Intel Intros new PSU standard ATX12VO

I like the idea of simplifying the voltages/connections to the mainboard. I'm not so certain about having SATA/etc. power coming off the mainboard to the drives, though it's certainly less of an issue these days than in the past (e.g., the proliferation of m.2, disappearing optical drives). Mainboards are already crowded enough without adding more connectors to them.

I do wish they'd rethink the form-factor of the PSU. The large, bulky cube of the ATX standard always takes up so much space in a case and is in the way of a sleek, low-profile build. Maybe with the PSU being simplified SFX will take off, which will help in that respect.
 
BlueLineSwinger said:
I do wish they'd rethink the form-factor of the PSU. The large, bulky cube of the ATX standard always takes up so much space in a case and is in the way of a sleek, low-profile build. Maybe with the PSU being simplified SFX will take off, which will help in that respect.
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Same here. My first thought was "Did they apply it to new form factors"?. They didn't, But it should still help streamline things if it takes off.

I really feel like we are overdue for a complete form factor overhaul, for card, PSU, everything... ATX is has poor space efficiency, and cooling for GPUs is really sub optimal. The card cage model was designed for VERY low power cards, not 300W GPUs.
 
The new BTX, and Intel is so not in position to make new standards now ! :eggface:
They tried BTX when they were trying to sell PIV. History repeats.
 
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Jandor said:
The new BTX, and Intel is so not in position to make new standards now ! :eggface:
They tried BTX when they were trying to sell PIV. History repeats.
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Not quite the same, and I think AMD would be much more willing to be on board with the new standard. Actually, it's really up to the motherboard manufacturers.

BTX died because it required a redesign of cases and motherboards, and motherboard and case manufacturers were not willing to invest the money to do so. It was a chicken and egg scenario in that neither one wanted to invest without the other doing so.

In this scenario, a case redesign isn't necessary, and the motherboard overhaul isn't quite as extensive either. Motherboards using the new power supply standards can still fit in normal ATX, mATX, and ITX cases. In fact, it would be quite advantageous in the ITX space. Replace the 24 pin with a 10 pin, make the EPS connector optional, and that's a lot of board real estate freed up. Motherboard manufacturers can also fairly easily make a motherboard for each spec during the transition phase; it's not like they're complete strangers to voltage regulation hardware.

As for the PSU manufacturers, it matters even less. Today's PSUs are fully capable of not needing a load on their 5v and 3.3v rails. A modular power supply can just leave the motherboard connector disconnected and supply a cable that conforms to the new standard using their existing pinout.
 
Tsumi said:
Not quite the same, and I think AMD would be much more willing to be on board with the new standard. Actually, it's really up to the motherboard manufacturers.

BTX died because it required a redesign of cases and motherboards, and motherboard and case manufacturers were not willing to invest the money to do so. It was a chicken and egg scenario in that neither one wanted to invest without the other doing so.

In this scenario, a case redesign isn't necessary, and the motherboard overhaul isn't quite as extensive either. Motherboards using the new power supply standards can still fit in normal ATX, mATX, and ITX cases. In fact, it would be quite advantageous in the ITX space. Replace the 24 pin with a 10 pin, make the EPS connector optional, and that's a lot of board real estate freed up. Motherboard manufacturers can also fairly easily make a motherboard for each spec during the transition phase; it's not like they're complete strangers to voltage regulation hardware.

As for the PSU manufacturers, it matters even less. Today's PSUs are fully capable of not needing a load on their 5v and 3.3v rails. A modular power supply can just leave the motherboard connector disconnected and supply a cable that conforms to the new standard using their existing pinout.
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Though it does seem like it would have been more successful if Intel tried to pull some industry players together with a united effort, instead of going solo as it appears.

But I am rooting for it. We really need to chip away at legacy cruft where ever we can.
 
Intel should get their shit together and fix their cpus and process, not stuff like this. Bigger fish to fry, more serious problems looming...
 
thesmokingman said:
Intel should get their shit together and fix their cpus and process, not stuff like this. Bigger fish to fry, more serious problems looming...
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Intel has >100K employees.

The rest of the company shouldn't grind to a halt, while one area experiences issues.

The people doing PSU stuff aren't the same people doing silicon fabrication, nor CPU design.
 
I just noticed that Intel is using a 10 pin PSU connector on the Ghost Canyon NUC. I would bet it's a 12VO PSU:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/351...lement-10-questions-and-intriguing-facts.html
compute_card_10_pin-100827024-orig.jpg
 
Snowdog said:
Intel has >100K employees.

The rest of the company shouldn't grind to a halt, while one area experiences issues.

