Integrated amp or stereo receiver for PC 2.1?

Thought I'd share with the people who helped me decide what to get. Emotiva XDA-2 and UPA-200. Incredible build quality and sounds amazing.



Even the remote screams quality. It's machined aluminum.



Big thank you to Hammer Sandwich for the suggestion on Emotiva!! :)
 
Thumbs up on the good choice. Maybe your next upgrade you can get some Bryston, Conrad Johnson's or Krell power/monoblock amps.
 
A clean watt is a clean watt as long as the amp is not screwing up the frequency response, no one has ever been able to tell otherwise in a fair test - see Richard Clark's long-standing bet in the car audio world.

If the amplifier is not introducing distortion it will sound exactly the same as another with the same source material.

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

If you're buying expensive amps do so for build quality, looks, etc. For purposes of sound, your money is better spent on source or speakers. In the car audio world it's the worst, you have people spending hundreds to thousands of dollars on these old Linear Power amplifiers for their mythical sound quality purposes.
 
Uh, not in my experience. Different amplifiers can sound very different indeed. I assure you, I didn't buy my Conrad-Johnson amp for its looks, nor my previous McIntosh amp that the CJ replaced.

I used to believe what you just wrote, until l heard for myself.
 
Snoflo said:
Uh, not in my experience. Different amplifiers can sound very different indeed. I assure you, I didn't buy my Conrad-Johnson amp for its looks, nor my previous McIntosh amp that the CJ replaced.

I used to believe what you just wrote, until l heard for myself.
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http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/10-things-about-audio-amplifiers

http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm

I'd say to everyone "listen for yourselves and make up your own mind" but it's incredibly difficult to do that in an unbiased situation and there are tricks used to upsell people in hi fi stores, usually small volume differences.

The one thing you do have to pay for is output at certain distortion level... so if you have inefficient speakers and speakers that are hard to drive like some electrostatics, you need to pay attention to how the amplifier responds at low impedence levels and when outputting quite a bit of power.

I'd also say if your amp is coloring the sound enough to make a big difference in post-amplification F/R, maybe that's subjectively something that sounds good with your speakers and is OK. However, it's not something I'd actively want when purchasing equipment unless I had finicky speakers.

I've done this before though and unless your CJ amp sounds dramatically different from that other guy's Emotiva due to post-amplification frequency response, I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference on neutral equipment. Sure change out the speakers and I absolutely can... change the DAC and sometimes. Maybe there are people out there with golden ears and you're one of them, but I'm definitely not.

I love huge hulking older Sony ES gear - but it's for the aesthetics. They sound like anything else to me.
 
atarione said:
Onkyo has a few things you might want to look at
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While Onkyos without HDMI boards are far less likely to have the issues that its A/V receivers do, I don't suggest buying anything from the brand. Their refusal for years now to fix the overheating issues in their receivers should be resulting in boycotts, not recommendations. And in any case, there's no way Onkyo's non-HDMI products are going to be more reliable as a better company such as Yamaha. Do not buy Onkyo anything. Ever.

Also, on another note, completely ignore SnoFlo's assertion that different amps color the sound under normal operation. He can go win the RC Amp challenge (yes I've heard that this has not actually been available for years, but I still like to reference it - people would have won it if they could) and then get back to us on that. Or he can show us evidence of a double-blind ABX test that has proven his point (I am aware of several that failed to do so, though - some of them even including tube amps alongside solid-state). Until then, he's uninformed. Amps add almost no distortion to the signal - not even 1% as much as your speakers. It's insignificant. In any case, you shouldn't spend a lot of money on amplification (unless you'll actually use more power or the higher-end product has more features that you'll use) until you've bought your dream speakers. Or do room treatments.
 
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dandragonrage said:
Also, on another note, completely ignore SnoFlo's assertion that different amps color the sound under normal operation. He can go win the RC Amp challenge and then get back to us on that. Or he can show us evidence of a double-blind ABX test that has proven his point (I am aware of several that failed to do so, though - some of them even including tube amps alongside solid-state). Until then, he's uninformed. Amps add almost no distortion to the signal - not even 1% as much as your speakers. It's insignificant. In any case, you shouldn't spend a lot of money on amplification (unless you'll actually use more power or the higher-end product has more features that you'll use) until you've bought your dream speakers. Or do room treatments.
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Can't tell if serious.
 
