If Quake was made today..

Netrat33

Supreme [H]ardness
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Aug 6, 2004
Messages
4,894
Uh. no. Only reason why Quake was so special is because it was ground breaking in what it did for its time. Release it today and people would be bored to death. I tried to play again not to long ago and It's just BORING. Sorry. I love the soundtrack but I just didnt' care about anything in this game.

HOWEVER! Video is very funny. :D
 

stiltner

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This guy struck a cord with me. I shed a tear. Would watch again, two thumbs up with popcorn and a guy with no bottom jaw.
 

Numan

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Oct 6, 2004
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Sorry, those other games that are cited don't count. Wolfenstein3D was the first first person shooter. You can be pedantic all you want. And I am 40 years old, I was there when this was released, I had played it on a 386 with 2 megs of ram. Ah, the glory days.

Sorry to go off topic, actually off topic x 2 but Ultima Underworld came out before Wolfenstein did believe it or not, was either one year or some odd months and yes I realize it's not a shooter.

I apologize, but just remembering back to pulling all nighters in my dad's home office playing both the mentioned games. :D
 

LstBrunnenG

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Am I the only one who didn't think the video was in the least funny?

The opening titles: Movies are 2 hours long and have just about as many opening logos as your average game these days. Unacceptably short games are 3 times that long. I don't see the problem.

The lack of options: What game has come out lately where someone hasn't figured out how to mess with the settings in a config file? Consumers can genrally choose high/medium/low to make it run acceptably on their computer. Enthusiasts do what they always do and dig into the settings.

DLC: What, nobody remembers how Quake 3 needed an expansion to introduce team-based gameplay? As for cosmetic DLC, nobody is forcing you to buy horse armor.

Jarring hintscreens: Name one game that does this? Or for that matter, one that doesn't let you toggle in-game hints?

"Return to the combat zone!": Yes, since Quake had such massive, sprawling levels like BF2 or the other games that have done this. Things are a lot easier when you're making a corridor shooter...

Boss in a cage: Maybe the author of the video should stop playing Barbie Horse Adventures and try Dark/Demon's Souls.

And then to top it off, it ends with montage of some kiddie bunny hopping across levels like some kind of retarded jumping bean, and it's held up like it's the gold standard in video game design. Is anyone here actually pretending it would have been fun to play against him, unless you happen to be another 12-year-old with too much time on their hands? Is bunny-hopping and hunting for health packs really what we as a gaming community think is fun?

If we want to talk about gold standards, I nominate something like Counter-Strike. To me it's far less of a stretch to see something like CS evolve into something like CoD4.
 

Tobit

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - March 2010/May 2011
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Dec 12, 2005
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5,145
iD's last best game was the Commander Keen series. :p

However, I am not a hardcore gamer and I don't generally play FPS games as they, honestly, make me physically ill after a few minutes of play. I am also old and generally prefer the classic arcade style games. My last console was an Atari 2600 BTW. I still prefer the PC for gaming as I play mostly RPGs and MMORPGs.
 

Alchemic

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Feb 19, 2005
Messages
247
The opening titles: Movies are 2 hours long and have just about as many opening logos as your average game these days. Unacceptably short games are 3 times that long. I don't see the problem.

Games are not movies.

The lack of options: What game has come out lately where someone hasn't figured out how to mess with the settings in a config file? Consumers can genrally choose high/medium/low to make it run acceptably on their computer. Enthusiasts do what they always do and dig into the settings.

Since when are less options acceptable? Are you just thankful the game can even be played?

DLC: What, nobody remembers how Quake 3 needed an expansion to introduce team-based gameplay? As for cosmetic DLC, nobody is forcing you to buy horse armor.

There's a substantial difference between paying for a new gametype and paying for maps.

Jarring hintscreens: Name one game that does this? Or for that matter, one that doesn't let you toggle in-game hints?

Super Mario Brothers.

"Return to the combat zone!": Yes, since Quake had such massive, sprawling levels like BF2 or the other games that have done this. Things are a lot easier when you're making a corridor shooter...

You think BF2 is not a corridor shooter? :rolleyes:

Boss in a cage
If we want to talk about gold standards, I nominate something like Counter-Strike. To me it's far less of a stretch to see something like CS evolve into something like CoD4.

That was predictable.
 

Shalafi

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Am I the only one who didn't think the video was in the least funny?

Yes.

