Intel re entering the HEDT game.

This PC is a Z590 chipset and I started it about 1.5 years ago with a 10th gen. But to utilize PCI 4.0 with the m.2 slot you need an 11th gen. So I just got one of those last week and dropped it in this.
 
I don't think I am ready to switch back to Intel any time soon, but I am hopefull - as you suggest - that this might put more pressure on AMD to bring back non-pro Threadrippers.

I wouldn't mind a Zen3 Threadripper with some of that stacked 3D Cache to drop intro my TRX40 board as a drop in upgrade.

That said, it is probably too late for that with Zen4 right around the corner, and Zen4 would likely force me to replace my $950 motherboard :(
 
DooKey said:
It's not the first time they've maintained motherboard compatibility for the tick and tock.
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Not the first but when it happened with 10/11 I figured it was a fluke, just one of those odd occurrences. But to do it twice? The big question is going to be what happens when Gen 14 shows up they going to keep compatibility?
I mean yeah they are starting to do it but its not the norm for them and they don't really talk about it in the same way AMD has so its still baffling to me when they do.
 
This news seem to about not putting pressure for the non-pro Threadripper no ?

Notably, those will not be marketed as Core-X series but rather Xeon W3400/2400 so probably targeting the same consumer space as Threadripper PRO.

There were some rumors of maybe they would go back to have some RaptorLake-X and that is going against it. Has for the retro compatibility, it was always known and why people were talking in a 5800/x5900x vs a 12600/12700K debate that on AMD side you were buying into a dying platform, because it was almost certain that buying a 12600K would let you put a Raptor Lake at the minimum in it.
 
LukeTbk said:
This news seem to about not putting pressure for the non-pro Threadripper no ?

Notably, those will not be marketed as Core-X series but rather Xeon W3400/2400 so probably targeting the same consumer space as Threadripper PRO.

There were some rumors of maybe they would go back to have some RaptorLake-X and that is going against it. Has for the retro compatibility, it was always known and why people were talking in a 5800/x5900x vs a 12600/12700K debate that on AMD side you were buying into a dying platform, because it was almost certain that buying a 12600K would let you put a Raptor Lake at the minimum in it.
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Oh yeah, it's a pipedream for sure, but we can all dream. I do not like my existing TR Pro's, they are hot and noisy, and that is more the fault of Lenovo than it is AMD for sure, but as AMD locked them to Lenovo they get the blame here too. Assuming that Intel's platform can bring the performance numbers to match or beat AMD here I will switch back in a heartbeat, and probably many others will do. If that happens then AMD may be forced to find ways to lower the costs on the Threadripper lineup and the easiest way to do that is often to ditch the OEM, or cut features, reintroducing the non-pro lineup could do that. But this only happens if Intel manages to bring something meaningful to the table to put pressure on AMD which would be good because I really want a viable alternative to buying more Threadripper Pro units. Unless of course Lenovo actually fixes the cooling solution on their towers the existing one is just not appropriate for an office environment.
 
LukeTbk said:
That a timed windows lock, you can buy Threadripper pro now:
https://www.amazon.ca/AMD-Ryzen-Threadripper-PRO-3995WX/dp/B08V5HPXVY

Will probably be the same again.
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Probably but the existing options for SWRX8 motherboards are very small, basically limited to the Supermicro offerings.
Looking things over if I had to get another one right now, I would be more interested in a system with an EPYC 7713p instead of a 3995WX, I have way more options there and better support.
 
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Lakados said:
Oh yeah, it's a pipedream for sure, but we can all dream. I do not like my existing TR Pro's, they are hot and noisy, and that is more the fault of Lenovo than it is AMD for sure, but as AMD locked them to Lenovo they get the blame here too. Assuming that Intel's platform can bring the performance numbers to match or beat AMD here I will switch back in a heartbeat, and probably many others will do. If that happens then AMD may be forced to find ways to lower the costs on the Threadripper lineup and the easiest way to do that is often to ditch the OEM, or cut features, reintroducing the non-pro lineup could do that. But this only happens if Intel manages to bring something meaningful to the table to put pressure on AMD which would be good because I really want a viable alternative to buying more Threadripper Pro units. Unless of course Lenovo actually fixes the cooling solution on their towers the existing one is just not appropriate for an office environment.
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Did lenovo use non-standard cooler mounts or something? I'd be tempted to look into mounting some other cooler on those, if they bothered me.
 
