Inside PlayStation 4 Pro: How Sony made the first 4K games console

S

SighTurtle

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
1,410
Inside PlayStation 4 Pro: How Sony made the first 4K games console

Eurogamer sits down with Mark Cerny, lead architect of the PS4 and Vita. Lots of info especially on the GPU side (where the most improvements take place, explanation of the work to reaching 4K)

(Merely a Summary of Improvements)
At a glance: what Mark Cerny told us about PS4 Pro

The tech session with Mark Cerny was signposted as far back as the PlayStation Meeting at the beginning of September, and it didn't fail to deliver a treasure trove of new information on the hardware make-up of the new machine and the ethos behind it. The highlights are as follows.

  • Additional 1GB of DDR3 RAM - used to swap out non-games apps (eg Netflix) from the 8GB of GDDR5
  • 512MB available to developers for 4K render targets and framebuffers
  • Another 512MB utilised for handling a 4K version of the dynamic menu front-end
  • New ID buffer for tracking triangles and objects, opening the door to advanced spatial and temporal anti-aliasing
  • 4K framebuffers either created from simpler geometry-only rendering or more advanced checkerboarding
  • Some developers - eg the developers of Spider-Man and For Honor - producing their own 4K techniques based on four million pixel framebuffers
  • Double the compute units, laid out like a mirror of the original PS4's GPU. Half the CUs deactivate when running in base PS4 mode
  • 2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model
  • AMD Polaris energy efficiency improvements enabling more power in a console form factor
  • Delta colour compression technology arrives in PS4 Pro, maximising memory bandwidth. Not seen in PS4
  • Primitive discard accelerator culls triangles from the scene that aren't visible
  • Enhanced 16-bit half-float support
  • Improvements for running multiple wavefronts on the compute units - more work per CU
  • New features from AMD roadmap - the ability to run two FP16 operations concurrently instead of one FP32, plus the integration of a work scheduler for increased efficiency
  • Advanced multi-resolution support for increased performance in VR titles
Click to expand...

How Sony views the Console market

But perhaps the biggest takeaway I had from the meeting with Mark Cerny was the insight into how Sony views the console generations. PS4 Pro and Project Scorpio have been seen as the beginning of the end of the jump to a new, more capable wave of hardware in favour of intermediate upgrades. What's clear is that Sony isn't buying into this. Cerny cites incompatibility problems, even moving between x86 CPU and AMD GPU architectures. I came away with the impression that PS5 will be a clean break, an actual generational leap as we know it. I do not feel the same about Project Scorpio, where all the indications are that Microsoft attempts to build its own Steam-like library around the Xbox brand, with games moving with you from one console to the next - and eventually, maybe even to the PC.
Click to expand...

Lots of insights, and I'm especially interested in the writer's perception of the console market, while MS turns towards PC and creating its own Xbox brand there, Sony is doubling down on the Playstation.
 
"2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model"

Interesting reading the article sounds like they just want it to work with old games, doesn't sound like any current games will be getting anything of a performance boost unless the developer decides to add support for it. I understand where they are coming from but sony charges for releasing patches on games so paid 'pro dlc' for games may actually be a thing and piss off a lot of people.

I also just don't see the ps5 not being backwards compatible unless they really went with a large architecture change, even then the gpu should be similar enough and including a jaguar cpu for backwards compat wouldn't cost that much.
 
yourgrandma said:
"2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model"

Interesting reading the article sounds like they just want it to work with old games, doesn't sound like any current games will be getting anything of a performance boost unless the developer decides to add support for it. I understand where they are coming from but sony charges for releasing patches on games so paid 'pro dlc' for games may actually be a thing and piss off a lot of people.

I also just don't see the ps5 not being backwards compatible unless they really went with a large architecture change, even then the gpu should be similar enough and including a jaguar cpu for backwards compat wouldn't cost that much.
Click to expand...

Sony has stated that developers will not be allowed to charge money for patches to games to upgrade to PS4 Pro. Now as for Sony charging money to developers for patching I'm having a hard time figuring out if developers still are required to pay for patches.
 