The opening titles: Movies are 2 hours long and have just about as many opening logos as your average game these days. Unacceptably short games are 3 times that long. I don't see the problem.

Some people have no problem paying top dollar for shit in a box, it's understandable, that's what happens when there is a personal lack of standards..

The lack of options: What game has come out lately where someone hasn't figured out how to mess with the settings in a config file? Consumers can genrally choose high/medium/low to make it run acceptably on their computer. Enthusiasts do what they always do and dig into the settings.

Used to be that those options were already in the menu for users to fiddle with painlessly. Sounds like you never played a real PC game before????

DLC: What, nobody remembers how Quake 3 needed an expansion to introduce team-based gameplay? As for cosmetic DLC, nobody is forcing you to buy horse armor.

Quake 3 is better than the vast majority of games released these days. Stop with the blasphemy.

Jarring hintscreens: Name one game that does this? Or for that matter, one that doesn't let you toggle in-game hints?

Just about every game released these days has hints or tips that you can toggle on and off. That you can toggle them isn't the point, it's just the fact they exist at all. It's to help the retarded mouthbreathers of the new generation of gamers who lack standards be able to use massive crutches to end up being 10 rungs below the average gamer instead of 50 rungs below.

"Return to the combat zone!": Yes, since Quake had such massive, sprawling levels like BF2 or the other games that have done this. Things are a lot easier when you're making a corridor shooter...

That's kind of a good point, but the real reason for bringing it up is the fact that the sandbox is artificial in games like BF2, and it breaks immersion. Quake and the like covered that up by killing you if you exited the area beyond a certain point, OR they made it so you cant' go there at all, no warning. You'd learn through trial and error.

Boss in a cage: Maybe the author of the video should stop playing Barbie Horse Adventures and try Dark/Demon's Souls.

And then to top it off, it ends with montage of some kiddie bunny hopping across levels like some kind of retarded jumping bean, and it's held up like it's the gold standard in video game design. Is anyone here actually pretending it would have been fun to play against him, unless you happen to be another 12-year-old with too much time on their hands? Is bunny-hopping and hunting for health packs really what we as a gaming community think is fun?

Well shit son, you just got a lesson in what real skills consist of, let me give you a hint, it isn't anything you do or have done, or would be able to do in Call of Derpy or Battleshit 3. Quake is a real twitch based game, it isn't the gold standard, it's the motherfuckin platinum standard. When I say you, I'm referring to the fact that players cant' exhibit skills like that in games like BF3 or CoD because they have been dumbed down that severely. Cover system, watch your health bar refill. Yawn inducing gameplay. Running around, dodging rockets, with 10 health left, trying your damnest to reach the armor powerup and a health kit while 5 others are chasing your ass = epitome of skill.

If we want to talk about gold standards, I nominate something like Counter-Strike. To me it's far less of a stretch to see something like CS evolve into something like CoD4.

No.

Answered, and I firmly condemn your post. It puzzles me why anybody would want and support regression instead of progression.

We need games that actually challenge us and kick our asses.
 
Last edited:

DisrupTer911

[H]ard|Gawd
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Oct 14, 2004
Messages
1,193
Am I the only one who didn't think the video was in the least funny?

The opening titles: Movies are 2 hours long and have just about as many opening logos as your average game these days. Unacceptably short games are 3 times that long. I don't see the problem.

The lack of options: What game has come out lately where someone hasn't figured out how to mess with the settings in a config file? Consumers can genrally choose high/medium/low to make it run acceptably on their computer. Enthusiasts do what they always do and dig into the settings.

DLC: What, nobody remembers how Quake 3 needed an expansion to introduce team-based gameplay? As for cosmetic DLC, nobody is forcing you to buy horse armor.

Jarring hintscreens: Name one game that does this? Or for that matter, one that doesn't let you toggle in-game hints?

"Return to the combat zone!": Yes, since Quake had such massive, sprawling levels like BF2 or the other games that have done this. Things are a lot easier when you're making a corridor shooter...

Boss in a cage: Maybe the author of the video should stop playing Barbie Horse Adventures and try Dark/Demon's Souls.

And then to top it off, it ends with montage of some kiddie bunny hopping across levels like some kind of retarded jumping bean, and it's held up like it's the gold standard in video game design. Is anyone here actually pretending it would have been fun to play against him, unless you happen to be another 12-year-old with too much time on their hands? Is bunny-hopping and hunting for health packs really what we as a gaming community think is fun?