Lakados said:
Probably but the existing options for SWRX8 motherboards are very small, basically limited to the Supermicro offerings.
Looking things over if I had to get another one right now, I would be more interested in a system with an EPYC 7713p instead of a 3995WX, I have way more options there and better support.
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I like the total overkill of the Threadripper Pro PCIe lanes. But that's just about the only thing I like about them. The price is ridiculous, and most have way more cores than I'd ever need, clocked significantly lower than their consumer counterparts.

All I want is a no-compromises system. You know, get the best per core performance of consumer models, in a system with more PCIe lanes and some pro features like IOMMU/VT-d and ECC RAM.

I don't even care about throwing a boatload of cores at the problem.

Is that really too much to ask?
 
Lakados said:
SWRX8 motherboards are very small, basically limited to the Supermicro offerings.
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Seem limited but there the ASUS one:
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/Workstation/Pro-WS-WRX80E-SAGE-SE-WIFI/

You are probably right, because I think it is the only one I always saw when I see a SWRX8 workstation type build, it is a beauty too:

fwebp
https://dlcdnwebimgs.asus.com/gain/05a87f0b-f080-4680-86a3-95ddff608a31//fwebp
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Did lenovo use non-standard cooler mounts or something? I'd be tempted to look into mounting some other cooler on those, if they bothered me.
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I can't tell the cooler block on them is huge and the mounting setup not readily accessable.
1653680199994.png


One of the biggest problems is the thing is basically a wind tunnel, a single 120 up front, those two noisy ass beasts inside, followed by a single 120 in the back.
There are many others who have asked if the cooling bracket is standard or if other options are available and those questions get shut down fast and hard from Lenovo.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I like the total overkill of the Threadripper Pro PCIe lanes. But that's just about the only thing I like about them. The price is ridiculous, and most have way more cores than I'd ever need, clocked significantly lower than their consumer counterparts.

All I want is a no-compromises system. You know, get the best per core performance of consumer models, in a system with more PCIe lanes and some pro features like IOMMU/VT-d and ECC RAM.

I don't even care about throwing a boatload of cores at the problem.

Is that really too much to ask?
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Probably.... But if all you need is the lanes I have a Dell running a 7551P that is looking at an early retirement that I can keep you updated on.
 
Lakados said:
Probably.... But if all you need is the lanes I have a Dell running a 7551P that is looking at an early retirement that I can keep you updated on.
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That would make for a great upgrade for my server, in a compatible supermicro board. Only reason I haven't pulled the trigger on something like this is that every time I have priced out buying 256GB+ of ECC DDR4 RAM, it blows out my budget. That's kind of why I upgraded through Xeon E5-xxxx v2's and stopped there. Any further and I need to re-buy all of my RAM in DDR4 :(

That, and the server is doing its job still. It has lost some performance due to Spectre/Meltdown mitigations, but it isn't really anything that impacts my use case though. It uses more power than a newer system would though.

Some day...
 
I hope Intel takes this seriously. The non-Pro TR motherboard options are kind of garbage unless you're running some super specific CPU-only workload that doesn't use a ton of RAM. If your use doesn't match that, then you have to triple your budget and go with Epyc, or stick with Intel and accept the lower CPU performance.

Maybe with Intel's next gen HEDT, we'll once again be able to get good CPU performance AND good motherboards. A guy can dream, right?
 
Thunderdolt said:
I hope Intel takes this seriously. The non-Pro TR motherboard options are kind of garbage unless you're running some super specific CPU-only workload that doesn't use a ton of RAM. If your use doesn't match that, then you have to triple your budget and go with Epyc, or stick with Intel and accept the lower CPU performance.

