Ignorant gamer needs some coaching

[lcpiper]

OK, I know some shit about computers, and I'm a gamer.

Nothing unusual here at all.

Now I'm not crazy about audio, but I do miss the days when my Medusa 5.1s let me here what I believed was great positional audio.

So now it's years later and I am long satisfied with my audio and don't know how to improve it. I'm using onboard audio to a USB HyperX Cloud II headset and the builtin speakers of my Acer X34 monitor over the display port connection.

I'm not out to spend huge money although I'm running a $1000+ monitor so that should say something as well.
I'm looking at going to an external mic like a Blue Snowball, maybe even a Yeti, and some speakers with a nice set of headphones. If I can get 3-D positional out of this with the headphones great, through some speakers as well, even better.

I like the looks of Schitt, I don't know if I need a DAC and Amp etc. Llok for some educating.

 

[Bandalo]

It really depends on two things...your budget and your ears.

There are "good" headphone options from $50 to $10,000. Similar problem with speakers, and DACs, and amps.

3-D positional audio for gaming will restrict your choice of DAC/AMP a lot, since it's not a common feature.

As for your ears, it all depends on you and how much difference you can personally tell between two sets of headphones, or two amps, or two settings on a DAC. Some people can't hear a difference, some people's head will explode if they're not using $5k worth of gold-and-cocaine plated audio cables rolled on the inner thigh of a japanese virgin at midnight during a full moon.


Personally, I run a SoundBlaster G5 DAC/amp for the positional audio. Gives great sound IMO to the speakers I use (Corsair 2500 2.1 speaker set from years go), and a $100 set of Sony Studio over-ear headphones. The positional audio works very well for most games, and the software lets you switch to movie & music modes easily, and they make all the media sound great on the headphones. I've tried the onboard audio, and a SB X card in the past, and the DAC has been the nicest, less "hum and buzz" than the other options, easy to use, less intrusive software, etc.

 

[lcpiper]

I'm too dumb or something, I don't know how you get positional audio from a 2.1 set.

So I have the old sound card I use to use with my medusa's which to me, produced amazing positional audio, so I suppose the card is good still, although that was in the WinXP days when Direct3D DirectSound was in existence.

It's an HT Omega card, even has SPDIF Optical In and OUT along with enough 3.5 jacks to connect a spaghetti machine too. DTS capable.

I couldn't say that I have a great ear, too many years shooting and blowing things up in the Army, but I can tell when something is making noise behind me to my left or right, ain't deaf yet. And I have money, but when I look at a $500 dollar preamp/DAC Jotunhiem from Schitt I get that feeling like it's too much, which means that it's more than I want to spend for what it's supposed to do for me. So let's say I need a mic, I'd probably buy a Blue Snowball instead of the Yeti. If it would be useful I'd use this old sound card, I did before, just couldn't find decent headphones to use with it that were 5.1s with separate 3.5mm jacks for the channels. But if I could by some sort of amp that I could run the optical OUT from the HT Omega to, and connect both speakers and headphones to it, I think that is what I am looking for.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

So, a couple of things:

1. For audio, if you're going to spend money, spend it on the headphones and mic first. There are certainly 'floors' where not spending enough can get you something actually terrible, but they're not very high.
2. This stuff is intensely personal, so reviews and recommendations can only get you so far- you're going to have to try stuff to find out what you like, what matters and what doesn't, etc.
3. You can get passable 'surround' from 2.1 speakers, but you can get great surround from a pair of stereo headphones. It's science! [research HRTF for reference] So don't buy 'surround headphones' that have multiple drivers per ear. You only have two ears.

Now, a couple of things: I have a Blue Snowball. Plug-and-play, very good sound, and also large. Its stand adds to the height quite a bit, and if you recline back, it can block your view. I do recommend research here on your part, as beyond using the Snowball, I don't know what else is out there.

Next, we need to know what HT Omega card you have (it's like saying, 'I have a soundblaster'). The biggest concerns with sound cards are that they a) don't introduce noise and b) actually have the ability to power whatever headphones you're using.