If we want to talk about gold standards, I nominate something like Counter-Strike. To me it's far less of a stretch to see something like CS evolve into something like CoD4.

Spoken like someone who grew up in the COD era and wasn't playing quake in the schools computer lab instead of doing their homework lol

I'm trying to think of what in Q3 you had to pay for in terms of team based gameplay and I can't.
Rocket Arena was free. and it came with Team Deathmatch, DM, and CTF...
 

thedintedcan

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Messages
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Team Arena was like a completely new game, not three levels that should have been in the original release, or free with a path. Or better yet, made by the community with the INCLUDED MOD TOOLS :O
 

Xenomaniac

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Messages
1,592
I remember in High School in our Electronics Media Class (3D modeling/animation, Photoshop) when we had finals, we installed Quake 3 demo on all the computers including the newspaper room across the hall and just play deathmatch all day. Oh epic times will be epic.
 

Frog2

Gawd
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
551
This.

Majority of dumbing down in todays fpses comes from lack of precision of gamepads.

I reinstalled Q4 due to this vid, and the shooting precision in that is incredible, GFX are also quite beautiful and no texture pop.
 

heelix

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Joined
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Messages
1,078
The no-skip 'foo productions' at the start of the game get old really fast. The first time in, I usually watch everything. The 20th time you start the game... gah. God forbid someone let you press escape rather than see all of the marketing material.
 

Gigantism

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Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
585
Am I the only one who didn't think the video was in the least funny?

The opening titles: Movies are 2 hours long and have just about as many opening logos as your average game these days. Unacceptably short games are 3 times that long. I don't see the problem.

The lack of options: What game has come out lately where someone hasn't figured out how to mess with the settings in a config file? Consumers can genrally choose high/medium/low to make it run acceptably on their computer. Enthusiasts do what they always do and dig into the settings.

DLC: What, nobody remembers how Quake 3 needed an expansion to introduce team-based gameplay? As for cosmetic DLC, nobody is forcing you to buy horse armor.

Jarring hintscreens: Name one game that does this? Or for that matter, one that doesn't let you toggle in-game hints?

"Return to the combat zone!": Yes, since Quake had such massive, sprawling levels like BF2 or the other games that have done this. Things are a lot easier when you're making a corridor shooter...

Boss in a cage: Maybe the author of the video should stop playing Barbie Horse Adventures and try Dark/Demon's Souls.

And then to top it off, it ends with montage of some kiddie bunny hopping across levels like some kind of retarded jumping bean, and it's held up like it's the gold standard in video game design. Is anyone here actually pretending it would have been fun to play against him, unless you happen to be another 12-year-old with too much time on their hands? Is bunny-hopping and hunting for health packs really what we as a gaming community think is fun?

If we want to talk about gold standards, I nominate something like Counter-Strike. To me it's far less of a stretch to see something like CS evolve into something like CoD4.

The bunny hopping you refer to is called "Strafe Jumping".

This sounds to me like you are 15 and see nothing wrong with today's PC gaming scene because you don't know better...
 

collegeboy69us

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Jul 27, 2003
Messages
5,256
Uh. no. Only reason why Quake was so special is because it was ground breaking in what it did for its time. Release it today and people would be bored to death. I tried to play again not to long ago and It's just BORING. Sorry. I love the soundtrack but I just didnt' care about anything in this game.

HOWEVER! Video is very funny. :D

The reason "Quake" wouldn't fly today is because gamers (and by that I mean mostly young kids) have gotten so used to the game damn near playing itself these days.

Gone are the days of having to fucking THINK to solve a problem. Being given a problem and having to do the work and experiment yourself. Not the "click here for a tip", "click here for a video walkthrough"

Pretty sad to be honest that stead of a frantic and crazy sequence to defuse a bomb in BF3 - now its "right click, space bar, x,y,x" how depressing.

And that is part of the reason our country is circling the toilet -- instead of saying "here figure it out and have fun" everything is "how can we help you get through this problem so you feel good about yourself" You would be surprised how this idea can transfer so easily into multiple sectors of our economy and country.
 

chockomonkey

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Messages
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^^ LOL I was just playing Worms Reloaded, and thought i'd give the tutorial a try upon launching the game. (who knows what new mechanics they added?)