I would agree that in general, most amps will sound similar unless driven to clipping. However it's very easy to drive many amps to clipping if you are using some hard to drive speakers. Two years ago at an AVS getogether a Salk Soundscape 10 drive a 300W/CH 80lb power amplifier to clipping in a living room, at a mere 50W/ch draw from the wall due to impedance dropping below 2ohms...
 
cant be serious comparing CJ to Emotiva!!!!! CJ only make high end audio components.
 
Emotiva is entry level separates. Their stuff is decent... I own 2 XP5s and and I won't complain. They certainly are no Crown amps, by far but for the typical 80%, they are fine.
 
InternationalHat said:
He's 100% correct.
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And I say bs. If all well designed amps are the same, then there is no need for variety and there would be no need for some of the worlds best circuit/amplifier designers such as Nelson Pass, Bob Carver, John Curl, John Linsley Hood, Douglas Self and the list goes on and on putting effort into new designs circulating around different transistors, semiconductors and valves used in amplifiers of various designs be it monoblocks, power, integrated, hybrid class a or valves (SET, PP, OTL, SRPP) and etc.

That statement made sounds like somebody with an objective amp shoved so far up there ass that they can't even distinguish an amp with 200% THD distortion to a 0.05% THD distortion amp, qualifying both as sounding the same. What a load of crap.
 
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Matthew Kane said:
And I say bs. If all well designed amps are the same, then there is no need for variety and there would be no need for some of the worlds best circuit/amplifier designers such as Nelson Pass, Bob Carver, John Curl, John Linsley Hood, Douglas Self and the list goes on and on putting effort into new designs circulating around different transistors, semiconductors and valves used in amplifiers of various designs be it monoblocks, power, integrated, hybrid class a or valves (SET, PP, OTL, SRPP) and etc.
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Just because someone does something a certain way doesn't mean other ways are wrong. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Are you really using this as your argument? Have you ever heard of the scientific process? It has nothing to do with Nelson Pass (yes I am familiar with these people btw) existing. He makes some great amplifiers that are absolutely not worth buying. The Class A stuff is technically better, but by so little that it doesn't matter and is not worth the size and power consumption of his products. I would not recommend ANYONE buy a Pass amp. I do think he's contributed designs and research that have brought benefits to the industry (as have the others), but I still don't recommend Class A amplifiers. At least some of those guys built more efficient amplifiers than Pass. I'm not saying there are no theoretical differences in the products - Class A does offer VERY minor advantages over AB, but the difference is not audible. Any money you would spend on such an amp would be 100-1000x more useful in speakers or room treatments. As for valves, they exist because they existed before transistors. Some people still like them in the same way that some people still prefer to drive vintage cars, live in old houses, etc. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but it would be incorrect to say that valves are better than transistors. They are not (less efficient, less reliable, larger, generally higher distortion), but they can still do a good job. In general, lots of people like lots of things. You can't use that fact to try and claim one thing is better than another without actually providing scientific reasons.

Your argument is as crappy as everyone else who makes the same claims as you. Emotions and beliefs do not belong in scientific arguments. You can buy your own stuff based on those things if you want, but don't try and convince other people that you know what you're talking about when you gain nothing from spreading ignorance. I could randomly name-drop tons of people (without providing information) to try and prove a point, but it would be pointless. It would prove absolutely nothing. It would make me look silly like you.

You can call BS on whatever you want. In this case, you are wrong. Also, nobody cares positively that Matthew Kane calls BS on something he doesn't understand.



dragonageinquisition said:
I would agree that in general, most amps will sound similar unless driven to clipping. However it's very easy to drive many amps to clipping if you are using some hard to drive speakers. Two years ago at an AVS getogether a Salk Soundscape 10 drive a 300W/CH 80lb power amplifier to clipping in a living room, at a mere 50W/ch draw from the wall due to impedance dropping below 2ohms...
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Yes, some speakers need higher quality amps to drive (like I said, do consider the amp if you need the power or features). Personally, I recommend avoiding hard-to-drive speakers in general, for the most part. The vast majority of speakers are not an issue, though.

Personally, I think low-impedance speakers for home audio are absolutely unacceptable. Higher-impedance setups are generally a little more efficient. 4-ohm woofers should be used in pairs for home audio to make 8 ohms. 6 ohms is fine. 4 ohms is too low considering the lack of benefits. 4 ohms rating with significant 2 ohm dips is downright unacceptable. I would never recommend such a speaker. Even if it's a great speaker, you will be able to find other speakers as good if not better that do not have such an impedance issue.
 