For a), essentially what you need is to be able to turn the volume up to just beyond maximum reasonable listening levels with no sound playing, and hear nothing.
For b), headphones can vary in impedance from about 25Ω to 600Ω, and your sound card (which is a DAC and amp) or discrete amp needs to be able to handle whatever you buy.


And for the quick end-run: look at Sennheiser's Game Zero and Game One headsets. The Game Zero is closed, with more bass and isolation, while the one I'd recommend is the Game One, which is open-backed and has a more expansive soundstage. Both of these will work well with your current soundcard (well, any soundcard), as they're quite low impedance.

 

[B00nie]

In order to get positional audio from a 2.1 set you need to have a good room (acoustics), good speakers and you have to sit close to the speakers and exactly in the sweet spot. Large electrostatic panels give a holographic effect where you really don't need rear channels anymore. The downside is it works only for 1 person at a time but while gaming I guess that's ok.

The downside naturally is that large panels cost 10k+ and require something larger than a concrete closet which typical apartment building rooms are.

Good near field monitors work also pretty good. Genelec, Adam audio, JBL 3xx, 7xx, Studio 530 (preowned) etc.

 

[Lizard Testes]

In order to get positional audio from a 2.1 set you need to have a good room (acoustics), good speakers and you have to sit close to the speakers and exactly in the sweet spot. Large electrostatic panels give a holographic effect where you really don't need rear channels anymore. The downside is it works only for 1 person at a time but while gaming I guess that's ok.

The downside naturally is that large panels cost 10k+ and require something larger than a concrete closet which typical apartment building rooms are.

Good near field monitors work also pretty good. Genelec, Adam audio, JBL 3xx, 7xx, Studio 530 (preowned) etc.

So if I spend 10 grand on an electrostatic 2.1 system all of a sudden I get surround sound?

 

[B00nie]

So if I spend 10 grand on an electrostatic 2.1 system all of a sudden I get surround sound?

In the sweet spot, yes. The sound is very 3D. You have to hear it to believe it.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Or, you know, spend a few bucks on headphones.

[also, you can get surround software from Razer and others that will work with any stereo cans...]

 

[Lizard Testes]

In the sweet spot, yes. The sound is very 3D. You have to hear it to believe it.

How does the 2.1 system know what sounds are supposed to be behind me, vs what are supposed to be in front of me?

Also how do you sit very close to large electrostatic panels in a PC situation?

 

[B00nie]

How does the 2.1 system know what sounds are supposed to be behind me, vs what are supposed to be in front of me?

Also how do you sit very close to large electrostatic panels in a PC situation?

How do your ears know which sound comes from where? Do you have 7.1 ears? It's called phase information. The delay and phase of the sound give positional ques to your brain - but only if the speakers can produce the signal extremely accurately. Regular PC speakers can never achieve it.

You asked how can you get positional sound from 2.1 - not if it's reasonable to build as a pc setup. Active near field monitors are your go-to solution for PC.

Near field is the key here because special speakers listened very close give you that same sort of pure reflection free sound like the big panels do. You just have to listen a lot closer.

 

[illram]

I'm too dumb or something, I don't know how you get positional audio from a 2.1 set.

So I have the old sound card I use to use with my medusa's which to me, produced amazing positional audio, so I suppose the card is good still, although that was in the WinXP days when Direct3D DirectSound was in existence.

It's an HT Omega card, even has SPDIF Optical In and OUT along with enough 3.5 jacks to connect a spaghetti machine too. DTS capable.

I couldn't say that I have a great ear, too many years shooting and blowing things up in the Army, but I can tell when something is making noise behind me to my left or right, ain't deaf yet. And I have money, but when I look at a $500 dollar preamp/DAC Jotunhiem from Schitt I get that feeling like it's too much, which means that it's more than I want to spend for what it's supposed to do for me. So let's say I need a mic, I'd probably buy a Blue Snowball instead of the Yeti. If it would be useful I'd use this old sound card, I did before, just couldn't find decent headphones to use with it that were 5.1s with separate 3.5mm jacks for the channels. But if I could by some sort of amp that I could run the optical OUT from the HT Omega to, and connect both speakers and headphones to it, I think that is what I am looking for.