Maybe with Intel's next gen HEDT, we'll once again be able to get good CPU performance AND good motherboards. A guy can dream, right?
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RAM capacity is governed by the RAM controller on the CPU, isn't it? So I imagine this isn't a motherboard constraint.

How much RAM do you need btw? My ROG Zenith II Extreme Alpha officially supports up to 256GB of RAM, which should be extreme overkill for any non-professional application, and for a professional application, the PRO model would seem appropriate, wouldn't it? :p

And that's based on DDR4 maxing out at 32GB modules at the time of launch. Now that there are 64GB modules, I wouldn't be surprised if you can get the platform to hit 512GB. Might take some trial and error to find compatible modules though, as I doubt the QVL lists have been updated.

I'm curious for which home application is amount of RAM is insufficient.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
RAM capacity is governed by the RAM controller on the CPU, isn't it? So I imagine this isn't a motherboard constraint.
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If I remember right, non-Pro TR is neutered to 256GB. That's the same as Intel, so it isn't a negative but it isn't a plus either.

Zarathustra[H] said:
for a professional application, the PRO model would seem appropriate, wouldn't it? :p
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Unfortunately, no. Consumer stuff rebranded as "pro" generally means 2-3x the price for 0% more actual "pro" benefits like reliability and stability. And for that price jump, simply buying a second non-Pro machine enters the calculation.

Zarathustra[H] said:
I'm curious for which home application is amount of RAM is insufficient.
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I occasionally run into datasets that benefit from 384-512GB. Those get run on my big dual Xeon box since the desktop systems are all 128GB or 256GB (Intel's limit). There's also the occasional render that goes OOC. 8GB x 10 GPUs = 80GB just for the overage. This is no more unrealistic of a home application than even having a HEDT CPU.
 
Thunderdolt said:
If I remember right, non-Pro TR is neutered to 256GB. That's the same as Intel, so it isn't a negative but it isn't a plus either.


Unfortunately, no. Consumer stuff rebranded as "pro" generally means 2-3x the price for 0% more actual "pro" benefits like reliability and stability. And for that price jump, simply buying a second non-Pro machine enters the calculation.



I occasionally run into datasets that benefit from 384-512GB. Those get run on my big dual Xeon box since the desktop systems are all 128GB or 256GB (Intel's limit). There's also the occasional render that goes OOC. 8GB x 10 GPUs = 80GB just for the overage. This is no more unrealistic of a home application than even having a HEDT CPU.
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I'm sure there is some of that "enterprise/pro price penalty" but here are also real reasons for it.

One of the ways the Threadripper Pro (essentially a rebranded Epyc) gets more ram capacity is by running double the number of RAM channels, this results in double the traces in the package, double the pins and double the traces on the motherboard used for RAM. They also double the number of PCIe lanes, again doubling the number of package traces, pins and motherboard traces for PCIe lanes.

This makes things a lot more complex. As I'm sure you've seen, the TRX40 consumer threadripper socket is a little intimidating as it is. The Pro models are likely more so, and with complexity comes cost.

There is probably also binning at play. Chips (or chipsets) that have non-functional PCIe lanes likely get binned for consumer Threadrippers, and those which are fully intact get more expensive bins as TR Pro's or EPYC's.

The improving yields over time might also be partially to blame for Consumer TR being less interesting to them now. They may have fewer lower bins they need to use.

I think you are right, that the Pro penalty is at play here, but there are legitimate reasons for the added cost as well.

Binning is the norm in the industry though, and one of the reasons we have affordable consumer parts is that enterprise and professional users pay more for some unusual features they use, whether they are intentionally disabled or binned.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I don't think I am ready to switch back to Intel any time soon, but I am hopefull - as you suggest - that this might put more pressure on AMD to bring back non-pro Threadrippers.