The people doing PSU stuff aren't the same people doing silicon fabrication, nor CPU design.
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It's doesn't matter if they have 200k ppl, as most of them are doing jack. Intel is failing bad at their core competency. 10K ppl at AMD (vs 100k at Intel), is showing Intel how shit is to be done right. Lmao, Intel cannot even incorporate pcie4. I don't have an issue with changing up the psu standards, but imo they have some major core competency issues to deal with first.
 
thesmokingman said:
It's doesn't matter if they have 200k ppl, as most of them are doing jack. Intel is failing bad at their core competency. 10K ppl at AMD (vs 100k at Intel), is showing Intel how shit is to be done right. Lmao, Intel cannot even incorporate pcie4. I don't have an issue with changing up the psu standards, but imo they have some major core competency issues to deal with first.
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You are basically just shit posting/thread crapping here.
 
that would just make people hard to move to intel, specially with amd popularity these days. It looks great but it would just be a bad move for Intel to do it themselves.
 
luisxd said:
that would just make people hard to move to intel, specially with amd popularity these days. It looks great but it would just be a bad move for Intel to do it themselves.
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This isn't for general consumption, it's for Dell/HP and the like. Making a standard instead of just have Dell and HP and other OEMs all do their own custom thing.
 
luisxd said:
I hate those dell propietary connectors, I've been working dell PCs for some time and their PSU and fan cables are always a pain in the ass to deal with.
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Why? Genuinely curious here.

I have a Dell on my desk at work, and while the inside of it appears to be both obnoxiously proprietary AND cheaply made, it doesn't appear that connectors are fundamentally different other ones used in PCs. Are there some that have something resembling the old AT connector that was such as pain in the ass to remove?
 
luisxd said:
that would just make people hard to move to intel, specially with amd popularity these days. It looks great but it would just be a bad move for Intel to do it themselves.
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Remember that it's up to the board and PSU manufacturers to actually implement it.



It's also mostly what they're doing already. Is anything aside from SATA using something other than 12v these days?
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Remember that it's up to the board and PSU manufacturers to actually implement it.



It's also mostly what they're doing already. Is anything aside from SATA using something other than 12v these days?
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The 3.3V rail is actually used on a lot of graphics cards to power the ICs that do things like control the main VRM, and 5V is the standard operating voltage for USB.

In order to avoid changing the PCI-E spec to allow 3.3V to be absent, you'd have to have a moderately robust buck converter on the motherboard to produce it. Same thing with 5V most likely, although I could see some motherboards already having this for other purposes.
 
RazorWind said:
The 3.3V rail is actually used on a lot of graphics cards to power the ICs that do things like control the main VRM, and 5V is the standard operating voltage for USB.

In order to avoid changing the PCI-E spec to allow 3.3V to be absent, you'd have to have a moderately robust buck converter on the motherboard to produce it. Same thing with 5V most likely, although I could see some motherboards already having this for other purposes.
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That's what the spec calls for I believe. It would require a cable from the motherboard to supply power for SATA drives.
 
Tsumi said:
That's what the spec calls for I believe. It would require a cable from the motherboard to supply power for SATA drives.
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That's something that bothers me about the whole idea, at least once it makes it out to the BYO components we all use.

If I'm putting together a storage server, will I have to buy a special and/or expensive MB just so that it has enough power conversion for the SATA drives? I'd imagine a cheap board with "4 SATA ports, able to power up to 4 SATA 2.5" drives" in its specs, which is not ideal for throwing in RAID cards.

Or else would someone be producing voltage conversion boards to mount somewhere in the case that just does it all for us (and is hopefully made by a reputable company)? I'd like this option, though it's my prediction that 12VO PSUs won't be any cheaper than what we're using now despite the reduction in components so cost will be higher overall.
 
Grebuloner said:
That's something that bothers me about the whole idea, at least once it makes it out to the BYO components we all use.

If I'm putting together a storage server, will I have to buy a special and/or expensive MB just so that it has enough power conversion for the SATA drives? I'd imagine a cheap board with "4 SATA ports, able to power up to 4 SATA 2.5" drives" in its specs, which is not ideal for throwing in RAID cards.

Or else would someone be producing voltage conversion boards to mount somewhere in the case that just does it all for us (and is hopefully made by a reputable company)? I'd like this option, though it's my prediction that 12VO PSUs won't be any cheaper than what we're using now despite the reduction in components so cost will be higher overall.
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With today's PSUs being limited on 5v and 3.3v power, it would actually make sense to go in this direction. Each RAID card should have its own set of power connection for the SATA drives. That way, you don't need to worry about having enough 5v and 3.3v power on your PSU, it just simply expands with each RAID card you add.
 