SoundBlaster X7. Solves all your problems. Has great positional audio. Supports speakers. Can use a mic (has one built in also.) Amp is more than capable but if you want you can use optical or RCA out to an amp later if you want to upgrade the amp. Usually goes on sale.

Buy it and never think about this stuff again.

 

[B00nie]

Soundblaster X7 doesn't solve any of his problems, actually. It has only two small power amplifiers (putting out 25 watts at a gigantic 10% distortion to 8ohm) so you can't build a surround setup with it even if you had enough speakers.

What he needs is hdmi audio and a home theater receiver that enables him to set up a proper surround sound (if that's what he's looking for). A 200 dollar Onkyo HT receiver and 4-5 Pioneer SP-BS22-lr speakers is about the minimum to get a good result.

 

[michalrz]

gold-and-cocaine plated audio cables rolled on the inner thigh of a japanese virgin at midnight during a full moon.

Don't forget the special pebbles you place in key points in your room and on your gear's casing.

I'm too dumb or something, I don't know how you get positional audio from a 2.1 set.

It's called phase information. The delay and phase of the sound give positional ques to your brain - but only if the speakers can produce the signal extremely accurately.

Trying to add to whatever b00nie says about audio is like farting in the back seat of a car with the hope of making it go faster.

But I'll try.

A lot of the positional aspects of sound comes from the shape of your ear canal and ear lobe.
It's like you have a 'lens' between the world and your eardrum.
Early in life you learn (by experience) how your 'frequency response' correlates with the direction of the sound's origin.

Someone you're talking to can have a deep voice but it won't carry enough low frequency content if the person is standing far away. Also, you tend to get much less reverb when there's a lot of snow around.
When it's raining and everything is wet, you can sometimes hear echoes of your own footsteps which you wouldn't otherwise hear.

So, any speaker can try to mimic this 'phase information' and/or frequency spectrum which corresponds to spatial data.

Some bits edited in:
Room acoustics is as important as your choice of transducer. You really have to be prepared to make some changes. Move your furniture around to make it as symmetrical (with respect to the speakers) as possible.
Move your speakers away from the side and rear walls. If you have a large room and right angled corners on the wall opposite your speakers, try putting a piece of furniture or a plant or whatever in those corners to break standing waves. For headphones, go for the open ones.

More edited in shite:
Oh, and with speakers you will probably be unable to impress anyone, because their very presence will break the soundstage. Meet in groups of three

 

[RogueTadhg]

... Some people can't hear a difference, some people's head will explode if they're not using $5k worth of gold-and-cocaine plated audio cables rolled on the inner thigh of a japanese virgin at midnight during a full moon. ...

You've got a link to those audio cables? I need to give those an audition on my casting couch.

 

[lcpiper]

Soundblaster X7 doesn't solve any of his problems, actually. It has only two small power amplifiers (putting out 25 watts at a gigantic 10% distortion to 8ohm) so you can't build a surround setup with it even if you had enough speakers.

What he needs is hdmi audio and a home theater receiver that enables him to set up a proper surround sound (if that's what he's looking for). A 200 dollar Onkyo HT receiver and 4-5 Pioneer SP-BS22-lr speakers is about the minimum to get a good result.

Truthfully I would be happy with a good headphone setup that would work for the 5.1. Freeing myself of the headphones is usually when I am kicking back playing a single player game. I actually still have an old Creative 5.1 system that they sold as a cheaper alernative to the earlyier Klipse Promedia 5.1 sets. Maybe I should just drop this sound card into my computer and run an optical out to the old sound blaster amp unit for my speakers and set those little guys back up and see how they do.

 

[B00nie]

Truthfully I would be happy with a good headphone setup that would work for the 5.1. Freeing myself of the headphones is usually when I am kicking back playing a single player game. I actually still have an old Creative 5.1 system that they sold as a cheaper alernative to the earlyier Klipse Promedia 5.1 sets. Maybe I should just drop this sound card into my computer and run an optical out to the old sound blaster amp unit for my speakers and set those little guys back up and see how they do.