I can't justify or see how anyone else can buy another $400 system for upgraded specs if they already have a ps4. I'd rather sit that $400 to the side and have it put up for when the next PS5 comes out.

HDR this, 4k that, VR this, ps4 pro that. It seems like this gen of systems has been nothing more then a cash cow, constantly getting $400 from consumers.

Im more then happy with the $210 ps4 slim uncharted bundle I got from Amazon warehouse deals. I put a 2tb drive in it and I'll buy a new system when the next gen drops and 4k will actually be real not upscaled or have (pro) versions of games
 
Lol so wait, people are happy to buy this watered-down garbage 4k@30FPS (similar to 1080p@30FPS), but have the nerve to complain about the upcoming Switch possibly being $300-350 when it offers a completely different experience, completely different games, and which can't be replicated by the competition?

Sounds like a rerun of people buying into marketing hype for the past 3 gens.

Will be continuing with PC at home, with a Switch regardless of location. Have fun playing multiplats in slomo, dudebros (oh, and keep those preorders, DLC and Season Passes bought up while you're at it)...
 
Bman123 said:
I can't justify or see how anyone else can buy another $400 system for upgraded specs if they already have a ps4. I'd rather sit that $400 to the side and have it put up for when the next PS5 comes out.

HDR this, 4k that, VR this, ps4 pro that. It seems like this gen of systems has been nothing more then a cash cow, constantly getting $400 from consumers.

Im more then happy with the $210 ps4 slim uncharted bundle I got from Amazon warehouse deals. I put a 2tb drive in it and I'll buy a new system when the next gen drops and 4k will actually be real not upscaled or have (pro) versions of games
Click to expand...


Or just buy both. :)
 
They're making cool strides and I think the PS5 will be great. I'm not going to get a pro though, I'll stick with my PS4 as is, I have a PS4 for the exclusives and they already look great, and with the upgrades, it isn't going to be a night and day difference worth $400.
 
I'm seeing sites listing "PS4 Pro compatible" games. When I read it, it makes it sound like only these games are compatible by the system. There's going to be people out there that don't know every PS4 game is compatible.
 
Xinmosni said:
Lol so wait, people are happy to buy this watered-down garbage 4k@30FPS (similar to 1080p@30FPS), but have the nerve to complain about the upcoming Switch possibly being $300-350 when it offers a completely different experience, completely different games, and which can't be replicated by the competition?

Sounds like a rerun of people buying into marketing hype for the past 3 gens.

Will be continuing with PC at home, with a Switch regardless of location. Have fun playing multiplats in slomo, dudebros (oh, and keep those preorders, DLC and Season Passes bought up while you're at it)...
Click to expand...
More like maybe actual 4K some of the time. Microsoft and Sony really need to focus on 1080p 60 FPS without using dynamic resolution scaling, first, before they even think about attempting 4K in their home consoles. I haven't purchased a console game in more than a year because I'm sick and tired of 25 FPS watered down, blurry bullshit.
 
Armenius said:
More like maybe actual 4K some of the time. Microsoft and Sony really need to focus on 1080p 60 FPS without using dynamic resolution scaling, first, before they even think about attempting 4K in their home consoles. I haven't purchased a console game in more than a year because I'm sick and tired of 25 FPS watered down, blurry bullshit.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile Nintendo has always seemed to understand that frame rate matters. There are exceptions, but in any game where it matters most, they keep the framerate at 60. Yes, they've used some scaling and other techniques to achieve it, but it really looks great. (MK8 on the Wii U or Bayonetta 2 for example.)

I seriously don't understand why MS and Sony don't get it. It's probably the biggest thing that most game players ask for. Some don't, some say they don't notice or care, but I think most of us prefer fluid animation to just plain higher resolution. I still think what Sony is doing with the Pro is interesting, and since I don't have a PS4, I might actually grab a Pro for a few games that I want that are coming up, but I agree. It definitely shouldn't be called a 4K console. I'm sure it will look great, and I'm sure the games that are updated to take advantage will be a definite improvement, but to stick that label on it is a little silly I think.
 