Yeah this looks like a half baked idea from intel, just like BTX was. The whole run a power cable from your motherboard to your drives seems backwards. I am sure intel has plans for proprietary cabling that plugs in board side that you have to buy from them.
 
Grebuloner said:
That's something that bothers me about the whole idea, at least once it makes it out to the BYO components we all use.

If I'm putting together a storage server, will I have to buy a special and/or expensive MB just so that it has enough power conversion for the SATA drives? I'd imagine a cheap board with "4 SATA ports, able to power up to 4 SATA 2.5" drives" in its specs, which is not ideal for throwing in RAID cards.

Or else would someone be producing voltage conversion boards to mount somewhere in the case that just does it all for us (and is hopefully made by a reputable company)? I'd like this option, though it's my prediction that 12VO PSUs won't be any cheaper than what we're using now despite the reduction in components so cost will be higher overall.
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The spec calls for up to six drives on a six pin connector similar to PCIe power connectors used today (but keyed differently). Two connectors can feed 12 drives. If you need more than 12 drives you're going to want a case that with a backplane that has its own 12v converter for powering the drives. HP, Dell, SuperMicro, etc already have products today that do that.
 
Starfalcon said:
Yeah this looks like a half baked idea from intel, just like BTX was. The whole run a power cable from your motherboard to your drives seems backwards. I am sure intel has plans for proprietary cabling that plugs in board side that you have to buy from them.
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Eh, spinners aren't high in power draw, and they're also not numerous in most deployments.

It's also not comparable to BTX, which was a reimagining of basically everything, and not even a poor one -- just not one that was picked up by board, case, and power supply makers. The ideas were (and arguably still are) used extensively by OEMs like Dell and HP.

As for proprietary connectors... Intel has no dog in that fight. They don't make the boards nor the drives that would be at either end.
 
This sounds like a solution in search of a problem. It's not likely to reduce PSU costs at all and even if it does it won't reduce them much. However, I would expect motherboard prices to go up quite a bit since it would require the motherboards to handle the conversion from 12v to whatever voltage is needed for different devices. That's not even taking into account the need for motherboards to have additional ports built in to power devices not directly attached to the motherboard such as all SATA devices. This would make motherboards even more difficult to design due to the increased power handling needs and who knows what it will do with regards to electronic noise.

I think it's a really stupid idea overall. PSUs easily handle the different voltages needed. Moving that to the motherboard adds complications to an already much more complicated product with no tangible benefits.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Eh, spinners aren't high in power draw, and they're also not numerous in most deployments.

It's also not comparable to BTX, which was a reimagining of basically everything, and not even a poor one -- just not one that was picked up by board, case, and power supply makers. The ideas were (and arguably still are) used extensively by OEMs like Dell and HP.

As for proprietary connectors... Intel has no dog in that fight. They don't make the boards nor the drives that would be at either end.
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BTX was designed so they could cool the presshot cpu's, and have an enormous heatsink in the middle of the case so it could get airflow moving through it. The only real remnant they use of that is mounting the board on the opposite side of the case upside down. Plus adding the extra convertor on the board along with power planes to handle it, will just make boards even more expensive. It was similar to when intel moved power regulation on their cpus, then next gen moved it back off again.
 
Kaos_Drem said:
M.2 ssds are 3.3V.
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They take negligible power. Adding a power stage to handle this to the MB would take few inexpensive components and generate little heat, or cost.

Starfalcon said:
Yeah this looks like a half baked idea from intel, just like BTX was. The whole run a power cable from your motherboard to your drives seems backwards. I am sure intel has plans for proprietary cabling that plugs in board side that you have to buy from them.
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It's more forward looking that backwards. Think how much cleaner cabling could be, if instead of two cables from different locations, each drive would use something like eSataP, and only required one cable to the MB.

It's annoying how we have been saddled with the ATX form factor for decades, and we keep trying to shoehorn modern components into this ancient form factor. You end up with a large mostly empty box, with fans all over the perimeter try to pushing cool air in, and pull hot air out. Then fans on the interior frantically trying to cool components, much hotter than ATX was designed for, with whatever interior heated Ambient air the perimeter fans manage to provide. Then we have a mess of internal cabling stringing around.

It would be nice if people stopped complaining about a modernization effort because they have chip on their shoulder about the company proposing it.

I applaud any effort to modernize standards. Whether it comes from Intel,NVidia, AMD, or AIBs. Too bad they couldn't get together and trying moving things forward.
 
Replacing the stupid 24-pin connector with a 10-pin is a win. I don't care if it's cheaper or not. It will be about the same cost anyway.
 