Then just get proper headphones (Philips for example has a very good price/quality model) and enable windows surround in the sound settings. Sennheiser has also good gaming headsets (G4me zero/one)

 

[RogueTadhg]

I can't recommend the Game One's. They get uncomfortable for long periods of time. For me atleast.

 

[illram]

Then just get proper headphones (Philips for example has a very good price/quality model) and enable windows surround in the sound settings. Sennheiser has also good gaming headsets (G4me zero/one)

Windows Sonic surround is inferior to SBX and usually doesn't even work.

If you want headphone surround and also want the option for 2 channel shelf speakers the X7 is the way to go. Unless you feel like spending $2k on a Smyth Realiser A16...

If you just want headphone surround consider the Soundblaster E5 or the Sennheiser GSX 1000.

 

[B00nie]

Windows Sonic surround is inferior to SBX and usually doesn't even work.

If you want headphone surround and also want the option for 2 channel shelf speakers the X7 is the way to go. Unless you feel like spending $2k on a Smyth Realiser A16...

If you just want headphone surround consider the Soundblaster E5 or the Sennheiser GSX 1000.

The X7 is a total gimmick. It has crappy amps that can barely drive a regular speaker. A dedicated sound card + desktop amp is way superior as a solution.

 

[rezerekted]

Then just get proper headphones (Philips for example has a very good price/quality model)

I just ordered a pair of Philips SH9500 from newegg for $60.00 CAD. I have decent headphones already like beyer DT990pro, Senn HD558 and Shure 840 but people say these Philips are really good for the price so wanted to hear for myself.

 

[lcpiper]

I just ordered a pair of Philips SH9500 from newegg for $60.00 CAD. I have decent headphones already like beyer DT990pro, Senn HD558 and Shure 840 but people say these Philips are really good for the price so wanted to hear for myself.

I'd be really interested in what you find out about them rezerekted since you have invested in several other nice sets, you possess the means to make a solid personal recommendation.

 

[rezerekted]

I'd be really interested in what you find out about them rezerekted since you have invested in several other nice sets, you possess the means to make a solid personal recommendation.

They arrived today and have already tested them with music and games but haven't compared them back to back with my other headphones. Initial impressions are very good and the top end is clear and detailed. There is bass but not overpowering bass. They are very good with jazz and classical. Tested in Battlefield4 and it was good there too but not as much bass as I know my DT990pro have. They leak sound more than my other open headphones so these are not good to use around people.

OK, compared them against DT990pro and HD558. They sound similar to HD558 but with more clarity on the top end. These headphones are very comfortable too and are now my new all-around headphones for music and games. One thing is certain, they sound like a $200 headphone and not a $60 headphone. Anyone on a tight budget would be wise to buy the Philips SHP9500.

 

[illram]

The X7 is a total gimmick. It has crappy amps that can barely drive a regular speaker. A dedicated sound card + desktop amp is way superior as a solution.

Not really. I'm surprised you hate it so much. No one who has tried it or reviewed it has such harsh words for it. Doesn't sound like you've tried it? Especially if you're recommending Windows Sonic over it. I've tested it extensively versus Sonic and Atmos and Razer surround and its way better than all three. Night and day. The only VSS I have not tested it against is Sennheisers. Reviews indicate it's possibly better and at least equal, and the X7s amp section is more powerful than the GSX1000. It drives my HD800S at uncomfortably loud levels if I wanted it to.

It compares favorably with other nice amps in it's price bracket. I personally think it goes toe to toe with the ifi iDSD Black Label for instance, a well reviewed dedicated headphone amp that I also own. Its speaker amp section even drives my floorstander Polk monitor70s to ear splitting levels, better than my NAD D3020, but I hardly use those anymore anyway.

If speakers are more important there is also an LE version that adds more power.

Dunno man, not sure why you think it's a gimmick but it's definitely not.

