Intel Opens $1 Billion Chip Factory in Vietnam

PersonalJ

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[Tripod]MajorPayne;1036362361 said:
Which is why, when indexed for inflation, it becomes obvious that the "middle class" hasn't seen an increase in real wages (not nominal dollars, REAL purchasing power) since the 70's. It's pretty easy to spot the trends when the obfuscating influences of steady, low inflation coupled with CPI increases that beat inflation are removed.

Newsflash... The post world war 2 economic boom was a result of most of the world being a massive heap of rubble. The days where laborers would be paid a lot are gone and never coming back.
 

Snowdog

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[Tripod]MajorPayne;1036362276 said:
The bottom line is that American companies are willing to pay the wages that their employees demand -- when it meets the market's fair wage as well, for example, for educated workers like engineers. Go find me an engineer who works for minimum wage. Oh wait, you can't, because they have an education that makes them valuable and they do very specialized, skilled work.
People just need to stop deluding themselves about the reality of the situation. We are driving extremely lucrative business opportunities offshore by taxing them to death and having the unions fool unskilled laborers into believing they're worth $50k+ a year plus pensions.

The real bottom line is that Fabs employ plenty of engineers, and they can get them in China/India/Vietnam for a fraction of the cost. We can sit around and complain that it is unions or taxes doing us in but that is blowhard BS masking the real issues.

In reality it a much more fundamental issue and there are no solutions for developed nations, the world is equalizing and it isn't going to equalize at our level, we are going to meet somewhere in between. This means good times for developing nations like India/China while they rise and pain for us as we sink.

Corporations in search of greater profits have accelerated the equalization by giving China everything they could possibly want in exchange for access to cheap labor pool. Chinas communist government insists on access to technology before gaining access. With forced tech transfers, industrial espionage, they stop being just a manufacturers and are quickly becoming the designers and eliminating the Corporations that originally partnered with them. HTC, Hauwie, ZTE will soon be putting out of business the companies that partnered with them for short term profits.

The USA will become more and more divided while ideologues yell about minutia, While China continues uninterrupted in it's plan for world domination.

By all mean keep fighting about Taxes and Unions while letting China have everything it wants, it is far to late to change anything now. Better to be distracted while they take over.
 

travbrad

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I don't blame them. If they opened a factory in the US, within 6 months it would unionize and the workers would demand $30/hour + Full benefits and retirement. Their job, screwing two pieces of plastic together.

So what you're saying is if the U.S. is to solve our unemployment problem, we need to become a 3rd world country? ;)
 

travbrad

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In reality it a much more fundamental issue and there are no solutions for developed nations, the world is equalizing and it isn't going to equalize at our level, we are going to meet somewhere in between. This means good times for developing nations like India/China while they rise and pain for us as we sink.

Somewhat related to this is also the explosion of our (human) population. We have more and more people trying to get by on less resources. Technology can only help so much.
 

CanesVenetici

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I have personally seen a union put a company I worked for out of business....

Do you have any idea why a stock radio costs so much for a vehicle? The build cost by the time it gets to the end of the line is somewhere around $200. And most of it is automated.

Part of the reason is because the union workers that put the radios in the shipping boxes get paid $20+ /hr + full benefits.

You have the UAW to thank for that.

And guess what? It is nearly impossible to fire somebody who is part of a union.. even if they call in sick m ultiple days a wekk, don't do the job they are supposedly being paid to do, sabatoge equipment, etc. All that happens is they get a slap on the wrist.

Also, if a non-union employee ends up doing a job that a union employee is being paid to do but refuses to do... the union employee can then file a grievance and get paid a ridiculous amount of extra pay.

So yeah... unions pretty much suck.

That just means that company did a shit job of negotiating during the writing of the labor contract. Our wages are good for the area, but not great. I averaged 64-68 hours a week to bring home what I did.
Now I'm out of a job. Why? Not because of our union, because the guy running the show wanted me gone. Sounds like bullshit, but they fucked with my numbers and modified my log sheets to frame me for some quality bullshit that they've never once proved.
So yeah, I'm kinda glad to be a part of my union. At least someone is fighting for me.
I look at the want ads and classifieds around here and unless you have a cdl or are a nurse there is nothing here. And I've already looked at what it would take to get a cdl.
I've had my arbitration, and am now waiting for the results.

Not all unions are bad. I know we bust our asses on a daily basis working on machinery that is 20-30-40 years old and beat to hell.