I finding it odd why they feel the need to cripple the GPU for older base ps4 games, the games I would expect to not crash because the hardware is upgraded, after all PC games dont. So it means all these ps4 games that currently have variable framerate due to lack of grunt, will still have the same issues on the ps4 pro.

Although there is one logical reason to do this, it will keep developers making sure that games run well enough on the base model, as maybe otherwise games could have only been optimised for the ps4 pro and had unplayable ps4 base performance.
 
chrcoluk said:
I finding it odd why they feel the need to cripple the GPU for older base ps4 games, the games I would expect to not crash because the hardware is upgraded, after all PC games dont. So it means all these ps4 games that currently have variable framerate due to lack of grunt, will still have the same issues on the ps4 pro.

Although there is one logical reason to do this, it will keep developers making sure that games run well enough on the base model, as maybe otherwise games could have only been optimised for the ps4 pro and had unplayable ps4 base performance.
Click to expand...

From the article in regards to boosted GPU:
"I've done a number of experiments looking for issues when frequencies vary and... well... [laughs] I think first and foremost, we need everything to work flawlessly. We don't want people to be conscious of any issues that may arise when they move from the standard model to the PS4 Pro."
Click to expand...

While not listing any specific issues it sounds like there was enough problems where it was not a smart decision to allow PS4 Pro to run full power on non-compatible games.
 
Has anyone done a teardown on these yet? I'm not really a console fan, but case and cooling design arrangements always intrigue me and it's interesting to watch the various iterations of each playstation console. The original PS4 had a rather interesting cooling layout.
 
Bman123 said:
I can't justify or see how anyone else can buy another $400 system for upgraded specs if they already have a ps4. I'd rather sit that $400 to the side and have it put up for when the next PS5 comes out.

HDR this, 4k that, VR this, ps4 pro that. It seems like this gen of systems has been nothing more then a cash cow, constantly getting $400 from consumers.

Im more then happy with the $210 ps4 slim uncharted bundle I got from Amazon warehouse deals. I put a 2tb drive in it and I'll buy a new system when the next gen drops and 4k will actually be real not upscaled or have (pro) versions of games
Click to expand...

This is exactly why I am waiting for the Xbox Scorpio. The biggest kick in the face from Sony regarding the PS4 Pro is completely neglecting 4K UHD Blu Ray playback which the Xbox One S can do for $100 less and no-doubt the Scorpio will as well. I personally can't wait for Scorpio.
 
Yesterday Sony posted the official list of PS4 Pro optimized games: https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-will-be-optimised-for-ps4-pro-on-launch-day/

Unfortunately they failed to mention what additional features/support each will get. It'll be very interesting to see if the concept ends up tanking. Even though I've already ordered one I still hope the whole idea crashes and burns. I have no desire to play the haves/have-nots game with consoles every 2 years.
 
That supported games list is very underwhelming. Hopefully it will get more support for older games if the pro sells well.
 
Can't load the list of optimized games. I'd assume that some games may have some extra visuals or AA enabled. I would assume that all original and newer titles should run a little better on the new console. Just like upgrading your PC gives you a better framerate with older games.

Just my thoughts; not based on something that I read.
 
I think the catch to the PS4 Pro (and later the Scorpio I'd assume) is that developers have to actively enable/add features to their older games. I'm sure that going forward they'll probably be told that new games need at least 1-2 pro features, but I bet most older games don't get much of anything.
For older games, my 2 wishes are for Uncharted 4 and Bloodborne. I'd really, really like a 60fps option for both. I don't expect that to happen, but it's what I'd like to see. Bloodborne isn't even on the launch list, so I really doubt they plan to do much of anything with it at the moment.
 
Domingo said:
I think the catch to the PS4 Pro (and later the Scorpio I'd assume) is that developers have to actively enable/add features to their older games. I'm sure that going forward they'll probably be told that new games need at least 1-2 pro features, but I bet most older games don't get much of anything.
For older games, my 2 wishes are for Uncharted 4 and Bloodborne. I'd really, really like a 60fps option for both. I don't expect that to happen, but it's what I'd like to see. Bloodborne isn't even on the launch list, so I really doubt they plan to do much of anything with it at the moment.
Click to expand...