 

[B00nie]

Not really. I'm surprised you hate it so much. No one who has tried it or reviewed it has such harsh words for it. Doesn't sound like you've tried it? Especially if you're recommending Windows Sonic over it. I've tested it extensively versus Sonic and Atmos and Razer surround and its way better than all three. Night and day. The only VSS I have not tested it against is Sennheisers. Reviews indicate it's possibly better and at least equal, and the X7s amp section is more powerful than the GSX1000. It drives my HD800S at uncomfortably loud levels if I wanted it to.

It compares favorably with other nice amps in it's price bracket. I personally think it goes toe to toe with the ifi iDSD Black Label for instance, a well reviewed dedicated headphone amp that I also own. Its speaker amp section even drives my floorstander Polk monitor70s to ear splitting levels, better than my NAD D3020, but I hardly use those anymore anyway.

If speakers are more important there is also an LE version that adds more power.

Dunno man, not sure why you think it's a gimmick but it's definitely not.

For surround purposes and for any speaker that's not very sensitive, it is. 25 watts at 10% distortion? Come on.

You're going to need a desktop amplifier to run the surround channels in any case so why not get a regular soundblaster and an AV amp?

 

[IdiotInCharge]

I get where B00nie is coming from here.

So X7 for cans, regular SB for speakers- makes sense to me, if you must have a Creative product (mostly, Creative software).

 

[illram]

OP's said a few times now he wants surround headphones. Not surround speakers. X7 does headphone surround very well. Of the generic HRTF solutions I have tried, it is the best by a long shot as well as the most useful given its Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding.

Not sure why we are so focused on speakers. In any case the speaker outs are still capable enough as I have already said; a useful bonus if that's a secondary use.

 

[B00nie]

OP's said a few times now he wants surround headphones. Not surround speakers. X7 does headphone surround very well. Of the generic HRTF solutions I have tried, it is the best by a long shot as well as the most useful given its Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding.

Not sure why we are so focused on speakers. In any case the speaker outs are still capable enough as I have already said; a useful bonus if that's a secondary use.

Why not plug the headphones then directly to the sound card. Where do you need the X7?

 

[illram]

Because it seems his HT Omega only does "surround" with the old Medusa headphone which had 5 drivers in it with discrete channels. It's not a software VSS solution. So he'd need another headset like that, but I can't recommend headphones with discrete drivers for surround. Too expensive, not as effective as VSS, sounds worse due to the limitation of multiple tiny drivers vs. 2 good ones.

 

[spaceman]

What boonie said is right. I have a soundblaster zx bc I have a 1982 Sansui AU-D33 receiver which is just a tad bit prior to hdmi. That and a pair of decent diy bookshelves and a small sub in a properly seated 2.1 gives me fairly good surround. I hear things behind me. Which freaks people out btw. lol

A $200 modern receiver and those pioneer speakers will blow your mind. Add a $100-250 sub and wowsers.

 

[lb_felipe]

B00nie, which would be your choice, disregarding price, ADAM F7 or JBL LSR305?

 

[B00nie]

B00nie, which would be your choice, disregarding price, ADAM F7 or JBL LSR305?

I own a pair of LSR305 but I have heard the F7 only in a shop so I can't give a definitive answer. I think both will be good. The ribbon tweeter of the F7 may make a difference but you'd need to compare them in your actual room.

 

[lcpiper]

Because it seems his HT Omega only does "surround" with the old Medusa headphone which had 5 drivers in it with discrete channels. It's not a software VSS solution. So he'd need another headset like that, but I can't recommend headphones with discrete drivers for surround. Too expensive, not as effective as VSS, sounds worse due to the limitation of multiple tiny drivers vs. 2 good ones.

Ummm, I would definitely recommend separate drivers for 5.1 , the Medusa's were heavy, but not too heavy, they were expensive, but not too expensive. No one here is going to claim $150 is too expensive for a top of the line product in a headphone category. The problem is, the Medusas are not the Medusas anymore. Yes I know, hurts the brain. But the long and short of it is that I have not been able to find a set as good as the old Medusas and even if I did, without DirectSound it's a moot point because the middleware just doesn't support true 5.1 anymore. The software we have is a bullshit cludge.