If the auto industry was stupid enough to give those concessions then that's something they have to eventually deal with.
 

sleepeeg3

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But it's okay for a few CEO's and executives to pull in millions of dollars per year while everyone else makes barely enough to avoid poverty.

I'm sorry, but it's this idea that's played a big part in the economic situation today. In the last thirty years we've seen the dismantling of America's entire manufacturing and industrial infrastructure, which was the backbone of the economy. Millions of jobs were sent overseas and replaced with lower-paying service industry jobs so a few execs could afford more mansions and Ferraris. The pay of CEO's went from 40 times what a regular employee makes to over 500 times. Hell, $30/hr isn't even a lot of money. American's actually make less today than they did in the 1970's, which is the last time the middle class got a raise.

People deserve to be paid a decent wage, not just paycheck-to-paycheck. They may only be screwing to pieces of plastic together, but if they weren't there to do it, then that company couldn't produce and turn a profit, now could it? This idea that only CEO's and executives deserve to be paid decently needs to stop, because everyone's labor is important.
Get off your high horse. You have been brainwashed by the machinations of the Marxist media and government. Those CEOs actually worked to get where they were and earn that wage because they are the best and brightest. The GREED is from the envious people who expect $30/hr, pension, healthcare and 2 months of vacation for screwing two pieces of plastic together. That's greed. If companies solely catered to these people, they would go out of business. Oh look, that's exactly what happened to GM and Chrysler - go figure. This is why America is losing jobs to foreign countries.

The reality is, it's a global economy and others are willing to do this easy ass work for less. If you expect more money, you need to either become more skilled or work harder.
 

Cyrilix

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Snowdog, for all your talk about economy, you are pretty much just paranoid-stricken. Taking over the world? I lol'd.
 

Snowdog

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Snowdog, for all your talk about economy, you are pretty much just paranoid-stricken. Taking over the world? I lol'd.

A little bit of hyperbole maybe, but China will soon be the uncontested economic superpower, they continue making long term strategic moves in resource acquisition, technology acquisition, and wealth building.

Just look at US debt and the trade deficit (there hasn't been a trade surplus since the 70's):

Exports are critical for wealth building and everything we use is an imported from China. We still get a small cut on some made in China products where engineering is done locally like say a Motorola Cellphone, but HTC will keep gobbling market share and then none of the cash will stay in the US.

The top US exports are Aircraft, Semiconductors, Pharmaceuticals, Automotive. China is targeting them all.

Unless the trade deficit can be reversed (and there is no signs that will happen) we face a continual erosion in the standard of living. You may want to argue that we have had increasing standard of living even with a trade deficit, but that has been done by going into debt to cover the trade imbalance and recently covered with an economic bubble where no real wealth was created.

If anyone expects a reversal, I would like to hear how they think it is going to happen.
 

Cyrilix

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A little bit of hyperbole maybe, but China will soon be the uncontested economic superpower, they continue making long term strategic moves in resource acquisition, technology acquisition, and wealth building.

Just look at US debt and the trade deficit (there hasn't been a trade surplus since the 70's):

Exports are critical for wealth building and everything we use is an imported from China. We still get a small cut on some made in China products where engineering is done locally like say a Motorola Cellphone, but HTC will keep gobbling market share and then none of the cash will stay in the US.

The top US exports are Aircraft, Semiconductors, Pharmaceuticals, Automotive. China is targeting them all.

Unless the trade deficit can be reversed (and there is no signs that will happen) we face a continual erosion in the standard of living. You may want to argue that we have had increasing standard of living even with a trade deficit, but that has been done by going into debt to cover the trade imbalance and recently covered with an economic bubble where no real wealth was created.

If anyone expects a reversal, I would like to hear how they think it is going to happen.

Standard of living can only be improved with technology. Otherwise, you will have to settle for the internationally equalized standard of living, unless you're at the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy.
 

kirbyrj

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Totally agreed. If Walmart's CEO gave up 100% of their salary (including benefits and incentives) and worked pro-bono, they could give every single employee a $15 raise.








Per year.

What does that even mean? There are some 2 million people worldwide that work at Walmart in some capacity. So you're saying that the CEO (of whom you do not even know the person's name...Michael Duke incidentally), who makes $35 million a year would give each person $15 in a one time disbursement. That's hardly a "raise" as you put it.

Incidentally (and I know you don't care since you're just bashing American corporations), Walmart actually lets you buy stock at 15% below cost if you work for the company. So, essentially, they already give you that "raise" if you take advantage of it.

But this has nothing to do with Walmart, this has everything to do with protecting unionized labor, which while important in the early 1900's, hasn't done much since the 60's except hurt the American worker in the global economy.
 

