Indefinite Prison For Suspect Who Won’t Decrypt Hard Drives

Megalith

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A Philly cop is being kept behind bars because the Feds insist there is kiddy porn on his encrypted drives, yet some say the authorities’ confidence would imply that evidence is already on the table.

The government said Monday he should remain jailed indefinitely until he complies. The authorities also said that it's not a violation of the man's Fifth Amendment right against compelled self-incrimination because it's a "foregone conclusion" that illegal porn is on the drives and that he is only being asked to unlock the drives, not divulge their passcodes.
 

Crosshairs

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Wow,he is being held because he wont hand over drives that may implicate him....he belongs in jail if he is in fact guilty, but he hasn't even been charged with the supposed crime .
This is some scary stuff.


The suspect has not been charged with any child-porn related crimes, yet he is imprisoned in Philadelphia's Federal Detention Center for refusing to decrypt two drives encrypted with Apple's FileVault software in a case that highlights the federal government's war on encryption. A federal magistrate has ordered him imprisoned "until such time that he fully complies" with the decryption order.
 

sleepeeg3

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The authorities also said that it's not a violation of the man's Fifth Amendment right against compelled self-incrimination because it's a "foregone conclusion" that illegal porn is on the drives
So that would be the 6th Amendment they are violating, too...
 

Imhotep

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Haha, Government failing on so many levels. Can we talk about American Indians and the fact that black slaves were sold by blacks. Maybe we all just need to open our fucking eyes and smell the coffee.History aside.
Why is it up to government what is morally acceptable. Let just assume he has kiddy porn on his drives. Why not. As long as he is not part of it. I am more then convinced that some of these government clowns are even sicker than the guy in question. Its 21st century. Will I vote for a president in my lifetime that uses a slogan in his campaign. Lets stop being hypocrites. For a moment at least ....lol
 

CombatChrisNC

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He's not being forced to testify. He's being asked to unlock evidence already in possession of the authorities. Like unlocking a safe.

If he won't open it let him rot.
 

Lith1um

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You wonder why people hate America? Because of the truth. Because the shit that our government is getting enough balls to try on us now, is the shit that they've been doing to third world nations around the globe for the better part of a century. Civil rights don't benefit the government, they are merely an imposition.
 

UrielDagda

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They don't screw around with this stuff.. If they think you did it you're paying, whether or not they ever actually find anything. At the very least they'll stea... err take all your stuff and, even if they find nothing, you never get it back. Even then they'll try to bully you into admitting you did something for a while before they give up, leaving you hanging.

They are obsessed and if they can't get the goods on you, they get very, very pissed off.
 

MongGrel

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Not sure if it is the same guy, but I think he might have been busted for some other things in conjunction with this.
 

Imhotep

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Lol, Revolt against government. everyone kill an innocent little kitty in protest.
 

spintroniX

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....
Why is it up to government what is morally acceptable. Let just assume he has kiddy porn on his drives. Why not. As long as he is not part of it....
are you arguing that possession of kiddie porn should be legally and/or morally permissible, or am I misreading you?
 

Imhotep

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His sister gave him up.
It simply turns out to too many variables Will the jury decide.
 

/usr/sbin

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The government said Monday he should remain jailed indefinitely until he complies. The authorities also said that it's not a violation of the man's Fifth Amendment right against compelled self-incrimination because it's a "foregone conclusion" that illegal porn is on the drives and that he is only being asked to unlock the drives, not divulge their passcodes.
Bolded and underlined part: Any half decent lawyer should be able to get this tossed. If the argument is that it's a foregone conclusion, then they must have evidence that it is a foregone conclusion, therefore unlocking the drive is a moot point, they should be able to prove their case without the encrypted drive contents.

Second, you have no duty to help the police find things. If you suspect me of say... selling drugs from my home, you can show up with a warrant to search my home, but you don't get to toss me in prison "until I show you where the drugs are". The duty to locate evidence is on law enforcement and I have absolutely zero responsibility to help them by providing information to them.
 