 

[illram]

Ummm, I would definitely recommend separate drivers for 5.1 , the Medusa's were heavy, but not too heavy, they were expensive, but not too expensive. No one here is going to claim $150 is too expensive for a top of the line product in a headphone category. The problem is, the Medusas are not the Medusas anymore. Yes I know, hurts the brain. But the long and short of it is that I have not been able to find a set as good as the old Medusas and even if I did, without DirectSound it's a moot point because the middleware just doesn't support true 5.1 anymore. The software we have is a bullshit cludge.

Sure it does. Good modern virtual surround DSPs, such as SBX or Sennheiser or Out of Your Head or, on a different tier the Smyth Realiser product line, will be better or at least equal to surround headphones with multiple separate drivers for positional accuracy. Perhaps more importantly, the audio quality of any quality 2 driver headphone will be superior, and for less money than any of the multiple driver surround headphones available. I recommend giving some of the available DSPs out there a try with a decent open-backed stereo headphone.

I say "too expensive" because if you're paying a couple hundred bucks for headphones you don't want them to sound like tinny bullshit.

 

[lcpiper]

Good modern virtual surround DSPs, such as SBX or Sennheiser or Dolby Headphones, will be better or at least equal to surround headphones with multiple separate drivers for positional accuracy. Perhaps more importantly, the audio quality of any quality 2 driver headphone will be superior, and for less money than any of the multiple driver surround headphones available. I recommend giving some of the available DSPs out there a try with a decent open-backed stereo headphone.

I say "too expensive" because if you're paying a couple hundred bucks for headphones you don't want them to sound like tinny bullshit.

But you never experienced the Medusa 5.1s back in the WinXP days right?

I don't recall them sounding tinny, I remember only awesome sound that was precise to a great degree. I have never heard it's like again so I can't help but wonder if other people just don't get it because they have never heard anything like it in their lives. To be accused of cheating because your sound setup is so good is ... well... it's from another time.

To be able to hear someone running down the street on the other side of the block and voice your team mate telling him he has at least two coming his way from the church all by sound.

 

[illram]

I don't know but all of the modern multiple driver surround headphones are not well reviewed as far as the quality of their audio. Do you not have the Medusa's anymore I assume? If not then all I am saying is today, a surround DSP and a good headphone is the way to go.

 

[lcpiper]

I don't know but all of the modern multiple driver surround headphones are not well reviewed as far as the quality of their audio. Do you not have the Medusa's anymore I assume? If not then all I am saying is today, a surround DSP and a good headphone is the way to go.

After about two years use, my first pair broke at the plastic headband. I bought a newer pair and the headband had been redesigned. That pair cracked at the place where the ear-cup joins the headband within just a couple months so I did not replace them. During this time, Vista released, and shortly after, I took a job in Iraq as a contractor. Naturally I didn't take my gaming system and bought a laptop instead and used it for gaming and although Asus didn't support XP on that laptop, I was able to load it anyway and found XP drivers for other laptops that had common components in order to make it all work. But as a laptop it wasn't capable of doing 5.1 audio, can't put a sound card in a laptop like that. So I really was just living without 5.1 through necessity for awhile.

I returned from Iraq and decided my work kept me mobile enough, I stayed with laptop gaming through another Asus gaming laptop, a G-something, then replaced it with a Razer Blade. Finally I stopped traveling so much and decided to build a new gaming rig and I put that old sound card in there and started looking for good 5.1s that had actual 3.5mm connections for all the channels. Went through a few and nothing sounded right, nothing came close to that old medusa magic.

Then I learned something I had not been aware of during those years gaming on laptops, Microsoft removed the DirectSound API when they released Vista and quite simply, they had removed the capability for games to talk to the drivers for 5.1 sound cards, no connecting software, (middleware). They said it was mostly due to the instability sound card drivers, remember back when systems used to crash you'd always get the sound hanging up with a horrible racket? Even if a crash wasn't because of a sound related problem, many people believed it was sound because that's what they heard, the sound hung up. So MS just cut it out and went to supporting only 2D sound. All the great headsets in the world connected to the best 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards made can't produce accurate positional sound without software connecting the game to the drivers.