This. I don't have any interest in a pro unless they can get bloodborne running at 60 fps. I don't plan on buying a 4K set anytime soon, so it's useless to me otherwise.
 
From what I'm seeing in the reviews, people are actually liking this. It sounds like as we all expected, it's not a huge upgrade if you have a PS4 already, but if you don't, there's no reason not to pick up the Pro instead. It also looks like people think that it looks good in 4K too. Not earth-shattering or anything, but better than the base models. I still haven't decided if I really want a PS4 at all, but if I do pick one up, it will be the Pro. There's only a few games that I have my eyes on. If they don't come to PC, I may pick up a PS4 Pro for them.
 
chrcoluk said:
I finding it odd why they feel the need to cripple the GPU for older base ps4 games
Click to expand...

Console games tie things like physics engines to cycle rate or FPS. If you unexpectedly increase speed or FPS, the engines screw up. This laziness, and the general lack of desire to untie calculations from FPS, is also why many Japanese game PC ports have FPS caps.
 
Terpfen said:
Console games tie things like physics engines to cycle rate or FPS. If you unexpectedly increase speed or FPS, the engines screw up. This laziness, and the general lack of desire to untie calculations from FPS, is also why many Japanese game PC ports have FPS caps.
Click to expand...

I agree, that it definitely doesn't have to be that way. I wouldn't have called it laziness though until very recently. Since games consoles came into existence, developers have been able to count on them being uniform across the board, so that they could do things this way. Why bother developing for eventualities that weren't going to occur in their world? In fact, maybe less and less so as time went on, but developers used to be able to use undocumented tricks to squeeze out more performance, or create effects that weren't thought possible, which would probably also break if the machines were tweaked in any way. These days with multiplatform porting happening regularly, and now mid-cycle console upgrades, sure, they should definitely code in a more robust, general purpose sort of way. There is a lot of history to back up the way things have been done to this point though, and I wouldn't have classified it as potentially problematic until maybe the last few years.

There's a parallel in my electronics world. I design circuits for analog synthesizers. For the longest time, one could just design a circuit and count on good solid linear power supply rails being available, and use them as the reference voltages for the circuit. Well, time goes on, and now people want to use circuits on different voltage standards, linear and switching supplies of various types, etc. I've had to put precision voltage references into my designs now, so that A) the circuit functions across all these and B) heavy modifications aren't needed for the circuit to work on other commonly used voltages.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
cageymaru said:
Can't load the list of optimized games. I'd assume that some games may have some extra visuals or AA enabled. I would assume that all original and newer titles should run a little better on the new console. Just like upgrading your PC gives you a better framerate with older games.

Just my thoughts; not based on something that I read.
Click to expand...
Here's the list:
  • Battlefield 1
  • Battlezone
  • Bound
  • Call Of Duty: Black Ops 3
  • Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare
  • Call of Duty: Modern Warfare Remastered
  • Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
  • Dishonored 2
  • Driveclub VR
  • EA Sports FIFA 17
  • The Elders Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited
  • The Elders Scrolls: Skyrim Special Edition
  • Firewatch
  • Helldivers
  • Hitman
  • Hustle Kings
  • inFAMOUS First Light
  • inFAMOUS Second Son
  • Knack
  • The Last Of Us Remastered
  • The Last Of Us: Left Behind
  • Mafia III
  • Mantis Burn Racing
  • Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
  • NBA 2K17
  • Neon Chrome
  • Paragon
  • The Playroom VR
  • PlayStation VR Worlds
  • Ratchet & Clank
  • Rez Infinite
  • Ride 2
  • RIGS Mechanized Combat League
  • Rise Of The Tomb Raider
  • Robinson: The Journey
  • Smite
  • Super Stardust Ultra
  • Thumper
  • Titanfall 2
  • Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End
  • Until Dawn: Rush of Blood
  • Viking Squad
  • Wheels of Aurelia
  • World Of Tanks
  • XCOM 2
In addition to the titles listed above, more than 45 games will be optimised for PS4 Pro by the end of the year, including Watch Dogs 2, Killing Floor 2, The Last Guardian and Final Fantasy XV, with the likes of Nioh, Resident Evil 7 Biohazard and For Honor to follow in early 2017.

