get the 8c at all. But if you are running threaded code a lot, the HT will generally be a net positive computation/watt versus turning it off - even if you have to lower the overall clocking a little.

Since this is my area, I would also be interested in any field data you generate along these lines.
8 cores coming this fall?
 
If you wanted a to run superpi at 5.1 ghz with 2666 mhz cas 16 and 467 trfc, a $1000 cpu probably shouldn't have been your first choice.

Running Pi was an example of the speeds. I run a home server with surveillance, Plex for 4 family members, 3D Modeling with Fusion 360 and 3D Printing. I need cores more than I need speed.

I picked up my processor for $600 as compared to what... a $350-400 i7-8700k or i7-8086K?

For someone who takes such an interest in multi core and benching numbers, I wouldn't expect such a sarcastic comment from you. I'm good though, I think I know what I am doing with MY machine.
 
From my google translator skills:

They had a source that managed a 5.5 ghz o/c on a soldered cpu. From what I understand, it was a 6 core (9700k), but still impressive if true.

I just have my doubts that they will be soldered. Who knows, though.

Doesn't Cascade Lake use STIM?
 
From my google translator skills:

They had a source that managed a 5.5 ghz o/c on a soldered cpu. From what I understand, it was a 6 core (9700k), but still impressive if true.

I just have my doubts that they will be soldered. Who knows, though.

8c if temp allows it, 5.5 eh. but STIM mmmmm

I have no idea to be honest :p


Read into this how you want btw :p

my educational guess is that these number must be April 4th, June 6th, June 12th and August 16th :D
how accurate is this guy's leak?
 
:D



He does more than just post leaks


wow all the way from Jan he tweeted that? kk we got FAT chance of 8 cores now, as of STIM/release date since he didn't confirm, probably in at least a few months from now
 
I can't wait to pick up this 8086K 9900K. The rumors about this CPU have been floating around for a while, it MUST be coming out in May June July August! Keep on waiting for that 8-core 155X processor! the longer you wait, the less likely you are to grab one of AMD's offerings...

it's almost like that's what Intel planned.
 
I can't wait to pick up this 8086K 9900K. The rumors about this CPU have been floating around for a while, it MUST be coming out in May June July August! Keep on waiting for that 8-core 155X processor! the longer you wait, the less likely you are to grab one of AMD's offerings...

it's almost like that's what Intel planned.

its rather pathetic they are still doing this because they want you to buy 6 cores cpu. tho a chance of people jumping to ryzen remains regardless of what they choose to do, however people that wish to have intel CPU and not ryzen, will not spend on 6 core if they could get 8.

anyway, until ryzen fix up infinity fabric latency and also allow at least 4.6ghz overclock I will not move to them. AMD got real good offering 16-32cores, great efficiency on consumption which will become even better with zen 2, i just need the latency between ccx to get fixed then it'll be real fast.
 
its rather pathetic they are still doing this because they want you to buy 6 cores cpu. tho a chance of people jumping to ryzen remains regardless of what they choose to do, however people that wish to have intel CPU and not ryzen, will not spend on 6 core if they could get 8.

anyway, until ryzen fix up infinity fabric latency and also allow at least 4.6ghz overclock I will not move to them. AMD got real good offering 16-32cores, great efficiency on consumption which will become even better with zen 2, i just need the latency between ccx to get fixed then it'll be real fast.

I agree. The issue I have is that AMD doesn't seem to think it's a problem, or at least, have not announced any plans for Zen 2 that mitigate it.
 
I agree. The issue I have is that AMD doesn't seem to think it's a problem, or at least, have not announced any plans for Zen 2 that mitigate it.

In their defense, it isn't much of a problem for most workloads, with competitive memory clocks.

I have the cat-bird's position of having an 8700k and 2700X on the same desk. Synthetic deficiencies of one or the other seem to be pretty exaggerated in my experience when it comes to rubber hitting the road. Both will destroy any workload given in short order.
Yes, as you'd expect the 8700k is better at per-core throughput, and yes, the 2700x is better at highly parallel workloads. And both end up at a very similar place overall in most cases, even ones where you'd think one would really pull away. It's rare that one is just massively better in any real scenario.

This is a pretty neat time where you do have real options. Buyers should examine real-world benchmarks closest to their expected usage, which is good advice as always. Zen2 and 9xxx combat could be pretty interesting.
 
Just saw the post on WCCF about the spec leak. I’m having a hard time believing they can run 6-8 cores at 4.7ghz in a 95 watt power band. Seems too good to be true.

If it is true though, it’s starting to feel like the late 90s again when your CPU was replaced by one 20% faster usually in a few months.
 
Just saw the post on WCCF about the spec leak. I’m having a hard time believing they can run 6-8 cores at 4.7ghz in a 95 watt power band. Seems too good to be true.

If it is true though, it’s starting to feel like the late 90s again when your CPU was replaced by one 20% faster usually in a few months.

because of STIM that it might be possible, as solder TIM should be better than delid + liquid metal.
 
because of STIM that it might be possible, as solder TIM should be better than delid + liquid metal.

One can only hope. I'm tired of having to use 240mm AIO for "95 watt" parts. Actually, for us SFF builders it would mean a massive increase in ease of build if we didn't have to delid immediately to get good temps.
 
Just saw the post on WCCF about the spec leak. I’m having a hard time believing they can run 6-8 cores at 4.7ghz in a 95 watt power band. Seems too good to be true.