So that is how I got where I am and why when someone says they get good positional audio from a 2 channel setup I can't help but doubt and wonder if it's just because the person has never experienced the old setups.

Now I have to go look up what a DSP is, I'm guessing it's a Digital Sound Processor but then I have to get an understanding for what it actually does, TY.

 

[illram]

After about two years use, my first pair broke at the plastic headband. I bought a newer pair and the headband had been redesigned. That pair cracked at th youe place where the ear-cup joins the headband within just a couple months so I did not replace them. During this time, Vista released, and shortly after, I took a job in Iraq as a contractor. Naturally I didn't take my gaming system and bought a laptop instead and used it for gaming and although Asus didn't support XP on that laptop, I was able to load it anyway and found XP drivers for other laptops that had common components in order to make it all work. But as a laptop it wasn't capable of doing 5.1 audio, can't put a sound card in a laptop like that. So I really was just living without 5.1 through necessity for awhile.

I returned from Iraq and decided my work kept me mobile enough, I stayed with laptop gaming through another Asus gaming laptop, a G-something, then replaced it with a Razer Blade. Finally I stopped traveling so much and decided to build a new gaming rig and I put that old sound card in there and started looking for good 5.1s that had actual 3.5mm connections for all the channels. Went through a few and nothing sounded right, nothing came close to that old medusa magic.

Then I learned something I had not been aware of during those years gaming on laptops, Microsoft removed the DirectSound API when they released Vista and quite simply, they had removed the capability for games to talk to the drivers for 5.1 sound cards, no connecting software, (middleware). They said it was mostly due to the instability sound card drivers, remember back when systems used to crash you'd always get the sound hanging up with a horrible racket? Even if a crash wasn't because of a sound related problem, many people believed it was sound because that's what they heard, the sound hung up. So MS just cut it out and went to supporting only 2D sound. All the great headsets in the world connected to the best 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards made can't produce accurate positional sound without software connecting the game to the drivers.

So that is how I got where I am and why when someone says they get good positional audio from a 2 channel setup I can't help but doubt and wonder if it's just because the person has never experienced the old setups.

Now I have to go look up what a DSP is, I'm guessing it's a Digital Sound Processor but then I have to get an understanding for what it actually does, TY.

Yes, a DSP means Digital Signal Processor. For surround it can also be called a VSS or virtual surround sound.

Windows surround sound in headphones has changed since Vista and XP but it still exists and is still effective. I think it's just less reliant on the game having it's own 3d sound processing versus Windows dictating it all, to put it way too simply. Anyways today an effective VSS/DSP such as SBX, starts with appearing as a 5 or 7 speaker audio device to Windows (or alternatively decoding a surround bitstream like Dolby Digital). I.e., Windows thinks the audio device is actually 5 speakers when really it is your headphones. Any game you then play in Windows will, if it supports surround sound, output all 5 or 7 channels. Then the DSP--either in an external/internal sound card, or a software solution on the PC-- takes the surround channels and outputs a 2 channel simulated surround sound using their generic HRTF. (Head related transfer function.) It's not difficult to outdo a headphone with multiple drivers using this technology, Google HRTF to see how it works. (It's a long read but interesting.) This is how most VSS operate today from Creative, Razer, Sennheiser, etc. Importantly, the recent update to Windows which purportedly added free Windows Sonic and a demo of Dolby Atmos for headphones does not yet work and seems to just generally have been bungled. You need a software solution either on a sound card or an external device. (Except for Razer but Razer surround sucks.)

Some games do still have their own headphone surround processing, like Overwatch and I think CS. For those games you don't need any other DSP, the game is providing its own, just plug your headphones in and enable the appropriate in game setting. I can't say how effective they are though as I have not tried them.

Does that make sense?

 

[lcpiper]

Yes, a DSP means Digital Signal Processor. For surround it can also be called a VSS or virtual surround sound.