It seriously was the stupidest tutorial i've ever seen, with the worst hand-holding ever. They'd tell me to pick a new gun, and before i could even TRY to figure it out, the game stopped and would say "Here before you try, let me show you how," and made me watch a bot do it. It did this for every gun i picked, even after i'd proven i know how to shoot a target... i alt-f4'd... Maybe some other day when i have more patience, i won't get so ticked off at a game treating me like a fucking retard.
 

Domingo

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In my day we had to walk to school uphill both ways through 24 feet of snow, raging rivers, and a haunted swamp!
And instead of having one button wisely do multiple things, we had to map the whole keyboard to even hope to play anything!
Want a crosshair? We chipped our monitors in the right spot for every game!
Want a game to run right? We had to buy a whole brand new video card just to make games look decent...and we had to modify 23 files and shut down every process on our machines AND WE LIKED IT!
 

syncore

Limp Gawd
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Messages
149
The bunny hopping you refer to is called "Strafe Jumping".

This sounds to me like you are 15 and see nothing wrong with today's PC gaming scene because you don't know better...

Ding ding ding... It's always amusing to see these children on here who've never had the coordination to do something like rocket jumping or strafe jumping... rofl "bunny hopping." This guy should go back to hiding behind crates for 15 minutes at a time, waiting for the enemy to peek out.
 

chockomonkey

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Messages
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Ding ding ding... It's always amusing to see these children on here who've never had the coordination to do something like rocket jumping or strafe jumping... rofl "bunny hopping." This guy should go back to hiding behind crates for 15 minutes at a time, waiting for the enemy to peek out.

by the way, LstOfTheBrunnenG, if you're still in here reading, you should know that strafe-jumping is fucking hard.

I spent hours trying to figure it out in the Quake Live tutorial, could never jump to the end :(
 

TwistedAegis

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In my day we had to walk to school uphill both ways through 24 feet of snow, raging rivers, and a haunted swamp!
And instead of having one button wisely do multiple things, we had to map the whole keyboard to even hope to play anything!
Want a crosshair? We chipped our monitors in the right spot for every game!
Want a game to run right? We had to buy a whole brand new video card just to make games look decent...and we had to modify 23 files and shut down every process on our machines AND WE LIKED IT!

Amen man, amen. :)
 
Joined
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ah quake miss the days of awesome frag matches where all that mattered was simply moving around like a rabbit on speed rocket jumping up and then raining death down on those below. good times.
 

ZimCoe

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first few mins BF3 campaign. Find myself on the side of the train being told to hit the space bar? What good will this do? why can't I jump back in through the window bounce someone out the train with a rocket switch to sniper and headshot them before they go outa LoS...?
 

blackrose

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Messages
339
The 2 videos... sad but I share the same feelings.

What I wouldn't give for some fast-paced ctf or deathmatch action again (quake2/3/ra, tf, tfc, whatever).
 

Netrat33

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Messages
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The reason "Quake" wouldn't fly today is because gamers (and by that I mean mostly young kids) have gotten so used to the game damn near playing itself these days.
This is false. The generation of gamers who loved Quake didn't just suddenly die. They are primarly the people purchasing games.

Gone are the days of having to fucking THINK to solve a problem. Being given a problem and having to do the work and experiment yourself. Not the "click here for a tip", "click here for a video walkthrough"
I'll never stop laughing at how this bothers gamers for introduction to game.

And that is part of the reason our country is circling the toilet -- instead of saying "here figure it out and have fun" everything is "how can we help you get through this problem so you feel good about yourself" You would be surprised how this idea can transfer so easily into multiple sectors of our economy and country.
*facepalm* wow dude. It's a video game. Not a reflection of the state of country.
 

Tudz

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If Quake were made today I wouldn't give a shit just like I didn't give a shit when Quake was around over 10 years ago.
 

LstBrunnenG

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Messages
6,677
The bunny hopping you refer to is called "Strafe Jumping".
Okay? Whatever you call it, you'd still look like a retard if you tried to do that in CS. It's an unrealistic and annoying tactic.

This sounds to me like you are 15 and see nothing wrong with today's PC gaming scene because you don't know better...
And the reason you are so busy raging is because you live in your mom's basement. Playing video games 80 hours a week doesn't make you a god among men in multiplayer like it used to, because any cheap noob with a grenade launcher can stop you in your bunny-hopping tracks.

Oh, sorry, I thought this was an asinine assumptions contest and not a rational debate. My bad.