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Let just assume he has kiddy porn on his drives. Why not. As long as he is not part of it. I am more then convinced that some of these government clowns are even sicker than the guy in question. Its 21st century. Will I vote for a president in my lifetime that uses a slogan in his campaign. Lets stop being hypocrites. For a moment at least ....lol
Well lets see, for 1, He either paid for it directly or indirectly through advertising money from a website he got it from, or from one of his sick buddies. 2, if it were legal to possess it, it would make it much more difficult to prosecute the making of it. 3 because of number 2, the incidence of it would increase.
Bolded and underlined part: Any half decent lawyer should be able to get this tossed. If the argument is that it's a foregone conclusion, then they must have evidence that it is a foregone conclusion, therefore unlocking the drive is a moot point, they should be able to prove their case without the encrypted drive contents.

Second, you have no duty to help the police find things. If you suspect me of say... selling drugs from my home, you can show up with a warrant to search my home, but you don't get to toss me in prison "until I show you where the drugs are". The duty to locate evidence is on law enforcement and I have absolutely zero responsibility to help them by providing information to them.
OK lets say the drugs are in an uncrackable safe and you know they are in a safe because bloodhounds are going apeshit when they smell the safe. What now?
 

Semantics

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Self incrimination doesn't protect you from your stuff unless said stuff incrimates you by existing. So a key to your safe can be requested because a key in itself isn't incriminating although the stuff in the safe cannot be requested by a court. That being said it tends to pertain to physical objects decryption of hard drives becomes a sticker issue because it often require recollection of a password which would be protected, assuming a person did not use a usb key to encrypt it. That being said if you kept a physical copy of the code say on a piece of paper and a credible witness saw said piece of paper the courts could demand that piece of paper.

One can be held in contempt of court for as long as the crime they are being charged with maximum sentencing after which it ends as time served. Outside of that you can be held in contempt indefinitely if you are not being charged with anything but asked to comply with a court order it's up to the judges discretion at that point.
 

Imhotep

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Full circle around. Studies have shown that a ray of light can be in two places at the same time. According to quantum physics. Does a rock exist if you don't look at it. is it simply there all the time.
 

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OK lets say the drugs are in an uncrackable safe and you know they are in a safe because bloodhounds are going apeshit when they smell the safe. What now?
Considering Report: Drug-Sniffing Dogs Are Wrong More Often Than Right I'd hardly call that foregone conclusion. If you want to hold the standard to "foregone conclusion" based on methodology that is wrong more often than it is correct, that's up to you, but to any sane person that's a pretty scary and ludicrous position to take.
 

Spidey329

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It could be legal marijuana in the safe.
Or dog biscuits!



The guy's likely scumbag. But I don't see why he should be forced to comply. He should just fall and hit his head hard enough to get a concussion, then he can claim amnesia. What then? How can you comply if you don't remember the password?

I'd assume we're going to see more and more of this as time goes on. Eventually, SCOTUS might have to make a clarification on these things.
 

steakman1971

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I'm totally against kiddie porn and hope anyone associated with it gets prosecuted. Keeping in mind that I am not a lawyer, this does seem to be a violation of his rights. If he gives the password up, is this not incriminating him (if its even on the drive in the first place)?
We've always been told the US is about freedom and justice. This is not necessarily the case. As long as you do what you are told and don't piss off the government, it pretty much is. Cross the wrong person/department - you are screwed.
 

westrock2000

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are you arguing that possession of kiddie porn should be legally and/or morally permissible, or am I misreading you?
Murdering a person is illegal, is it illegal to watch a video of someone murdering another person on the Internet? I mean think about that.....you can watch a video of someone murdering someone else, and absolutely no one questions it. But watch a video of a child being abused and you are charged as if you abused the kid yourself.

Heres a story about a guy who was sent to jail for importing hentai from Japan because it had representations of underage children as well as beastiality. The governments argument was that even though it wasn't actually child pornography, when he looked at it, he "imagined" it being real.....thus he was committing child abuse.
 

Gorankar

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How do you prove he did not forget?

If it really is a forgone conclusion, get a conviction without it. If you can't, then it was not really a forgone conclusion.