KatalDT

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What does that even mean? There are some 2 million people worldwide that work at Walmart in some capacity. So you're saying that the CEO (of whom you do not even know the person's name...Michael Duke incidentally), who makes $35 million a year would give each person $15 in a one time disbursement. That's hardly a "raise" as you put it.

Incidentally (and I know you don't care since you're just bashing American corporations), Walmart actually lets you buy stock at 15% below cost if you work for the company. So, essentially, they already give you that "raise" if you take advantage of it.

But this has nothing to do with Walmart, this has everything to do with protecting unionized labor, which while important in the early 1900's, hasn't done much since the 60's except hurt the American worker in the global economy.

I kinda hoped it would be obvious that I was shooting him down... :( I'm saddened that you thought anybody would think that a CEO taking 0 pay to give all his employees $15 a year would be helpful to anybody.
 

Snowdog

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Standard of living can only be improved with technology. Otherwise, you will have to settle for the internationally equalized standard of living, unless you're at the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy.

So we can keep improving standard of living while we keep going further in debt, if the Chinese invent more gadgets? ;)
 

1/2 bent

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I have personally seen a union put a company I worked for out of business....

Do you have any idea why a stock radio costs so much for a vehicle? The build cost by the time it gets to the end of the line is somewhere around $200. And most of it is automated.

Part of the reason is because the union workers that put the radios in the shipping boxes get paid $20+ /hr + full benefits.

You have the UAW to thank for that.

And guess what? It is nearly impossible to fire somebody who is part of a union.. even if they call in sick m ultiple days a wekk, don't do the job they are supposedly being paid to do, sabatoge equipment, etc. All that happens is they get a slap on the wrist.

Also, if a non-union employee ends up doing a job that a union employee is being paid to do but refuses to do... the union employee can then file a grievance and get paid a ridiculous amount of extra pay.

So yeah... unions pretty much suck.

I dont know what company you saw that go on in. I work for a US auto company assembly plant. I can tell you now it is not like it was 25 years ago. That crap does not go on . We work dam hard and long hours in the heat and believe it or not it does take some skill and endurance to keep up with the line and to do it correctly. It takes a certain person to work like that and thats why sometimes there is a high turnover rate at these plants. Alot just up and quit...even if it payed good.
 

Maxx

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too much corruption though...after clinton opened up trading with vietnam in the 90's there was a huge rush of american money into vietnam, a few years later they all pulled out because they were getting nickel and dimed for everything.

(i'm vietnamese)

Par for the course, that's related to what I meant when I mentioned "politics." Thank you for local insight, though...time for me to get out of this caustic thread however. :D
 

pothb

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too much corruption though...after clinton opened up trading with vietnam in the 90's there was a huge rush of american money into vietnam, a few years later they all pulled out because they were getting nickel and dimed for everything.

(i'm vietnamese)

Yea, but it's actually turning around more recently. I'm vietnamese too... and I did some research for a project.
 

mortonP

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I don't blame them. If they opened a factory in the US, within 6 months it would unionize and the workers would demand $30/hour + Full benefits and retirement. Their job, screwing two pieces of plastic together.

And how do you expect anyone to live and support a family in the USA on anything less than $30.00 per hour? It can't be done!
 

mortonP

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So you think its a great thing when American companies build factories outside the US... because people here may dare to demand a living wage, good working conditions, and a secure future? I'll give the right wing credit for being honest about one thing, you make no attempt to mask your disdain for your fellow man. I suppose once this finally becomes a serfdom, and most people are forced into abject poverty and will work for next to nothing, then it will be OK to bring the factories back ehh?

Well said! I'm sick of these selfish right wing douchebags too.
 

mortonP

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Damn straight, Every American should be striving to work for minimum wage with no pension.

I hope you are doing your part.

It's already projected that by the time it is time for this gen to retire there will be no Gov. provided pensions so now all they have to do is get us all to work for minimum wage. But even minimum wage is too much for many companies when they can pay a tenth of that to someone in China, India, Vietnam, etc.

If they didn't charge us $5.00 for lousy loaf of bread we wouldn't need such high wages to begin with.
 

Monkey God

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toyota's most productive plant is in the united states

Also its most expensive to operate. Did you forget to factor in the amount of money Toyota saves for not having to import/ship the cars in? Did you factor in the public relations benefits? Thought not.
 

glutto

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guess what? It is nearly impossible to fire somebody who is part of a union.. even if they call in sick multiple days a week, don't do the job they are supposedly being paid to do, sabotage equipment, etc. All that happens is they get a slap on the wrist.