Spoken like someone who grew up in the COD era and wasn't playing quake in the schools computer lab instead of doing their homework lol
See above. For the record, I was around for Descent.

I'm trying to think of what in Q3 you had to pay for in terms of team based gameplay and I can't.
Rocket Arena was free. and it came with Team Deathmatch, DM, and CTF...
People criticized it for offering low value for your money precisely because of free mods like rocket arena. Just like people criticize DLC today for offering low value.

Expansions have always been hit or miss between the truly worthwhile ones and the money grabs. Same with sequels - Descent II was started as an expansion, and ended up being a sequel with very minor engine enhancements. Shovelware is not a new invention. Nor is it always bad.

Games are not movies.
No, but a lot of them wish they were. Hence the similar methods of introducing producers and developers.

Since when are less options acceptable? Are you just thankful the game can even be played?
That wasn't my point. My points were
  1. That video exaggerated to the point of absurdity, and
  2. Additional functionality has ALWAYS been exposed through console commands and config files. Is there really anyone here who calls themselves [H] who can figure out how to assemble a working system but can't figure out a config file? The functionality is still there for the enthusiast, exactly where it's always been. A streamlined set of options means better ease-of-use for the non-enthusiasts among us, more sales, and more money for the next game. What is this, a big case of hipster "I liked video games when they weren't accessible/were underground!" whining?

There's a substantial difference between paying for a new gametype and paying for maps.
Don't want 'em, don't buy 'em. Nobody put a gun to your head.

Super Mario Brothers.
I wouldn't know. I bought my first consoles this year. I certainly never got things that annoying when playing Descent or Dark Forces. It was more "Here's a gun, good luck!"

You think BF2 is not a corridor shooter? :rolleyes:
Okay, you got me. Please explain to me how a giant, wide-open map like Wake Island is a corridor.

That was predictable.
You want to play twitchy arena games, fine. I like my games like CS and TF2, where quick tactical thinking is every bit as important (and sometimes more!) as twitch reflexes.

Some people have no problem paying top dollar for shit in a box, it's understandable, that's what happens when there is a personal lack of standards..
Developer logos make games shit in a box? Put your money where your mouth is and return DX:HR. I know I've seen you praising that game before, but apparently it's beneath you now.

Used to be that those options were already in the menu for users to fiddle with painlessly.
Not all the options; see above. g_saberrealisticcombat 99, mmmmmmmmm!

Sounds like you never played a real PC game before????
Sounds like you never modded a real PC game before????

Quake 3 is better than the vast majority of games released these days. Stop with the blasphemy.
And yet a game like Counter-Strike has 14 times as many players still playing. I never said Quake III was a crappy game, I said it wasn't fun for me anymore. Yet I can still fire up CS:S and have a good time.

I think CS and Starcraft are much better candidates for any PC gaming gold standard than Quake III. Both continue to attract strong player counts despite being ancient by technology standards.

Just about every game released these days has hints or tips that you can toggle on and off. That you can toggle them isn't the point, it's just the fact they exist at all. It's to help the retarded mouthbreathers of the new generation of gamers who lack standards be able to use massive crutches to end up being 10 rungs below the average gamer instead of 50 rungs below.
The arrogance and elitism of this part of your post leaves me speechless.

That's kind of a good point, but the real reason for bringing it up is the fact that the sandbox is artificial in games like BF2, and it breaks immersion. Quake and the like covered that up by killing you if you exited the area beyond a certain point, OR they made it so you cant' go there at all, no warning. You'd learn through trial and error.
Are you actually trying to tell me that instadeath for stepping on a random sand dune would be less frustrating and less damaging to immersion than a warning?

Sometimes it's better to concede a point than to argue it just because.

Well shit son, you just got a lesson in what real skills consist of, let me give you a hint, it isn't anything you do or have done, or would be able to do in Call of Derpy or Battleshit 3. Quake is a real twitch based game, it isn't the gold standard, it's the motherfuckin platinum standard.
Of twitch games. Which no longer appeal to me.

When I say you, I'm referring to the fact that players cant' exhibit skills like that in games like BF3 or CoD because they have been dumbed down that severely.
Saying BF3 or CoD is a dumbed down Quake III is like saying Civilization is a dumbed down Command and Conquer. They may both say 'Strategy' or 'FPS' on the tin, but they're not the same type of game by any stretch of the imagination.

