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[Tripod]MajorPayne;1036362361 said:Which is why, when indexed for inflation, it becomes obvious that the "middle class" hasn't seen an increase in real wages (not nominal dollars, REAL purchasing power) since the 70's. It's pretty easy to spot the trends when the obfuscating influences of steady, low inflation coupled with CPI increases that beat inflation are removed.
[Tripod]MajorPayne;1036362276 said:The bottom line is that American companies are willing to pay the wages that their employees demand -- when it meets the market's fair wage as well, for example, for educated workers like engineers. Go find me an engineer who works for minimum wage. Oh wait, you can't, because they have an education that makes them valuable and they do very specialized, skilled work.
People just need to stop deluding themselves about the reality of the situation. We are driving extremely lucrative business opportunities offshore by taxing them to death and having the unions fool unskilled laborers into believing they're worth $50k+ a year plus pensions.
I don't blame them. If they opened a factory in the US, within 6 months it would unionize and the workers would demand $30/hour + Full benefits and retirement. Their job, screwing two pieces of plastic together.
In reality it a much more fundamental issue and there are no solutions for developed nations, the world is equalizing and it isn't going to equalize at our level, we are going to meet somewhere in between. This means good times for developing nations like India/China while they rise and pain for us as we sink.
I have personally seen a union put a company I worked for out of business....
Do you have any idea why a stock radio costs so much for a vehicle? The build cost by the time it gets to the end of the line is somewhere around $200. And most of it is automated.
Part of the reason is because the union workers that put the radios in the shipping boxes get paid $20+ /hr + full benefits.
You have the UAW to thank for that.
And guess what? It is nearly impossible to fire somebody who is part of a union.. even if they call in sick m ultiple days a wekk, don't do the job they are supposedly being paid to do, sabatoge equipment, etc. All that happens is they get a slap on the wrist.
Also, if a non-union employee ends up doing a job that a union employee is being paid to do but refuses to do... the union employee can then file a grievance and get paid a ridiculous amount of extra pay.
So yeah... unions pretty much suck.
Get off your high horse. You have been brainwashed by the machinations of the Marxist media and government. Those CEOs actually worked to get where they were and earn that wage because they are the best and brightest. The GREED is from the envious people who expect $30/hr, pension, healthcare and 2 months of vacation for screwing two pieces of plastic together. That's greed. If companies solely catered to these people, they would go out of business. Oh look, that's exactly what happened to GM and Chrysler - go figure. This is why America is losing jobs to foreign countries.But it's okay for a few CEO's and executives to pull in millions of dollars per year while everyone else makes barely enough to avoid poverty.
I'm sorry, but it's this idea that's played a big part in the economic situation today. In the last thirty years we've seen the dismantling of America's entire manufacturing and industrial infrastructure, which was the backbone of the economy. Millions of jobs were sent overseas and replaced with lower-paying service industry jobs so a few execs could afford more mansions and Ferraris. The pay of CEO's went from 40 times what a regular employee makes to over 500 times. Hell, $30/hr isn't even a lot of money. American's actually make less today than they did in the 1970's, which is the last time the middle class got a raise.
People deserve to be paid a decent wage, not just paycheck-to-paycheck. They may only be screwing to pieces of plastic together, but if they weren't there to do it, then that company couldn't produce and turn a profit, now could it? This idea that only CEO's and executives deserve to be paid decently needs to stop, because everyone's labor is important.
Snowdog, for all your talk about economy, you are pretty much just paranoid-stricken. Taking over the world? I lol'd.
lol soo rightFixed..
Thanks for helping kick-starting the American economy, Intel.
Otherwise known as British Leyland
A little bit of hyperbole maybe, but China will soon be the uncontested economic superpower, they continue making long term strategic moves in resource acquisition, technology acquisition, and wealth building.
Just look at US debt and the trade deficit (there hasn't been a trade surplus since the 70's):
Exports are critical for wealth building and everything we use is an imported from China. We still get a small cut on some made in China products where engineering is done locally like say a Motorola Cellphone, but HTC will keep gobbling market share and then none of the cash will stay in the US.
The top US exports are Aircraft, Semiconductors, Pharmaceuticals, Automotive. China is targeting them all.
Unless the trade deficit can be reversed (and there is no signs that will happen) we face a continual erosion in the standard of living. You may want to argue that we have had increasing standard of living even with a trade deficit, but that has been done by going into debt to cover the trade imbalance and recently covered with an economic bubble where no real wealth was created.
If anyone expects a reversal, I would like to hear how they think it is going to happen.
Totally agreed. If Walmart's CEO gave up 100% of their salary (including benefits and incentives) and worked pro-bono, they could give every single employee a $15 raise.
Per year.