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BTX died because it required a completely new case and mobo, and did not work with current systems. When intel came out with their version of IA-64, it failed because it did not have any support for 32 bit operation beside poor emulation that was glacially slow. When AMD released their version of it that supported both, that became the 64 bit standard. Its the same reason windows is backward compatable, if it only ran windows 10 designed aps and didnt run any old software or games it would die too. Change for changes sake doesnt work, have to ease it in slowly for it to work.
 
Snowdog said:
They take negligible power. Adding a power stage to handle this to the MB would take few inexpensive components and generate little heat, or cost.
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I don't think you really understand how complex it would be to add more buck regulators to a motherboard. It's not just about "slapping on a few components and bobs your uncle." Buck regulation requires proper engineering or else bad things happen, a good example of how bad things can get are Apple laptops. I've seen buck regulation sections fail due to design faults and when the PWM switching stops, you're sending 12v to components that run from 0.5-5v that ends up with fire, exploded ICs and craters in the motherboard. To translate this to a desktop PC, you'd be having blown up drives, fried video cards and whatever else was on those lesser rails.

There's also the problem that buck regulation creates tons of ugly noise on the power bus and via RF that's hard to filter out. Remember back when audio chips first started appearing on motherboards and had horrible problems with buzzing, hums, clicking, etc? Much of that was to do with the power regulation circuitry for the CPU. Board manufacturers had to re-learn learn how to lay out motherboard to reduce cross talk from bus noise like that.

I for damn sure don't want to rely on a motherboard manufacturer to be regulating all of the voltages to all of the components in the system, it's a recipe for disaster. We've already been seeing problems with CPU VRMs frying for various reasons, and I don't want to have experimental power circuitry potentially killing the entire machine. Motherboard manufacturers should be making motherboards, not power supplies. Leave the power supplies to power supply manufacturers.

Snowdog said:
It's more forward looking that backwards. Think how much cleaner cabling could be, if instead of two cables from different locations, each drive would use something like eSataP, and only required one cable to the MB.
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This is the sad excuse the entire tech industry is using these days and it's terrifying. "Let's kill off this decades old proven, reliable standard with this new, untested and dangerous standard because it's more convenient." Just because something is old and slightly inconvenient, doesn't mean a half baked new idea is better just because you save a few cables.
 
GiGaBiTe said:
I don't think you really understand how complex it would be to add more buck regulators to a motherboard. It's not just about "slapping on a few components and bobs your uncle." Buck regulation requires proper engineering or else bad things happen, a good example of how bad things can get are Apple laptops. I've seen buck regulation sections fail due to design faults and when the PWM switching stops, you're sending 12v to components that run from 0.5-5v that ends up with fire, exploded ICs and craters in the motherboard. To translate this to a desktop PC, you'd be having blown up drives, fried video cards and whatever else was on those lesser rails.
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MB's already have to convert 12V to low voltage to power CPUs that can draw 200W. And you are acting like suddenly 20 W power conversion is going to be a huge deal.
 
Snowdog said:
MB's already have to convert 12V to low voltage to power CPUs that can draw 200W. And you are acting like suddenly 20 W power conversion is going to be a huge deal.
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And you didn't read my post.

I'm not concerned about power draw, I'm concerned about implementation and the fact that multiple buck converters are going to be sprinkled around the board. Apple laptops are a perfect example of things can go wrong, as I have already said. If you can't expect a multi billion dollar company to do it correctly, I sure don't trust half a dozen motherboard vendors to do it right either.
 
GiGaBiTe said:
And you didn't read my post.

I'm not concerned about power draw, I'm concerned about implementation and the fact that multiple buck converters are going to be sprinkled around the board. Apple laptops are a perfect example of things can go wrong, as I have already said. If you can't expect a multi billion dollar company to do it correctly, I sure don't trust half a dozen motherboard vendors to do it right either.
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They already do this on NUC, Thin-ITX and Mini-STX boards. Those things are miniscule and I haven't heard of this being a serious issue, the same applies to some degree to most every laptop on the planet. Whats that? A billion or so examples. God,they must exploding every second. ;)

Your concerns, look more like pointless FUD.
 
This is in fact a smart move from Intel. Will the need of 3.3V and 5V disappear ? No, but it won't be the PSU but the motherboard which will provide the current converted from 13V.
The sùart move is that the motherboards will be become more expensive and fragile and the PSU simpler and cheaper. Intel doesn't care about the PSU manufacturers but cares about the motherboard manufacturers and the loss of Intel speedy update pace they may resent. So Intel is taking from the PSU manufacturers and giving to the motherboard manufacturers what he took and in between he adds another brick to the planned obsolescence of your system.
 
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