My take is that the government needs to break into it their self. Same as they would a safe if the accused refused to give you the combination.
Indefinite detention without charges, I was against it when it was considered for that POS Susan McDougal that refused to testify against the Clinton's during the whitewater scandal, and I am against it here as well.
 

ManofGod

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Wow,he is being held because he wont hand over drives that may implicate him....he belongs in jail if he is in fact guilty, but he hasn't even been charged with the supposed crime .
This is some scary stuff.
It is a terrible thing but not really scary anymore. In fact, it is not surprising since we have been giving up our freedoms at a much more rapid pace than ever before.
 

Mut1ny

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Murdering a person is illegal, is it illegal to watch a video of someone murdering another person on the Internet? I mean think about that.....you can watch a video of someone murdering someone else, and absolutely no one questions it. But watch a video of a child being abused and you are charged as if you abused the kid yourself.

Heres a story about a guy who was sent to jail for importing hentai from Japan because it had representations of underage children as well as beastiality. The governments argument was that even though it wasn't actually child pornography, when he looked at it, he "imagined" it being real.....thus he was committing child abuse.
I have to agree with this to an extent. I doubt that some of the amateur Chatterbate videos I've seen are ALL chicks over 18...it's basically an impossibility. So because of that, if one cared too, I could face prison time for viewing "underage pornography" on that alone. Did I create it? No. Did I pay for someone to create it? No. Do I even know who the chick in the video is? No. So other than seeing some underage chick in a video (which the pornography site should censor) I did nothing wrong. Do I deserve prison time for that?

So although I don't condone kiddy porn at all I just fail to see what the big freakin deal is if you just have it on your PC and did nothing to actually aid in it's creation. If you are paying people to abuse children or it's videos of you doing it then fuck yeah, burn'em! But just you acquiring it from some website that already has it in no way perpetrates it's creation in my mind. It's not like someone goes "oh hey someone downloaded my video so I guess that's a sign that it's OK and that I should continue raping my child!". Come on now...

I don't know, I guess I just see it as something that's going to happen anyways and if all you're doing is downloading it and have no hand in it's creation than I don't see where decade+ long prison sentences make sense. Rehab and/or counselling sure but just locking people up just doesn't make sense for a ACTUAL crime they didn't commit.

But I guess that's just America for you. Just lock people up all willy nilly like and do nothing to actually try and help them. More criminals come out of prisons and jails than go into them.

you can watch a video of someone murdering someone else, and absolutely no one questions it. But watch a video of a child being abused and you are charged as if you abused the kid yourself.
This to me is a very strong and valid comment. Especially in the media today. Have a TV show of someone getting killed? No problem! Show someone shooting up heroin? Cool! Show a female nipple? SHUT IT DOWN!!!

If simply viewing kiddy porn is illegal then why are snuff videos fine? I can go watch someone die or torture innocent animals on YouTube right now no problem. Why is that OK? I guess I just find the obsession with kiddy porn and nothing else so...weird? Again, no condoning it at all it just seems like such a double standard.
 
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But just you acquiring it from some website that already has it in no way perpetrates it's creation in my mind. It's not like someone goes "oh hey someone downloaded my video so I guess that's a sign that it's OK and that I should continue raping my child!". Come on now...
Wait, WTF are you talking about? It creates more demand for it, for starters you're/they're new there and able to access it, and then off to find more. Then the more views 'some website' has it increases their ad revenue and allows them to continue on and expand. It may not be directly promoting it but it sure the hell is indirectly promoting it. It's like you're seeing someone getting their ass whooped but you turn your head the other way and then claim you didn't see it happen.

On top of that what kind of person even wants to view that shit, I'd rather watch someone die from CCTV footage as that reminds me to have more situational awareness in my life or possibly not have a life. A lot (most) of the videos I've watched of people dying are from either ISIS or security camera footage and we understand that one is a terrorist organization releasing extreme propaganda (new ISIS rock crushing execution video?) and the other is your standard catching something that....just happened, naturally. Huge difference IMO.


EDIT: Come to think of it, I doubt these kinds of sites even have ads but I don't actually know or want to find out.
 