So yeah... unions pretty much suck.
This is the exact same Hell I'm going through at my workplace, except it's unionized government work. The same people calling in sick every Friday, getting paid sick time every Friday, not doing the job they're getting paid for, disappearing for half the day, yapping/texting on their cell phones all day, grossly abusing the equipment they rely on, and on and on...

My sole interest is doing the job I'm being paid for to the best of my ability. Theirs is the stereotypical lazy union attitude. "We get paid by the hour", "we're unionized, we don't have to work", "it's break time", "it's not my job", "we'll do the work when we're ready", "working conditions are terrible", "not in my job description", "we're underpaid and overworked", the always popular "this fucking place is a JOKE", etc, etc. My co-workers will figuratively slit each others throats and ruthlessly back stab each other to avoid doing their job. This is not an attitude I share.

Each of the union workers think they're The Ultimate Worker and are irreplaceable, despite the fact that it's a simple manual labor job with a basic grade 12 requirement which any idiot could do. My current union/workplace is by far the worst union I've ever been in. It is an absolute sheer Hell to work beside these treacherous people.
 

twelveparsex

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Also its most expensive to operate. Did you forget to factor in the amount of money Toyota saves for not having to import/ship the cars in? Did you factor in the public relations benefits? Thought not.

and those have no monetary value at all?
 

Manaknight

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So you think its a great thing when American companies build factories outside the US... because people here may dare to demand a living wage, good working conditions, and a secure future? I'll give the right wing credit for being honest about one thing, you make no attempt to mask your disdain for your fellow man. I suppose once this finally becomes a serfdom, and most people are forced into abject poverty and will work for next to nothing, then it will be OK to bring the factories back ehh?

i believe in a wage fitting the job.

assembly line unions making more money than highly skilled technical specialists is a skewed view of labor.

risk or specialization should increase wage...not a union.
so many things are wrong with labor and education in this country that it's no wonder we are hemorrhaging jobs to 2nd and 3rd world nations.

added to that is the fact that they can in fact pay those people in vietnam a decent living wage and still be putting out far less than an american fab doing the same work.

fixing the system has to come before things will turn around.
 

steal

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Spoken like a true marxist. Simplifying capitalism and global interrelated economies to serfdom and disdain for fellow man.

Asking for a livable wage has been equated to Marxism now, hahahah. :)
 

Monkey34

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So I used to be employeed by a Union.. I Got paid 25+ an hour to do the same job I was doing before that at 12/hr.. Difference is that when I was with the union I wasnt expected to work as hard..
Then you obviously was in the wrong union. The one I was in was not like that at all.

That was a decade ago.. Now between me & my wife we barely clear 25/hr combined.. Were still not only surviving, but were doing OK. So no 30/hr is not a living wage.. Its a Sports car & weekend home wage..
In what area of the country? Backwoods Kentucky where it costs $10 and a bottle of moonshine a week to live?? 30/hr in definitely NOT a sports car and weekend home here...MAYBE if you BOTH make 30 and hour and have no kids.
 

fattypants

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Manufacturing is going where the labor is cheap, and former third-world countries are pushing harder into high-tech industries.

When they have all the brains and all the manufacturing capabilities, I wonder how long they're going to keep accepting our cotton promissory notes in exchange for real goods?
 

KatalDT

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And how do you expect anyone to live and support a family in the USA on anything less than $30.00 per hour? It can't be done!

Uhh... $30/hour is a lot more than MOST people make right out of college, and more than a lot of people with only a HS degree *EVER* make.

And they raise families just fine.
 

DTN107

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Uhh... $30/hour is a lot more than MOST people make right out of college, and more than a lot of people with only a HS degree *EVER* make.

And they raise families just fine.

*facepalm*
 

Azhar

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ok...you wouldn't even be contributing to the creation of american jobs anyway if they built a plant here

I might! I'm very impressed with the Core i3 and i5 processors based on about 20+ laptops I've purchased for employees the past several months. I just haven't had any compelling reason to upgrade from a Phenom II right now. The speed jump would be minuscule unless I go i7 and I have no reason to get a processor that fast.

Perhaps the next generation Core i3 will replace my aging Athlon 64 in my media center.
 

twelveparsex

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wage isn't the only thing that makes it cost prohibitive to open a plant in america. the cost of building the plant itself...remember the foxcon suicides a few months ago? they forced all their workers to work 12 hours a week for literally months at a time without a day off
 
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