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The thread has derailed a bit: congratulations Tyler (the OP) on getting some fine components! That remote is awesome! You should 'break-in' your amp by blasting your neighbours into next week. :D

Now, on cue, someone will chime in that breaking-in audio components is rubbish. It probably is, but at least you have an excuse to use when housemates want to know why you're playing back test tones, 1812 cannons, and Tyrannosaurus rex roars at 120dB.
 
Snoflo said:
Now, on cue, someone will chime in that breaking-in audio components is rubbish. It probably is, but at least you have an excuse to use when housemates want to know why you're playing back test tones, 1812 cannons, and Tyrannosaurus rex roars at 120dB.
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Well, scientifically it is rubbish, but we can certainly agree that it's the right thing to do regardless :p
 
dandragonrage said:
..........
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What a load of crap sounds like you don't have the slightest clue you're talking about but yet again I've seen heaps of your kind online spouting bullcrap to convince people otherwise I'm sure you know more then the manufacturers itself. You failed to read my post and responded with pure garbage. First off I wasn't comparing different different circuit designs be it class a ss or class a tubes etc, not one single line I mentioned about comparing these things. My argument is the few posts before mine that one of the posters responded with one research saying well designed amps sound the same - end here this is where I say no it doesn't. Apart from driving different transducers with different load ratings+efficiency, early clipping happening this is true.

You know theres the golden recommendation of better to judge something by having direct experience with it then listening and reading other peoples opinions, bang on this point have you heard any good amp besides your standard Yamaha or Sony HT crap? I don't think so. Aside from subjective listening and presenting objective or as you put it scientific data please do compare every amplifiers measurments out there driving different nominal impedance loads and tell me if there FR is the same. I never said if one person implements and designs an amp a unique way that rules out others as doing it wrong again points out you weren't reading my post or seriously lack comprehension skills.

No I also don't think you have the slightest of who those designers/engineers are aside from a quick google but hey your response turned out to be pure nonsense anyway. The reason I mentioned the select few examples is because if all amps are the same you may as well buy some cheap off the shelf crap (modern day Denon, Yamaha, Pioneers, Sony list goes on) and discredit the said people and the unique designs they've brought to the table (such as Nelson Passes mosfet based power amps, anybody who builds, designs and understands schematics and such know mosfets don't belong in high end audio driven in the output stage for some factors such as thermal runaway), but he successfully has but at a very high bias and low to mild voltage.

If this discussion was about cables, dacs with some small difference to none for cables then it would've been fine but saying all amps sound the same completely insane and as far as scientific backup brought to the table you haven't done a single thing of that besides say from my pov if its class a it sounds the same lol and nonsense about not buying Pass amps because it's not class a because YOU don't like it.

I've done my homework on this touchy subject, I build, repaired these sort of things as well as owning/auditioning some of the high end stuff out there as well as doing DBT against lower priced equivalents. I use to think the same but having direct experience with boatload of stuff its absolutely bullocks.
 
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dandragonrage said:
Also, on another note, completely ignore SnoFlo's assertion that different amps color the sound under normal operation. He can go win the RC Amp challenge (yes I've heard that this has not actually been available for years, but I still like to reference it - people would have won it if they could) and then get back to us on that. Or he can show us evidence of a double-blind ABX test that has proven his point (I am aware of several that failed to do so, though - some of them even including tube amps alongside solid-state). Until then, he's uninformed. Amps add almost no distortion to the signal - not even 1% as much as your speakers. It's insignificant. In any case, you shouldn't spend a lot of money on amplification (unless you'll actually use more power or the higher-end product has more features that you'll use) until you've bought your dream speakers. Or do room treatments.
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Tube amps definitely do and so do various types and classes of amps like analog class A's vs digital switchers like class d's. Some tricks used in cheap knock offs come from subwoofer development where the take a cheap and efficient class d and load it with DSP's to make that amp hit their predetermined curves.

There's some hifi class a's that do have their own sound. Some amps out there do have some coloring to make that subtle difference. Oddly though it's most privilent during headphone playback versus floor standing speakers.

I've heard this with my own ears after being a non believer for many years.
 
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