If it is true though, it’s starting to feel like the late 90s again when your CPU was replaced by one 20% faster usually in a few months.

I think when they get to 8 cores it'll slow down again a bit for mainstream platform. They just need to catch up with AMD in terms of core counts and then it'll become IPC and architecture battle again. 2020 should be a hell of an interesting year for CPUs, unless there's some other delay again.
 
It looks like the Whiskey Lake 14++ rumors are back from the dead, though TPU does a bad job citing the source:
https://hardforum.com/threads/intels-9th-generation-core-family-coffee-lake-refresh.1963540/page-2

The 8/8 core i7 should be very close in performance to the current 6/12 configs, especially with matching cache amount. I suppose you can compare 2x performance of an 8350k to 3x performance of a G5600(probably better than using an 8700k to ensure the simulated 9700k has the clock advantage), ignoring cache sensitive tests.

This looks to be a pretty awesome launch overall!
 
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It looks like the Whiskey Lake 14++ rumors are back from the dead, though TPU does a bad job citing the source:
https://hardforum.com/threads/intels-9th-generation-core-family-coffee-lake-refresh.1963540/page-2

The 8/8 core i7 should be very close in performance to the current 6/12 configs, especially with matching cache amount. I suppose you can compare 2x performance of an 8350k to 3x performance of a G5600(or just an 8700k/8086k, duh, long day at work), ignoring cache sensitive tests.

This looks to be a pretty awesome launch overall!

I'll wisely wait for Zen 2 and 10nm Icelake though. Don't like the idea of buying another 14nm series. Not that there's any urgent need in anything more than what I have for pure gaming either.
 
I'll wisely wait for Zen 2 and 10nm Icelake though. Don't like the idea of buying another 14nm series. Not that there's any urgent need in anything more than what I have for pure gaming either.

sucks to be me i waited from ivy era till now had to grab one. since 8 c likely be used in z370 then its well worth it.
 
I am such a dork. 2x performance of an 8350k running at 4.5Ghz vs an 8700k running at 4.3Ghz (NOT 3.7Ghz as shown)

Prime 1024:
9700?: 120s
8700k: 118s

H.264:
9700?: 34s
8700k: 42s

H.265:
9700?: 79s
8700k: 99s

z-zip c:
9700?: 43000 mips
8700k: 41000 mips

z-zip d:
9700?: 38000 mips
8700k: 38000 mips

Java:
9700?: 567
8700k: 431

MySQL:
9700?: 217k TPS
8700k: 183k TPS


Blender:
9700?: 292s
8700k: 302s

Cinebench:
9700?: 1528
8700k: 1438

Euler 3D
9700?: 37s
8700k: 56s

So it looks like the 9700k would edge out on most apps and pull away on some like JAVA. Things to consider are Cache size and latency of the 8-core.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i3_8350K/
 
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I can't wait to pick up this 8086K 9900K. The rumors about this CPU have been floating around for a while, it MUST be coming out in May June July August! Keep on waiting for that 8-core 155X processor! the longer you wait, the less likely you are to grab one of AMD's offerings...

it's almost like that's what Intel planned.

FYI 6-core CoffeeLake is #1 in sales...
 
was about to post this. with the high frequency turbo, a good chance to confirm intel might be using STIM this time around which align with leaks from weeks ago. i wonder how much difference is STIM vs delid + liquid metal?

200--400MHz?
 
200--400MHz?

Pardon my ignorance, but which is better, STIM or delid+liquid metal? I though they were pretty equivelant. And what what is the difference in clocks between paste and the better of those two? I was thinking the extra speed was from the 14++ architecture or is this still unconfirmed?
 
FYI 6-core CoffeeLake is #1 in sales...

True, but I can't help but think the R5 2600x/2600 would bump it out of the top spot if they were combined into 1 SKU as they are #2 and #3. The 8086k is #29 and the 8700 is MIA, so those are not really affecting i7 8th gen totals.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but which is better, STIM or delid+liquid metal? I though they were pretty equivelant. And what what is the difference in clocks between paste and the better of those two? I was thinking the extra speed was from the 14++ architecture or is this still unconfirmed?

Solder will almost always be better thermally, coming at the cost of somewhat increased susceptibility to thermal cycling issues (can potentially crack vs. liquid metal which can flex without wear). Both are great of course.

From what I've seen the delid doesn't translate into much improved clocks in spite of the significant temp delta, although what "much improved" means varies from person to person. Those going for every last ounce will of course do so, but for others, an extra 100 or 200 MHz is not a big deal on a chip already running at ~ 5 GHz.
 
200--400MHz?

isnt that too much? maybe just 100mhz. well there are no cases prior to this one previously we all had soldered, or all delided. we went from solder to delid + LM but of different generation, never had a gen where we go from LM+ delid to solder.

we can see a good comparison say 8600k vs 9600k or something which will be LM + delid vs solder. assuming its similar silicon grade from SL maybe then its good to see just how much solder is.
 
Solder will almost always be better thermally

No, liquid metal is better than solder. Derbauer has stated this several times in the past, I can't remember in which video so I just pasted the most recent statement about it. The difference is very small, so of course you don't have to bother with delidding. But to the enthusiast population who already delids all their CPUs, there is no performance gain if Intel decides to go back to soldering. Just a convenience gain.
 
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