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Mut1ny

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Look, all I'm saying is that I just don't feel that just watching some kiddy porn deserves the harsh ass punishments that get handed out for it. You can murder someone and get less of a punishment (not to mention not be on the sex offenders list that follows you forever). That doesn't make any sense. We should be more into finding the source of peoples mental issues with stuff like this instead of just locking them up as if they actually did the molesting and fucked the kid up forever.

Again, videos of people getting murdered isn't illegal. Videos of people using hard drugs isn't illegal. Why? Because you, the viewer, didn't actually DO those illegal activities. So why then is child porn no just viewed as somehow being different but so harshly punished on top of it. It's not support I'm wanting, it's just common sense I'd ask for. It's like some Minority Report where you're arresting people for a crime they didn't commit.
 
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Again, videos of people getting murdered isn't illegal. Videos of people using hard drugs isn't illegal. Why?
Probably because it actually helps the cops catch the bad guys. Educational to everyone else. Plus they just might do this very thing in the future to be honest. Thought police and viewing crimes coming to an internet near you.
 

Mut1ny

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Probably because it actually helps the cops catch the bad guys. Educational to everyone else. Plus they just might do this very thing in the future to be honest. Thought police and viewing crimes coming to an internet near you.
Eh, I don't really buy your counter points. Nothing against you but the truth could be said about kiddy vids too. Regardless, my point stands. It's wrong to condemn one type of video doing horrible things to the point of ruining someones life forever vs. not doing a single goddamn thing about other horrible videos that can be, if anything, more emotionally scaring for the person watching them (like watching someone get a knife shoved through their throat as their blood curdled screams in agony go unnoticed).
 
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Eh, I don't really buy your counter points. Nothing against you but the truth could be said about kiddy vids too. Regardless, my point stands.
I don't think it does still stand to be honest. From the little I know of it the people making kid porn aren't going to be in it showing their faces as it's a forethought/preplanned crime while catching something on video out in public (where everyone has a smartphone and CCTV's are everywhere) is catching a crime occurring on the spot (in real time) and thousands/tens of thousands of arrests are made from this footage alone annually just in the USA.

It's wrong to condemn one type of video doing horrible things to the point of ruining someones life forever vs. not doing a single goddamn thing about other horrible videos that can be, if anything, more emotionally scaring for the person watching them (like watching someone get a knife shoved through their throat as their blood curdled screams in agony go unnoticed).
The argument you're making would have all videos deemed by the US GOV outlawed and a prisonable offense because people currently love their children more than anything else. Most of the death videos we see are from people 18 and older that know life's a wicked world but little kids are supposed to be protected safely in their parents homes. If they have the enemy in the home, well, he/she should be taken out of the home and hung high on the nearest tree.
 

Mut1ny

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I don't think it does still stand to be honest. From the little I know of it the people making kid porn aren't going to be in it showing their faces as it's a forethought/preplanned crime while catching something on video out in public (where everyone has a smartphone and CCTV's are everywhere) is catching a crime occurring on the spot (in real time) and thousands/tens of thousands of arrests are made from this footage alone annually just in the USA.
Bad videos are bad situations are bad period. Doesn't matter how it's captured. I don't really get what your argument here is. And I'm not just talking some CCTV videos. There are personal hand shot videos every day of people or animals being killed and tortured. Those aren't illegal. It's not like SOME murder videos are illegal and some aren't.

The argument you're making would have all videos deemed by the US GOV outlawed and a prisonable offense because people currently love their children more than anything else. Most of the death videos we see are from people 18 and older that know life's a wicked world but little kids are supposed to be protected safely in their parents homes. If they have the enemy in the home, well, he/she should be taken out of the home and hung high on the nearest tree.
This is an emotion based argument and it's clouding your judgment on what's actually sensible. A child being molested is somehow worse then someone being tortured to death? Bad is bad. Wrong is wrong. If one bad video is punishable by prison time then why shouldn't they all be? If most aren't then why should some be? Again, it's a double standard. It's wrong because I say it's wrong while that other stuff is OK because I just don't care enough, not because it's less worse. You see? What's the difference?
 
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