Further to that, all first party software launched in 2017 and beyond, including Gravity Rush 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Days Gone and Gran Turismo Sport, will enjoy the benefits of the world’s most powerful console.

We’ll be detailing select titles’ PS4 Pro enhancements right here on PlayStation Blog in the coming days and weeks. We’ve already heard from the Horizon Zero Dawn team at Guerrilla Games – look out for more soon.

J3RK said:
I agree, that it definitely doesn't have to be that way. I wouldn't have called it laziness though until very recently. Since games consoles came into existence, developers have been able to count on them being uniform across the board, so that they could do things this way. Why bother developing for eventualities that weren't going to occur in their world? In fact, maybe less and less so as time went on, but developers used to be able to use undocumented tricks to squeeze out more performance, or create effects that weren't thought possible, which would probably also break if the machines were tweaked in any way. These days with multiplatform porting happening regularly, and now mid-cycle console upgrades, sure, they should definitely code in a more robust, general purpose sort of way. There is a lot of history to back up the way things have been done to this point though, and I wouldn't have classified it as potentially problematic until maybe the last few years.

There's a parallel in my electronics world. I design circuits for analog synthesizers. For the longest time, one could just design a circuit and count on good solid linear power supply rails being available, and use them as the reference voltages for the circuit. Well, time goes on, and now people want to use circuits on different voltage standards, linear and switching supplies of various types, etc. I've had to put precision voltage references into my designs now, so that A) the circuit functions across all these and B) heavy modifications aren't needed for the circuit to work on other commonly used voltages.
Click to expand...
It's hard to synchronize engine modules in your update loop. Knowing that the game is going to update at a fixed time makes the process a whole lot easier. If you're going to be churning out games in 8-12 month cycles instead of 18-24 you'll have a tendency to take the easy way out.
 
This should have been the PS4 that we originally got. Overall, it's fairly decent.
 
You don't have to get the PRO guys, the reg PS4 is still good. But for 400$ it's a great deal. I'm getting it instead of getting another dam 300$-400$ card for my PC.
 
I got one, and I like it. While it may not be 100% native 4K without tricks, it does look nearly like 4K quality if the game supports it (only tried Last of Us so far).

If you're looking to get into 4K gaming, this is a really affordable option compared to a PC. Of course, nearly any PC game can run in 4K, while the PS4 Pro needs special support. But with a PC you could easily spend more than $400 on the GPU alone just to barely reach 4K in modern games.

Especially with 4K TVs become cheaper (the Samsung KU6300 I'm using is down to $300 on Black Friday), you could conceivably get: the console, a 4K TV, a pair of headphones, and a small collection of games for under a grand. That's pretty incredible.
 
cybereality said:
I got one, and I like it. While it may not be 100% native 4K without tricks, it does look nearly like 4K quality if the game supports it (only tried Last of Us so far).

If you're looking to get into 4K gaming, this is a really affordable option compared to a PC. Of course, nearly any PC game can run in 4K, while the PS4 Pro needs special support. But with a PC you could easily spend more than $400 on the GPU alone just to barely reach 4K in modern games.

Especially with 4K TVs become cheaper (the Samsung KU6300 I'm using is down to $300 on Black Friday), you could conceivably get: the console, a 4K TV, a pair of headphones, and a small collection of games for under a grand. That's pretty incredible.
Click to expand...

I'm enjoying might. Infamous at 4k with HDR is stunning.
 
Subzerok11 said:
You don't have to get the PRO guys, the reg PS4 is still good. But for 400$ it's a great deal. I'm getting it instead of getting another dam 300$-400$ card for my PC.
Click to expand...

The nice thing about the Pro is that it's already been discounted to $370 (ant online) or $340 (Amazon) depending on which specific retailer you pick. For $340 it's not that bad of a deal.

That said, the Pro's fans spin up and SCREAM when you try to run at 4K. I have a feeling the Xbox One Scorpio is going to be an overall better platform.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top