What does that even mean? There are some 2 million people worldwide that work at Walmart in some capacity. So you're saying that the CEO (of whom you do not even know the person's name...Michael Duke incidentally), who makes $35 million a year would give each person $15 in a one time disbursement. That's hardly a "raise" as you put it.
Incidentally (and I know you don't care since you're just bashing American corporations), Walmart actually lets you buy stock at 15% below cost if you work for the company. So, essentially, they already give you that "raise" if you take advantage of it.
But this has nothing to do with Walmart, this has everything to do with protecting unionized labor, which while important in the early 1900's, hasn't done much since the 60's except hurt the American worker in the global economy.
Standard of living can only be improved with technology. Otherwise, you will have to settle for the internationally equalized standard of living, unless you're at the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy.
I have personally seen a union put a company I worked for out of business....
Do you have any idea why a stock radio costs so much for a vehicle? The build cost by the time it gets to the end of the line is somewhere around $200. And most of it is automated.
Part of the reason is because the union workers that put the radios in the shipping boxes get paid $20+ /hr + full benefits.
You have the UAW to thank for that.
And guess what? It is nearly impossible to fire somebody who is part of a union.. even if they call in sick m ultiple days a wekk, don't do the job they are supposedly being paid to do, sabatoge equipment, etc. All that happens is they get a slap on the wrist.
Also, if a non-union employee ends up doing a job that a union employee is being paid to do but refuses to do... the union employee can then file a grievance and get paid a ridiculous amount of extra pay.
So yeah... unions pretty much suck.
too much corruption though...after clinton opened up trading with vietnam in the 90's there was a huge rush of american money into vietnam, a few years later they all pulled out because they were getting nickel and dimed for everything.
(i'm vietnamese)
if they did this you would whine about the high prices of intel chips
too much corruption though...after clinton opened up trading with vietnam in the 90's there was a huge rush of american money into vietnam, a few years later they all pulled out because they were getting nickel and dimed for everything.
(i'm vietnamese)
I don't blame them. If they opened a factory in the US, within 6 months it would unionize and the workers would demand $30/hour + Full benefits and retirement. Their job, screwing two pieces of plastic together.
So you think its a great thing when American companies build factories outside the US... because people here may dare to demand a living wage, good working conditions, and a secure future? I'll give the right wing credit for being honest about one thing, you make no attempt to mask your disdain for your fellow man. I suppose once this finally becomes a serfdom, and most people are forced into abject poverty and will work for next to nothing, then it will be OK to bring the factories back ehh?
Damn straight, Every American should be striving to work for minimum wage with no pension.
I hope you are doing your part.
toyota's most productive plant is in the united states
This is the exact same Hell I'm going through at my workplace, except it's unionized government work. The same people calling in sick every Friday, getting paid sick time every Friday, not doing the job they're getting paid for, disappearing for half the day, yapping/texting on their cell phones all day, grossly abusing the equipment they rely on, and on and on...guess what? It is nearly impossible to fire somebody who is part of a union.. even if they call in sick multiple days a week, don't do the job they are supposedly being paid to do, sabotage equipment, etc. All that happens is they get a slap on the wrist.
So yeah... unions pretty much suck.
Also its most expensive to operate. Did you forget to factor in the amount of money Toyota saves for not having to import/ship the cars in? Did you factor in the public relations benefits? Thought not.
So you think its a great thing when American companies build factories outside the US... because people here may dare to demand a living wage, good working conditions, and a secure future? I'll give the right wing credit for being honest about one thing, you make no attempt to mask your disdain for your fellow man. I suppose once this finally becomes a serfdom, and most people are forced into abject poverty and will work for next to nothing, then it will be OK to bring the factories back ehh?
Spoken like a true marxist. Simplifying capitalism and global interrelated economies to serfdom and disdain for fellow man.
And how do you expect anyone to live and support a family in the USA on anything less than $30.00 per hour? It can't be done!
Then you obviously was in the wrong union. The one I was in was not like that at all.So I used to be employeed by a Union.. I Got paid 25+ an hour to do the same job I was doing before that at 12/hr.. Difference is that when I was with the union I wasnt expected to work as hard..
In what area of the country? Backwoods Kentucky where it costs $10 and a bottle of moonshine a week to live?? 30/hr in definitely NOT a sports car and weekend home here...MAYBE if you BOTH make 30 and hour and have no kids.That was a decade ago.. Now between me & my wife we barely clear 25/hr combined.. Were still not only surviving, but were doing OK. So no 30/hr is not a living wage.. Its a Sports car & weekend home wage..
You can live on a lot less than that...
And how do you expect anyone to live and support a family in the USA on anything less than $30.00 per hour? It can't be done!
Uhh... $30/hour is a lot more than MOST people make right out of college, and more than a lot of people with only a HS degree *EVER* make.
And they raise families just fine.
See sig.
ok...you wouldn't even be contributing to the creation of american jobs anyway if they built a plant here