Windows surround sound in headphones has changed since Vista and XP but it still exists and is still effective. I think it's just less reliant on the game having it's own 3d sound processing versus Windows dictating it all, to put it way too simply. Anyways today an effective VSS/DSP such as SBX, starts with appearing as a 5 or 7 speaker audio device to Windows (or alternatively decoding a surround bitstream like Dolby Digital). I.e., Windows thinks the audio device is actually 5 speakers when really it is your headphones. Any game you then play in Windows will, if it supports surround sound, output all 5 or 7 channels. Then the DSP--either in an external/internal sound card, or a software solution on the PC-- takes the surround channels and outputs a 2 channel simulated surround sound using their generic HRTF. (Head related transfer function.) It's not difficult to outdo a headphone with multiple drivers using this technology, Google HRTF to see how it works. (It's a long read but interesting.) This is how most VSS operate today from Creative, Razer, Sennheiser, etc. Importantly, the recent update to Windows which purportedly added free Windows Sonic and a demo of Dolby Atmos for headphones does not yet work and seems to just generally have been bungled. You need a software solution either on a sound card or an external device. (Except for Razer but Razer surround sucks.)

Some games do still have their own headphone surround processing, like Overwatch and I think CS. For those games you don't need any other DSP, the game is providing its own, just plug your headphones in and enable the appropriate in game setting. I can't say how effective they are though as I have not tried them.

Does that make sense?

But games didn't used to dictate or try and manage 3D sound at all in XP and before, it was DirectSound that did this and all the game had to do is make the right calls to the DirectSound and DirectSound sent the processed sound data to the drivers to be passed on to the hardware. After Windows Vista and the removal of the DirectSound API, that's when sound card manufacturers tried filling in the void that MS had created. And we got all kinds of different solutions offered, several failures, a couple that weren't bad at all, but they were proprietary solutions and if a game didn't support it, it didn't work. I don't even remember any of these stop-gap names but it was a crappy solution to the positional audio problem. I think it's this time frame that you are referencing. Post WinXP was a bad time for positional audio overall.

 

[illram]

Point is, there are headphone surround options now that work well, including any game that supports 5 or 7 discrete channels, without the need for a headphone with multiple drivers. My personal experience as I said is with SBX Pro Studio (available on the E5, X7, and I don't know which internal sound cards), which definitely offers good positional accuracy with minimal impact on audio quality and tons of customization options for the sound. (The SoundBlaster G5, for reasons unknown, uses "SoundBlaster X Acoustic Engine" surround which is NOT as good. I can't recommend that product. I have no idea why Creative uses two different software surround implementations.)

The other reasonably priced and readily available possibility is the Sennheiser GSX1000, which I have read has comparable surround quality. I have also heard people like Out Of Your Head software but I have not looked into that too much. So the state of the current market is that a decent VSS such as the above I mentioned + any decent stereo headphone offers superior audio quality and positional accuracy over any multiple driver surround "gamer" headphone on the market.

 

[lcpiper]

Point is, there are headphone surround options now that work well, including any game that supports 5 or 7 discrete channels, without the need for a headphone with multiple drivers. My personal experience as I said is with SBX Pro Studio (available on the E5, X7, and I don't know which internal sound cards), which definitely offers good positional accuracy with minimal impact on audio quality and tons of customization options for the sound. (The SoundBlaster G5, for reasons unknown, uses "SoundBlaster X Acoustic Engine" surround which is NOT as good. I can't recommend that product. I have no idea why Creative uses two different software surround implementations.)

The other reasonably priced and readily available possibility is the Sennheiser GSX1000, which I have read has comparable surround quality. I have also heard people like Out Of Your Head software but I have not looked into that too much. The state of the current market is that those two options + any decent stereo headphone offers superior audio quality and positional accuracy over any multiple driver surround "gamer" headphone on the market.

Of course, MS got rid of DirectSound so there is no middleware to drive them properly. I thought I got this acrossed earlier. And forgive my untrusting nature, but if you have never heard what used to be the best there ever was, how do you know these new solutions are even in the ball park?

See, when you say I need to get a Creative product that has SBX, this sounds exactly like a continuation of the same old situation where sound card manufacturers are forced to create their own solution to the surround sound problem. I suppose the big question is, will it support all games or only those that support SBX?