I wouldn't mind a Zen3 Threadripper with some of that stacked 3D Cache to drop intro my TRX40 board as a drop in upgrade.

That said, it is probably too late for that with Zen4 right around the corner, and Zen4 would likely force me to replace my $950 motherboard :(
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You didn’t have to spend $950 on a motherboard…
 
Randall Stephens said:
You didn’t have to spend $950 on a motherboard…
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I had a cheaper one at first, a Gigabyte Aourus TRX40 Master. It burnt out two Threadripper CPU's on me. I RMA'd it, but Gigabyte sent it back with "no issue found". In frustration I went out and bought what I could find locally to get my system up and running, and that happened to be a Asus ROG Zenith II Extreme Alpha at MicroCenter. It was literally the only one in stock anywhere.

Only later did it come out that Gigabyte had a confirmed issue with the power delivery in their initial revision TRX40 motherboards. The second time I RMA'd the motherboard they replaced it for me, but now it is just sitting here unused, since I have the Asus board.

I lost tons of time and money and had lots of frustration due to that god awful experiwnce with Gigabyte. The Asus board, just like my previous Asus board (P9x79 WS) has been perfect - however.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I had a cheaper one at first, a Gigabyte Aourus TRX40 Master. It burnt out two Threadripper CPU's on me. I RMA'd it, but Gigabyte sent it back with "no issue found". In frustration I went out and bought what I could find locally to get my system up and running, and that happened to be a Asus ROG Zenith II Extreme Alpha at MicroCenter. It was literally the only one in stock anywhere.

Only later did it come out that Gigabyte had a confirmed issue with the power delivery in their initial revision TRX40 motherboards. The second time I RMA'd the motherboard they replaced it for me, but now it is just sitting here unused, since I have the Asus board.

I lost tons of time and money and had lots of frustration due to that god awful experiwnce with Gigabyte. The Asus board, just like my previous Asus board (P9x79 WS) has been perfect - however.
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That’s bullshit. I’m in the phase of life where I don’t want to deal with rma anything, so I usually buy something with the feeling that if it breaks, it's easier to replace than RMA. I did have my LGB 21480 show up broken in the box. They offered a discount, but for $1750, I want a pristine one, so I feel your pain.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I had a cheaper one at first, a Gigabyte Aourus TRX40 Master. It burnt out two Threadripper CPU's on me. I RMA'd it, but Gigabyte sent it back with "no issue found". In frustration I went out and bought what I could find locally to get my system up and running, and that happened to be a Asus ROG Zenith II Extreme Alpha at MicroCenter. It was literally the only one in stock anywhere.

Only later did it come out that Gigabyte had a confirmed issue with the power delivery in their initial revision TRX40 motherboards. The second time I RMA'd the motherboard they replaced it for me, but now it is just sitting here unused, since I have the Asus board.

I lost tons of time and money and had lots of frustration due to that god awful experiwnce with Gigabyte. The Asus board, just like my previous Asus board (P9x79 WS) has been perfect - however.
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Honestly its experiences like this that make me dread building systems. I build them for others all the time, never an issue. Build mine and 2 weeks in my cooler will fail, or one of my ram chips is bad, or I have a defective MB my personal builds are straight up cursed and I hate dealing with RMA’s. I am seriously considering just getting a laptop my next go around and finding a new hobby, I’m sure what ever Alienware builds with a 4070 and a 1440p screen would suit my gaming and 3D printing needs more than well enough.

But yeah out of all the manufacturers I’ve dealt with Asus has been the least problematic to deal with. The one time they sent me a bad board they were actually nice to deal with for the RMA (bad bios wouldn’t post).
 
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Raptor better add more PCIe 5.0 lanes, I'd like at least dual x4 NVMe drives and a full x16 slot.

I hope the HEDT is more like the prior series but I can't imagine how far Intel can exceed their current offerings... jam a bunch of P-cores and PCIe, and triple/quad channel RAM again? Then again if they really are only doing Xeons and not Core-X I'm probably wayyy off-base.
 
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