Cover system, watch your health bar refill. Yawn inducing gameplay. Running around, dodging rockets, with 10 health left, trying your damnest to reach the armor powerup and a health kit while 5 others are chasing your ass = epitome of skill.
I'd rather play a game with a recharging health mechanic that encouraged realistic use of cover than a game that encourages camping of health pack spawn points.

Answered, and I firmly condemn your post. It puzzles me why anybody would want and support regression instead of progression.
Who here is supporting regression? I'm just calling a whiny, over-the-top video that's white-washing the past for what it is.

We need games that actually challenge us and kick our asses.
Did you not see the Demon's Souls reference in my original post?
 

Radical

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750
Okay? Whatever you call it, you'd still look like a retard if you tried to do that in CS. It's an unrealistic and annoying tactic.

You realize you used to be able to do it in CS, right? And if you're gonna complain about the realism....there's a lot of other shit that you should be complaining about too. Strafe jumping is probably the MOST realistic thing you can do in Q3.
 

rudy

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There was Game Genie and a few others.

LOL how could anyone forget, and what was worse was they sold this thing in regular gaming stores. It like what if you went into gamestop and they were like we got some aim botz here for you and you get a 5% discount if you bundle with BF3.
 

Mozex

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LOL how could anyone forget, and what was worse was they sold this thing in regular gaming stores. It like what if you went into gamestop and they were like we got some aim botz here for you and you get a 5% discount if you bundle with BF3.

Since these games were not online I don't think anybody really cared. If you were hardcore you didn't use them.
 

rudy

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Messages
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I think that this thread kinda points out why old school DM died. I liked the video but I felt like they may have attacked somethings that were progress. I sort of watched it and believed what I wanted to believe the authors point was, sort of like we all interpret art in our own self serving way. But when I think about it and watch it again read comments here I realize that well we were old and stubborn and unwilling to adapt or compromise and in the end no one was willing to make games for us anymore because of that.

Just being thrown into a game and figuring it out happens a whole lot less than what most of you would admit. If most of you looked back and honestly said you figured out how to strafe jump all on your own I would say you have a point. But most of you did not you were taught it by a video or a friend in the game. I know because I have personally been taught how to do it and I have taught hundreds of players. And I have never met a single person who just figured it out all on their own. So there are a select few very smart guys who really figure things out in games. But my made up and probably accurate statistic says that 99.9% of people were shown how to do it. So I think that gaming has evolved in a positive light now, in that developers actually take the time to show you how to do things that you would otherwise have to wait to learn until you met someone who knew or you would need to observe someone else.

Also strafe jumping is not what made Quake great it was the fast pace and variability in individual skill. That could have come in some other form of movement. Unreal is a good example where it could still be good in 2k3/4 with alternative movement.

Also not all the DM players were all about the skill, I mean even in the fast paced DM games we always had the players seaking less skill. There was instagib which basically made DM like BF where the first one to see someone almost always won. There was low gravity, there were killbox or very simple map servers where everything was sort of really big. There were tons of mods which gave people massive amounts of weapons and ammo so map control was not needed. And if you add all those up perhaps the majority of players actually played those game types and not the hard core stock game which required so many different skills. It would be no surprise that those players easily moved to newer realistic games which had similar attributes.

Second I find it funny how now days CS is considered one of the good old games. Back when I played we considered CS the game that started this whole down hill trend. It was the precursor to COD, BF, DOD that showed that most people wanted more realism, and a whole lot less fast paced gaming and skill than the fast DM games of the time like Quake, Unreal, Half-Life. They wanted simple weapons which all acted the same so they did not have to learn radically different ways to use them. Then what happened is CS got beat at its own game of realism and simplicity. Suddenly all the CS fans who used to flip their middle fingers to all us old school DM players and call us jealous were joining our side in arguements. Kinda funny how it all works out in the end. I personally have not forgotten how noob CS was and IS.

I suppose I could talk about it for hours, I have modded and made games and ran into this ultra stubborn personality that held DM back and eventually killed the community. One time I tried to change a clip on a gun that started half full, to full by default. And people seriously argued for hours about that. It was going to ruin the balance of the game. That one little change. That was when I knew you had no chance getting these old stubborn players to like anything except something that was so different they would have no preconcieved notions about how it should work. And the funny thing is most of those clowns are now playing COD. Cause they got nothing else to play.
 
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